I have to agree with you, marsha7. Because, don't forget, the Mercedes M Class plant is in Alabama, and that car has been crap for years, and dragged the whole brand down in quality vs. the ones made in Germany.
Another case: The Nissan Titan is made in Missouri, I believe? They have had a ton of problems with that car too!
So the argument that American workers build excellent cars for foreign marques is not always true. When they do, like for Honda, the absence of the UAW seems to play a big part in their success, doesn't it?
Just saw an article in the Detroit News. Didn't get a chance to read the article, but it looked like Atlanta plant is getting a reprieve. Apparently Atlanta made a good case for Ford to keep it open.
Wixom, in your Free Press article looks to be spared, too.
We won't know the final answer until January. As bad as Ford's sales are, I can not possibly see keeping both Wixom and Atlanta open.
I am very pessimistic about Ford. I think Ford should close both Wixom and Atlanta and built the new Lincoln sedans at Chicago, along with the 500 and Montego. Does anyone really think that big FWD/AWD sedans are going to boost Lincoln?
Many posters at the various message boards are angry about the latest issue of Motor Trend giving car of the year to the Honda Civic. But MT basically had little good to say about most of the Ford and GM contenders for COTY. Reading those comments doesn't make one optisimistic about Ford and GM's prospects.
I liked the last paragraph of Angus McKenzie's column: "So, Bill, here's the bottom line: Close the plants your market share can't sustain, bring the healthcare costs under control, and tighten the corporate belt. But don't hack away at the product design, engineering, and development budgets. You're in the business of making cars and trucks. And good ones don't come cheap."
My brother just bought a loaded Crown Vic sedan-14000 miles, off lease. He paid about $14.7 K-and the car is prstine. The 4.2 liter OHC V-8 is one of the best V-8s in the world-it puts M-B to shame. And the platfoem has been made so long, all the bugs are out. Think about it-for haldf of what you would pay for a new Sonata, you get an excellent, proven design..and he gets 30.5 MPG on thre highway!
It's hard to beat the value in a used Crown Vic these days. They've been perfecting that car since 1979, and they do have it about right by now. They're nimble to drive, fuel efficient (but it's a 4.6L motor, not a 4.2L I believe, unless they're sneaking their 6 in there. I'm not aware of that.), and can pack a whole trunkload of cash in the boot.
Those poor union workers: I have worked in 3 different industries, and visited many plants - the worst performers are always the union plants ! That's a fact !!! Where else in the world, do uneducated folk make $25+ /hr and get awesome benefits? It's time for America to wake up from this nightmare and realize that we are NOT competitive any more. Our trade deficit is growing like a tumor, and the reason is: we pay top dollar for manual labor - when the rest of the world does not. In order to become more successful all US car manufacturers have to get rid of the unions ASAP.
In construction, union workers are quite a bit more productive. I have a lot of problems with how they're run and some of the demands they make, but they have good training programs and a higher percentage of competent workers. The trades are not jobs that "just anybody" can do well. (There do need to be changes though, obviously.)
Anyway about Ford. They've caved in to the AFA's (American Family Association) demands that Ford companies (except Volvo) stop advertising in gay media. Kinda shows how desperate Ford is.
"The antigay American Family Association claimed a cultural victory on Thursday and called off its threatened boycott of Ford Motor Co. On Friday, Ford spokesman Mike Moran confirmed to Advocate.com that the company will stop advertising its Jaguar and Land Rover brands in gay publications but insisted it was strictly a business decision. "
"Well yeah, Varmint! Look at Lincoln's lineup, and their plight is obvious. No performance car..."
Sorry about the late response.
Where is the performance icon in the Mercury line-up? Marauder was the last, AFAIK.
All I'm saying is that ditching Mercury to save Lincoln (as was suggested earlier) might not be the best move. Mercury's current progress might be short-lived. It might simply be a model cycle thing. It might be that cute brunette they have as their spokesmodel. I dunno...
