Correction: Tire Rack data actually currently shows the oem tyre I spoke about (from memory 1.5 years ago) to be 21 st of 22. Firestone currently is the cellar leader in this category.
All my questions were "tongue in cheek" and or rhetorical but seriously I never got tire life or front pad life approaching any of these posted numbers. This through 40 plus years of driving and any number of vehicles with most (OK,many) of the popular brands of tires e.g. Firestone, Goodyear, Kelly, Continental, Dunlop, Michelin, Sears and many of the brands sold with off names but manufactured by the major tire companies. I used bias belted tires ( including wide ovals) in the 60's and 70's then radials in all sizes since. I can't say I always was religious about tire pressure and rotation but I have been for a few decades. I was pretty hard on tires in the late 60's early 70's having owned a string of 383-440 cu in Dodge and Plymouth cars and again in the 70's with a 70 Chevelle SS 454 but not now. I say again I do not know how anyone can get that many miles out of tires. I will concede brakes will last if you never use them however. But once again,you gotta stop sometime..!!!
Well there you have it then. Mine is only 41 years of driving.
On a more serious note, however is the Honda Civic is 450#'s LIGHTER than the VW Jetta. 2950#'s vs 2500#'s. So there theory broke down, there should be less wear due to weight. The other issue; while oem tires do take their share of criticism for a whole host of reasons, one usual significance is they normally have the least rolling resistance to get the best epa mpg.
"On a more serious note, however is the Honda Civic is 450#'s LIGHTER than the VW Jetta. 2950#'s vs 2500#'s. So there theory broke down, there should be less wear due to weight. The other issue; while oem tires do take their share of criticism for a whole host of reasons, one usual significance is they normally have the least rolling resistance to get the best epa mpg. "
I probably should clean up the quote a bit.
to: So in this example, the theory has broken down: there should be LESS wear due to lower weight.
So what this has done over the same amount of miles is to increase the cost per mile of operation of the Civic over the diesel Jetta, specifically by app 400 dollars. A quick and dirty per mile would be 42,000/400 dollars = $.095238 cents per mile.
Not necessarily, diesels are very expensive to work on and if you ran into some engine repairs on your diesel Jetta it would very quickly kick your carefully crafted "savings" over the Civic to hell. There are so many variables in this possible savings idea between the Jetta and Civic as to render it useless. OK maybe the fuel saving could be charted but as far as wear items..no way.
In the context of my post, your last assertion is almost illogical. It would have no effect, if for example; I didn't have to pay for it. Or someone like you would. Indeed my (Civic) expenses put a hole in YOUR carefully crafted idea/argument that the Civic is cheaper to run than the Jetta. I am just talking about what ACTUALLY happened. (at like miles) Indeed Civic has 47k more miles to go to be at the same level of comparison as the Jetta.
Indeed, I have EVERYTHING to GAIN with the tires on the Civic going to 100,000 miles with the original alignment!? Since I did buy the replacement tires 1.5 years ago, one could say, I went into the Civic ownership with eyes fully opened. So I shall see when I actually change the tires on the Civic. Nothing at 89k on the Jetta and I already talked about 42k on the Civic.
Upcoming are timing belt changes, 105k/100k on both vehicles. The price is about the same. But as you point out I do have 258k left on the Civic and 211k on the Jetta till both hit 300k.
Filled up after the alignment. Got 39 mpg (actually 39.2) I had been getting 38 or so. So the alignment seems to let the vehicle track better and the mpg is 1 better right after the alignment. Will see if it is a trend.
Could you explain in a little more detail why diesel engines are more expensive to work on? I've been looking into buying a Jetta TDI and wasn't aware of this. I'd really appreciate the help. Thanks!
Actually they are not. The problem and opportunity is not many mechanics know how or specialize on diesels. This is also true of independent shops/vendors.
Right now it is similar to hybrid mechanics.
So as a result, some specialized shops have taken to charging a premium. It is sort of the difference between what a Toyota vs Lexus dealer charges.
Also Honda's brake components (in the community) have a reputation for wearing out faster than other brands. While Honda has never addressed that publicly, (to my knowledge) so I will stand corrected with any postings or links. I understand the newer models 2007 have so called beefer rotors and pads combinations. Again, I do not know many 2007's with 100,000 miles so would defer to those with those experiences.
While I do not have first hand knowledge of specific repair costs of gas verses diesel I BELIEVE in general diesel engines while not having all the ignition parts a gas engine has (although these parts cause very few problems these days) do have some parts that are diesel specific. Some things that are used only in a diesel...maybe a high dollar fuel injector pump?? In addition, while the internal components are similar to gas the costs are greater for labor and most probably parts. You will also probably have a harder time finding a "run of the mill" local mechanic willing to work on one. As I said I do not have first hand experience but if labor cost alone (not to mention more expensive parts) is considered they ARE more expensive to work on than gas engines.
I didn't make the assertion the one verses the other would be cheaper to run only that there are so many variables that you cannot predict. Apparently you own both, a little fact I missed originally so yes you can chart them side-by-side and continue to monitor. My post was based on the assumption you owned one but speculated on the other...my mistake.
Truly as you surmise and state, there are some "diesel" specific items. But there are truly some gasser specific ones also. We just do not normally refer to and think of those itmes as gasser specific for 97% of the passenger vehicle fleet ARE gassers.
For example; a very subtle shift, but a shift nonetheless, I have to/should make sure the glow plug lamp goes out before I crank it up.
