come on now, the 3 series is a very well established car with a very strong customer base. BMW no doubt earned this.
The IS is selling EXTREMELY well, especially considering they were just launched in October. I believe (not 100% sure) that the 250 + 350 together are outselling the G35 coupe + sedan.
The arguments are getting pretty trite. 99.999% of anyone who should drive a 330i or an IS350 would tell you that you cannot go wrong with either choice.
"The arguments are getting pretty trite sic.. 99.999% of anyone who should drive a 330i or an IS350 would tell you that you cannot go wrong with either choice."
I agree with you 100%. Here is a summary of the conversation thus far:
1. Lexus doesn't need the 350 as BMW needs the 3 series. (Of course this has nothing to do with the price of tea) 2. BMWs are unreliable and the customer experience is lousy. (For a generalization it's a good one) 3. Lexus is the better car (no problem with that statement) 4. BMW is the better car (no problem with that statement either) 5. Lexus is more reliable (whole heartedly agree) 6. The e90 drives like it's on rails (whole heartedly agree) 7. BMWs are unreliable according to JDP and CR. (maybe a bit oversimplifying) 8. The BMW looks like an M35 or Kia and the Lexus looks like a Civic. 9. The IS is more technologically advanced than the 3 series. 10. The IS' interior is an advantage over the 3 series.
Do the little dance and it's completely different.
There IS a button to disable it up to 30mph, then it kicks back in. I wonder if a dealer can reprogram that? Maybe if we send enough letters in to Lexus they can offer it?
dude, get real...you just can't compare apples and oranges. 3-series has many trims and it's BMW's bread & butter. Only an oxymoron would not know that BMW is being outsold by Lexus in the US.
Well I think the clip shows that the VDIM should not be offered with an off-switch.
Assuming the person behind the wheel is moderately adept in driving, it appears that the car has balance issues, too much over steer something doesn’t look right; almost reminds me of a 60’s 911.
"Only an oxymoron would not know that BMW is being outsold by Lexus in the US."
A) Who said that BMW was outselling Lexus? The only sales figures I've seen posted here compare 2006 3-Series to the 2006 Lexus IS (which is keeping with the subject of this particular thread).
Sorry..don't see new 3-series on the list of 23 hottest selling models.
This measure is pretty much completely useless as far as measuring the hotness of a car. It reflects the manufacturers' ability to manage inventory more than anything else.
Sorry..don't see new 3-series on the list of 23 hottest selling models.
This measure is pretty much completely useless as far as measuring the hotness of a car. It reflects the manufacturers' ability to manage inventory more than anything else.
Most definitely.... Cuz, come on... The Buick Lucerne makes the Top 10, and the Dodge Sprinter Van makes the Top 20.
Have you felt that buzz about the new Sprinter?!?!?... Neither have I... :confuse:
dude, we're talking about the hottest selling models based on how long they spent on the dealer lots. If you use another criteria such as "models with the least discounts & incentives" then you'll have another different list. By all means, this has nothing to do with the hotness of a car even though the relation seems obvious in some particular models.
I saw both Aston Martin V8 Vantage & Vanquish V12 at the Chicago Auto Show back in Feb. They looked really impressive. I wish I could get behind the wheel of that 520 horsepower rocket (V12) :-)
Like I was stating before, this data mostly reflects the manufacturers' ability to manage inventory. For a more accurate indication or measurement of "hotness" you must have sales figures along with turnover time.
From the Detroit News today regarding car sales in March:
"J.D. Power and Associates' Power Information Network said every major automaker, aside from BMW AG, posted a decline in retail sales during the period. The survey tracks sales at more than 10,000 dealers nationwide and doesn't include sales to fleet customers."
Not necessarily significant, but some more fuel for the flames.
Only an oxymoron would not know that BMW is being outsold by Lexus in the US.
I am neither a oxy (whatever that is) nor a moron but what I do know is that BMW is by far the number one luxury car company in the USA.
And BMW is the number one luxury auto company in the world.
Is it any wonder why?
