Saturn Outlook, GMC Acadia and Buick Enclave

loach

I think you're mistaken, horns. Saturn still operates on a no-haggle basis. Many people confuse "no-haggle" with "sticker". No-haggle does not mean that you pay sticker. It just means that the price is non-negotiable. Currently Saturn dealers in my area are offering 10% off sticker on most 2006 models. Also, I know the new Sky roadster is being sold above sticker in some markets. In all cases though, it's a take it or leave it no-haggle price. I would expect that if the Outlook is a big hit, we could be seeing dealers charge above-sticker prices for it. The only way to "negotiate" then would be to try to find another Saturn dealer that doesn't believe in charging above sticker (and then probably order your vehicle and wait).

nxs138

Meh, I've always seen the Saturn model as a way to charge higher prices. Interesting cars when they first came out, but still charging too much for what you get imo. That's one reason why I'm not even going to look at the Outlook (the other reason is that I like the look of the Acadia/Enclave better).

loach

Received an Outlook brochure in the mail from Saturn yesterday. Nothing really new in it, other than some nice pictures of the interior and really nice shots of the exterior in the white diamond tricoat color. The brochure did confirm that GM tested it at 16 MPG city/24 hwy for the AWD and 17/25 for FWD (official EPA tests not available yet). It also says it will hit dealerships in "early 2007".

dmathews3

Went to a UAW 602 picnic near Lansing today home of the new Outlook and his cousins and built by Local 602 members. Great thing is they have always been a great union and very careful on the products they build. Back in the 60's and 70's to 83 they built all the big Oldsmobiles like 98, 88, and cutlass. People always look to see if it is Lansing built as they knew they had a good quality vehicle. Lansing built cars have always won quality awards throughout the years and the Caddy CTS, STS, and the SUV Caddy are still doing so in state of the art plants. This new plant that will build the Outlook is even more stae of the art than any other plant in the world. They just won a Green award and the only manufacturing plant in the world to ever do so. They even capture rain water and store it to flush all the toilets in the plant. The Outlook was dark blue and locked which made it very hard to see anything past the front seats. All I could tell was the 3rd row seat had more leg room than I would have thought and I guess about 18" behind the 3rd seat at floor level and maybe a foot at the top of the seat to rear window. I couldn't find anyone who would unlock it so couldn't find out anything except to see one. It looked to be fully loaded with nav package. So if you are waiting for anyone of those 3 vehicles I'm sure you won't be disapointed. If they price them right they will have a real winner on their hands.

dtd07

I wasn't sure if this was mention, looking at the towing specs for both the GMC and Saturn-GMC is only at 2000lbs and Satrun is rated at 4500lbs----huh?? :confuse:
GMC***Professional Grade****What happen?
Maybe someone can explain more, or can it be a miss print?

pig

Though I'm primarily interesteed in the Outlook or Acadia,
I've also been keeping an eye on on the Hyundai Mesa(or now the "Veracruz".?.). On the edmonds' future crossovers, the Mesa has been pulled from the group for the past week or 3. If anyone has seen any update on the 'Mesa/Veracruz',please
advise. The only other comparable,Mazda CX-9,is still there.

Though, not in this Forum's category, there are Honda CR-V photos that can now be observed under Edmonds 'future cars'... hit 'photos'when arrive at 2007 Honda CR-V.

62vetteefp

Answer from the Product Manager

The Lambda's can tow 2,000 without a trailering pkg but with a trailer pkg (hitch, wiring, cooler...) you can tow 4,500lbs FWD or AWD

mayher

Are you a GM employee, and do you have additional info. on the Acadia/Outlook?

Thanks

62vetteefp

ex. what do you need to know?

arumage

Hyundai's new, larger crossover is officially called the Veracruz now. There are a couple of new pictures for it floating around, but not a whole lot of technical information, other than the engine will be a 3.8L ~270hp V6 w/ a 6-speed auto. There is a forum here w/ some decent links.

pig

Thanx Arumage for that...I will try to locate those pics and hope to locate some specs too.

