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http://www.tirerack.com/tires/surveyresults/surveydisplay.jsp?type=AS&width=185%- 2F&ratio=70&diameter=14&tireSearch=true&autoMake=Honda&autoYear=2004&autoModel=C- ivic%20DX%20Sedan&autoModClar=&speed_rating=S&speed_rating=T&speed_rating=U&spee- d_rating=H&speed_rating=V
On a more serious note, however is the Honda Civic is 450#'s LIGHTER than the VW Jetta. 2950#'s vs 2500#'s. So there theory broke down, there should be less wear due to weight. The other issue; while oem tires do take their share of criticism for a whole host of reasons, one usual significance is they normally have the least rolling resistance to get the best epa mpg.
I probably should clean up the quote a bit.
to: So in this example, the theory has broken down: there should be LESS wear due to lower weight.
Indeed, I have EVERYTHING to GAIN with the tires on the Civic going to 100,000 miles with the original alignment!? Since I did buy the replacement tires 1.5 years ago, one could say, I went into the Civic ownership with eyes fully opened. So I shall see when I actually change the tires on the Civic. Nothing at 89k on the Jetta and I already talked about 42k on the Civic.
Upcoming are timing belt changes, 105k/100k on both vehicles. The price is about the same. But as you point out I do have 258k left on the Civic and 211k on the Jetta till both hit 300k.
Right now it is similar to hybrid mechanics.
So as a result, some specialized shops have taken to charging a premium. It is sort of the difference between what a Toyota vs Lexus dealer charges.
Also Honda's brake components (in the community) have a reputation for wearing out faster than other brands. While Honda has never addressed that publicly, (to my knowledge) so I will stand corrected with any postings or links. I understand the newer models 2007 have so called beefer rotors and pads combinations. Again, I do not know many 2007's with 100,000 miles so would defer to those with those experiences.
For example; a very subtle shift, but a shift nonetheless, I have to/should make sure the glow plug lamp goes out before I crank it up.
I just about fell out getting the price for 4 each spark plugs NGK PZFR6F-11. 17.03 per, retail = $68.12. Of course you can google.
Glow plugs are not a "scheduled maintenance" type item, such as Honda Civic spark plugs. But $60. per 4 each. Truth is you can replace just one or up to 4.
Congradulations. Got to hand it to you, 293k on a FORD Taurus!! Woo Hoo! What do you swag was your mpg? It might be a stretch to assume you had NO unscheduled maintenance!? EVERYONE I knew with a Ford Taurus had very expensive issues, well below even 100,000 miles. My neighbor of at least 18 years, got Fords exclusively. He was/is almost totally meticulous in DIY. Yet, he had expensive issues on every one of his Ford's. His OCI's were 3/5 k and he used Motorcraft oil and filters. So the truth is I have helped him in his DIY. He of course wondered to himself and out loud at times, how I even considered going to 15,000 to 25,000 mile OCI's, but again he has helped me with all of mine.
Now if my Honda Civic gets to 315,000 miles (3 timing belt changes, 105k miles per) I'd be a happy camper. My goal is keep this in operation as long as possible even past 315k.
On the VW, past my initial misgivings, is seems to be no brainer at 90,000 to go to 300,000 miles. The timing belt change is due at 100,000 miles. If folks are interested I will report. But I have seen my timing belt guru do 15 of them, so I do not anticipate anything out of the ordinary, i.e., road hypnosis
With regards to the Taurus first I have a question..what does "swag" mean? But fuel economy was reasonable on most of the six or seven Sable/Taurus I owned. Around 20 in town and I saw as much as 29-30 on several long (once to Dallas Tx from Pa and once to Florida from Pa)trips. All were the 3.0 liter Vulcan engine and none of them required anything except alternators, waterpumps, on starter motor, and oil changes. The 87 wagon had the highest mileage but I also had an 87 LX sedan earlier that had 190K miles when sold.It too ran fine. Additionally there was an 87 Sable wagon the had around 160K miles when sold. The biggest(most expensive) issue were automatic transmissions. The sedan had the original transmission when sold @ 190K the Taurus wagon had a transmission explode at around 180K miles and it was replaced with a reman. The Sable was only a bit over 100K when the original went and the salvage yard replacement was on its way out at 160K. Yeah there were other issues, lots of them along the way but the 3.0 Vulcan V-6 in my opinion is/was one of Fords best.