Everybody in the world(except N. America) does not take Lexus seriously as a luxury company--In Japan and Europe a Lexus is perceived merely as a rebadged Toyota and sales there are lacklustre.
The 3 series sales are booming at a double digit pace ever since the e90 was introduced. Not a shabby performance for the number one sports sedan, dont you think?
Looking solely at inventory figures as the degree of success for a car can best be described as silly, especially when a low volume car like the IS is at its early stages of intro.
How much are you willing to wager that the inventory figure for the IS will not increase as time goes by? I bet you it will.
"I am neither a oxy (whatever that is) nor a moron but what I do know is that BMW is by far the number one luxury car company in the USA."
I'm not interested in opinions which do not based on facts..rant as much as you like :-)
The fact is the Lexus has been the #1 selling luxury brand in the US 6 years in a row. As for status symbol, BMW is no where near Mercedes in US or the world. Well, only folks with tiny brain would consider buying cars from an unreliable luxury brand. Quality is very important for American people and they have spoken...That's why Lexus is so succesful here.
You made fun of Toyota/Lexus but it does not change the fact that they are still the richest automobile company in the world with enough cash to burn BMW on the hybrid war.
1)Well, only folks with tiny brain would consider buying cars from an unreliable luxury brand
Wow, only a member in mensa would make such an intellectually profound statement as above.
2)I'm not interested in opinions which do not based on facts..
It is a fact that BMW is the number one luxury auto company in the world. Not opinion but fact! It is a fact that BMW is the number one luxury car company in the USA. Not opinion but fact.
3) Points one and two above and your points about hybrids has nothing to do with the topic of this forum. So now how about we focus on the question related to the forum: IS versus 3 series?
Or do you wish to continue to revise your definitions of a oxy and a moron instead :confuse:
"It is a fact that BMW is the number one luxury auto company in the world. Not opinion but fact! It is a fact that BMW is the number one luxury car company in the USA. Not opinion but fact."
You called it "fact"..:-) The only fact that I know is "BMW is one of the most unreliable luxury brands in the world". That's fact. Live with it. The rest of the world might not know but Americans know it damn well.
Out of a poll of roughly 80,000 people in Europe, the top cars to own were (out of 159 models): #1 Honda S2000, #2 Lexus IS, #3 Lexus RX.
Looks like Europe have their red-necks as well ”Got me a Lexus” only in French.
Ok it was funny for me. :P
Anyway sales, particularly number of units sold, has NOTHING to do with my purchasing decision; as does popularity, or style poles.
If anything, I’d prefer a model with FEWER sales numbers. If everything else is equal, the exclusivity of only 5000 units compared to 100,000 units would make the model that much more appealing for me that is.
Of course there are regional disparities as well. You may have 100,000 unites sold in NA, but never see any in your particular area.
So I guess I do agree with you darn it that you shouldn’t care what the Europeans think particularly Top Gear.
"So I guess I do agree with you darn it that you shouldn’t care what the Europeans think particularly Top Gear."
YES! But boy are they funny!
Everyone likes their cars for their own reasons. Some of us think that the other person's reasons may be a little 'off', but whatever floats their boats, I guess.
This has gone beyond talking about the merits of the 3-SERIES and the IS350 and gone into needless bashing of the companies as a whole, as well as bashing the people who have an opinion towards one.
Not cool.
Who knows, maybe Dewey got some wasabi stuck in his throat once and declared a personal crusade against Japanese cars. It's really pretty silly.
Who are among the least reliable luxury brands then?
Well according to the JD powers dependability survey. The luxury brands near the bottom are Mercedes, Saab and Audi. Lexus at the top, and BMW still ahead of the "industry average."
I noticed Mercedes has been having reliability issues for a while.
Well, I guess it is settled right? BMW is not at the bottom of reliability, and that would be hard to argue.
I don't suppose Aston Martin is in there no? They have bad reliability problems, but just the styling and sound of the V8 are enough to seduce me and sell my soul to buy one (or wait 10 years until I could hopefully afford one).
