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To each his own. Some cars are exceptions and if properly maintained can last a long time.
I had a 1974 Audi LS100. It was a great car except for the mIntenance. Everything went wrong from a headlight connector buring out to the gear shift slector comming apart to a mnounter mount falling off. But it would go up icy hills with normals tires had a huge trunk and a great ride. I like VWs and I especailly liked the TDI 5-speed diesel Golf and almost bought one ( I was ready to sign in 2003 and they tried to stiff me out of $300, a lousy $300 and I wlaked), until I started reading about the relablity and then I remembered my Audi.
Now let's talk about your firned with 440K miles on a car. Who in their right mind would keep a car that long??? After awhile the technology, safety and features would be so far behind. And even a well maitained car would have to show interiro and exterior wear. Let's put it in real perspective, It would have to be atrue Junker if it had 400K miles. Let's say he is a normal driver and drives only 15K miles a year that would mena the car is 29 years old. That would mean today he was driving a 1977 car.ARG! Okay lets say he drives a lot each year, 40K mile. The car would still be 11 years old, a 1995. Still a pretty old car. Again to each his own.
Again, a reliable VW is an anomaly. VW sales appear to be hurting ( their attempt at the high price Phaeton was a dismal failure)and there is talk about large layoffs. If VW is doing so good, then why would their be large layoffs. And the current high price of diesel is hurting their diesel sales.
VW do drive nioce and have a great road feel. If only the could stay running on the road.
P.S.- Did your firends that no longer drive Hondas switch to VWs ?
Read this, then comment
I put 624,000 miles on my 1987 Golf GT. And the car was in good condition right up to the time when the deer crossed my path.
Some of us prefer to invest our money instead of going into debt buying the lastest and greatest automotive technology every year. An automobile is not considered an asset, but a steadily decreasing liability. Unless you bought a 1960s muscle car decades ago and it's still in mint condition today, the majority of automobiles depreciate - making them a bad return on investment...
That sure is a rosey picture of VW's current financial picture and the forecast for 2006.
But what about this article ???? -
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/02/11/business/worldbusiness/11volkswagen.html?ex=11- - 55445200&en=7c54071720c8ace5&ei=5087&excamp=OVBUvolkswagen
Quoted from article:
""We continue to incur significant losses on cars exported from Germany to the U.S.A.," the chief executive, Bernd Pischetsrieder, said in a statement. "In order to ensure a secure long-term future for the group, we must act rapidly and determinedly to eliminate the problems that we face." The depth of the cuts — nearly 6 percent of its worldwide work force of about 336,000 — impressed investors, as did the earnings. Shares of Volkswagen rose nearly 10 percent here to close at a three-year high."
Why is there such a discrepancy ? Is VW taking out of both sides of their mouth?
Of course, ignoring problems seems to be a trait of VW and maybe also VW vehicle owners ?
Did you notice VW tops the CR charts; on number of repairs for a 5 year life, that is.
Frankly, it doesn't matter to me one way or the other. When VW is ready to cut me those commission checks, then I will be their biggest cheerleader.
Some people know how to maintain their cars better than 90%+ of the drivers out on the road today. With my 25+ year engineering and mechanical background, I just happen to be one of them. I can be driving a go-cart on a daily basis, but I guarantee that I will keep it running at peak performance and reliability for years... :shades:
" It's not bragging if its true..."
- Cassius Clay (a.k.a. Muhammad Ali)
I doubt he meant "drive it for a few thousand, then get another one". He probably would be more likely to agree with selling at 150,000 than 450,000 or 15,000.
You didn't answer my question about corporate VW ?
You are really mixing apples and oranges. What the heck does 25+ engineering and mechanical background have anything to do with maintaining a car ? Absolutely Nothing.
Anyone can follow maintenace schedules and properly maintain a car it is not rocket science and does not require an astrophysics or even and engineering degree. It is just that some if mot most people tend to be a little lax and being a little lax with a VW is really, really bad.
Now if you make the choice and Choose VW, then you have to follow maintenace shcedules much more closely. VWs tpyically need a lot of tender loving care thatn other cars, there are otherceptions, a Ferrari comes immediately to mind. You can either or have it done or do some of yourself ( which I assume that is what you really meant with your 25+ years experience). But how hard is it to change the oils and fluids and filters and maybe even window actautors? I am sure you don't have VW electronics to check engine codes, etc. Even you probably take it into the shop for that. Maybe or maybe not you adjust the valves, change gaskets and/or perform fairly major engine,clutch and transmssison maintenance.