Yes, there are items found on only gasoline engines and not on diesels. Mainly they involve ignition components and spark plugs. Years ago I could have pointed to the distributor..the coil...distributor cap and rotor...plug wires...ignition module within the distributor and finally the plugs themselves all as potential trouble points the diesel didn't have. However, most of these individual components have been eliminated with inception of "coil on plug" modules that effectively do away with everything except the plugs and they now last upwards of 100K miles. So for all practical purposes the ignition system on a modern car has been so simplified that ignition problems (due to the sheer number of components ripe for possible individual failure)has all but been eliminated. Frankly the ignition system was about all the diesel has over a gas engine in its favor (with regard to potential extra repair items and costs) in as much as a diesel doesn't have one. A diesel does have that expensive injector pump, at least I guess they still have them. And instead of a $2.00 spark plug you have glow plugs that cost how much? Oh, I almost forgot what about that expensive turbo? (or two as on the new Ford Powerstroke)?? Virtually everything else is common..both have starter motors ( more expensive on a diesel due to it needing to be more powerful to crank a diesel)..alternators (more expensive on a diesel due to that extra powerful starting system and maybe two batteries)..water pump and radiator (possibly more expensive on a diesel due to the need for being larger to cope with the extra heat generated. You have all the internal components e.g crankshaft,bearings,pistons, connecting rods, valves etc. except all these pieces are made stronger due to the high compression of a diesel(costing more of course),and lets not forget extra large (and extra expensive fuel and possibly oil filters). And finally, as both you and I have stated labor costs are likely more due to the specalized mechanic needed to do any work on a diesel. They MAY last longer (I am not talking commercial truck diesels)between the need for internal rebuilds..BUT my last 1987 Ford taurus had 293,000 miles when I sold it last fall and the new owner drove it away. Most modern gas engines can do 100K miles without trouble and 200K with regular maintainance. I should add,it (my Taurus) used no oil did not smoke and was quiet...so aside from fuel economy what benefit a diesel? I will finish by stating I LIKE diesels and would like to be able to buy one in the brand of my choice but the argument a diesel isn't more expensive to maintain and repair than a gas engine..nah.
..."$2.00 spark plug you have glow plugs that cost how much? "...
I just about fell out getting the price for 4 each spark plugs NGK PZFR6F-11. 17.03 per, retail = $68.12. Of course you can google.
Glow plugs are not a "scheduled maintenance" type item, such as Honda Civic spark plugs. But $60. per 4 each. Truth is you can replace just one or up to 4.
Congradulations. Got to hand it to you, 293k on a FORD Taurus!! Woo Hoo! What do you swag was your mpg? It might be a stretch to assume you had NO unscheduled maintenance!? EVERYONE I knew with a Ford Taurus had very expensive issues, well below even 100,000 miles. My neighbor of at least 18 years, got Fords exclusively. He was/is almost totally meticulous in DIY. Yet, he had expensive issues on every one of his Ford's. His OCI's were 3/5 k and he used Motorcraft oil and filters. So the truth is I have helped him in his DIY. He of course wondered to himself and out loud at times, how I even considered going to 15,000 to 25,000 mile OCI's, but again he has helped me with all of mine.
Now if my Honda Civic gets to 315,000 miles (3 timing belt changes, 105k miles per) I'd be a happy camper. My goal is keep this in operation as long as possible even past 315k.
On the VW, past my initial misgivings, is seems to be no brainer at 90,000 to go to 300,000 miles. The timing belt change is due at 100,000 miles. If folks are interested I will report. But I have seen my timing belt guru do 15 of them, so I do not anticipate anything out of the ordinary, i.e., road hypnosis
I seldom bought plugs anywhere but an auto part store where you can buy Bosch platinum in a variety of electrode numbers from 1 to 4 for maybe $5-6.00 per plug for the 4 electrode version and lesser electrodes for something less. I did pay something over $60.00 for six plugs recently for our Dodge Stratus...this at the dealer while the car was in for something else. I don't know if one can even get non-platinum plugs yet but they should be fairly cheap at Pep Boys. With regards to the Taurus first I have a question..what does "swag" mean? But fuel economy was reasonable on most of the six or seven Sable/Taurus I owned. Around 20 in town and I saw as much as 29-30 on several long (once to Dallas Tx from Pa and once to Florida from Pa)trips. All were the 3.0 liter Vulcan engine and none of them required anything except alternators, waterpumps, on starter motor, and oil changes. The 87 wagon had the highest mileage but I also had an 87 LX sedan earlier that had 190K miles when sold.It too ran fine. Additionally there was an 87 Sable wagon the had around 160K miles when sold. The biggest(most expensive) issue were automatic transmissions. The sedan had the original transmission when sold @ 190K the Taurus wagon had a transmission explode at around 180K miles and it was replaced with a reman. The Sable was only a bit over 100K when the original went and the salvage yard replacement was on its way out at 160K. Yeah there were other issues, lots of them along the way but the 3.0 Vulcan V-6 in my opinion is/was one of Fords best.
First off I am a tad confused, You got 293k miles on one or several? Your follow up posts indicate several. Again, correct me if I am wrong.
I don't know how to say this but; alternators, starters, batteries, water pumps are sort of unscheduled, BUT scheduled maintenance items. However, anecdotally they do last however long they do last, i.e., do have a cost per cycle so to speak. If anyone is confused by this seemingly double talk, let me know. DIY folks and maintenance types do understand.
One of the things about 4 bangers is the timing belt change at app 100/105k. The good news, belts are more precise and obviously changed at the scheduled intervals refresh for another 100/105 mile cycle. The bad news is they stretch and can break and the design.