Let's back off the confrontations -- there is no need. These are both fine vehicle and fine brands. What you choose is your personal preference. You don't need to justify that, nor do you need to stomp on the other brand.
And as most of you know, the personal comments are out of line. We're not here to talk about each other.
We need to get back to comparing the actual features and attributes of the subject vehicles and leave the brand-bashing and member-bashing at the door.
Out of a poll of roughly 80,000 people in Europe, the top cars to own were (out of 159 models): #1 Honda S2000, #2 Lexus IS, #3 Lexus RX.
Lexus sales in Europe are laughable. This Top Gear opinion poll may reflect European services and reliability views but when it boils down to voting with their wallets very few take Lexus seriously. Most vote for BMW, MB or Audi because reliability can be achieved with a Corolla or a Hyundai instead.
Likewise in Japan. Lexus sales are lacklustre there since luxury buyers seek more than reliability. The Japanese prefer Audi, BMW and MB performance and who can blame them?
Reliability is great when you buy appliances like vacuum cleaners and Lexuses.
Oh yes and I love wasabi more than sauerkraut anyday.
On to the IS. Can you seriously say that the IS is simply an "appliance"? Wait! Of course you can.
I don't know of a single unbiased person who would say that the IS 350 drives like an appliance with no feeling. The IS 350 is an invigorating car to drive and is very fun!
I don't know of a single unbiased person who would say that the IS 350 drives like an appliance with no feeling
In that case you have been re-reading your Top Gear and autobytel reviews abit too many times. Almost every reviewer complains about the IS VDIM, lack of manual tranny and road-feel.
Oh yes and we can disable the VDIM with that fancy foot dance routine. But personally I am a bit too old to be earning my drives with a dance routine.
"Most vote for BMW, MB or Audi because reliability can be achieved with a Corolla or a Hyundai instead."
Quality is still a luxury thing for the so called "most vote" :-). Yet Europeans do value the tradition and tend favor the brands with long history. Americans/Canadians on the other hand are more open and know what the word "quality" means for their money :-)
"Likewise in Japan. Lexus sales are lacklustre there since luxury buyers seek more than reliability. The Japanese prefer Audi, BMW and MB performance and who can blame them? "
Toyota did not sell/market Lexus brand in Japan in the past. They are doing it now and it won't take long for them to become #1 just like in the US.
who cares if IS drives like an appliance as long as it is still a better car then BMW 3-series. IS is faster, smoother enginee and seamless tranmission, more luxurious, smarter ergonomics, better styling (both interior& exterior), a bit less expensive but more in quality & reliability. One might have extra fun with BMW but you just never know when it's going break down (this bothers me greatly).
The points you have stated are exactly why I refered to an unbiased person. Neko brings up very good points to refute your... points.
VDIM does not make the car an appliance. Many have grumbled at the fact the Gallardo SE's TC cannot be turned off so it does not allow them to toss the car around like a Ferrari. The Gallardo SE also comes with paddle-shifters. For those two reasons alone the Gallardo SE is lesser of a driving car compared with the 3 Series. Or, is there a loophole somewhere in there for you to find? I am by no means comparing the IS 350 to a Lamborghini, but I use the example to show that your point is not a relevant reason to dismiss the IS as a simple appliance.
Attributes such as "razor sharp handling" (Edmunds) and "stable at extremes" (Road & Track) describe the IS 350, but not by all; this seems to be a car not everyone will agree on.
The following sums up the IS 350 very well, and what several of us have been trying to say (Remember, this is one of the sources you swear by):
"On the track, the IS 350 feels right at home, stable in the extreme and benefiting from firmer springs and larger-diameter double-tube shock absorbers than those of the larger GS sedan. In hard driving, the Vehicle Dynamics Integrated Management kicks in when the car begins to understeer or oversteer. Lexus says this latest iteration of VDIM — which monitors steering angle, yaw rate, wheel speed, brake pressure, brake stroke and works with the electronic throttle, traction control and a host of other electronic Band-Aids — is less intrusive than ever. Our on-track experience proves that. If you approach the limits gently, VDIM even allows mild 4-wheel drifts.