I am not sure Cassius Clay was the appropriate quote for a VW, I would think Murhpy's Law would be more apapropriate"
Murphy's law (also known as Finagle's law or Sod's law) is a popular adage in Western culture, which broadly states that things will go wrong in any given situation. "If there's more than one way to do a job, and one of those ways will result in disaster, then somebody will do it that way." It is most commonly formulated as "Anything that can go wrong will go wrong." In American culture the law was named after Major Edward A. Murphy, Jr., a development engineer working for a brief time on rocket sled experiments done by the United States Air Force in 1949.
P.S.- You know if a person really felt strong about VW Jettas they should have at least two, maybe a 1997 and a maybe a 2003 Wait a minute... Now I see your point
my 2 cents...
my 2 cents...
Your two cents is ALMOST valid...except for the part about similar mileage. The Civic has a 9 MPG advantage over the Jetta...that's not similar. That's like saying the Accord has Similar mileage to the Ford F-150...also 9 MPG apart.
Good luck on your recent VW purchase...VW has a rough reptutation for reliabilty lately...
Please tell us how it is when you get it. I am looking at one too and haven't been able to test one out. What were your impressions (good and bad). Thanks and congrats.
Good luck I kind of didthe smae thing as you. I drove a MX5 and really liked it and decided it wasn't practical. I like the VW but not its relaibility so I special ordered a Si last December. After the deal fell through after 8 weeks because NAV wasn't avaiaible and some dealer incompetence in placing the order. I saw a S2000. Found out they were willing to sell at invoice so I bought a red 2006 S2000. Sure, it is impratical but I still have an Accord for practicality. Good Luck and I wish you a trouble free VW.
What part of "When VW starts cutting me some royalty checks,
I will be their biggest cheerleader" didn't you understand?
The issue is a moot point to me. If the answer isn't satisfactory enough - oh well, that's life...
> You are really mixing apples and oranges. What the heck does 25+ engineering and mechanical background have anything to do with maintaining a car ? Absolutely Nothing.
On the contrary - it has a lot to do with maintaining a car - especially the maintenance background - I was a C-141 mechanic in the Air Force in my younger days. The experience I gained in making sure the aircraft was maintained at the proper intervals gave me the discipline to apply this principle to my automobiles. In the 25+ years of driving, I've owned five cars (the 1997 with 250K miles and 2003 with 65K miles were purchased just over two years ago). My first 3 cars lasted 350K, 250K, and 624K respectively. I guarantee the average owner wouldn't get anywhere near the mileage if they didn't have a good mechanical foundation. Having a good mechanical foundation also means that your local auto mechanic (dealership or otherwise) is less likely to add "unnecessary service charges" to your repair bill once they realize that you are "car smart" (like being street smart).
>Now if you make the choice and Choose VW, then you have to follow maintenace shcedules much more closely. VWs tpyically need a lot of tender loving care thatn other cars, there are otherceptions, a Ferrari comes immediately to mind.
That's where my mechanical background comes in... :shades:
>Murphy's law (also known as Finagle's law or Sod's law) is a popular adage in Western culture, which broadly states that things will go wrong in any given situation. "If there's more than one way to do a job, and one of those ways will result in disaster, then somebody will do it that way." It is most commonly formulated as "Anything that can go wrong will go wrong." In American culture the law was named after Major Edward A. Murphy, Jr., a development engineer working for a brief time on rocket sled experiments done by the United States Air Force in 1949.
Murphy knows better than to mess with me... :shades:
Good and somewhat humorus answers
Smoking the Peace Pipe,
P.S.- If I were to get a VW would you help me keep it running in tip-top shape?
Absolutely. The same would apply if you were driving a Honda, Volvo, Chevy, Toyota, Lexus, etc. Maintenance is maintenance, no matter what you drive, fly or ride. If it is well-maintained, 9 times out of 10 it will be relatively trouble free. If not, the reverse will happen...
B.T.W. - The Honda S2000 is a sweet ride. My next door neighbor has a friend who bought one. While having a conversation with the S2000 owner, he noticed my Wolfsburg Jetta sitting in my garage. So we spent the afternoon swapping stories about our cars. It turned out that I wished I had his transmission and he wished that his engine had the low-end torque of my Jetta. All in all a good conversation between a couple of car enthusiasts...