Reference your message #70 on the 2007 Hyundai Veracruz site...I'm not sure that the Veracruz will be the 'cheapest'
as the 'Outlook'(on 'future vehicles')stated the base unit to begin in the mid-$20s. The new 2007 Hyundai Santa Fe is anticipated base price is at 26k(p/Edmonds, I believe, or mfgrs website) and that would have to put the Veracruz in the high $20s...minimum. So it would appear that the Veracruz may possibly neither be the most nimble/roomiest/ nor cheapest of the 5 new large 2007 crossovers. However,
if the package is nice overall and the mpg is the best then it becomes a reasonable option, though 1mpg better than the Lambdas won't do the trick for me.

arumage

The 2007 Santa Fe starts at around $22k mrsp w/ automatic transmission ($21k with the manual) on Hyundai's website. I would assume that the Veracuz would be about $3-4k base higher, putting it at about $25-26k msrp. Hyundai will also package more standard goodies. That seems to be their policy. The Outlook is slated to be in the mid to upper $20's which is probably going to make it atleast $27k, which is not too bad for a vehicle that size.

It will be hard to say how it will handle although it will probably be alot like the Azera since they will probably share some parts. It will also be much lighter than it's GM counterparts. That will also help handling. Towing will also be relatively similar. The Santa Fe w/ a smaller engine tows 3500lbs so it's reasonable to assume it could tow 4500lbs or more.

As for the difference in room, it will probably be behind the 3rd row seat. The Santa Fe has best in class 3rd row leg room so I would think the Veracruz would be pretty nice in that regard too, but I don't see it having 19 cu. ft. behind the seat like the Lambda's do.

The Lambda's will be the roomiest, the CX-9 will be the performance champion of the group, and the Veracuz will be a good combination of the two. It's all going to depend on your personal preferences.

mayher

I hear different dates as to when the Acadia and Outlook will begin to arrive at dealers. If you read 3 diff. articles, you'll get three different dates. I believe that I read that Lansing is producing units at this time. I am not sure if these are pilot pre-production units or comsumers cars. I had heard they were going to build 700 units initially before bring the line slowly up to speed. Have they built these initial units, and are they building production at this time? If they are building cars, are they being shipped or held in a lot for later shipment? When will the first shipments be released for shipments to dealers,and when will pricing be released? I read that the introduction date will be sometime in January. The introduction date is usually several weeks or months after cars are being produced and shipped.

Any credible information you can provide would be appreciated.

Thanks

dmathews3

I live in Lansing and according to their news release last week that they are no building pilot vehicles and will start production in NOv. but it will be into Dec. before they start showing up at the GMC & Saturn dealers with April of 07 for the Buick.

62vetteefp

From the horses mouth:When will the first Lamda be at dealerships? About as credible as you can get.

Saturn/GMC about mid to late Nov

mayher

Thanks to you and dmatthews3 for the info. I guess I'll just have to be patient and wait.

Is there anything else that the horses mouth can share with us?

Thanks

pig

Thanx for the correction ...not sure which brand/model the 26k came from.?. However,the 'Outlook'did say mid-$20s...I guess 27k is the mid-20s and perhaps will appreciate some more by arrival date. The pics you directed me to looked
fairly good considering the angle given.

arumage

Hyundai and Mazda seem to be a bit stingy with the information on their vehicles. It's nice that GM has hyped their vehicles a bit by giving a few choice pieces of information here and there.

As for price on the Outlook, I've seen a few places estimates at mid to high 20's. I suppose the only way to find out is from GM... whenever that will be.

nxs138

I'm beginning to worry about the gas mileage in these vehicles. I was hoping for mid 20's, but haven't heard much info regarding these engines and how thirsty they might get, especially with all the weight. Hopefully the gearing will help.

Mazda has really been tight-lipped regarding the CX-9. Maybe they're waiting to hype it closer to the release of the Enclave...?

arumage

The rumor is that the Ford Edge will get 19/25 so I'd say the least the Mazda will get is 18/24 given it's extra poundage. There are also rumors that the Edge will go 0-60 in 6.9 seconds so it also depends on how Mazda will setup the transmission since they are using their own transmission rather than Ford's. I'm just guessing that the Mazda will be the lightest of the CX-9 (4300-4400 lbs?), Lambdas (Heavy!), and Veracruz (Entourage is heavy so this probably will be too).

1487

Mileage for the GM vehicles was releases a while ago and people here have documented it numerous times. The mileage is 17/24 for the AWD version I believe. These vehicles are too heavy to get high 20s mileage.

nxs138

I'm just worried that the "actual" mileage might be even lower than the dyno estimate, in which case the only advantage over a normal SUV is the handling/comfort and the fact it doesn't look so darn boxy.

Still, 24 mpg highway isn't all that bad. I get about 25 mpg with my car right now...