The older A-3 gen VW Jetta's put the water pump out of line. So in effect a water pump is good to go to at least 250,000 miles. BUT if it doesn't, you do not have to change the timing belt and is a simple ( less than 20 min) procedure vs a timing belt procedure of 2/6 hours. Both Honda (75 plus shipping) and A-4 gen (60 plus shipping) put the water pump in line. So even though it can be good to go to 200,000/250,000 miles it makes sense to change the water pump (early) at the 100/150 mile cycle (SAME LABOR COST). The reason is IF it does leak you have to perform the same belt change to change the water pump.
To help clear things up then...a 1987 Taurus wagon = 293K miles. a 1987 Taurus LX sedan = approx 188K miles a 1986 Sable wagon = approx 160K miles. I owned about 6 or 7 of these from the 1986 to 1989 model years but these three reached the highest mileage before disposing of/selling them. I bought them used after they were more than a couple of years old and drove the hell out of them. They fit my needs back then especially the station wagon versions. I kept the 87 wagon with 293K the longest (13 years). I never computed the cost to own any car I had but remember some were more problematic than others. When you keep a car as long as I kept some of these replacing alternators etc is inevitable. The only one that stands out was the 87 LX sedan which had an immense amount of small to medium problems mostly electrical (power window motors..power locks...climate control/AC wiring etc) it was in the shop more than any car I have ever owned however the Vulcan 3.0 V-6 ran flawlessly on all.
Under the category of lessons learned; truly if Honda's Civic's and VW's Jetta's are STATISTICALLY better than Ford's Taurus's, then in a manner of speaking, I have set my mileage goals WAY too low.
Since I have in the past run app 250,000 on a 1970 VW Beetle (bought used in 1971 with 10,000 miles, sold in 1978) and on conventional oil (1.5/3k mile OCI's). Geez every time I turned around, I was changing oil. For the oil filter super freaks, it might bear mentioning, the Beetle's air cooled engine didn't even have an oil filter! It quite literally used a stainless steel "mosquito screen". Oxymoronically the motor oil was used as an air screen, pre intake manifold.
I also ran a 1987 Toyota Landcruiser, 4 speed manual app 250,000 miles on Mobil One 5w30 oil with 15,000 OCI's.
So I think I will target 420,000 miles on the Civic (4 timing belt changes) . I will keep the same targets for the Jetta. Incidently a brand new TDI diesel engine is app $4,200.
So I think I will target 420,000 miles on the Civic (4 timing belt changes) . I will keep the same targets for the Jetta. Incidently a brand new TDI diesel engine is app $4,200.
Those are reasonable targets - the first engine in my 1987 Golf lasted 429,000 miles....
Ops, I probably should have clarified the targets for the Jetta, min of 5 belt changes, (500,000 miles) and more if possible. Again the design life for a TDI ALH engine is 25,000 miles (80% loading) As most folks know the good news and bad news is normal freeway speeds or an AVERAGE of 40-55 mph is probably no more that a 20-30% loading. So for me that puts the targets at the upper end of 1,000,000 to 1,250,000. So at 90,000 I have a ways to go.
Hi everyone! I'm about to buy my first car, had (in my mind) settled on a 2009 VW Jetta S, but after reading some of the posts on the VW forums, I'm not so sure.
Another car I was considering is a Honda Civic, but we have one (2000), and there are many little things about it that annoy me - the tiny trunk, the noisy and bumpy ride, the ridiculous horn, and we have also had a million little things break on it, most recently the A/C which would cost a fortune to replace.
All cars, regardless of their reputations/marketing NEED/demand/require maintenance. Indeed your anecdotal experiences with Honda Civic really makes my case. The only question is whether maintenance is unscheduled/schedule or a combination. You of course can go to whatever web site and compare the scheduled maintenance and weigh the situation. Durability and reliability affects unscheduled maintenance. NO maintenance is an absolute myth !!!! You would be much better off if you expanded your education and do some to all; DIY and/or leave the major stuff to shops, mechanics, etc that you truly know do good work. Anymore, special tools and/or equipment and or costs can make it uneconomical for you to purchase and sometimes just rent.
Your comments give me a sense that either you got a lemon Civic or more likely, just fix things when they no longer work.
So for example, my Civic at 76,000 miles has been on the one hand EXCELLENT, but on the other hand, I have needed tires at 74,300 miles and three alignments. (we are not curb wackers). Compare this against a VW Jetta TDI that did NOT need an alignment at 100,000 miles and the oe tires are still rolling @ 111,000 miles. I run 20,000 /25,000 miles OCI's for the Civic/Jetta TDI respectively. At LIKE (76,000 ) mileage, while I have been satisfied with both, the Honda's consumable parts seem to wear 2 to 3 times FASTER.
Yes, I do realize that they need maintenance, I was more worried about having to spend tons of money on things breaking (people's examples have included faulty electrical wiring, etc.).
"Your comments give me a sense that either you got a lemon Civic or more likely, just fix things when they no longer work."
How is one supposed to fix things before they break?
My husband is in charge of the Honda, and he takes it for all it's maintenance appointments, but it really has been one thing after another that has been going on it (forget what the thing is called that makes it sound like a tractor (English is not my first language), but that's been a problem several times, along with other non-life threatening issues, but annoying nonetheless). On the other hand, my sister-in-law had a Honda Accord for 10 years, and nothing broke on that. She says she probably spent a total of $300 on it during all those years.
