Toyota on the mend?

imidazol97

It's here:

http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/direct/view/.f106481/672#MSG672

210delray

The story is a little short on details -- I'd like to know how many complaints were received by State Farm and what were the circumstances.

Not saying that State Farm isn't a valid source -- it is the largest car insurer in the US by a fair margin, and it's commendable that they're passing on claims data to the government.

Many of these sudden acceleration cases could have been due to the mat interference problem and some because of sticky pedals -- the Avalon was the earliest Toyota to have the potential for sticking pedals with its 2005 redesign, and the redesigned 2007 Camry came out in March 2006.

210delray

Thanks!

tomjava

A Fact! What a nonsense! In the past throttle cable stuck was considered UA? Not likely. Audi 5000 fiasco, media blamed Audi for not responsive, even at the end NHTSA found no defect on Audi 5000, but damage was done. Not even 60-minute willing to apologize, sad! :sick:

revit

Can only imagine numbers when Toyota does a Recall on the 2009/2010 Corolla. :lemon:

Complainants say the vehicle can veer to the left or right at over 40 mph. Over the 83 filed complaints, six accidents are associated with the alleged steering issue with 10 injuries reported.

andres3

People choose Camry's over G8 GT's for the following reasons:

1. Toyota will still be around in 10 years, Pontiac is already gone and GM is on life support and that won't last more than 4 more years.
2. GM may not be around to honor warranties in the near future.
3. You don't need a warranty with a Camry because you can Trust Toyota to not have mechanical problems outside of recalls. If GM or Ford offerred a Hyundai like long bumper to bumper and LONG LASTING powertrain warranty, that would help them immensely, but they refuse to do so, and so do consumers refuse to buy them without it. Who gets stuck with the bill, no one, but they lose thousands of sales every year for failing to back their vehicles with a long warranty. Put your money where your mouth is!
4. Resale value.
5. Comfort & isolation (some people love this).
6. build quality/fit and finish

210delray

Jumping the gun a little? Just because NHTSA is investigating doesn't guarantee a recall will occur.

Corolla and Matrix sales in calendar 2009 and 2008: 296,874 / 351,007. Some of these sales would be 2008 models with conventional hydraulic power steering.

andres3

My money is on Ford which has gone up over 600% in a year. How much money do you have invested in Toyota?

An even better question is how much money did you have invested in the "old" GM stock? How much did you lose if you bet on GM instead of say .... Toyota in the last... say 20 years?

revit

Thanks Steve on the CR link.

I also find much of this information to be accurate:

Consumer Reports reliability ratings for cars, trucks, and minivans: are they reliable?


A high response rate is the key to validity. Employee survey findings can be questioned when fewer than half of the employees respond. So how many people respond to a Consumer Reports survey? "Of over 4 million questionnaires sent this year, the magazine received responses regarding about 480,000 vehicles," according to Detroit News. If most people reported on two cars (because most families have two or more cars), that would put the response rate at a mere 6%. Even assuming one car per family - a highly dubious assumption - we have a taudry 12% response rate.

In reactions to the problem of sludge in the engines of many Toyotas - a problem which Toyota, to its credit, eventually admitted and acted on. The Corolland forums were full of people claiming the problem was not real but simply in the minds of those who claimed they had it; and if was real, it was the fault of owners and not Toyota. We doubt they'd feel the same way if, say, Neons were victims of sludge.

Will Mast said, “A friend with a Toyota used to brag about how trouble free it was until I showed him all the repairs, including a cracked exhaust valve, that were hidden in his 30,000 mile "maintenance" visits to the dealer.”

gagrice

In the past throttle cable stuck was considered UA? Not likely.

Of course they did. And you flipped the accelerator peddle with your foot and it came back to idle. Thankfully we can still believe what we want in America. I believe Toyota has a serious problem on their hands. I believe they did nothing back when a few complaints by owners were just disregarded. Now they are coming in all at once. The guy that had a problem in 2005 and the dealer told him there was no trouble is now jumping on the bandwagon. Toyota is now answering for all the past failures they refused to address. Those are the facts. I'm still driving my Toyota. Oh, yeah it does not have any recalls, Yet.

210delray

Out-of-date information. Now that you can answer the survey online, the response rate has gone up considerably.

As I said before Allpar is out of its league in criticizing CR's methodology. If you want to read all about Mopars, old and new, this is a great website.

revit

Jumping the gun a little? Just because NHTSA is investigating doesn't guarantee a recall will occur.

Jumping the gun???????? Shall we look at Toyota's record so far?