First off I am a tad confused, You got 293k miles on one or several? Your follow up posts indicate several. Again, correct me if I am wrong.
I don't know how to say this but; alternators, starters, batteries, water pumps are sort of unscheduled, BUT scheduled maintenance items. However, anecdotally they do last however long they do last, i.e., do have a cost per cycle so to speak. If anyone is confused by this seemingly double talk, let me know. DIY folks and maintenance types do understand.
One of the things about 4 bangers is the timing belt change at app 100/105k. The good news, belts are more precise and obviously changed at the scheduled intervals refresh for another 100/105 mile cycle. The bad news is they stretch and can break and the design.
The older A-3 gen VW Jetta's put the water pump out of line. So in effect a water pump is good to go to at least 250,000 miles. BUT if it doesn't, you do not have to change the timing belt and is a simple ( less than 20 min) procedure vs a timing belt procedure of 2/6 hours. Both Honda (75 plus shipping) and A-4 gen (60 plus shipping) put the water pump in line. So even though it can be good to go to 200,000/250,000 miles it makes sense to change the water pump (early) at the 100/150 mile cycle (SAME LABOR COST). The reason is IF it does leak you have to perform the same belt change to change the water pump.
Since I have in the past run app 250,000 on a 1970 VW Beetle (bought used in 1971 with 10,000 miles, sold in 1978) and on conventional oil (1.5/3k mile OCI's). Geez every time I turned around, I was changing oil. For the oil filter super freaks, it might bear mentioning, the Beetle's air cooled engine didn't even have an oil filter! It quite literally used a stainless steel "mosquito screen". Oxymoronically the motor oil was used as an air screen, pre intake manifold.
I also ran a 1987 Toyota Landcruiser, 4 speed manual app 250,000 miles on Mobil One 5w30 oil with 15,000 OCI's.
So I think I will target 420,000 miles on the Civic (4 timing belt changes) . I will keep the same targets for the Jetta. Incidently a brand new TDI diesel engine is app $4,200.
Those are reasonable targets - the first engine in my 1987 Golf lasted 429,000 miles....
I'm about to buy my first car, had (in my mind) settled on a 2009 VW Jetta S, but after reading some of the posts on the VW forums, I'm not so sure.
Another car I was considering is a Honda Civic, but we have one (2000), and there are many little things about it that annoy me - the tiny trunk, the noisy and bumpy ride, the ridiculous horn, and we have also had a million little things break on it, most recently the A/C which would cost a fortune to replace.
Any advice?
Change miles to HOURS.
Your comments give me a sense that either you got a lemon Civic or more likely, just fix things when they no longer work.
So for example, my Civic at 76,000 miles has been on the one hand EXCELLENT, but on the other hand, I have needed tires at 74,300 miles and three alignments. (we are not curb wackers). Compare this against a VW Jetta TDI that did NOT need an alignment at 100,000 miles and the oe tires are still rolling @ 111,000 miles. I run 20,000 /25,000 miles OCI's for the Civic/Jetta TDI respectively. At LIKE (76,000 ) mileage, while I have been satisfied with both, the Honda's consumable parts seem to wear 2 to 3 times FASTER.
"Your comments give me a sense that either you got a lemon Civic or more likely, just fix things when they no longer work."
How is one supposed to fix things before they break?
My husband is in charge of the Honda, and he takes it for all it's maintenance appointments, but it really has been one thing after another that has been going on it (forget what the thing is called that makes it sound like a tractor (English is not my first language), but that's been a problem several times, along with other non-life threatening issues, but annoying nonetheless). On the other hand, my sister-in-law had a Honda Accord for 10 years, and nothing broke on that. She says she probably spent a total of $300 on it during all those years.
I am also wondering if people are more likely to post comments when they have bad experiences rather than good. I guess I'll just have to go with my gut feeling once I test drive one.
