Toyota on the mend?

imidazol97

>Meanwhile Honda no longer has to worry about being left out of the headlines:
>Honda recalls 379,000 cars for airbag hazard (CNN)
>Maybe one silver lining out of all this is that people will realize just how common recalls are

I believe the difference is in what people perceive happens if things go wrong. With the Explorer fiasco they mostly felt it was the other guy's problem and that they were good drivers and the car wouldn't get ahead of them if a tire by chance did blow.

For Honda I suspect it's a case of "as long as they spell my name right" with reference to negativity for the recall. And I perceive that's the same for the brake problems in hybrids including Prius. The key is that the brakes work, either there's a split second delay or there's a reduced brake power but definitely braking is there for the Ford. For most people, this is just "OMG, another recall." Life goes on. Get it fixed.

The car engine taking over and being uncontrollable, for some at least, is frightening.

210delray

The Firestone tactic was delay and stall until most of the tires were no longer on cars and were gone meaning that people would not be able to make a claim. Does the stall tactic sound familiar toyota fans?

Only one big flaw in your argument -- cars last a lot longer than tires. Today's cars last at least 15 years barring crashes or severe abuse. The median age of cars was 9+ years according to RL Polk and Co, somewhat less for light trucks, which I assume includes SUVs and vans.

And Toyotas last even longer than average!

imidazol97

>cars last a lot longer than tires.

Yes they do. That's why it's so important that a car company react to reports of anything safety related about their cars. People are going to have that car on the road longer than they would have in the 70s, e.g.

>And Toyotas last even longer than average!

There's a followup line for that statement but I'm going to control myself.

stever

Just got around to reading the weekend WSJ and there was an interesting essay by Jeff Kingston on Japanese corporate culture that has been a factor in most of their PR problems with various issues over the decades.

One thing that caught my eye was how no one sues in Japan and that's helped enable the corporations there to hide stuff and gloss over problems (aided by the government).

We have apparent foot dragging by the NHTSA (and lenient staff going to work for the companies being regulated) but at least the Sean Kanes are keeping our legal system hammering at the problems. All those lawyers are like the National Enquirer chasing John Edwards - it's not pretty but most everything winds up seeing the light of day.

Smart corporations (Johnson & Johnson being the poster child) react quickly.

Toyota response has deep roots (Wall St. Journal)

210delray

The car engine taking over and being uncontrollable, for some at least, is frightening.

In the unforgettable words of kdhspyder, "Shift to neutral and live."

Besides you're old enough to remember the bad old days of throttle return springs breaking and linkages binding. Lots of bad stuff happened in the "old days." I never experienced sudden acceleration but plenty of other rather scary maladies that I survived because I knew what to do.

One of those was the first inkling that my brake master cylinder was going. I started to brake for a stop, and for a split second, the car didn't slow down at all. I just kept on pressing the brake pedal. Later, as the problem worsened and I knew I had to get it fixed, I remembered to pump the pedal to give me better braking power, just as I was taught in driver's ed.

imidazol97

>throttle return springs breaking

I recall one breaking on a 292 Ford. I hooked it back using one of the parts and drove the car til I could replace the spring. It seems like the car didn't flop wide open carburetor and accelerate.

> to pump the pedal to give me better braking power, just as I was taught in driver's ed.

Was that before the days of the split system so one serves marginally as a backup brake. One master cylinder and if it fails--no brakes at all. Ahhhhh, the good old days.

lilengineerboy

"Toyota Has Pattern of Slow Response on Safety Issues" by James Kanter, Micheline Maynard and Hiroko Tabuchi

now with the new Toyota problems and recalls, Toyota, GM, and Ford are at the top

Well put :P

gagrice

Oh no, not this charlatan (quack) again! Show me where this guy has any qualifications.

Sounds like he will fit right into the Congressional hearings. Your description fits most of our current Congress.

gagrice

Still for an individual owner of 1-3 cars, the chances of a recall are still quite low.