I wish you many exciting miles with your S2000... :shades:
I beg to differ...
My granddad - He's now 73, but drove his Civic for 260,000 and 16 years (it was an '87 model Wagon) miles before he sold it for $1,000 dollars.
He's in the grocery business (management) and never did his own maintanance (took it to Jiffy Lube every 6,000 miles). No college, no mechanical background.
My granddad - He's now 73, but drove his Civic for 260,000 and 16 years (it was an '87 model Wagon) miles before he sold it for $1,000 dollars.
I beg to differ...
People from my father's (he's 82) generation (including your grandad) took auto maintenance a lot more seriously than today's drivers. They either did their own maintenance or knew someone they trusted for years to do the maintenance for them. Today's long-hour working, cell-phone talking, latte-drinking, gotta-have-it-now generation tends to think of regular maintenance as an afterthought (due to extremely busy schedules). And when something goes wrong with their vehicles, they tend to sue everyone under the sun, moon and stars (instead of looking in the mirror) instead of taking responsibility for their actions.
>He's in the grocery business (management) and never did his own maintanance (took it to Jiffy Lube every 6,000 miles). No college, no mechanical background.
I fail to see what college has to do with maintaining a vehicle. I've been maintaining my vehicles long before I received my undergraduate and masters degrees. Educational credentials aren't the issue - common sense is... And it's safe to say that my dad and your grandad's generation exercised more common sense than the current generations today. And they tend to take good care of the things they spent their hard-earned money for. And since that's the approach I learned from my father, that's the approach I've decided to take. And it's worked very well for me... :shades:
If only more people would follow your granddad and my fathers example...hmm....
I have done a lot of research on both of these cars and as stated before, have test driven the 06 GTI. I found the 05 actually funner despite the 20 hp less. I think it actually looks better too(my opinion). The 06 has a higher stance, all related to North American standards so that bumpers align in crashes. Speaking of safety, the Civic is the only small car and one of only 5 cars to get the "gold" award from the IIHS in the 3 different crash tests. I have also read that the Civic EX fairs quite well in the snow too. It has air bags all around as standard equipment, where as the VW it is optional.
As far as pricing goes, I have not compared the lowest lines of cars, but I saw that the GLI and well equipped Jettas are almost impossible to find with a sticker less than $27k. I am currently on the waiting list to get a Honda Civic Si for $20,240. and haven't even test driven it yet. Yes that price is under MSRP which one will be very lucky to find, I know. The rest of the deal is the value of my trade in. That's right, my 04 honda accord. I bought it for $17,300, and am getting $13800, after almost two years and over 50K miles. Let's see a VW pull that off! Anyway, that's my soap box.
P.S. I hydroplaned and ended up in the oncoming traffic on I-20 just west of Dallas in my late VW Beetle. It had trsction control too!
I agree with several of your statements in your post, but this one (above) doesn't make sense. Traction control only helps on standing starts (preventing wheel spin), not stability at speed.
If you had a Stability Control System, it would be a different story.
I did with my Corolla. Reason: I had bad tires on.
Here's a little lesson on Hydroplaning. Safety systems do very little help in this situation. It often occurs during high speeds, but can still occur during low speeds depending on the condition of the tire. It happens when the tires do not have sufficient time to channel moisture away from the center of the tire. The result is that the tire is lifted by the water away from the road, resulting in a total loss of traction. You lose all your traction, and no system can truly help. These safety systems (ESC, Traction control) can only manage the existing grip. The best way to deal with this, is to get new tires. But if you do happen to find yourself Hydroplaning. Do not brake. Put it to neutral and let the car slow down (the water resistance) and regain grip. Once you have grip, slowly brake and steer yourself to safety.
You should always make sure your tires are in good condition.
True, Vehicle Stability Control Systems can only manage EXISTING grip, which depends on your tires and road surface. In ritlin's case though, he thought traction control would help. Traction control systems are designed to prevent wheelspin when starting from a stop. Most won't even activate above 10-20MPH (our 2000 Odyssey had a TCS that only works below 19MPH, because it only brakes wheels that spin (scratching off, in other words).
Price - I preach Honda's are spendy as some may witness in other rooms. VW is more spendy.
Refinement - Goes to VW hands down. Interior was beautiful, Tight, quiet and felt like an Audi.
Drivetrain - I believe these two vehicles are aimed at two different types of people. Civic felt more sporty, VW felt more refined in its driving manners. The VW wasn't going to win you any races, but drove solid. Civic felt quicker, responded quicker.