Nevertheless, VDIM did kick in too often during our slalom and skidpad tests, limiting the car to 61.3-mph and 0.80g performances, respectively, two numbers that would have been significantly higher if VDIM could be shut off by the driver." - Road & Track
All-in-all, the IS is not the best drivers' car, however, not being better than the 3 does not mean you need to minimize it to having the excitement-level of an abacus.
One thing about Motor Trend's review: They said that the IS will not let you hang the tail out when pushing it real hard. I personally have never had the opportunity to do so because I do not own one, but have driven it on several ocassions. The R&T review states that they did let the tail out and did a 4 wheel power slide. Could it simply be the driver that matters most? Just an observation.
Comments
The IS is selling EXTREMELY well, especially considering they were just launched in October. I believe (not 100% sure) that the 250 + 350 together are outselling the G35 coupe + sedan.
The arguments are getting pretty trite. 99.999% of anyone who should drive a 330i or an IS350 would tell you that you cannot go wrong with either choice.
I agree with you 100%. Here is a summary of the conversation thus far:
1. Lexus doesn't need the 350 as BMW needs the 3 series. (Of course this has nothing to do with the price of tea)
2. BMWs are unreliable and the customer experience is lousy. (For a generalization it's a good one)
3. Lexus is the better car (no problem with that statement)
4. BMW is the better car (no problem with that statement either)
5. Lexus is more reliable (whole heartedly agree)
6. The e90 drives like it's on rails (whole heartedly agree)
7. BMWs are unreliable according to JDP and CR. (maybe a bit oversimplifying)
8. The BMW looks like an M35 or Kia and the Lexus looks like a Civic.
9. The IS is more technologically advanced than the 3 series.
10. The IS' interior is an advantage over the 3 series.
Seriously though I'm sure any vehicle with enough torque could drift in inclement conditions easily with TCS/ Stability management off.
Do the little dance and it's completely different.
There IS a button to disable it up to 30mph, then it kicks back in. I wonder if a dealer can reprogram that? Maybe if we send enough letters in to Lexus they can offer it?
11. Most people participated in the debate are driving Camrys & Accords :-) j/k
Assuming the person behind the wheel is moderately adept in driving, it appears that the car has balance issues, too much over steer something doesn’t look right; almost reminds me of a 60’s 911.
"The driver is Keiichi Tsuchiya. Father of Drifting. Professional racer, One of the best drivers out there."
I've driven it with VDIM off...it's fun.
A) Who said that BMW was outselling Lexus? The only sales figures I've seen posted here compare 2006 3-Series to the 2006 Lexus IS (which is keeping with the subject of this particular thread).
This measure is pretty much completely useless as far as measuring the hotness of a car. It reflects the manufacturers' ability to manage inventory more than anything else.
This measure is pretty much completely useless as far as measuring the hotness of a car. It reflects the manufacturers' ability to manage inventory more than anything else.
Most definitely.... Cuz, come on... The Buick Lucerne makes the Top 10, and the Dodge Sprinter Van makes the Top 20.
Have you felt that buzz about the new Sprinter?!?!?... Neither have I... :confuse:
Aston Martin V8 Vantage. That's a hot car!
"J.D. Power and Associates' Power Information Network said every major automaker, aside from BMW AG, posted a decline in retail sales during the period. The survey tracks sales at more than 10,000 dealers nationwide and doesn't include sales to fleet customers."
Not necessarily significant, but some more fuel for the flames.
I am neither a oxy (whatever that is) nor a moron but what I do know is that BMW is by far the number one luxury car company in the USA.
And BMW is the number one luxury auto company in the world.
Is it any wonder why?
Everybody in the world(except N. America) does not take Lexus seriously as a luxury company--In Japan and Europe a Lexus is perceived merely as a rebadged Toyota and sales there are lacklustre.
The 3 series sales are booming at a double digit pace ever since the e90 was introduced. Not a shabby performance for the number one sports sedan, dont you think?