1. Cover Up

2. Deny It

3. Blame The Owner

4. Blame The Supplier

5. Announce An Investigation Has "Started"

6. Be Reluctant On Issuing A Long Overdue Recall

7. Finally Announce A Recall

8. Then Push A PR Indicating "We Are Acting Fast and Committed To Doing Everything We Can"

Geez... :sick:

210delray

Yeah, yeah, yeah, how many times has this been repeated, ad nauseum?

larsb

I don't think Toyota mismanaged the situation too badly, at least not any worse that other carmakers in the past have handled similar issues.

Really.

They correctly considered that some of the UA incidents were human error, as most of them historically HAVE BEEN.

When required to take action by political pressure, they did so. Just like other carmakers in the past have done.

Now, they are taking every report of problems VERY SERIOUSLY and are stepping up to the plate to remedy problems.

Admirable. Earning my respect.

Not the "media-driven opposite."

imidazol97

>the response rate has gone up considerably.

Good, someone with facts.

What is the current response rate?

Is it via a random survey? (We know the answer to that one is NO)

Is the data used raw or is it still manipulated by the desires of the CR staff to fit their opinions?

How many responses do they have for each model of car?

When did CR first note in their recommendations that there were unintended accelerationn problems in toyotas? Surely someone of their alleged broad-based survey had reported that important fact since 2002? Or even 2005? Or during 2007 when State Farm noted it from their database and reported it to NHSTA (and I assume reported it to toyota).

210delray

Yes, alleged sudden acceleration has bedeviled all major manufacturers for nearly 30 years now. It's been one of the thorniest issues in auto safety to pin down. Most cases have seemed to be due to drivers hitting the gas instead of the brakes, after extensive investigatory efforts. So it doesn't surprise me that neither NHTSA or Toyota were expecting a vehicular cause.

dturr

Federal safety officials have received complaints from drivers of 2009 and 2010 Corollas in the U.S., with many saying their cars wandered when driving straight on highways.

Reported in British press along with request for Toyota to come clean on all the faults it is hiding.

gagrice

The shifter linkage is mechanical in the ES330, same as in the Camry.

Are you sure? Everything I find says the Lexus ES series went to DBW on their Throttle, transmission and brakes in 2002. They called it E-shift. Which could explain why it ignored commands from the shift lever.

210delray

Off the top of my head, they're now receiving responses on over 1 million cars.

It's still a "convenience" survey, to use your term (subscribers only).

Is the data used raw or is it still manipulated by the desires of the CR staff to fit their opinions?

No answer needed, as you clearly indicate your position (or bias).

I don't know how many responses there are for each model, but slow-selling cars indicate "insufficient data." TrueDelta uses a minimum sample size of 25 for each year/make/model.

For further discussion, move on over to Steve's linked thread. I should have stuck to my word yesterday and said no more CR talk here.

210delray

Definitely conventional hydraulic brakes. Mercedes' experiment with electro-hydraulic brakes ended miserably. There's still a mechanical link between the shift lever and transmission, I'm almost certain, but there are electronics to help decide when to upshift or downshift (comparable to Honda's Grade Logic). Only the throttle is completely by wire. ES is identical to Camry under the skin.

Signing off for now -- must get back to work!

imidazol97

Wwest has commented on the transmission shifting. He suggests that when under load from a wide throttle engine, the parts in the transmission may not release to effect the shift because they are under load.

The changeing within the transmission might be electronically controlled, while the actual connection to the shifter is a mechanical link.

beachfish2

"may not"

Is an opinion, not a fact. I wouldn't get too upset yet, the folks who say they have tried it with Toyotas say that you CAN shift out of Drive.

Anybody remember the story about chicken little? The boy who cried wolf? Great stories, but whether they were true stories is a whole 'nother thing.

Tens of millions of Toyotas on the road and only a handful of problems.

Oh, and about the wandering Corollas, maybe they got passed by a Harley and buffeted about by the breeze.

John

houdini1

The G8 GT is a balanced RWD sedan with 365HP. The Avalon and Lexus LS 460 posted the absolute lowest speeds in Consumer Reports accident avoidance tests. They are the worst handling vehicles sold in America.

Sorry, but you are wrong.

First, the only current Lexus LS tested is the 460 LSL, which is the long wheelbase car which is effectively a limousine, and certainly doesn't pretend to be a performance sedan.

Second, even so, it had a better avoidance speed than the first competitor I checked... the Mercedes CLS 550.

Third, the Avalon had an avoidance speed on 50 mph and the Pontiac G8 was only 51.5 mph. So close I don't think you could tell the difference.

revit

It is really foolish when somebody mentions Toyota when they are talking about agility and handling.