I am also wondering if people are more likely to post comments when they have bad experiences rather than good. I guess I'll just have to go with my gut feeling once I test drive one.
..."How is one supposed to fix things before they break?"...
While your quote might seem oxymoronic, indeed it is NOT. It is really a matter of listening, watching, etc. The car is really "talking to " you. It is really a matter of whether one choses to listen. So for example, you point out your husband is in charge of the maintenance. But indeed if he/she/it is not the primary or alternative driver, it is truly the responsibility of the primary driver (aka YOU).
I will give you an example, as much as I brought up my daughters to know, listen for , understand, shown and watch them actually check what is important: they would rather go to funerals, have root canal, etc. (you get the drift, I hope)
So one car was 300 miles/600 miles round trip AWAY, the other is currently 100/200 miles away. One made the 300 mile trip , 2 quarts LOW !!!!!!! GEEZ !! So I asked her when was the LAST time she checked the dipstick, !?? I mean if the engine burns up, its HER stuck in the middle of no where (some place in Santa Barbara/LA area) !!?? Not a good place for ANYBODY to be!!!
So to get back to Honda vs Jetta, the chance seems lower with the Honda in getting a lemon/to lemonish. Of course that is no consolation if you truy have THE lemon (of whatever oem).
The cost of maintenance on the VW will be notably higher; just call some dealers and ask how much some of the services cost (oil change, transmission fluid change, brake job, etc...). It's worth investigating.
May I ask why you've limited your choices to the Civic and Jetta? There are some excellent vehicles out there in this price range if you aren't comfortable with purchasing either one.
Those who are debating whether to buy a Civic or a Jetta / a Civic Si or a GTI, go and buy a Honda pleaseeee I currently own a Jetta generation IV and I'm about to guy a 2009 Civic LX-S because of that. VW's are not total :lemon: but I've pretty much spend around 2000 dlls on reparations during the 5 years I've had it :sick: , this doesn't count the services.
VW's are really nice and super fast but even the tiniest issue will cost you an arm and a leg, on the other hand if you are filthy rich :shades: , buy yourself a VW or an Audi
My lease is up in a couple of months. Mileage is 35k and the car has been fantastic so far. Residual is 10k-ish. I'm tempted to buy it, but I own a 2003 Passat and it's been rough on the old banky balancer. That too was a lease and the car was flawless until I bought it, and since then it's cost me an arm and a leg (thermostat,oil sludge etc). Has the 2005 Jetta got a better reputation as far as reliability goes? I know it's a gamble either way. I wonder if I should just turn it in and buy something else new (Honda/Hyundai perhaps?) Any feedback/tips/warnings would be gratefully received. Cheers then, Steve R.
First, 10k is a very good price for a 2005.5 Jetta with 35k. But even then you can see if there is any room to negotiate on the purchase price--should be possible if the lease is through VW. Second, the New Jetta has a pretty good reliablity record, e.g. CR says it's Average for the 2005.5. Average isn't great, but considering they also say the predicted reliability of a new Camry is Average, maybe that's not too bad. If you like the car, it's been reliable for you, and you know exactly how it's been treated and maintained, it might be the best used car you could buy. Maybe check out what your VW dealer can do for you on an extended warranty--then you'd have the peace of mind of a warranty plus be able to keep your Jetta. Anyway, IMO the Jetta is at least as good if not better than comparable cars from Honda (Civic) or Hyundai (Elantra). Against the Elantra in particular, the Jetta is a more fun-to-drive and safer car.
Thanks for the feedback. I meant to say "Sonata" rather than Elantra. The Sonata seems like a fair bit of car for the price, especially with the cash-back deal. I think I'm a little gun-shy with the VWs; I have a fear of being stuck paying for two of them and driving while holding my breath!
other than the fact that I'm 6'5" and don't fit into most Japanese cars easily, most of the extra weight of a Golf or Jetta compared to a Civic (Rabbit is 300 pounds heavier) is more steel protecting your [non-permissible content removed] in an accident. Civic's are OK head-on (the stuff they have to make strong to meet Federal rules) but when hit in the side or rear they are ... not very good (but better than, say, a Cavalier/Cobalt). Of all the fatal car accidents near Vancouver one winter, half the vehicles that people died in were Civics.
As an RCMP mountie whose job is highway patrol in the mountains said to me: "I'd rather be in a German car with a seat-belt than a Japanese apple-crate with an air-bag" ... and this guy has lots of firsthand knowledge of "real car-crash tests".
Here are some notes from Edmund's 'car-comparison feature that I sent to a friend who is upset that he had to take his Golf into the dealer for a repair at 140,000 kms:
You know how our rain varies, and you're always changing the variable intermittent wipers to match? No problem on a Honda ... variable intermittent is not available! (just one intermittent delay for the world)
Lets check the other features:
VW: Twin cams, Honda: single cam
AUDIO 10 speakers in VW, 4 speakers in Honda
INTERIOR VW: Black or Tan. Honda: Grey or .... grey
The following is a list of VW Rabbit features (standard unless optional specified) optional sunroof: Not Available on Honda Civic intermittent wiper: Not Available on Honda Civic rear wiper: Not Available on Honda Civic heated seats: Not Available on Honda Civic split-folding rear seat: Not Available on Honda Civic remote power locks: Not Available on Honda Civic One-touch power windows: Not Available on Honda Civic heated mirrors: Not Available on Honda Civic power-adjusted mirrors: Not Available on Honda Civic Cruise control: Not Available on Honda Civic Speed Proportional power steering: Not Available on Honda Civic rear cup-holders: Not Available on Honda Civic cargo-area tie-downs: Not Available on Honda Civic power-outlet, cargo area: Not Available on Honda Civic center console: Not Available on Honda Civic rear-seat "easy entry" (front seat slides out of the way in 2-door model) Not Available on Honda Civic optional floor mats: Not Available on Honda Civic cargo area mats: Not Available on Honda Civic external temp. indicator: Not Available on Honda Civic
SAFETY FEATURES rear disc brakes: Not Available on Honda Civic (except SI ... which is a pile more money) brake assist: Not Available on Honda Civic traction control: Not Available on Honda Civic stability control: Not Available on Honda Civic signals in mirrors: Not Available on Honda Civic remote anti-theft alarm system: Not Available on Honda Civic
So, for the same price, the Civic has 1/2 the features of a base Rabbit, and isn't as safe. (of the extra-high safety rated cars, 1/2 are VW/Audis)
No wonder the Japanese are profitable!