It just looks like Mercury has some momentum and Lincoln doesn't.
I would think that the potential purchasing power of the gay community would decide whether or not it was worthwhile to advertise to them as a group...Ford should not care who buys their cars, and if gay folks have the $$$ then go after them...
Now, if their feedback research shows them that gay folks do not buy Ford, then pull the advertising...no one should be forced to spend money where they believe they will not receive a decent return...economics rules...NO, positive cash flow rules...
I'd like to think gay guys are smart enough to keep away from Jags and Rovers
Something tells me a gay boycott of a firm could cause more damage than a boycott from a questionable at best group such as AFA, but that's just me. I'd rather tick off the smaller group.
No, it's actually less than 5%, they just want you to think it's 10% for civil liberties. Even though most studies aren't completely accurate, take look at some of the personnel demographics of the top companies in the US. They will actually show closer to around 3%. Most of these companies have benefits for same sex partners based on around 3% of their workforce.
Also, homosexuals read Time, Newsweek, Wall Street Journal, USA Today, etc. By advertising in these publications, you will get their attention.
Or they could just start ignoring the state of Florida, which is also roughly 5% of the population.
BTW, wouldn't your corporate stats (based on benefits) only include partnered gays and ignore all the singles? Even then the numbers would only include one half of the couple. Or am I missing something?
Anyway, this whole thing makes Ford look mighty weak. I wonder if psycho AFA members make up 5% of the population...I doubt it. I do have to wonder which boycott could make more of an impact.
Actually, from what I've seen, most homosexuals register, as in Fords case through GLOBE, their gay and lesbian organization, so the stats are based on that information.
I guess my point about the 5% is that Ford may be able to capture these buyers through normal advertising channels rather than a specific homosexual publication. As in the case of Floridians, Ford doesn't necessarily advertise in Florida papers and magazines only. They will capture that population through other national media.
that my 2004 Crown Vic LX Sport could break 22 mpg on highway...can the "sport" rear end take away that much???
I'm not positive, but I think the "sport" rear end has a ratio of something like 3.55:1 I'm not sure what the stock rear is, but at one time it was something fairly tall like a 2.73:1.
Now in a mix of driving, I don't think it would make much difference because the engine is going to pick whatever revs it's happy at, regardless of what gear that happens to be. But out on long highway stretches, that's where you'll probably notice a difference, simply because the 3.55 is making the engine rev faster than it really needs to.
I have an old Consumer Guide from 1985 that tests a Crown Vic with the 3.55, and a Grand Marquis with the taller ratio. Now that I think about it, it might've been a 3.08 and not a 2.73. Anyway, in mixed driving, the Crown Vic actually got better fuel economy, and gave much better peformance!
If you get the "sport" rear end, does that also give you a dual exhaust? Way back in 1985, Ford gave you an option package for something like $227 that included the quicker axle, dual exhaust, better rims and tires, and stiffer shocks. Seemed like a heckuva lot for the money!
I hadn't read about the Jaguar and LR thing, but Ford is still having Volvo advertise in the Advocate, so if they were really caving into the AFA (a horrid little group, IMHO), they would have pulled that too.
"If you get the 'sport' rear end, does that also give you a dual exhaust?"
I believe so. Also get a slightly more powerful SOHC 4.6 (rated at 235 hp I think...I can't understand why they just can't give you even the previous-gen Mustang's 4.6, which is rated at 260 hp)
Well, I left the Intrepid site and here you are!!!
The sport package is the performance rear end (that apparently takes away from 5-10 mpg, depending on who posts what), floor shifter (I love floor shifters), dual exhaust, 239 HP instead of 225 (big whoop, why not the 292 HP 4.6L now in the Explorer?), air suspension in rear, and I think that is all...