62vetteefp

Actual mileage will be lower than the epa estimates. Seems like it always is. For all vehicles. EPA is working right now to revise the testing to more accurately represent the way people drive today, i.e. 70 mph, not 55 which is how the test is set up. Among other changes.

If you compared a normal SUV actual mileage to the new CUV's there will be an uptick but it will not be huge. You still have to move a lot of weight and they still are big boxes.

arumage

I've had no trouble getting the posted gas mileage out of my vehicles. It all depends on how lead-footed you are. My '99 Camry (2.2L) gets anywhere between 23/34mpg which is good because it's rated 23/30. My 2000 Intrepid (3.2L V6) gets between 19/28mpg which is exactly what it's rated. I know for a fact that if I burned my tires from one light to another, it would be a different story. Both of them seem to burn alot of gas if you peg them.

62vetteefp

Then you should get close to epa in the Lamdas.

arumage

They are definite possibilities as long as they are far superior to the 1995 Oldsmobile Cutlass Supreme.

62vetteefp

Since there was some discussion here on EPA MPG.

I just read the new MPG ratings estimates will drop 10-20% for city driving and 5-15% for highway. This should be much more realistic.

chrisl0

You forget one thing these new vehicles have improved aerodynamics and a 6 speed auto which boosts fuel mileage. Might not be exactly what it says but it should be close.

62vetteefp

I think I disagree with your premise if I understand you correctly.

The 6 speed and better aero numbers are calculated into the epa estimates.

The epa estimated MPG numbers are not always determined by driving actual vehicles. The OEM starts with a car, lets say an Impala, They put it thru a test schedule and get the MPG numbers. From then on no more testing of that vehicle is done. If there is an engine change, dyno data from that engine is used to revise the MPG numbers. A tire change and the rolling resistance number is used to revise the MPG numbers. They can even use a different vehicle to get an MPG number. i.e. the LaCrosse (same architecture as the Impala) could use the Impala numbers and modify them to the LaCrosse criteria. They just plug in engine/tire/aero/etc. data.

What I am getting at is that the epa numbers today are still not indicative of what most people will get and going to a 6 speed will not get the numbers closer to reality. The testing procedure and assumptions must change.

arumage

There is no substitute for actually driving the car, and even that is a variable unless a computer is doing the actual driving. There are too many environmental variables to estimate well, including the driver himself/herself. I'm not sure how to correct this completely, but I know they can do better.

62vetteefp

Absolutely. The numbers should be used for comparative purposes only. i.e. car 1 gets 23 epa hiway and car 2 gets 26 epa hiway. With the same conditions car 2 will get 3 mpg more than car 1 with all drivers.

nxs138

I'm sure GM knows what the actual real world mileage will be since they have been testing these vehicles for a while now. They probably have hot weather data, cold weather data, etc. etc. but of course EPA mpg is what they have to release.

Kinda reminds me of the whole hybrid gas mileage fiasco: I'm sure the Toyota engineers were all laughing when the EPA numbers came out, knowing full well very few people would actually be able to get that mileage due to the outdated test conditions for EPA mileage...yet they still chose to advertise those numbers.

arumage

No carmaker would release that kind of data just because it usually never reflects well, as a whole, on their vhicles.

The Prius probably will get that kind of gas mileage if you drive like your 80 year old grandmother in her giant caddy, but in most places you would find Prius drivers, you would be run over by some jerk in their big crossover :P for driving like that.

62vetteefp

I'm sure GM knows what the actual real world mileage will be

The actual real mileage depends onthe actual real world condtions and the driver. the EPA made up a test during the days of 55 mph speed limits and folks scared of running out of gas. The test reflected that kind of driving. If you drive like you have just bought your last tank of gas you can get the EPA numbers. Also I am pretty sure that during the test not all options are used. If I remember right even the AC is not used all the time. In todays cars it is on all the time.

Yes they choose to "advertise" those EPA numbers but they do not have a choice what those numbers are just like everyone else. I wonder how Honda? lowered the numbers after the first year on the hybrids? (or was it Toyota?)

jd14

I'm not sure if any of you have visited the Enclave Website recently but sometime in the last few days they added a couple pictures of the car on public roads (however, it had the 21 inch chrome wheels, so was not likely the production vehicle) and a new set of interviews with the manufacturing people at Lansing. At least one thing is certain, the beautifully shaped monstrous chrome grille that we all loved on the concept is identical to the one being put on the production vehicle

dmathews3

The Prius probably will get that kind of gas mileage
The prius had a stalling problem on takeoff and since they reprogramed peoples car that had the problem they are crying their eyes out as it don't get that wonderful mileage anymore. :shades:

pig

On Edmonds 'Future Vehicles', you'll find that they have the Eclave with 21" wheels as though it is the standard. However, I either read or heard over tv/radio that short walled tires have a 'much' lower safety record(less safe)than the more normal walled tire...so tires for the 18" wheels on Qutlook/Acadia should be a safer setup than Enclaves'.