Just thought you'd like an apples-to-apples comparison.
There are several inaccuracies in your post. e.g. moonroof is standard on the Civic EX trims, as is intermittant wiper (all), as are remote power locks, power mirrors, cruise, center console (all trims but base?), floor mats are standard on Civic I think, stability control is available on upper-end trims on Civic.
Also re an earlier post re side crash safety, the Civic got "Good" (best") on the tough IIHS side impact crash test, so it is no slouch there.
There are several inaccuracies in your post. e.g. moonroof is standard on the Civic EX trims, as is intermittant wiper (all), as are remote power locks, power mirrors, cruise, center console (all trims but base?), floor mats are standard on Civic I think, stability control is available on upper-end trims on Civic.
All of what you say is true for US models, but maybe its different in Canada on SOME things. However, I'm looking at Honda-Canada's website for my info on the Civic, not VWs. To our friend who posted earlier, check out this link. It'll prove VW is untruthful/misinformed about the Civic. Click here to see it! Disc Brakes? Heated Leater Seats? Rear Armrest with Cupholders? Stability Control? Variable-Speed Intermittent Wipers? Yep, all available. I'd list more, but don't have the time to do so.
Not picking a fight here, just trying to help you be more informed. :shades:
I would think there would not be that much difference in available equipment in Canada, though, e.g. no power locks? mirrors? cruise? floor mats (even as options)? And Canada gets features we sometimes don't get, e.g. some cars up there routinely get heated seats and mirrors but US cars don't (an example that comes to mind is the lowly Accent, that has heated seats available in Canada but not the US).
Edit: I replied to your original post, not the edited version.
As I mentioned in the post, ALL information comes from EDMUNDS.COM using the compare vehicles feature. I noticed errors about the VWs too, where it lists something as "not available" when its either optional or standard. But it sounds like they are WAY off on the Civic features!
I wonder why, for a car site, Edmunds has so many errors in its specs for cars?
BTW: I love Honda's engines and they have good handling and are sportier than most Japanese cars. But I don't like the tinny doors ...
Comparing a Civic to a Rabbit makes sense. Comparing a Jetta to an Accord makes sense. (I used the compare feature with a Jetta 4-cyl. against a high-end Accord 4-cyl. and they were within a couple hundred on price and almost EXACTLY the same on features) So those make sense to me ... but a Civic vs. a Jetta ... well, they're not even close in features, size, price .... I don't get it.
Oops! I made a mistake there. I compared a 5-cyl, manual Jetta against a 4-cyl, manual Accord. Here: /www.edmunds.com/...../VehicleComparison.... The Honda has more HP, the Jetta has more Torque, they have similar performance. And they have almost IDENTICAL features. As close to the same car as you can get. The main difference is that the Accord price is roughly $5,500 higher than the Jetta's price.
Comparing a Jetta to a Civic makes sense--but be sure to compare equivalent trim levels.
Comparing a Jetta to an Accord makes little sense--you are comparing a compact to a much larger car, with a full-sized interior. Also you happened to compare a loaded Accord, with leather, to a lesser-trim Jetta. No wonder the Accord cost more. Try comparing a Passat to an Accord, with similar equipment, and see what you get.
That's so funny! A base Passat has most of the features of a loaded Accord. Same with a Jetta. The Accord is a nice car, and has more room in the back seat than the Jetta, but the Jetta has a larger trunk and can handle more weight safely (better handling).
The Passat doesn't compete with the Accord ... it competes with the Benz C-class and BMW 3-series.
A base Passat has most of the features of a loaded Accord. Same with a Jetta.
A base Jetta has a leather interior? I don't think so. A base Jetta has power seats? No. A base Jetta has 17" alloys? No. A base Jetta has a moonroof? Nope. A base Jetta has auto climate control? Nein.
Seems a base Jetta is missing many features of a loaded Accord.
Why not change it yourself? It's not that hard. Just get the filters from the dealer, and get good synthetic from your favorite auto shop. Mobil 1 is rated to work with the Jetta's engines and what goes in the 2.0T with 6spd my daughter drives.
a friend in Columbus Ohio just had her Jetta TDI totalled by an SUV that t-boned her at high speed. Cops said she'd probably be dead if she was in a Japanese car. She has a sore neck. Argue feature lists all you want. A Jetta costs more, but its more car, much safer, and lasts longer, especially if you get the diesel, which is a no-brainer because its cost of ownership is lower and re-sale much higher (VW resale is highest in the industry).
Funny thing, but people who switch from Japanese to German cars almost never go back. Ask one of them why. They're easy to find. VW sells almost a million cars a month.