It could just be that Darrel Hazel, new President at Ford, is going down a different marketing path, putting his scarce advertising dollars where it will pay the biggest dividends, and highlighting cars that he can sell profitably? Couldn't it? Maybe it's not a political statement at all. I didn't read that Hazel (an African American) is diverting all of those ads over to Ebony - it could just be a good business decision by a wise manager whose job it is to turn Ford around. Doesn't matter who claims victory or responsibility for something. That doesn't make anything true.
it failed to introduce an award winning car with the Fusion and the 500. Both are great cars, but seem to come short in the power department. The lack of power alone is responsible for these cars not capturing 1st place in any comparo run by any car magazine. All Ford needed is a #1 and an award of some kind, to help them market the car. Just look what Nissan is doing with the Xterra and Kia is doing with Amanti. They are both using the awards (as insignificant as they might be)to their advantage. And people are eating it up! Ford failed to put the right engine in the Fusion and the Five hundred. The same goes for the Mercury and Lincoln siblings. Number one complaint about the 500 and the Fusion - LACK OF POWER. I don't think that the 300c would have made it as good as it did without the 340 HP Hemi. Ford blew it again. And now GM and Ford are asking the Fed to bail them out; - another sign of them going down.
Every car introduced does not have to be award-winning for it be a success. There were quite a few other cars that didn't win, that will do just fine in the marketplace.
There is nothing wrong with the power of the Fusion, in fact, Car and Driver chose it over the Hyundai Sonata and Toyota Camry in their comparo test. Not everyone wants a car that blows the doors off the next guy. I drove a Montego AWD for a year and although not a speed machine, I thought it performed nicely for a family sedan.
GM and Ford are not asking the Fed to "bail them out". That is media hype. Where do you think the japanese companies got the money to build their technologies that are giving domestics their current headaches? The japanese government. All they are asking for is a leveling of the playing field in technology and alternative fuel research.
"Every car introduced does not have to be award-winning for it be a success. There were quite a few other cars that didn't win, that will do just fine in the marketplace. "
And you expect Ford to steal sales from Hoyonda by being just mediocre? Your Montego has performed nicely for you, for me it's too slow, I need faster, more exiting car - so I look elsewhere. Ford needs better than average cars, to appeal to a broader range of customers.
Is it true thta the Jag division has been a money lkoser for FORD? i can understand wanting a prestige brand, but cruel economics distates that FORD get rid of losers. Given the limited market size (for the kind of cars Jaguar builds), does it make sense for Ford to keep jaguar? It would be a shame, because I can't imagine Jaguar surviving for long on its own-the luxury car market is getting very competitive, and small marques like Jag need rich uncles.
The "losing" cars are by no means average or mediocre in my opinion. The majority of auto writers will tell you that very few automobile companies, right now, are putting out garbage. There are a lot of good vehicles to choose from. Some are better than others.
But in general, the point is a good one. The trend at Ford has been a lack of trickle down from Jag to the other brands, but rather a "trickle up" whereby Jags got cheapened with excessive use of stuff from the Ford parts bin (including whole platforms and then some).
The way Ford has benefitted from PAG has been trickle down from Volvo instead, and that is a good enough reason to hang onto Volvo for a while even if it is having an off year.
I have said it before and I will say it again: Land Rover and Jag need to GO! Sell them first chance you get, Ford.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Where is your faster car exiting to? I can't imagine anyone in the USA needing more power. Maybe in Germany, but I can cruise all day at 85-90 mph and still have lots of acceleration if needed. On the rare occasion when no one is ahead of me at the light, I always come out first. All this in a Freestyle Limited AWD that is several hundred pounds heavier than the cars you are talking about. Do you really need more than that? Why? IMHO this 500/M/F line is the answer to a large percentage of the new car buyers needs. My hotrods of the past were lots of fun, not very practical and definitely unsafe. As Lee I. said, find me a safer car and I'll buy it.
Comments
At least they're build a new Ranger.
