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Go tell that to Ford & GM - while technically your statement may be right many auto companies run out of customers before they reach their production capacity.
You needn't try to defend Lexus with mere speculation. Others here have already posted the point that all manufacturers have limits.... but do you really think that BMW is just pumping out as many 3-series as physically possible? Do you really think they're trying to pump out as many units as the Camry or Accord or Explorer? Of course not....
BMW's been in the luxury auto market for a while, so they know what they're doing... and they certainly aren't going to flood the market and bring down value.
From Top Gear (European Car Program): "In twenty years that car [the Z4] will be remembered as forward thinking, but this car will be remembered as - well it won’t be remembered... As a machine, it’s fantastic. The engineering might be great, but the snob value of the badge is even stronger. But there’s a problem with that; the very reason you buy a BMW; because it’s exclusive and different; well it just isn’t, not anymore."
Just playing devil's advocate (or, being really honest; however you choose to look at it)
Let's be honest. If BMW could sell more 3-Series, they would. It is not like this is a Ferrari we are talking about. The 3-Series is just --- Some Car.
It's true! Far from rarity, guys.
Can you imagine the BMW product managers standing around the boardroom table with their notepads finding ways to make the car sell less by making imperfections in it so that they can see less 3-Series on the road, making it more exclusive, and therefore, a hotter product?
C'mon, the car starts at what, $29k? It is bound to get customers, but not bound to be the car everyone wants, and that is why it sells less; product managers know this, and that is why they alott a certain amount to production. This is because some people just don't want it.
Personally, I find that the IS is much more attractive; so do European journalists. Both 4Car and Top Gear find the 3-Series styling is weak compared to the IS. 4Car says that the IS is the best styled saloon car they have ever seen, and Top Gear named the IS their "car of the year".
It seems the European car enthusiasts like the Japanese car more than the European car.
Umm, I was replying to this statement by brightness:
"The IS number may well be production limited. 8k times 6 is 48k (Feb being a short month), very close to IS production goal of 50k units."
So why are slamming "BMW lovers"?? I believe it's pretty common knowledge here that brightness is all for Lexus and not BMW. Isn't he the one that brought this "limited production" stuff into the discussion?
European journalists are not my concern, if I remember correctly, the majority of them prefer the VW GTI (which is isn’t too bad).
By the way I would argue the 3 series is just as exclusive as the IS. I don't think one sees exclusivity in cars below $250,000. Limited production does not make a car exclusive.
Me: "Nothing."
IS looks like a Civic? :surprise: That is such an insult!
I realize he didn't say anything directly about BMW.... but when I pointed out that 3-series numbers far exceeded IS numbers, then he replied to that saying that the IS numbers are lower because it is "limited production."
First of all, I wasn't aware that the IS was a rare collectors car with limited availability. Second of all, I can't imagine that brightness' interpretation of the numbers was based on anything more than speculation and assumptions.
They are not trying to sell 100,000 units the first year - in order to do that they would need to discount the price - plus spend more on marketing - since the IS is a VERY small % of Toyota they would rather sell 50,000 cars and make (I would guess) $5,000 on each rather than sell 100,000 and make $2,000.
Compare how important it is to BMW to sell the 3 Series VS how vital the IS sales are to Toyota. There is no comparison - one major stumble with the 3 series and BMW (the whole company) is in trouble. If Toyota had to write off the whole IS project it would only be a small set back -
It is normal for Japanese companies to take small steps - learn - adjust - move forward - repete.
In 10 years Toyota will be selling more "IS" type cars than BMW - its just a matter of time - Toyota is a better company - BMW should be worried - even if some loyal customers are not.
IS sales are vital to the perception that Toyota can compete.
"In 10 years Toyota will be selling more "IS" type cars than BMW - its just a matter of time - Toyota is a better company -"
It is? Based on what? It is larger..larger does not equal better? Look at Ford and GM for examples of how large companies can make big mis-steps.
I am not saying larger is better - but I don't think smaller is better either (do you?) - and staying the same is as good as being dead.
The problem with GM & Ford (well one of their many problems) is the fact that they are shrinking. They sell fewer cars every year. If they (GM & Ford) sold the same number of total cars in 2005 (as they just did) but if it was a 10% increase (rather than a 10% decrease) over 2004 sales they would be in much better shape. It is really about growth rate - not just size. Steady growth year after year is the best.
The thing you seem to be missing is - as the number of Lexus IS type cars sold grows what impact will that have on BMW? Can BMW continue to grow as fast as they would have if Lexus did not intro the IS? I think the answer is pretty obvious. So as Lexus grows BMW is hurt - not saying all of Lexus sales will come out of BMW's hide - but some will.
What Toyota (Honda & a few others) did to GM & Ford COULD also be a preview of BMW's fate. I say could because no one know for sure -
As far as IS sales being vital to Toyota - sure it would be a black eye if they had to stop selling the IS - but what would BMW do if it lost all of the 3 Series sales - I mean besides file for bankruptcy -
Me too and I don't have a crystal ball. Every new model introduction always has an impact to everybody. For all I know Infiniti might rule the world with it's G37 with sales of Lexus and BMW competing models going to zero.
"but what would BMW do if it lost all of the 3 Series sales - I mean besides file for bankruptcy - "
That to me sounds like wishful thinking and I feel confident in projecting that's not going to happen. People predicted the demise with the introduction of the E60. The E60 is now ruling the segment in sales, despite the negative reviews by the press, the people like it. The E90 is also a hit. Additional engines and models will be coming out shortly to round out the lineup. Remember the last time someone tried to take over the world the empire crashed...you're never too big to make a few bad missteps.
BMWs greatest strength is it is not trying to be Toyota.
Not trying to say that Lexus will take all of BMW's business - but the damage is done at the margin - when the growth rate slows it changes the business - new projects become harder to get approved - maybe they try and get a few more years out of a platform to save a few bucks. Plus when they allocate the cost of a new model over 75,000 units per year rather than 100,000 it hurts profitability - maybe causes a price increase - which ends up hurting sales even more - next thing you know you are in a GM/Ford death spiral.
Okay I agree. The flagship product to any company is much more important than the product that produces a fraction of it's sales. The 3 series is the flagship product of BMW.
What I am laughing at is the hypothecial prognistications that BMW is already in a death spiral. Seems to me the last time I heard that was in 2002 when the G35 was introduced. Four years later not only did BMW not die they came back with a one, two punch. They will soon come out with another knock-out punch. No doubt they have to stay on their toes.
Disclaimer: I don't work for BMW, don't have any stock in the company and am not on the board. I just like their prodct. I like to see small companies defending their turf, similiar to David and Goliath. Hint: Toyota is Goliath.
Lexus is about luxury cars that offer a better ownership exerience than Mercerdes. The original IS was developed as an attractor to a new sort of Lexus customer, one that was interested in performance. Toyota is the largest automotive company in the world. They got that way by being very, very good at what they do. The new IS is way better than the original.
While I don't think Lexus will swallow BMW, they offer an alternative product that competes squarely with the acknowledged market leader in this segment. If BMW is to continue as a mainstream (vice a niche brand), they need to continue to develop and compete, which is good for consumers!
I am a very happy new owner of a certified pre-owned 2005 M3 coupe 6-speed, which I picked up for a couple thousand more than either the 330i or IS350 would have cost. A lot of different opinions have been expressed here, and I do not intend my comments/opinions to be taken as disrespectful to any other poster. So, without further ado:
For me, driving a "sports" sedan/coupe/car with an automatic transmission would be totaly frustrating. It would be like one of my girlfriends, who is a gourmet chef, trying to cook a meal in a pushbutton microwave. I appreciate that 90% of the public drives automatics. And probably 90% cook in microwaves. But for those that want to really enjoy all elements of driveing a sports sedan/car or truly experience what a gourmet meal can taste like, they are equally inferior utensils.
I strongly recommend the Skip Barber driving school for anyone that wants to have a much higher appreciation for driving ANY vehicle. My dad insisted on it when I was getting my license 9 years ago. I was cocky back then and told him OK, but I didn't expect to learn much - I was a straight A student, scored over 1500 on my SATS, was a nationally ranked gymnist and had just broken my school record in the 1,500 meters. How hard could it be to learn to drive a car?? I ended up eating my words. There is no way that you can learn by trial and (hopefuly not fatal) error what the SB teachers/coaches taught me. I took a second Skip Barber course with my brother two years ago, and my appreciation for controlling a 3,000+ lb car in high performance or accident avoidance situations went up another two levels. It is an enigma that ANYONE buying a $40,000+ sports sedan and thinking that a $2,000 navigation system is a valuable option wouldn't gladly spend a similar amount to improve their own driving skills by orders of magnitude.
On the IS350 vs. the 330i (6-speed) debate, it appears that a lot of posters want to convince others that one is objectively better than the other. Or that Lexus is better than BMW or vice-versa. For me, they are really no more comparable than a microwave and Viking range would be for my girlfriend (who drives a Camry). I have no difficulty accepting that she drives an automatic and would sooner travel to France for a wine tasting than take Skip Barber. She accepts that I am not likely going to renovate my condo kitchen and install a 6-burner Viking with double oven. We get along great. Perhaps there is a lesson there?
If Lexus was a true luxury sedan it would come with a microwave?
I live in Winnipeg, the capital of straight and flat roads, and slow drivers. Having a manual transmission sports car would be a total pain in the rear end. Maybe when I can afford to buy a house in Gainesville, Florida and transfer to my company's other branch will I consider the thrill of a manual. As it stands, having an MT for the daily commute is just too much of a hassle, especially since about 1/2 of the way to work is moving at a crawl.
The last bit - they are really no more comparable than a microwave and Viking range. You mean, the IS is the microwave? Hmmm. I know that you had said before that guys who like the IS must have no skill in driving and only excercise their right foot. I will assume that is what you mean by the comparo then. It seems a little insulting and judgemental to me.
People up in Winnipeg have cars? I thought you all traveled by sleighs pulled by dogs.... :P
People in Winnipeg, in general, are quite tight with their money spent on cars. I have seen 2 e90s and 1 IS so far; the IS being the more attractive of the two.
I guess I just don't understand these cars at all. They are compromised as sports cars because they weigh too much (or are saddled with a slushbox), and they are compromised as luxury cars because they are too firm and small. So why even bother with a sporty sedan?
$32,000 buys you a CPO 2001 Lexus LS430 - that's what I'd choose if I spent most of my driving time sitting in rush hour traffic.
:P
Or, a black 2002 Lexus SC 430 with 77 kms for $48,875. Sounds very enticing. It is, btw, the most reliable car in the world IIRC.
I also have a good friend that is an exceptional cook. He doesn't think twice of working 60 hour weeks at a high pressure biotechnology firm and then he and his wife spending 3 hours preparing and cooking up a gourmet dinner for a few guests on a Saturday night. But his incredibly culinarily accomplished, but athletically challenged wife absolutely refuses to learn how to drive a stick, claiming it's not worth it. Much to his dissapointment.
I couldn't begin to want to go through the classes that would be necessary just to learn how to make the sauces they use for their creations. But I can drive a stick in my sleep in crawling rush hour traffic, and am thrilled to be able to row my own through winding Rock Creek Parkway.
There is a lesson - to each their own.
P.S. Mikeguiller - I suppose I should learn that lesson, but your comment about the Lexus SC430 being reliable? I hope so. It is, bar none, the most Buick like boat ride disguised as a sport coupe/GT ever produced. Purely in my opinion.
I have never driven one and would venture to say, even, that my parent's I4 Camry CE has a more sporty ride than the SC 430. There is just something about having a hardtop convertible with a big V8 and luxurious interior that would be still fun to drive through the desert with the top down. Sorry, I was just dreaming....
Deserts you say? What part of Canada were you dreaming about?
My dream consists of driving a BMW330i, ok forget it make it a Porsche 959(it's a dream anyways) on highways and roads without speed limits. Unfortunately those dreams cannot be in Canada.
Fiction: My dream was about Manitoba.
Shoot me in the face when I start having dreams about Manitoba, please.
It was more along the lines of headin down to Vegas after pickin up an hombre in Vanc. A road trip would be nice... Anybody here seen 'The Hill Have Eyes'?
:surprise:
I don't think you are thinking this through. Study the history of these 2 carmakers and you'll learn that BMW did, indeed, base much of its success on a small car platform. Remember the BMW 1600 => 2002? BMW made no pretenses to being a luxury car maker in the vein of the dominant luxo cars of the time.
Unlike Lexus, which was a marketing concept from Toyota to move their market presence uptown, BMW has always been a performance-oriented firm that focused on smnaller platforms. Even early 7-Series were about the size of today'e e60. Of course, everyone makes an SUV these days, but the X3/5 are anything but trucks
So... of course the 3-Series is important to BMW. This platform is the core of the company, with variants up to the M3 in performance capability. The IS was Toyota/Lexus' way of saying that they did not want to leave potential revenue on the table by only having the LS "bread and butter" platform. They wanted some of what made BMW a success, which is an affordable "sweet-spot" sport sedan. The GS splits the difference and has yet to set the enthusiast market on fire.
Albeit, you must be a Hobbit to fit in the IS, it is a nice piece of work for what it is and it represents the Lexus way of doing things in much the same way the 3-series reflects the BMW approach to doing things. Different strokes...
I won't even reply to the GM/Ford death spiral association with BMW :P
lol! Irony like that always cracks me up.... :P
but the link below also involves a subscription to WSJ.com(no I am not paid to promote the Wall Street Journal).
The following excerpt from the Wall Street Journal gives a fantastic description on why the IS350 cannot even compare to a BMW330i:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB114195150869994250.html?mod=autos_4
A list of the car's statistics offered this particularly impressive number: 306 horsepower, from a six-cylinder engine. That's the kind of muscle we expect from big V8 engines, and it far outpaces the 255-horsepower motors found in the BMW and the Audi. Surely, this drive would be more fun than most.
Well, that statistic may have encouraged us to get ahead of ourselves. The longer we spent driving the Lexus, the more we thought it might be a case of the numbers not quite adding up to the total we'd expected.
Despite performing all the requisite sport-sedan tasks and beating its similarly priced competitors in terms of power, the IS came up short in an admittedly subjective aspect: conveying the joy of driving. No matter how we drove the Lexus, we never felt much of a connection with the road. Lexus cars have a reputation for insulating -- or isolating -- their occupants from the outside world. That can be a plus for a big luxury car, but in a sport sedan we expect a seat-of-the pants feeling, and we didn't get it from the IS 350.
After all, we've enjoyed driving cars with automatics -- or even models with too much electronic wizardry -- when a winning vehicle lies beneath the gadgets. Somehow, the IS just doesn't hang together to create what we'd call a driver's car.
dewey: If I provide an article that contradicts the WSJ article, do I then win? I have, so, who is right?
Oh, and PS! I think I may have found Bangle's true design inspiration for the e90!
And very impressive background too! Is that the Four Seasons Hotel in the town of Carman, Manitoba?
At any rate, if I wanted the appearance of luxury before sport, no doubt the 350/250 fits the bill. If I wanted sport before luxury the 3 series gets the nod.
Your friends' opinions and my friends' opinions (who think BMW quality is bulletproof) dont mean much in terms of judging BMW reliability. What matters are the views of thousands of owners that are reflected in the stats of Consumers Report and JD Powers. Based on these two sources the 3 series are very reliable cars.
Also my own experience of owning a BMW e46 these past 7.5 has been blissful with no major reliablity issues! :P
And as KdShapiro pointed out long term ownership of Lexuses are not exactly cost-free or pain-free.
Just because the IS is not as good as a 3 series does not mean the IS is second rate. It's a very good car, but it just does not come close to the 3 series. Nothing wrong with that considering no other sports sedan in this segment comes the 3 series.
Maybe in a few decades or so Lexus will be able to manufacture a car that is fun to drive.
Patience is a virtue!
I don't understand why BMW enthusiasts get so freaking defensive whenever quality competition, especially from Japan (inc the G35 too), comes around.
ANd there are also people who believe the moon is made out of blue cheese. You can believe what you like but that does not change the reality that the 3 series is the benchmark sports sedan in the industry.
Nobody comes close to the 3 series, except maybe the upcoming Infiniti G37?
Let us wait and see the lot life of the IS next year? :P