Funny thing, but people who switch from Japanese to German cars almost never go back. Ask one of them why. They're easy to find. VW sells almost a million cars a month.
That is funny; its a statistically insignificant thing, but the two people I know who have owned VW for any length of time have said it would be their first and last; they can't afford the 4-figure repairs that keep hitting well before the 100k mi mark.
Comments
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/surveyresults/surveydisplay.jsp?type=AS&width=185%- 2F&ratio=70&diameter=14&tireSearch=true&autoMake=Honda&autoYear=2004&autoModel=C- ivic%20DX%20Sedan&autoModClar=&speed_rating=S&speed_rating=T&speed_rating=U&spee- d_rating=H&speed_rating=V
On a more serious note, however is the Honda Civic is 450#'s LIGHTER than the VW Jetta. 2950#'s vs 2500#'s. So there theory broke down, there should be less wear due to weight. The other issue; while oem tires do take their share of criticism for a whole host of reasons, one usual significance is they normally have the least rolling resistance to get the best epa mpg.
I probably should clean up the quote a bit.
to: So in this example, the theory has broken down: there should be LESS wear due to lower weight.
Indeed, I have EVERYTHING to GAIN with the tires on the Civic going to 100,000 miles with the original alignment!? Since I did buy the replacement tires 1.5 years ago, one could say, I went into the Civic ownership with eyes fully opened. So I shall see when I actually change the tires on the Civic. Nothing at 89k on the Jetta and I already talked about 42k on the Civic.
Upcoming are timing belt changes, 105k/100k on both vehicles. The price is about the same. But as you point out I do have 258k left on the Civic and 211k on the Jetta till both hit 300k.
Right now it is similar to hybrid mechanics.
So as a result, some specialized shops have taken to charging a premium. It is sort of the difference between what a Toyota vs Lexus dealer charges.
Also Honda's brake components (in the community) have a reputation for wearing out faster than other brands. While Honda has never addressed that publicly, (to my knowledge) so I will stand corrected with any postings or links. I understand the newer models 2007 have so called beefer rotors and pads combinations. Again, I do not know many 2007's with 100,000 miles so would defer to those with those experiences.
For example; a very subtle shift, but a shift nonetheless, I have to/should make sure the glow plug lamp goes out before I crank it up.
I just about fell out getting the price for 4 each spark plugs NGK PZFR6F-11. 17.03 per, retail = $68.12. Of course you can google.
Glow plugs are not a "scheduled maintenance" type item, such as Honda Civic spark plugs. But $60. per 4 each. Truth is you can replace just one or up to 4.
Congradulations. Got to hand it to you, 293k on a FORD Taurus!! Woo Hoo! What do you swag was your mpg? It might be a stretch to assume you had NO unscheduled maintenance!? EVERYONE I knew with a Ford Taurus had very expensive issues, well below even 100,000 miles. My neighbor of at least 18 years, got Fords exclusively. He was/is almost totally meticulous in DIY. Yet, he had expensive issues on every one of his Ford's. His OCI's were 3/5 k and he used Motorcraft oil and filters. So the truth is I have helped him in his DIY. He of course wondered to himself and out loud at times, how I even considered going to 15,000 to 25,000 mile OCI's, but again he has helped me with all of mine.
Now if my Honda Civic gets to 315,000 miles (3 timing belt changes, 105k miles per) I'd be a happy camper. My goal is keep this in operation as long as possible even past 315k.
On the VW, past my initial misgivings, is seems to be no brainer at 90,000 to go to 300,000 miles. The timing belt change is due at 100,000 miles. If folks are interested I will report. But I have seen my timing belt guru do 15 of them, so I do not anticipate anything out of the ordinary, i.e., road hypnosis
With regards to the Taurus first I have a question..what does "swag" mean? But fuel economy was reasonable on most of the six or seven Sable/Taurus I owned. Around 20 in town and I saw as much as 29-30 on several long (once to Dallas Tx from Pa and once to Florida from Pa)trips. All were the 3.0 liter Vulcan engine and none of them required anything except alternators, waterpumps, on starter motor, and oil changes. The 87 wagon had the highest mileage but I also had an 87 LX sedan earlier that had 190K miles when sold.It too ran fine. Additionally there was an 87 Sable wagon the had around 160K miles when sold. The biggest(most expensive) issue were automatic transmissions. The sedan had the original transmission when sold @ 190K the Taurus wagon had a transmission explode at around 180K miles and it was replaced with a reman. The Sable was only a bit over 100K when the original went and the salvage yard replacement was on its way out at 160K. Yeah there were other issues, lots of them along the way but the 3.0 Vulcan V-6 in my opinion is/was one of Fords best.
First off I am a tad confused, You got 293k miles on one or several? Your follow up posts indicate several. Again, correct me if I am wrong.
I don't know how to say this but; alternators, starters, batteries, water pumps are sort of unscheduled, BUT scheduled maintenance items. However, anecdotally they do last however long they do last, i.e., do have a cost per cycle so to speak. If anyone is confused by this seemingly double talk, let me know. DIY folks and maintenance types do understand.
One of the things about 4 bangers is the timing belt change at app 100/105k. The good news, belts are more precise and obviously changed at the scheduled intervals refresh for another 100/105 mile cycle. The bad news is they stretch and can break and the design.