Exactly, some on here seem to think the Toyota Camry is comparable to a BMW 3 Series...hmmm, which can out-handle the other

No question the Toyota Camry quality has DROPPED; to the point, where many reviews that rate the Pros/Cons now indicate:

Toyota Camry Con: Build Quality

BUT ITS A TOYOTA!!!!

smarty666

to be honest with you I don't care whether you or pushrod think CR is biased or not; I really don't care; if your stupid enough to believe everything CR says than that's your problem; just do what I've said all along, if you don't like CR, then use multiple professional sources for information and reviews to get a majority read on the car or SUV your interested in

simple solution: if you don't like CR don't read it!!!

and please revit, please point out the specific people on here that say the Camry handles better than a BMW 3-series, please for the love of God point these people out to me, I'd love to read that! haven't seen any recent posts by anyone suggesting that idiotic claim!

revit

Who Could Ask For Anything More?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08BmMU2TwHE&feature=player_embedded

imidazol97

>Is an opinion, not a fact

Please note the citation of "wwest" and a post by him.

>Anybody remember the story about chicken little? The boy who cried wolf? Great stories, but whether they were true stories is a whole 'nother thing.

I've grown weary of people trying to negate anything with which they didn't agree or don't want to hear as not being a fact and just an opinion. :P Of course it's my opinion based on wwest's post. I doubt that anyone here is more logically based in understanding the vehicle than wwest. If there's something someone doesn't like hearing, just scroll on down please.

stever

"Still, these donations appear to have been unusual. Toyota does not have a large public footprint when it comes to political giving. There is no report of the company making a similar donation to the governors associations during the prior three years."

Toyota Gives $100K to Democratic, Republican Political Groups (ABC)

revit

When I experienced uncontrolled acceleration in my '05 ES330 two years ago, shifting to neutral did absolutely nothing as the car continued to accelerate. I see posted video where the guy states simply shift to neutral and the car should at least stop propelling forward. Well, it did not work for me.

The problem with Toyota is electrical/electronic, not mechanical.

The shim fix is a scam.

Its not a scam, its a SHAM! LOL

Well, as of this afternoon, your comment appears to be coming true as many are as viewing this as a quick cheap fix, but not addressing the true problem. An attempt by Toyota to calm the Perfect Storm, but looks like they are only making matters worse.

"But some industry analysts and safety advocates say the problem is bigger than a pedal. They note that the federal government has done eight investigations of sudden, unexplained acceleration in Toyotas over the last seven years and none identified a stuck gas pedal as a potential cause.

They point to Toyota's onboard electronics - the sensors and microprocessors that control the car's throttle - which they say could be sending the wrong and potentially lethal signals.

"It is a multi-faceted problem that has multiple root causes, which is why we anticipate that this problem is going to continue even after these accelerator pedals have been replaced," said Sean Kane of the company Safety Research and Strategies. "

gagrice

Doesn't Toyota know they were supposed to put a shopping bag full of unmarked bills on the back porch of the White House. No wonder they are in trouble.

imidazol97

>shopping bag full of unmarked bills on the back porch of the White House.

Or in Jefferson's freezer.

maple2

I don't think Toyota mismanaged the situation too badly, at least not any worse that other carmakers in the past have handled similar issues.

Really.

They correctly considered that some of the UA incidents were human error, as most of them historically HAVE BEEN.

so since some of them were human error they should ignore them all?

When required to take action by political pressure, they did so. Just like other carmakers in the past have done.

oh you mean after they were REMINDED that it is illegal to sell a new car with a known defect that there is no fix avail.

Now, they are taking every report of problems VERY SERIOUSLY and are stepping up to the plate to remedy problems.

Admirable. Earning my respect

wow...admirable? you mean they are in serious damage control and grasping at straws. Too little too late. :lemon:

houdini1

Well, unless you are posting from the Great Beyond, or approaching escape velocity, please tell us how you managed to stop. :surprise:

graphicguy

Steve.....Toyota's also going after the "look at all the tax dollars our employees pay" bit....

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100209/ap_on_bi_ge/toyota_recall

They are going before lawmakers, of that I have no doubt. Now, they want to know what the lawmakers are going to ask them, and what they're in for.

The article mentions what Ford/Bridgestone did...that is, keep Congress apprised every step of the way on their investigation. They came out of it bloodied and bruised, but OK in the long run.

In this instance, I think it's almost a certainty that Toyota is going to be asked to come clean, about all of it....electronics, what they've been trying to gloss over, any evidence that they've kept private regarding UA, braking, steering maladies, etc.