Looking solely at inventory figures as the degree of success for a car can best be described as silly, especially when a low volume car like the IS is at its early stages of intro.
How much are you willing to wager that the inventory figure for the IS will not increase as time goes by? I bet you it will.
I'm not interested in opinions which do not based on facts..rant as much as you like :-)
The fact is the Lexus has been the #1 selling luxury brand in the US 6 years in a row. As for status symbol, BMW is no where near Mercedes in US or the world. Well, only folks with tiny brain would consider buying cars from an unreliable luxury brand. Quality is very important for American people and they have spoken...That's why Lexus is so succesful here.
You made fun of Toyota/Lexus but it does not change the fact that they are still the richest automobile company in the world with enough cash to burn BMW on the hybrid war.
http://www.autospectator.com/modules/news/article.php?storyid=2890
Wow, only a member in mensa would make such an intellectually profound statement as above.
2)I'm not interested in opinions which do not based on facts..
It is a fact that BMW is the number one luxury auto company in the world. Not opinion but fact! It is a fact that BMW is the number one luxury car company in the USA. Not opinion but fact.
3) Points one and two above and your points about hybrids has nothing to do with the topic of this forum. So now how about we focus on the question related to the forum: IS versus 3 series?
Or do you wish to continue to revise your definitions of a oxy and a moron instead :confuse:
By the way, I want to read opinions as much as facts. Not to mention, insulting your fellow members usually leads to the hosts stepping in.
You called it "fact"..:-) The only fact that I know is "BMW is one of the most unreliable luxury brands in the world". That's fact. Live with it. The rest of the world might not know but Americans know it damn well.
What is your agenda? You have to be completely oblivious if you say that "people in the World do not take Lexus seriously". Pop a valium.
Need I remind you what Top Gear said about the BMW 3 Series, and the BMW 3 Series in comparison to the Lexus IS?
- They said that the 3 Series looks like a RipOFF compared to the IS -
Nah, I won't.
:shades:
BTW, the whole crowd booed when the picture of the 3 Series was shown.
Why do you care so much about what the Europeans think anyways. Does it make you feel better inside, and maybe, more European?
Out of a poll of roughly 80,000 people in Europe, the top cars to own were (out of 159 models): #1 Honda S2000, #2 Lexus IS, #3 Lexus RX.
Looks like Europe have their red-necks as well ”Got me a Lexus” only in French.
Ok it was funny for me. :P
Anyway sales, particularly number of units sold, has NOTHING to do with my purchasing decision; as does popularity, or style poles.
If anything, I’d prefer a model with FEWER sales numbers. If everything else is equal, the exclusivity of only 5000 units compared to 100,000 units would make the model that much more appealing for me that is.
Of course there are regional disparities as well. You may have 100,000 unites sold in NA, but never see any in your particular area.
So I guess I do agree with you darn it that you shouldn’t care what the Europeans think particularly Top Gear.
YES! But boy are they funny!
Everyone likes their cars for their own reasons. Some of us think that the other person's reasons may be a little 'off', but whatever floats their boats, I guess.
That's a generalization not a fact.
Not cool.
Who knows, maybe Dewey got some wasabi stuck in his throat once and declared a personal crusade against Japanese cars. It's really pretty silly.
Why are you singling out one person? Seems like other people are doing the same thing?
I shoud've put the smiley face behind it so people will not take it seriously :-)
anyways, thanks for a general reminder to both sides.
Could you post a link to this poll, please?
Well according to the JD powers dependability survey. The luxury brands near the bottom are Mercedes, Saab and Audi. Lexus at the top, and BMW still ahead of the "industry average."
I noticed Mercedes has been having reliability issues for a while.
I don't suppose Aston Martin is in there no? They have bad reliability problems, but just the styling and sound of the V8 are enough to seduce me and sell my soul to buy one (or wait 10 years until I could hopefully afford one).
And as most of you know, the personal comments are out of line. We're not here to talk about each other.
We need to get back to comparing the actual features and attributes of the subject vehicles and leave the brand-bashing and member-bashing at the door.