The older A-3 gen VW Jetta's put the water pump out of line. So in effect a water pump is good to go to at least 250,000 miles. BUT if it doesn't, you do not have to change the timing belt and is a simple ( less than 20 min) procedure vs a timing belt procedure of 2/6 hours. Both Honda (75 plus shipping) and A-4 gen (60 plus shipping) put the water pump in line. So even though it can be good to go to 200,000/250,000 miles it makes sense to change the water pump (early) at the 100/150 mile cycle (SAME LABOR COST). The reason is IF it does leak you have to perform the same belt change to change the water pump.
Since I have in the past run app 250,000 on a 1970 VW Beetle (bought used in 1971 with 10,000 miles, sold in 1978) and on conventional oil (1.5/3k mile OCI's). Geez every time I turned around, I was changing oil. For the oil filter super freaks, it might bear mentioning, the Beetle's air cooled engine didn't even have an oil filter! It quite literally used a stainless steel "mosquito screen". Oxymoronically the motor oil was used as an air screen, pre intake manifold.
I also ran a 1987 Toyota Landcruiser, 4 speed manual app 250,000 miles on Mobil One 5w30 oil with 15,000 OCI's.
So I think I will target 420,000 miles on the Civic (4 timing belt changes) . I will keep the same targets for the Jetta. Incidently a brand new TDI diesel engine is app $4,200.
Those are reasonable targets - the first engine in my 1987 Golf lasted 429,000 miles....
I'm about to buy my first car, had (in my mind) settled on a 2009 VW Jetta S, but after reading some of the posts on the VW forums, I'm not so sure.
Another car I was considering is a Honda Civic, but we have one (2000), and there are many little things about it that annoy me - the tiny trunk, the noisy and bumpy ride, the ridiculous horn, and we have also had a million little things break on it, most recently the A/C which would cost a fortune to replace.
Any advice?
Change miles to HOURS.
Your comments give me a sense that either you got a lemon Civic or more likely, just fix things when they no longer work.
So for example, my Civic at 76,000 miles has been on the one hand EXCELLENT, but on the other hand, I have needed tires at 74,300 miles and three alignments. (we are not curb wackers). Compare this against a VW Jetta TDI that did NOT need an alignment at 100,000 miles and the oe tires are still rolling @ 111,000 miles. I run 20,000 /25,000 miles OCI's for the Civic/Jetta TDI respectively. At LIKE (76,000 ) mileage, while I have been satisfied with both, the Honda's consumable parts seem to wear 2 to 3 times FASTER.
"Your comments give me a sense that either you got a lemon Civic or more likely, just fix things when they no longer work."
How is one supposed to fix things before they break?
My husband is in charge of the Honda, and he takes it for all it's maintenance appointments, but it really has been one thing after another that has been going on it (forget what the thing is called that makes it sound like a tractor (English is not my first language), but that's been a problem several times, along with other non-life threatening issues, but annoying nonetheless). On the other hand, my sister-in-law had a Honda Accord for 10 years, and nothing broke on that. She says she probably spent a total of $300 on it during all those years.
I am also wondering if people are more likely to post comments when they have bad experiences rather than good. I guess I'll just have to go with my gut feeling once I test drive one.
While your quote might seem oxymoronic, indeed it is NOT. It is really a matter of listening, watching, etc. The car is really "talking to " you. It is really a matter of whether one choses to listen. So for example, you point out your husband is in charge of the maintenance. But indeed if he/she/it is not the primary or alternative driver, it is truly the responsibility of the primary driver (aka YOU).
I will give you an example, as much as I brought up my daughters to know, listen for , understand, shown and watch them actually check what is important: they would rather go to funerals, have root canal, etc. (you get the drift, I hope)
So one car was 300 miles/600 miles round trip AWAY, the other is currently 100/200 miles away. One made the 300 mile trip , 2 quarts LOW !!!!!!! GEEZ !! So I asked her when was the LAST time she checked the dipstick, !?? I mean if the engine burns up, its HER stuck in the middle of no where (some place in Santa Barbara/LA area) !!?? Not a good place for ANYBODY to be!!!
So to get back to Honda vs Jetta, the chance seems lower with the Honda in getting a lemon/to lemonish. Of course that is no consolation if you truy have THE lemon (of whatever oem).
May I ask why you've limited your choices to the Civic and Jetta? There are some excellent vehicles out there in this price range if you aren't comfortable with purchasing either one.
go and buy a Honda pleaseeee I currently own a Jetta generation IV and I'm about to guy a 2009 Civic LX-S because of that. VW's are not total :lemon: but I've pretty much spend around 2000 dlls on reparations during the 5 years I've had it :sick: , this doesn't count the services.
VW's are really nice and super fast but even the tiniest issue will cost you an arm and a leg, on the other hand if you are filthy rich :shades: , buy yourself a VW or an Audi
Cheers then,
Steve R.
Both Civic and VW are nice. I have an 08 Jetta!! Love it! But, expensive to maintain, no issues yet, but that oil change sets you back some change.
I think I'm a little gun-shy with the VWs; I have a fear of being stuck paying for two of them and driving while holding my breath!
Civic's are OK head-on (the stuff they have to make strong to meet Federal rules) but when hit in the side or rear they are ... not very good (but better than, say, a Cavalier/Cobalt).
Of all the fatal car accidents near Vancouver one winter, half the vehicles that people died in were Civics.
As an RCMP mountie whose job is highway patrol in the mountains said to me: "I'd rather be in a German car with a seat-belt than a Japanese apple-crate with an air-bag" ... and this guy has lots of firsthand knowledge of "real car-crash tests".
You know how our rain varies, and you're always changing the variable intermittent wipers to match?