That has been my experience. In fact after 5 new GM trucks, 3 new Toyotas, 1 new Ford, 1 new Honda, 1 new VW, 1 new Mercedes, 2 new Datsuns and 1 Subaru, I have only had ONE recall. That was on the used 99 Ranger just last month. Just call me lucky.

PS
That is since 1964. I have had 3 lemons. All Japanese.

210delray

I figured we could find common ground on one issue: windbag politicians and safety "experts."

210delray

Was that before the days of the split system so one serves marginally as a backup brake. One master cylinder and if it fails--no brakes at all.

Actually it was on a '77 Chevy Impala, which did have the split system, which is really designed for brake line leakage. In such a case, you still have brakes on two wheels, assuming only one brake line fails. But with the master cylinder itself failing, there were no brakes at all -- the pedal went to the floor, at least until I pumped it. Brake warning light went on at the same time.

BTW, this was a good car to me; it was just well-used when I bought it -- 8 years old with over 104K miles. Parts to repair it were dirt cheap, and it was great for carpooling to work..

gagrice

My best brake story is my first trip to Alaska in 1970. The master cylinder went out on my 1967 VW Bug and I drove the last 1000 miles of the AlCan highway into Anchorage with the hand brake. All on ice and snow. The long down hill stretches covered with ice were exciting to say the least. The Bug is the best two wheel drive vehicle on snow known to man. Several stretches the snow was blowing up over the top of the car. I did not want to get stuck in the middle of the highway with all the big trucks. Maybe that is why I like big PU trucks and SUVs today.

doggrandma

Sweet! Thanks!

I may have to get out my red pen and hold it while reading the comments.

gavrik

Per Lexus website: 2005 ES330 comes with 5-speed automatic electronically controlled transmission w/intelligence (ECT-i)-inc:

Apparently, the "intelligence" term is used loosely. In my case, shifting from drive to neutral did absolutely nothing to the vehicle. It kept accelerating. Floor mat was NOT an issue. Neither was the gas pedal. I can totally see someone panicking big time while all this is happening too fast. Luckily for me, I was on an empty straight road, somewhat late at night in dry condition. This gave me time to think and make several different attempts before finally getting out of this situation alive.

If car manufacturers do away with ignition key and instead go with that push-button ignition, we are all screwed.

This is just a beginning for Toyota. Years of building customer reputation are just pissed away in a few short months.

anythngbutgm

LOL!!!

roho1

There's a follow up article in the WSJ this morning on same subject. Some interesting facts I wasn't aware of.

WSJ article

My faith in Toyota is eroding fast. I saw a video of a mechanic installing the shim, it was embarrassing. It looked like something a shade tree mechanic would do behind his garage to fix an old Model T. Stuffing it into a slot and pushing it around with a screw driver. I'm supposed to believe this is an engineered and safe fix? NOT! At this point I would demand a Denso pedal replacement.

gagrice

I assume you took the car to your Lexus dealer? What was the outcome with your car? I know I would not trust it after such an incident.

gagrice

I would demand a Denso pedal replacement.

I watched that video with complete disbelief. Who is Toyota trying to kid? If he could move that shim around to get it in just the right spot, what would keep it from shifting around during use. I see no way to fix the CTS throttle without a complete change out to a new re-designed model with high quality plastic that does not absorb moisture and expand. Evidently you cannot just exchange it for the Denso unit.

That said, the CTS throttle is not the cause of any of the accidents. This is just a smoke screen to cover up a much bigger problem in the ECUs that can and do fail causing UA.

imidazol97

>Stuffing it into a slot and pushing it around with a screw driver. I'm supposed to believe this is an engineered and safe fix? NOT! At this point I would demand a Denso pedal replacement.

Let's think through the logic here.

The plastic deteriorated at the friction point because it deteriorates with the presence of water. It either adsorbs it to the plastic or absorbs it.

Putting in a nickel-sized piece of metal to reduce the friction is done.

The plastic still attracts the moisture. Nothing was done for that alleged algorithm of how the water gets there from the floor and pedal being cold.

Eventually the plastic will still deteriorate further due to the friction on the less-than-durable plastic at the mesh location of the teeth.

The pedal will start sticking later.