Come clean. Be open and completely honest. Take immediate steps to rectify issues. or at least have a verifiable and comprehensive plan to fix the issues. It's going to be real expesive to do. I expect some very large fines to be levied. But, if they follow those steps, they'll come out OK. May take a couple of years, maybe 5 years, longer? Don't know. But, they'll be a better, more open, more responsible company if they do.

stever

Re Ford Explorers and Firestone tires mentioned in your link, "Firestone blundered miserably at the outset of this event by not immediately appreciating the public relations fiasco".

And why?

"It's because Firestone is really a manufacturing arm of Bridgestone and policy and strategic issues are dealt with in Japan, not in the U.S. By the time the seriousness of the situation was communicated to senior Bridgestone executives it was too late".

Well, it's another take, even if you don't agree with it.

The Ford-Firestone Fallout (BNET)

Meanwhile Honda no longer has to worry about being left out of the headlines:

Honda recalls 379,000 cars for airbag hazard (CNN)

smarty666

Toyota is only getting the heat because they are under the microscope now but all the automakers are having problems; Ford is still having recalls just like everyone else but its a hush hush story because of all the problems with Toyota; here is the latest on Fords problems with the Fusion; doesn't look like Toyota's are the only one having problems stopping!

http://abcnews.go.com/Business/wireStory?id=9750168 ">link title

if you read the article it seems that some recall problems can be found during test driving as consumer reports did!

driver56

That commercial looks as if though it is right out of Stepford. I think that's my sister actually. But, she now owns a 09 Corolla. Apparently she hasn't noticed any irregularities with the car, but no matter, she wouldn't know the difference.

Mick

smarty666

before you and others praise Ford, they still are at the top of the total recall list and still have a long way to go; here is a nice article that outlines all the recalls Ford has put out the last several years when comparing to Toyota equals if not exceeds the total amount of vehicles apart of Toyota's recall!

http://www.lemonauto.com/complaints/1_ford_recalls.htm?gclid=CND00oXS5p8CFWMK5Qo- dWT5edw

210delray

He's probably right in that regard, and this would be true for most cars today.

210delray

Thanks for posting this. I was too lazy to look myself.

So much for the repetitious claims of the "worst handling cars in America."

All from a magazine that's not to believed (except when it's convenient) because of its alleged bias.

Oh wait, here I go talking about CR again. Back to Toyota on the mend .

210delray

"It is a multi-faceted problem that has multiple root causes, which is why we anticipate that this problem is going to continue even after these accelerator pedals have been replaced," said Sean Kane of the company Safety Research and Strategies. "

Oh no, not this charlatan (quack) again! Show me where this guy has any qualifications. He's not an engineer and has only one (with only a BS) on his staff. He makes his assertions based on consumer complaints, apparently taking all at face value. His group does no crash investigations, and most of its income comes from trial lawyers.

Someone want to defend this group? Anyone? Bueller?

lilengineerboy

here is a nice article that outlines all the recalls Ford has put out the last several years when comparing to Toyota equals if not exceeds the total amount of vehicles apart of Toyota's recall!

Eh, I think this recall is more analogous to the Pinto stuff in the 70s because of Toyota's repeated cover-ups, withholding of information, violation of the TREAD act, etc. Yes Ford did that, but it was in 1978, just over 30 years ago. And then the guy responsible brought you the minivan.

210delray

They are going before lawmakers, of that I have no doubt. Now, they want to know what the lawmakers are going to ask them, and what they're in for...

Come clean. Be open and completely honest. Take immediate steps to rectify issues. or at least have a verifiable and comprehensive plan to fix the issues. It's going to be real expensive to do. I expect some very large fines to be levied. But, if they follow those steps, they'll come out OK. May take a couple of years, maybe 5 years, longer? Don't know. But, they'll be a better, more open, more responsible company if they do.

Sounds reasonable except for one giant fly in the ointment: The blowhard congressmen holding these hearings will grandstand and tell the world what a wonderful job they're doing. Stupak is from Michigan, where Toyota has no assembly plants (they do have an R&D center in the Ann Arbor area). No doubt he's solidly backed by the UAW also. I don't expect many facts to come out of this kangaroo court.