No problem on a Honda ... variable intermittent is not available! (just one intermittent delay for the world)
Lets check the other features:
VW: Twin cams, Honda: single cam
AUDIO
10 speakers in VW, 4 speakers in Honda
INTERIOR
VW: Black or Tan. Honda: Grey or .... grey
The following is a list of VW Rabbit features (standard unless optional specified)
optional sunroof: Not Available on Honda Civic
intermittent wiper: Not Available on Honda Civic
rear wiper: Not Available on Honda Civic
heated seats: Not Available on Honda Civic
split-folding rear seat: Not Available on Honda Civic
remote power locks: Not Available on Honda Civic
One-touch power windows: Not Available on Honda Civic
heated mirrors: Not Available on Honda Civic
power-adjusted mirrors: Not Available on Honda Civic
Cruise control: Not Available on Honda Civic
Speed Proportional power steering: Not Available on Honda Civic
rear cup-holders: Not Available on Honda Civic
cargo-area tie-downs: Not Available on Honda Civic
power-outlet, cargo area: Not Available on Honda Civic
center console: Not Available on Honda Civic
rear-seat "easy entry" (front seat slides out of the way in 2-door model) Not Available on Honda Civic
optional floor mats: Not Available on Honda Civic
cargo area mats: Not Available on Honda Civic
external temp. indicator: Not Available on Honda Civic
SAFETY FEATURES
rear disc brakes: Not Available on Honda Civic (except SI ... which is a pile more money)
brake assist: Not Available on Honda Civic
traction control: Not Available on Honda Civic
stability control: Not Available on Honda Civic
signals in mirrors: Not Available on Honda Civic
remote anti-theft alarm system: Not Available on Honda Civic
So, for the same price, the Civic has 1/2 the features of a base Rabbit, and isn't as safe.
(of the extra-high safety rated cars, 1/2 are VW/Audis)
No wonder the Japanese are profitable!
Just thought you'd like an apples-to-apples comparison.
Also re an earlier post re side crash safety, the Civic got "Good" (best") on the tough IIHS side impact crash test, so it is no slouch there.
All of what you say is true for US models, but maybe its different in Canada on SOME things. However, I'm looking at Honda-Canada's website for my info on the Civic, not VWs. To our friend who posted earlier, check out this link. It'll prove VW is untruthful/misinformed about the Civic. Click here to see it! Disc Brakes? Heated Leater Seats? Rear Armrest with Cupholders? Stability Control? Variable-Speed Intermittent Wipers? Yep, all available. I'd list more, but don't have the time to do so.
Not picking a fight here, just trying to help you be more informed. :shades:
Best regards,
TheGraduate
I would think there would not be that much difference in available equipment in Canada, though, e.g. no power locks? mirrors? cruise? floor mats (even as options)? And Canada gets features we sometimes don't get, e.g. some cars up there routinely get heated seats and mirrors but US cars don't (an example that comes to mind is the lowly Accent, that has heated seats available in Canada but not the US).
Edit: I replied to your original post, not the edited version.
I noticed errors about the VWs too, where it lists something as "not available" when its either optional or standard.
But it sounds like they are WAY off on the Civic features!
I wonder why, for a car site, Edmunds has so many errors in its specs for cars?
BTW: I love Honda's engines and they have good handling and are sportier than most Japanese cars. But I don't like the tinny doors ...
Comparing a Jetta to an Accord makes sense.
(I used the compare feature with a Jetta 4-cyl. against a high-end Accord 4-cyl. and they were within a couple hundred on price and almost EXACTLY the same on features)
So those make sense to me ... but a Civic vs. a Jetta ... well, they're not even close in features, size, price .... I don't get it.
I compared a 5-cyl, manual Jetta against a 4-cyl, manual Accord.
Here: /www.edmunds.com/...../VehicleComparison....
The Honda has more HP, the Jetta has more Torque, they have similar performance.
And they have almost IDENTICAL features.
As close to the same car as you can get.
The main difference is that the Accord price is roughly $5,500 higher than the Jetta's price.
Comparing a Jetta to a Civic makes sense--but be sure to compare equivalent trim levels.
Comparing a Jetta to an Accord makes little sense--you are comparing a compact to a much larger car, with a full-sized interior. Also you happened to compare a loaded Accord, with leather, to a lesser-trim Jetta. No wonder the Accord cost more. Try comparing a Passat to an Accord, with similar equipment, and see what you get.
A base Passat has most of the features of a loaded Accord.
Same with a Jetta.
The Accord is a nice car, and has more room in the back seat than the Jetta, but the Jetta has a larger trunk and can handle more weight safely (better handling).
The Passat doesn't compete with the Accord ... it competes with the Benz C-class and BMW 3-series.
Still, I'd take an Accord over a Camry any day
A base Jetta has a leather interior? I don't think so. A base Jetta has power seats? No. A base Jetta has 17" alloys? No. A base Jetta has a moonroof? Nope. A base Jetta has auto climate control? Nein.
Seems a base Jetta is missing many features of a loaded Accord.
-Paul
Argue feature lists all you want. A Jetta costs more, but its more car, much safer, and lasts longer, especially if you get the diesel, which is a no-brainer because its cost of ownership is lower and re-sale much higher (VW resale is highest in the industry).
Funny thing, but people who switch from Japanese to German cars almost never go back. Ask one of them why. They're easy to find. VW sells almost a million cars a month.
That is funny; its a statistically insignificant thing, but the two people I know who have owned VW for any length of time have said it would be their first and last; they can't afford the 4-figure repairs that keep hitting well before the 100k mi mark.