Beings I am in my early 40's and not really looking to win any races anylonger.. Plus, I don't like the teeny bopper image of the Civic.. My nod would go to the VW Jetta..
See ya round the CRV/Escape Forum!
Drove a Civic 4door EX.. pretty loaded.. I believe sticker was about 22K...
As I have said. Drive these two cars back to back. You will see what I mean about how different they really drive.
" beg to differ...
People from my father's (he's 82) generation (including your grandad) took auto maintenance a lot more seriously than today's drivers. They either did their own maintenance or knew someone they trusted for years to do the maintenance for them. Today's long-hour working, cell-phone talking, latte-drinking, gotta-have-it-now generation tends to think of regular maintenance as an afterthought (due to extremely busy schedules). And when something goes wrong with their vehicles, they tend to sue everyone under the sun, moon and stars (instead of looking in the mirror) instead of taking responsibility for their actions. "
But car are much more reliable now!
The have electronic igntiion instead of points and plugs.
You don't have to set the timing.
Oilf filters and engine machining/tolerance is much more advanced.
You don't have leaded Ethyl!
The have micro pocessors to control many engine functions.
Fan belts don't fail and have to be adjusted every 1,000 miles.
Radiators don't overheat becuase the water has evapoarate or the hose has busted ( at least not near as often)
Cars don't wear out at 50,000 miles any more ( i.e odometers are not longer just five digits!)
Welcome to the new age of technologially advanced autos!
By the way, they last longer and require a lot less maintenance
Hey, I love Hondas and think they're a great company with great products and the Civic is probably the best economy car on the market. But I think the Jetta goes beyond economy car status in terms of build quality and solidness. Obviously I mean other aspects of quality other than reliability when I mention VW such as quality of materials.
Is that a fair statement?
I have been researching VW's for about a month now. Granted, they have some issues. But I run into owners with 200,000 trouble free miles to owners that have problems day after purchase. But, same goes for Honda/Toyota/Nissan/Ford/GM...
Goggling Honda problems tells you what again?
What we should realize is that the difference between a reliable and a not so reliable car is a matter of a few percentage points.
A baseball player who hits .330 is considered a great hitter while a player who hits .260 is considered average. Those two numbers are not really that far apart. That .330 hitter will still make around 400 outs during the season.
If you type in "any manufacture-- problems" there will always be something that pops up.
But it seems according to both JD powers and CR, Honda in general is much more reliable than VW.
VW is usually near the bottom of the list, while Honda near the top.
I know there are some V-dub haters on this board, but if I could (stupid body-shop idiots, and their %$#@ fires!) I would keep my Jetta over the SI any day. I've smoked one out on the street...and I am a little under ten horses less than that bad boy. Couldn't handle the curves. :shades:
Hey think about it, if you have brand new wiring harness you should have even less elctrical problems. The fire and body damage are not the source of your elctrical problems.
As far as smoking a SI in the curves, maybe you were a better, more aggresive drive. I have beat a Mustang Cobra before, in a slightly modified GSR! Doesn't mean that the Cobra was a slouch
P.S.- Life is not about beating but the enjoyment of driving!
i had to get my .02 in as an 06 Civic Si owner.... i'll take my Si anyday.. i like to drive and i love how my Si drives.. sure its not as 'refined' or 'german engineered' but thats what i like about it: reliable, fast enough, looks good, nice exhaust, and a more futuristic interior vs refined...
plus, does your VW have LSD?? :P
Someone also mentioned vw, more usable low end torque in the new jetta as oppossed to the civic. Actually, since the jetta is so fat and heavy, that torque may feel like more when driving the vehicle, but actually accelerates in about the same time. If not more.
closer.I drove the Rabbit before I got my Civic and was
impressed with the quiet smooth solid ride and feeling of
quality. The main reason I went with Honda is I have
had Hondas since 1978 and trust their reliabilty.I like
the torque of 2.5 liters but like the fuel economy of
1.8 liters.I don't think the VW would do much better than
20 mpg in mixed driving but I am getting 28+ in same
conditions as my previous Sorento which did 15 mpg.I
would like a smoother ride though which means I am old.
Is there such a thing as sports car handling and Buick ride?
Yep, it's called a two-car garage. LOL... The Civic is not as rough as some of its competitors (Mazda 3 for example), so I'd say you made a pretty good tradeoff for handling and comfort.