I'd say let NHTSA do the job instead, now that they finally have a permanent administrator plus backing (however clumsy) from Ray "foot-in-mouth" LaHood, the DOT secretary.

smarty666

oh come on, you people are hypocrites, you want to trash Toyota and all the other Japanese automakers but when you get the proof that the American car companies have just as much or more recalls then Toyota has you come up with every excuse in the book why its okay for them but not Toyota; Ford just had to recall 17.6k Fusion and Milans for faulty brake problems and that relates to the pinto stuff of the 70s, come on give me a break! they have consistent recalls month after month the last two years and that relates to 1978, come on man! last time I checked it was 2010 not 1978

sometime early last year, some 275k 2009 Malibu's had to be recalled due to problems with the automatic transmission and the shift lever

its the hardcore Ford, GM, and Chrysler buyer who can't even admit that for almost 30 years those three companies had mis-management and poor products and that is why they had to get billions in loans, bail-outs, and bankruptcy and is just salivating anytime a Japanese or German automaker has any kind of recall to try and make themselves feel good about their poor purchase decision in order to hide from the truth; GM and Ford will never be on top again if people can't first admit that there was a problem and now they are trying to correct and change/make things for the better - believe me I know, I was one of those hardcore GM fans for years in denial that there products were crappy until I finally had enough of being financially broke to keep my cars going!

imidazol97

Deja vu:
Firestone went through this before. They should have known what to do the second time around with Ford blaming them. I believe CTS knew what to do when toyota started to throw them out as the sacrificial lamb like Ford did to Firestone. CTS was clear about the part was designed and approved by toyota. A good Hoosier company!

The Firestone tactic was delay and stall until most of the tires were no longer on cars and were gone meaning that people would not be able to make a claim. Does the stall tactic sound familiar toyota fans?

From the 70s:
"In 1973, only two years after the 500's debut, Thomas A. Robertson, Firestone's director of development wrote an internal memo stating "We are making an inferior quality radial tire which will subject us to belt-edge separation at high mileage".[10] Firestone introduced strict quality control measures in an attempt to fix the inherent problems, however they were not successful in totally eliminating the basic faults. In 1977 a recall of 400,000 tires produced at the problematic Decatur plant was initiated. Firestone was considered to be less than cooperative with the NHTSA during the agency's investigation into the Firestone 500. Firestone blamed the problems on the consumer, stating underinflation and poor maintenance.

"On October 20, 1978, Firestone recalled over 7 million Firestone 500 tires[11], the largest tire recall to date. Congressional hearings into the 500 also took place in 1978. The tire was found to be defective and the cause of 34 deaths. In May 1980 after finding that they knew the tires were defective, the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration fines Firestone $500,000 USD, which at that time was the largest fine imposed on any U.S. corporation and the largest civil penalty imposed since passage of the 1966 National Traffic and Motor Vehicle Act. Multiple lawsuits were settled out of court and the constant negative publicity crippled the company's sales and share price.[12]" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firestone_Tire_and_Rubber_Company

Toyota needs to take lessons.

210delray

Plus a much better and more recent Ford example is the Explorer/Firestone debacle, which killed something like 270 people at last count. This was the reason for enactment of the TREAD Act in the first place.

Putative expert Sean Kane places the number of deaths from Toyota sudden acceleration at 19 over a 10-11 year period. This includes all claimed cases of SA, regardless of whether the vehicle or driver was at fault. (Kane insists from anecdotal evidence that no drivers were at fault.)

imidazol97

>every excuse in the book why its okay for them but not Toyota; Ford just had to recall 17.6k Fusion and Milans for faulty brake problems and that relates to the pinto stuff of the 70s

So to summarize, it's okay for toyota to have stalled and endangered people's lives because they still haven't had as many recalls as the US car manufacturers had in total. So when toyota surpasses the total number of recalls, then and only then it's okay to criticize?

I think just looking at the size of each recall and the annual total recalled is the comparison used previously with American companies in defining the size of their recalls. I'll do the same for toyota.

smarty666

now with the new Toyota problems and recalls, Toyota, GM, and Ford are at the top when it comes to total problems/recalls which no other automakers come close to beating; it sucks when your number 1 in sales!!

imidazol97

>Toyota, GM, and Ford are at the top when it comes to total

I don't believe GM has had enough recalls to even show on the map. They've only been in business for a year.

210delray

Meanwhile Honda no longer has to worry about being left out of the headlines:

Honda recalls 379,000 cars for airbag hazard (CNN)

Maybe one silver lining out of all this is that people will realize just how common recalls are, for all makes and models. I think once the Explorer/Firestone fiasco made headlines, people's eyes mostly glazed over when reading about other recalls, until of course this Toyota feeding frenzy.

Still for an individual owner of 1-3 cars, the chances of a recall are still quite low. For me, I've experienced only 2 in 13 years for safety-related reasons and one more for a service campaign to fix an underhood a/c bracket.