Lexus sales in Europe are laughable. This Top Gear opinion poll may reflect European services and reliability views but when it boils down to voting with their wallets very few take Lexus seriously. Most vote for BMW, MB or Audi because reliability can be achieved with a Corolla or a Hyundai instead.
Likewise in Japan. Lexus sales are lacklustre there since luxury buyers seek more than reliability. The Japanese prefer Audi, BMW and MB performance and who can blame them?
Reliability is great when you buy appliances like vacuum cleaners and Lexuses.
Oh yes and I love wasabi more than sauerkraut anyday.
If we can't do that, then it's time to wrap this up.
Edit: Sorry dewey, I'm speaking to everyone, not just you.
On to the IS. Can you seriously say that the IS is simply an "appliance"? Wait! Of course you can.
I don't know of a single unbiased person who would say that the IS 350 drives like an appliance with no feeling. The IS 350 is an invigorating car to drive and is very fun!
.... This is a lost cause. Nevermind.
In that case you have been re-reading your Top Gear and autobytel reviews abit too many times. Almost every reviewer complains about the IS VDIM, lack of manual tranny and road-feel.
Oh yes and we can disable the VDIM with that fancy foot dance routine. But personally I am a bit too old to be earning my drives with a dance routine.
The points you are making are very extreme and are devoid of merit.
IS handles very well, but not as well as a 3 series with it's trac off. Nobody really disputes that.
...BUT it's a very fun and fast car, that can make some very impressive passes on the highway (even on a curve!!)
Quality is still a luxury thing for the so called "most vote" :-). Yet Europeans do value the tradition and tend favor the brands with long history. Americans/Canadians on the other hand are more open and know what the word "quality" means for their money :-)
"Likewise in Japan. Lexus sales are lacklustre there since luxury buyers seek more than reliability. The Japanese prefer Audi, BMW and MB performance and who can blame them? "
Toyota did not sell/market Lexus brand in Japan in the past. They are doing it now and it won't take long for them to become #1 just like in the US.
VDIM does not make the car an appliance. Many have grumbled at the fact the Gallardo SE's TC cannot be turned off so it does not allow them to toss the car around like a Ferrari. The Gallardo SE also comes with paddle-shifters. For those two reasons alone the Gallardo SE is lesser of a driving car compared with the 3 Series. Or, is there a loophole somewhere in there for you to find? I am by no means comparing the IS 350 to a Lamborghini, but I use the example to show that your point is not a relevant reason to dismiss the IS as a simple appliance.
Attributes such as "razor sharp handling" (Edmunds) and "stable at extremes" (Road & Track) describe the IS 350, but not by all; this seems to be a car not everyone will agree on.
The following sums up the IS 350 very well, and what several of us have been trying to say (Remember, this is one of the sources you swear by):
"On the track, the IS 350 feels right at home, stable in the extreme and benefiting from firmer springs and larger-diameter double-tube shock absorbers than those of the larger GS sedan. In hard driving, the Vehicle Dynamics Integrated Management kicks in when the car begins to understeer or oversteer. Lexus says this latest iteration of VDIM — which monitors steering angle, yaw rate, wheel speed, brake pressure, brake stroke and works with the electronic throttle, traction control and a host of other electronic Band-Aids — is less intrusive than ever. Our on-track experience proves that. If you approach the limits gently, VDIM even allows mild 4-wheel drifts.
Nevertheless, VDIM did kick in too often during our slalom and skidpad tests, limiting the car to 61.3-mph and 0.80g performances, respectively, two numbers that would have been significantly higher if VDIM could be shut off by the driver." - Road & Track
All-in-all, the IS is not the best drivers' car, however, not being better than the 3 does not mean you need to minimize it to having the excitement-level of an abacus.
One thing about Motor Trend's review: They said that the IS will not let you hang the tail out when pushing it real hard. I personally have never had the opportunity to do so because I do not own one, but have driven it on several ocassions. The R&T review states that they did let the tail out and did a 4 wheel power slide. Could it simply be the driver that matters most? Just an observation.
Having not driving the IS you find the engine smoother?