DrFill
Another case: The Nissan Titan is made in Missouri, I believe? They have had a ton of problems with that car too!
So the argument that American workers build excellent cars for foreign marques is not always true. When they do, like for Honda, the absence of the UAW seems to play a big part in their success, doesn't it?
Wixom, in your Free Press article looks to be spared, too.
We won't know the final answer until January. As bad as Ford's sales are, I can not possibly see keeping both Wixom and Atlanta open.
I am very pessimistic about Ford. I think Ford should close both Wixom and Atlanta and built the new Lincoln sedans at Chicago, along with the 500 and Montego. Does anyone really think that big FWD/AWD sedans are going to boost Lincoln?
Many posters at the various message boards are angry about the latest issue of Motor Trend giving car of the year to the Honda Civic. But MT basically had little good to say about most of the Ford and GM contenders for COTY. Reading those comments doesn't make one optisimistic about Ford and GM's prospects.
I liked the last paragraph of Angus McKenzie's column: "So, Bill, here's the bottom line: Close the plants your market share can't sustain, bring the healthcare costs under control, and tighten the corporate belt. But don't hack away at the product design, engineering, and development budgets. You're in the business of making cars and trucks. And good ones don't come cheap."
But is anyone dissing the CV? It is what it is. Durability is its trump card.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Same goes for a Grand Marquis and
Town Car.
I have worked in 3 different industries, and visited many plants - the worst performers are always the union plants !
That's a fact !!!
Where else in the world, do uneducated folk make $25+ /hr and get awesome benefits? It's time for America to wake up from this nightmare and realize that we are NOT competitive any more. Our trade deficit is growing like a tumor, and the reason is: we pay top dollar for manual labor - when the rest of the world does not.
In order to become more successful all US car manufacturers have to get rid of the unions ASAP.
Anyway about Ford. They've caved in to the AFA's (American Family Association) demands that Ford companies (except Volvo) stop advertising in gay media. Kinda shows how desperate Ford is.
"The antigay American Family Association claimed a cultural victory on Thursday and called off its threatened boycott of Ford Motor Co. On Friday, Ford spokesman Mike Moran confirmed to Advocate.com that the company will stop advertising its Jaguar and Land Rover brands in gay publications but insisted it was strictly a business decision. "
Not as big as I thought, actually.
Sorry about the late response.
Where is the performance icon in the Mercury line-up? Marauder was the last, AFAIK.
All I'm saying is that ditching Mercury to save Lincoln (as was suggested earlier) might not be the best move. Mercury's current progress might be short-lived. It might simply be a model cycle thing. It might be that cute brunette they have as their spokesmodel. I dunno...
It just looks like Mercury has some momentum and Lincoln doesn't.
Now, if their feedback research shows them that gay folks do not buy Ford, then pull the advertising...no one should be forced to spend money where they believe they will not receive a decent return...economics rules...NO, positive cash flow rules...
Something tells me a gay boycott of a firm could cause more damage than a boycott from a questionable at best group such as AFA, but that's just me. I'd rather tick off the smaller group.
It's more like 10% of the population!
Also, homosexuals read Time, Newsweek, Wall Street Journal, USA Today, etc. By advertising in these publications, you will get their attention.
BTW, wouldn't your corporate stats (based on benefits) only include partnered gays and ignore all the singles? Even then the numbers would only include one half of the couple. Or am I missing something?
Anyway, this whole thing makes Ford look mighty weak. I wonder if psycho AFA members make up 5% of the population...I doubt it. I do have to wonder which boycott could make more of an impact.
I guess my point about the 5% is that Ford may be able to capture these buyers through normal advertising channels rather than a specific homosexual publication. As in the case of Floridians, Ford doesn't necessarily advertise in Florida papers and magazines only. They will capture that population through other national media.
I'm not positive, but I think the "sport" rear end has a ratio of something like 3.55:1 I'm not sure what the stock rear is, but at one time it was something fairly tall like a 2.73:1.