Enclaves ...

jd14

The vehicle pictured in the future vehicles area is the concept, well, except for the last two pictures which are of the production model with lots of camo on. If they did have the 21 inch chrome rims as a stock option I would celebrate. It's not so much of a safety issue if the wheel arch is big enough to easily accomodate the rims. By the way, I noticed that you always write edmonds in all of your posts, and the name is actually edmUnds. I'm not trying to be jerk, I just thought you might want to know.

beerme1

"By the way, I noticed that you always write edmonds in all of your posts, and the name is actually edmUnds. I'm not trying to be jerk, I just thought you might want to know."

LOL!! I hate to point out people's gramatical mistakes on message boards because I make so many of my own!! :P
This one's pretty good though.

pig

You've been around long enough to know that I need all the
help I can get...thanx

pig

forgot to mention that everytime I type in edmonds.com it goes right to edmunds.com....so I never had a clue until
beerme1 came along...thanx again!

jd14

That was me

jd14

Does anyone know when the "Super" Enclave with the V8 engine is coming out? I would guess model year 09 but I'm not sure. :confuse:

mayher

Not sure if anyone else saw this but the link below was posted on another site. College project was given access to the new Lansing plant to take pictures. The attached link has 150 photos taken inside the plant. Many are not worth much, but there are several that show the new CUV during the assembly process.

http://projectphotoshoplightroom.com/project_detail.php?id=3

1487

GM has never confirmed a V8 would be offered for the Enclave but many suspect it will be. I would expect in for MY 2009 but due to limitations on the 6 speed dont expect much more power. The Northstar only makes 291hp compared to 275 for the 3.6 V6 and yet the 5.3L V8 from the Impala makes too much torque to be paired with the 6 speed auto. The Northstar does generate about 40 more lb-ft of torque than the V6 so that will be helpful.

All Lambdas will have optional 19" rims.

jd14

I'm not sure if it has already been posted on this forum, but has anyone been able to find the final pricing on any of the three models? They are due out in a few months and all I've seen are estimates ranging from about 28k to the low 40s(fully loaded Enclave). I was looking at information on the new MDX the other day and thinking to myself that if GM builds the Enclave about 95% like the concept, then we are getting a STEAL considering that top of the line MDX is estimated to come in at around 50k. :P

loach

Pricing hasn't been released yet. The estimates you posted are probably as good as any. Keep an eye on Edmunds Inside Line - there should be an article there just as soon as pricing is announced.

murfdog

The pricing I am reading here reminds me of the pricing for the Buick Rendovous. I kept reading people talking about buying that car in the high 20s or low 30s or mid 30s. We bought ours in 2002 for 21k. The base was loaded enough for us.

I would like to know what the lowest possible base could be for the buick and the saturn. We get the supplier price discount since I work for IBM. We don't need the third seat or the extras. We just want a base midsize crossover.

If we can not get one for the low 20s, then we will look at the Toyota FJ Cruiser or Rava4 or that new Ford Edge or something else.

I am looking for a base of 20-22k. Is that possible for one of these cars, especially the entry buick enclave. I was able to get a stripped down base CX Rend for 20-21k.

If it goes to the mid20s then there are plenty of other vehicles in that price range to chose from. I am looking at GM because of our discount and I hate negotiating with Honda/Toyota. We love our Rendevous and will keep it, we just need to change out an old Camry for something new preferably a crossover since we were spoiled by the Rendevous.

62vetteefp

With your discount you may hit $25K for a base Saturn, maybe. This is a much bigger vehicle than the Rendy. It will come with much more standard equipment. Third row is standard.

A little secret for you. Below is the order book for the Outlook. Hit print book then print model. "printing does not really print"

http://eogld.ecomm.gm.com/NASApp/domestic/vehiclesel.jsp?year=2007&regionID=1&di- visionID=10

maybe the midsize Torrent would do?

dmathews3

It printed for me.