While your quote might seem oxymoronic, indeed it is NOT. It is really a matter of listening, watching, etc. The car is really "talking to " you. It is really a matter of whether one choses to listen. So for example, you point out your husband is in charge of the maintenance. But indeed if he/she/it is not the primary or alternative driver, it is truly the responsibility of the primary driver (aka YOU).
I will give you an example, as much as I brought up my daughters to know, listen for , understand, shown and watch them actually check what is important: they would rather go to funerals, have root canal, etc. (you get the drift, I hope)
So one car was 300 miles/600 miles round trip AWAY, the other is currently 100/200 miles away. One made the 300 mile trip , 2 quarts LOW !!!!!!! GEEZ !! So I asked her when was the LAST time she checked the dipstick, !?? I mean if the engine burns up, its HER stuck in the middle of no where (some place in Santa Barbara/LA area) !!?? Not a good place for ANYBODY to be!!!
So to get back to Honda vs Jetta, the chance seems lower with the Honda in getting a lemon/to lemonish. Of course that is no consolation if you truy have THE lemon (of whatever oem).
May I ask why you've limited your choices to the Civic and Jetta? There are some excellent vehicles out there in this price range if you aren't comfortable with purchasing either one.
go and buy a Honda pleaseeee I currently own a Jetta generation IV and I'm about to guy a 2009 Civic LX-S because of that. VW's are not total :lemon: but I've pretty much spend around 2000 dlls on reparations during the 5 years I've had it :sick: , this doesn't count the services.
VW's are really nice and super fast but even the tiniest issue will cost you an arm and a leg, on the other hand if you are filthy rich :shades: , buy yourself a VW or an Audi
Cheers then,
Steve R.
Both Civic and VW are nice. I have an 08 Jetta!! Love it! But, expensive to maintain, no issues yet, but that oil change sets you back some change.
I think I'm a little gun-shy with the VWs; I have a fear of being stuck paying for two of them and driving while holding my breath!
Civic's are OK head-on (the stuff they have to make strong to meet Federal rules) but when hit in the side or rear they are ... not very good (but better than, say, a Cavalier/Cobalt).
Of all the fatal car accidents near Vancouver one winter, half the vehicles that people died in were Civics.
As an RCMP mountie whose job is highway patrol in the mountains said to me: "I'd rather be in a German car with a seat-belt than a Japanese apple-crate with an air-bag" ... and this guy has lots of firsthand knowledge of "real car-crash tests".
You know how our rain varies, and you're always changing the variable intermittent wipers to match?
No problem on a Honda ... variable intermittent is not available! (just one intermittent delay for the world)
Lets check the other features:
VW: Twin cams, Honda: single cam
AUDIO
10 speakers in VW, 4 speakers in Honda
INTERIOR
VW: Black or Tan. Honda: Grey or .... grey
The following is a list of VW Rabbit features (standard unless optional specified)
optional sunroof: Not Available on Honda Civic
intermittent wiper: Not Available on Honda Civic
rear wiper: Not Available on Honda Civic
heated seats: Not Available on Honda Civic
split-folding rear seat: Not Available on Honda Civic
remote power locks: Not Available on Honda Civic
One-touch power windows: Not Available on Honda Civic
heated mirrors: Not Available on Honda Civic
power-adjusted mirrors: Not Available on Honda Civic
Cruise control: Not Available on Honda Civic
Speed Proportional power steering: Not Available on Honda Civic
rear cup-holders: Not Available on Honda Civic
cargo-area tie-downs: Not Available on Honda Civic
power-outlet, cargo area: Not Available on Honda Civic
center console: Not Available on Honda Civic
rear-seat "easy entry" (front seat slides out of the way in 2-door model) Not Available on Honda Civic
optional floor mats: Not Available on Honda Civic
cargo area mats: Not Available on Honda Civic
external temp. indicator: Not Available on Honda Civic
SAFETY FEATURES
rear disc brakes: Not Available on Honda Civic (except SI ... which is a pile more money)
brake assist: Not Available on Honda Civic
traction control: Not Available on Honda Civic
stability control: Not Available on Honda Civic
signals in mirrors: Not Available on Honda Civic
remote anti-theft alarm system: Not Available on Honda Civic
So, for the same price, the Civic has 1/2 the features of a base Rabbit, and isn't as safe.