Now in a mix of driving, I don't think it would make much difference because the engine is going to pick whatever revs it's happy at, regardless of what gear that happens to be. But out on long highway stretches, that's where you'll probably notice a difference, simply because the 3.55 is making the engine rev faster than it really needs to.
I have an old Consumer Guide from 1985 that tests a Crown Vic with the 3.55, and a Grand Marquis with the taller ratio. Now that I think about it, it might've been a 3.08 and not a 2.73. Anyway, in mixed driving, the Crown Vic actually got better fuel economy, and gave much better peformance!
If you get the "sport" rear end, does that also give you a dual exhaust? Way back in 1985, Ford gave you an option package for something like $227 that included the quicker axle, dual exhaust, better rims and tires, and stiffer shocks. Seemed like a heckuva lot for the money!
5% may seem like a small number, but Nissan's monumental, market-shaking rise back into the limelight equates to about a 3% gain.
I think Ford needs to reach all the people they can.
I believe so. Also get a slightly more powerful SOHC 4.6 (rated at 235 hp I think...I can't understand why they just can't give you even the previous-gen Mustang's 4.6, which is rated at 260 hp)
E.g. see
http://www.askaprice.com/torque-article.asp?article=Jaguar_to_become_French?&item=743
What Jaguar platforms and technology has Ford benefited from anyway?
Let's move on please.
The sport package is the performance rear end (that apparently takes away from 5-10 mpg, depending on who posts what), floor shifter (I love floor shifters), dual exhaust, 239 HP instead of 225 (big whoop, why not the 292 HP 4.6L now in the Explorer?), air suspension in rear, and I think that is all...
Bob
Both are great cars, but seem to come short in the power department. The lack of power alone is responsible for these cars not capturing 1st place in any comparo run by any car magazine.
All Ford needed is a #1 and an award of some kind, to help them market the car. Just look what Nissan is doing with the Xterra and Kia is doing with Amanti. They are both using the awards (as insignificant as they might be)to their advantage. And people are eating it up! Ford failed to put the right engine in the Fusion and the Five hundred.
The same goes for the Mercury and Lincoln siblings.
Number one complaint about the 500 and the Fusion - LACK OF POWER. I don't think that the 300c would have made it as good as it did without the 340 HP Hemi.
Ford blew it again.
And now GM and Ford are asking the Fed to bail them out; - another sign of them going down.
There is nothing wrong with the power of the Fusion, in fact, Car and Driver chose it over the Hyundai Sonata and Toyota Camry in their comparo test. Not everyone wants a car that blows the doors off the next guy. I drove a Montego AWD for a year and although not a speed machine, I thought it performed nicely for a family sedan.
GM and Ford are not asking the Fed to "bail them out". That is media hype. Where do you think the japanese companies got the money to build their technologies that are giving domestics their current headaches? The japanese government. All they are asking for is a leveling of the playing field in technology and alternative fuel research.
And you expect Ford to steal sales from Hoyonda by being just mediocre? Your Montego has performed nicely for you, for me it's too slow, I need faster, more exiting car - so I look elsewhere. Ford needs better than average cars, to appeal to a broader range of customers.
So far you've been making this about me.
Get to the point
But in general, the point is a good one. The trend at Ford has been a lack of trickle down from Jag to the other brands, but rather a "trickle up" whereby Jags got cheapened with excessive use of stuff from the Ford parts bin (including whole platforms and then some).
The way Ford has benefitted from PAG has been trickle down from Volvo instead, and that is a good enough reason to hang onto Volvo for a while even if it is having an off year.
I have said it before and I will say it again: Land Rover and Jag need to GO! Sell them first chance you get, Ford.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
So why isn't it selling like hot cakes?
EXACTLY !!!
Maybe if Ford and GM made a car that we Wanted and Needed - they wouldn't be asking the Fed to bail them out :confuse: