BMW 3-series vs Lexus IS

mikegiller

Nope, I have simply driven one several times, for good measure of course.

Lack of RWD feel? Really? First time I have heard that one.

kdshapiro

"and not a single one of those people who will bring up a C&D review"

Which one are you referring to? The one where the "crippled" 330i won the round? You really want to beat that dead horse some more?

kdshapiro

Seems like a lot of posts are sinking to the LCD.

"Your little complex makes just about as much sense as i-Drive! "

Well that is certainly keeping it about the vehicles then and not about the posters.
I-drive has gotten positive reviews from those who actually have used it. I'm assuming from your posts you haven't driven an E90 and all you are doing is regurgitating magazine article opinions on i-drive.

pg48477

Why don't you go ahead and let us know what are the IS faults?

lexus_jn

Agree... BMW fans can disagree with the below as well :-).

"Nothing comes close to the 3-series "...it's full of balonies :-)

http://www.autobytel.com/content/shared/articles/templates/index.cfm/article_pag- e_order_int/10/article_id_int/907

kdshapiro

LOL. Ford Thunderbird was also car of year.

In case you missed it, here is our very own Edmunds IS vs 3 series comparo:

http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/Comparos/articleId=109021

pg48477

Never heard of autobytel.com, in any case, if you noticed Lexus advertising is right on top. Got to tell you something about the review, no .

whofan67

My feeling on the matter is that from a styling perspective, BMW reached its zenith a couple of years back. Now they are falling away a bit. The new models do not look as good as the 2004 and previous models. The I-Drive is horrible and the interior cabin needs alot of work. But no other car in its class feels as good to drive. If you love to drive, the BMW is the way to go.
The Lexus, in previous years... I hated Lexus because they felt detached from the driving experience in the name of cushy perfection. The new IS is a huge step forward for Lexus. The interior is about as perfect as it gets. The ventilated seat are a big plus and they do work. If you live anywhere where the outside temp gets to 90 degrees and higher, they are worth every penny. The Mark Levinson sound system is the best stock system on the market. The driving experience was what I was most surprised by. The IS350 felt strong and while driving I felt very much in touch with the road and fun to drive. The IS250 is the perfect car for those who want luxury over performance. 208HP is ok for throttle jockeys but fine for 80% of the people who drive sports sedans in the USA.

Overall...The IS is the better car but if it is driving pleasure you crave.... BMW is still the king.

mikegiller

Nope. You missed my point. I should have said "R&T" instead to make sure that wasn't brought up as those were not my intentions.

mikegiller

To be a true sports car these are its faults (it does amazingly well above average as an everyday driver for a single person (without a family), or a person with a family that does not use it as a family vehicle): steering is not as pure as they could have made it (does not mean terrible, or even floaty), VDIM cannot be disabled without a complex procedure, lack of a manual tranny, and there is too much isolation of feel in the cabin from the engine/exhaust (does not mean complete isolation or no fun). I would say that the intrusive stability control would be the biggest fault of all. Most of us here have seen what happens when VDIM is shutoff.

mikegiller

If you know anything about advertising then, yes it does. What it means, is that Lexus bought an advertising space after being contacted by autobytel.net, pitched on the bullet that there is an article about the IS 350 being the editor's choice. Clearly this would be a perfect opportunity to pursue Lexus' target market and gain more exposure instead of maybe giving up the spot to a competitor or a company that has little relevance to the subject article. Then again, what do I know, I only work in advertising. Things don't neccesarily work the way you think things suspiciously work.

neko608

Yes I drove an E90 330i at MotorWerks in Barrington, IL (last Friday, actually), and that was a tongue-in-cheek joke. I know people that work for Knauz motors in Lake Bluff that hate it too!

pg48477

You might be right, but perhaps it could be the other way around. We’ll buy an advertising space, if you give us positive review. In any case I don’t care about review in some unknown website.

lexus_jn

"The new models do not look as good as the 2004 and previous models. The I-Drive is horrible and the interior cabin needs alot of work

Overall...The IS is the better car but if it is driving pleasure you crave.... BMW is still the king"

Many people have observed the same thing just like you ..Unfortunately, BMW's die-hard fans are still in the state of denial :-)

lexus_jn

What????

pg48477

I have to agree with you here, if Lexus will fix above mentioned faults I would defiantly consider one.

On the other hand, if BMW would keep interior of E46 in the E90 I would not even look at other cars. No it's not the i-Drive, which I think is very good at least in 5 series, the design itself terns me off. People say it will grow on me and is very functional, but I don't see it, at least for know.

mikegiller

I agree with you here as well, but not completely! :P How about keeping the same theme as the e46 interior and evolving it instead of either creating something so contraversial (In my opinion), or keeping it the same. Why make iDrive when there is a completely logical way of operating things in the first place? Why have something grow on you after reading the thick manual and practising with it when there is a logical solution people have been familiar with for decades? I just don't get what they are doing with new BMWs. The last 3 series looked damned good, now it looks damned strange. The interior just makes me want to look the other way. No matter how good it drives, it is just not a car I feel comfortable being in. That is the truth of how I feel. Some agree, others disagree; that is life. Anyways, good night everyone.

pg48477

BMW die-hard fans don't care about other cars unless they offer the same or better driving dynamics, Lexus is not there yet and you know it.

What make an IS a better car, more HP? It's smaller, yet can't match performance of 3 series (performance is not just 0-60) and IS cost as much as 3, so there is no value advantage. Interior and exterior are both subjective, I personally like exterior of 3 much better, but will take IS interior over 3. So, in reality the only objective aspect is performance, BWM wins it hand down.

pg48477

IMO, things should grow on you, otherwise they become outdated very fast. And as much as some people like IS styling today, in a year from know it will just be another car. BMW styling on the other hand has some character, it looks good know and will look even better a year from know.

lexus_jn

"Yes I drove an E90 330i at MotorWerks in Barrington, IL (last Friday, actually), and that was a tongue-in-cheek joke. I know people that work for Knauz motors in Lake Bluff that hate it too"

Perhaps you don't know but there was a fatal accident a couple years ago involving a MotorWerks's salesman and three "enthusiasts" who were testing out the new BMW's (not sure about the model)...After passing thru the intersection at Algonquin & Barrington Road, the "enthusiast" kid who drove the car somehow lost control and hit the light pole near the Willow Creek Church. Sadly, the salesman died instantly after the crash..I am sure most car salesmen at MotorWerks would avoid that route and tell you to use Route 59 & Dundee (from Barrington to 59) instead.

neko608

That's awful

I'd imagine the intersection of Dundee/Algonquin/59 would be a bit more dangerous. We just went out to 59 on Dundee, then north to the next street, and back.

lexus_jn

"BMW die-hard fans don't care about other cars unless they offer the same or better driving dynamics, Lexus is not there yet and you know it."

No comment :-). Keep craving about it. You know damn well that IS is a better car but still deny it

What make an IS a better car, more HP? not just HP...but faster :-)

Performance: BMW has an edge but it's a close call. IS beats BMW on straight line but BMW takes corner nicer. BMW is quite responsive and has tighter steering control while Lexus's engine smoothness and seamless transmission is top-notch.
Cost: IS costs a couple grands less (given both cars are fully loaded)
Exterior: Many have agreed that IS styling is much better, sexier, 3-series's new design is a step ...going backward...and this is no joke.

Interior: Even Altima's interior looks more luxurious than 3-series's. The BMW's strereo system sucks big time with just only 1-disc CD player and not so great sound quality.
BMW's leather seats quality are no better than elephant skin. The cup-holder design is just plain stupid. I-Drive is so terrible that even the salesman told me not to purchase it.

Reliability: BMW is among the worst in luxury sedans segment...but not as bad as Mercedes's. BMW fans do bash IS with things like "boring", "not fun to drive" ..but I have heard many BMW owners (including my close friends at both Verizon & HP) use the words like "Junks", "POS", "Even worse than my wife's civic" to describe the what so-called "Ultimate Driving Machine"

pg48477

I’m glad we agreed on something, BMW does have an edge there. Everything else you mentioned is subjective. If an audio system is so important to you, get a TL

neko608

Well if handling is so important to you get a Lancer Evo!

whofan67

The IS is the better care IMHO. BMW has taken their models in wierd styling directions in the past couple of years. The 3 at least gets the least of the ugly-stick beating the designers at BMW have seams to give their models lately. As for price... Lexus gives more than BMW before you add options. The Lexus IS250 price when you add the sport package and the premium sound system and GPS comes to $36,504. To get the same features in a 325i sedan puts the price at $41,015. Not the same at all. The IS250 does not supplant the 325i in the areas of performance but lets be real here... 80% of people who drive these cars aren't using them like they do in the commercials. They like the "idea" that they can which serves vanity more than anything else...But for freeway/sideroad driving, driver controls placement and overall quality which every publication statistics support, the IS is the better car. Yes the BMW is stronger at taking a curve at maximum speed but you never use the car in that way because you can't. I can't use it in LA because there are too many other cars around me. If everyone else would stay home and the CHP would get off my back, then having the BMW would be a better overall experience. Maybe if BMW would close down the PCH for a month just for me and my fellow BMW drivers for a weekend. Then maybe. But since the majority of my driving involves something called rush hour. I'd rather have a car with almost as good performance, better gas mileage, better interior appointments and better reliability. But thats just me.

kdshapiro

Lexus fans will attempt to bash the BMW on reliability. In fact, having lower reliability ratings does not translate into an unreliable car. If BMW was as bad as you are attempting to make them out, I don't think they would sell one car.

All of your opinions are just that...opinions. The only real facts are:

1. Lexus has better reliability.
2. BMW is more of a drivers car.

BMW has better styling, more functional interior and better driving dynamics.

As far as which is the better car, you can duke it out with the forum posters. BMW is the better sports sedan however.

kdshapiro

"Well if handling is so important to you get a Lancer Evo!"

That is just plain stupid.

mikegiller

I am finding that a very narrow bit of people like the 3 series styling.

You cannot go from hating the style to in a year liking it. It looks ugly to me inside, and boring but weird on the outside. I suppose being ugly to the eyes makes for a styling success down the pipeline?

The Firebird was ugly when it came out, and is still ugly.

All the European autojournalists that have commented on the IS's styling have said it is by far one of the best looking saloon cars they have ever seen. The same words you have spoken are exactly what the guys on Top Gear have said about the new 3 Series: "It is just 'Some Car; Mild Cheddar'"

whofan67

BMW has a more fuctional interior???

justify that statement please....

mikegiller

Couldn't have said it better myself.

mikegiller

"If BMW was as bad as you are attempting to make them out, I don't think they would sell one car."

Justify that statement using MB as the reference point of the arguement.

kdshapiro

None of these statements need to be justified. BMW is pushing cars out at nearly 100% capacity of their plants. Even though they have less capacity than Toyota, they are selling more cars in their target segment than Lexus is. (Let's not go into the fact the IS is a recent introduction, I didn't bring up the sales thing)

People are buying them and they are recognized for what they are performance oriented driving vehicles.

I'll put it to you to justify your opinions based on sales and reviews.

kdshapiro

BMW has a more functional interior. (I'll add IMO since this is a value judgement)

bdr127

All of your opinions are just that...opinions. The only real facts are:

1. Lexus has better reliability.
2. BMW is more of a drivers car.

Actually, since the IS is a brand new car, how do we know anything about long-term reliability? Lexus, as a brand, has a good reputation.... but the jury is still out for this (and any) new model.

mikegiller

In your opinion I guess your words don't need justification, but standing on the other side of the street, it is impossible to see the validity in that arguement. Mercedes quality sucks, but they sell. I was not attacking BMW reliability, but was simply refuting your choice of arguement.

mikegiller

Who knows? Maybe they attached it to a device that drove the car for 100k+ KMs and it didn't break down. But, that is just a guess.

whofan67

I guess since you said "IMO"

I do have a question.... how long did it take to get used to the A/C controls placed low below the shifter? I find the placement to be ill-advised.

One more... the radio controls... you like the controls being more complicated than they need to be? the small lcd? oops... thats two in one... sorry.

I can't resist... how about the GPS? You like the BMW system? Have you used the Lexus/Acura systems by way of comparison?

I'm just curious why you find the BMW interior more fuctional.

kdshapiro

I never put Navs in my vehicles, portables are the way to go - so I'm totally out of the game of which Nav is better.

For me, less clutter is more functional. The E90s have very nice functional interiors with good grade materials. I don't want to drive a car with a Lexus like interior.

thegraduate

I don't want to drive a car with a Lexus like interior.

I can't knock you there, because, after all, its your personal taste. Many, and I mean MANY car enthusiast magazines, editors, writers, etc...praise Lexus' interiors as some of the best in the busines; best quality materials, best tactile feel, great organization (with things like the GS300's idea of hiding buttons rarely ever used in a dash panel cleans up the space without a maddening computer system being needed).

You are in the minority,I'd be willing to bet.

My best car consists of elements from these others (its imaginary, ha)

The BMW's driving dynamics (steering, suspension)
The Lexus' engine, smoothness, with Legendary reliability (goes for Acura/Honda too)
The Acura TL's styling and interior room

whofan67

I hate portable navs... I used them for work

Less clutter... I don't like clutter either and the most upscale Lexus/Acura models have much clarity from their car's interior. More than their German counterparts I find. Why German car manufacturers need to have small knobs and controls for both radio and air-conditioning controls is beyond me. Lexus materials are outstanding as are BMW.

kdshapiro

"You are in the minority,I'd be willing to bet."

I don't think so. Two philosophies of interior design are represented, neither are better....I understand my preference is my preference.

neko608

Why is that plain stupid?

If handling and steering are all that is important to you the STI and EVO each feature the most responsive handling in the world.

kdshapiro

If horsepower is important to you the Mustang SC would fill the bill. Yet I don't see you talking about it.

ctalk

You are in the minority,I'd be willing to bet.

I just test drove the 330i/325i and IS350/IS250. The 330i just simply offered a better driving experience. The Lexus IS felt very nice, it is a big improvement. I really enjoyed the extremely powerful engine. But IMO, they haven't matched BMW's level of "driver enjoyment" Lexus still isolates you, but they are getting close to perfection. I really did enjoy the luxurious interior of the IS. But if I were to buy sport sedan, the 330i will be on the top of my list. To me, it offers enough luxury, comfort and pure enjoyment to be my perfect sport sedan.

whofan67

The operative word here is "sport". BMW wins... not by that much
Luxury, technology----IS wins

mikegiller

That is because neko wants the whole package, and that is why he likes the IS more than the 3 series, which emphasizes the handling part while ignoring the part that most people prefer, which is comfort and common sense. Many are buying the 3 because it is the cheapest BMW. BMW will, for now, have that on a Lexus.

ctalk

BMW wins... not by that much

Well that's your opinion, and I respect it. But IMO, the BMW doesn't just win by... not by that much

kdshapiro

See Mike - what you seem to miss is people weigh different aspects of each vehicle differently. BMWs will never have the same type of technology that Lexus includes, it will be advanced and there will be a lot of it (even more then Lexus), but it won't be an exact match feature for feature.

The HP gap will be closed with introduction of the new BMW V8 and 3.0L turbo(or whatever it will be). This back-and-forth-stuff about which car is better is pointless, because they are not the same vehicle and they offer two version of the driving experience. You pick the version you want.

"Many are buying the 3 because it is the cheapest BMW. BMW will, for now, have that on a Lexus."

That is by far one of the most condescending things you've said. Why didn't Lexus price the IS250 at $40K and the IS350 at $50K.

Because they wouldn't sell one.

mikegiller

What will you be using your BMW for, out of curiosity, that will require a competitive edge on road handling during the majority of your driving - to each his or her own of course.

mikegiller

It is true. You don't think there are people out there that don't want a BMW because it is a BMW? I just spoke with a sales manager today and she asked about the car that we are talking about today, the IS, and she said, "... it's a gorgeous car. When I was back in the Gainesville branch, my goal was to buy myself a BMW convertible, but instead I came to Winnipeg, and now I have a 4x4."

Some people, regardless of the reasons you bought your BMW, buy a BMW because it is a BMW. Condescending? No. Realistic? Yes!

I want an IS because it is a really nice car. I feel at peace inside it because the atmosphere that was created by the designers is a very pleasant one to be in. For me, that makes up for the fact that it isn't the best drivers' car out there.

I would never call anybody who bought the 3 an idiot. Some buy the 3 because it is a great drivers' car and they really want it because they have the opportunity to let it rip more often than others, but don't lie to us and tell us that everyone who bought it did so because the handling was superior to the competitions'.