(of the extra-high safety rated cars, 1/2 are VW/Audis)
No wonder the Japanese are profitable!
Just thought you'd like an apples-to-apples comparison.
Also re an earlier post re side crash safety, the Civic got "Good" (best") on the tough IIHS side impact crash test, so it is no slouch there.
All of what you say is true for US models, but maybe its different in Canada on SOME things. However, I'm looking at Honda-Canada's website for my info on the Civic, not VWs. To our friend who posted earlier, check out this link. It'll prove VW is untruthful/misinformed about the Civic. Click here to see it! Disc Brakes? Heated Leater Seats? Rear Armrest with Cupholders? Stability Control? Variable-Speed Intermittent Wipers? Yep, all available. I'd list more, but don't have the time to do so.
Not picking a fight here, just trying to help you be more informed. :shades:
Best regards,
TheGraduate
I would think there would not be that much difference in available equipment in Canada, though, e.g. no power locks? mirrors? cruise? floor mats (even as options)? And Canada gets features we sometimes don't get, e.g. some cars up there routinely get heated seats and mirrors but US cars don't (an example that comes to mind is the lowly Accent, that has heated seats available in Canada but not the US).
Edit: I replied to your original post, not the edited version.
I noticed errors about the VWs too, where it lists something as "not available" when its either optional or standard.
But it sounds like they are WAY off on the Civic features!
I wonder why, for a car site, Edmunds has so many errors in its specs for cars?
BTW: I love Honda's engines and they have good handling and are sportier than most Japanese cars. But I don't like the tinny doors ...
Comparing a Jetta to an Accord makes sense.
(I used the compare feature with a Jetta 4-cyl. against a high-end Accord 4-cyl. and they were within a couple hundred on price and almost EXACTLY the same on features)
So those make sense to me ... but a Civic vs. a Jetta ... well, they're not even close in features, size, price .... I don't get it.
I compared a 5-cyl, manual Jetta against a 4-cyl, manual Accord.
Here: /www.edmunds.com/...../VehicleComparison....
The Honda has more HP, the Jetta has more Torque, they have similar performance.
And they have almost IDENTICAL features.
As close to the same car as you can get.
The main difference is that the Accord price is roughly $5,500 higher than the Jetta's price.
Comparing a Jetta to a Civic makes sense--but be sure to compare equivalent trim levels.
Comparing a Jetta to an Accord makes little sense--you are comparing a compact to a much larger car, with a full-sized interior. Also you happened to compare a loaded Accord, with leather, to a lesser-trim Jetta. No wonder the Accord cost more. Try comparing a Passat to an Accord, with similar equipment, and see what you get.
A base Passat has most of the features of a loaded Accord.
Same with a Jetta.
The Accord is a nice car, and has more room in the back seat than the Jetta, but the Jetta has a larger trunk and can handle more weight safely (better handling).
The Passat doesn't compete with the Accord ... it competes with the Benz C-class and BMW 3-series.
Still, I'd take an Accord over a Camry any day
A base Jetta has a leather interior? I don't think so. A base Jetta has power seats? No. A base Jetta has 17" alloys? No. A base Jetta has a moonroof? Nope. A base Jetta has auto climate control? Nein.
Seems a base Jetta is missing many features of a loaded Accord.
-Paul
Argue feature lists all you want. A Jetta costs more, but its more car, much safer, and lasts longer, especially if you get the diesel, which is a no-brainer because its cost of ownership is lower and re-sale much higher (VW resale is highest in the industry).
Funny thing, but people who switch from Japanese to German cars almost never go back. Ask one of them why. They're easy to find. VW sells almost a million cars a month.
That is funny; its a statistically insignificant thing, but the two people I know who have owned VW for any length of time have said it would be their first and last; they can't afford the 4-figure repairs that keep hitting well before the 100k mi mark.