Correction is to install a new pedal with a durable plastic used to give the feel of a resistance.

anythngbutgm

link title

imidazol97

>That said, the CTS throttle is not the cause of any of the accidents. This is just a smoke screen to cover up a much bigger problem in the ECUs that can and do fail causing UA

The new PR firms hired in DC by toyota probably are involved in trying to lobby the legislators. But I'm still waiting for some part of toyota's advertising money to start showing up with "people" attempting to improve the image about the magnitude of this problem on the internet. A while after the sludge settlement, I read an article, don't recall the source but it was credible, about businesses employing or having people inhouse involve themselves in discussion on the internet to improve various company's image. I still expect that to start happening around the internet world.

CBS radio news said the Camry had steering issues and that was reported by toyota yesterday. Did they misspeak and mean the Corolla's steering problem? Or is there yet another major safety problem coming?

Well, I thought it out and the home of $15 million Katie Couric could never be wrong. I found the recall:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/02/10/business/main6192754.shtml

Camry steering problem.

But to me it looks like any recall that they can announce they are doing with glee because it helps distract from the yet unexplained runaway acceleration.

anythngbutgm

link title

Through January, Toyota is still the most-searched brand among new-car shoppers on Cars.com.

graphicguy

roho.....interesting WSJ article. Thanks for the link.

Reading through the whole thing, in summation....

NHTSA....."we're a small agency. We rely on the manufacturers to provide us with data to make informed decisions. Toyota either didn't give us correct information, or hid pertinent facts."

Toyota....."We're Toyota. We'll give you what we want to give you, when and if we want to give it to you."

NHTSA-"OK....deaths, accidents and complaints continue after you 'gave us what you want to give us'." Guess what, you haven't been forthcoming. So, start a recall."

Toyota-"OK, we'll do it because you're forcing us to. But, we're still not giving you all the correct data to make an informed decision."

NHTSA-"Well, if that's your position, so be it. You haven't been forthcoming with us. People are still dying driving your cars, and they're still reporting a multitude of accidents regarding UA and braking issues. So, Congress would like to have a word with you, too. Maybe you'll see fit to be honest with them."

mikefm58

Eventually the plastic will still deteriorate further due to the friction on the less-than-durable plastic at the mesh location of the teeth.

But by then the vehicle will be long out of warranty with plenty of other worn parts Toyota can blame the problem on.

imidazol97

> So, Congress would like to have a word with you, too. Maybe you'll see fit to be honest with them."

I'm wondering if congress will be as nasty toward the Japanese at toyota as they were toward the US CEOs who came to testify.

Congress: How did you come here from California and Tokyo to testify.

Toyota: We flew.

Congress: Why didn't you drive? That was arrogant of you to have fly and save time? Were you afraid if you drove there might be a problem with another flaw in one of your cars?

Toyota: We have reported all our car's flaws to NHSTA.

Congress: We want you to go home and come back in two weeks. That time you better drive your cars to get here.

Toyota: But we are executives. Our time can be used on the flight for work and flyiing lets us keep up on our work at headquarters.

Congress: Drive, damn it, to prove that you care about the American way of government.

dturr

(CNN) -- In his most complete explanation of the problems that beleaguer Toyota, the company president said "we failed to connect the dots" with accelerator problems in the United States and Europe.

My youngest got past the join the dots phase aged 7.

hoyafan

Haven't seen this posted here yet - some good predictions for the future:

http://www.forbes.com/2010/02/04/flint-toyota-autos-business-tradein.html

stever

Toyota: We flew.

Congress: Why didn't you drive?

Because Honda loaned us one of their jets.

Speaking of, Honda now has about a million cars under recall in the last 15 months for faulty airbags (this is different from the power window fires). They've been doing good flying under the radar.

More recalls likely amid caution after Toyota woes (AP)

Or would you rather have a Land Rover?

Toyota Recalls Put into Context by Edmunds.com (BusinessWire)

imidazol97

>Because Honda loaned us one of their jets.

They also make lawn mowers.

deltheking

I have had 2 American lemons... All my Toyotas and Lexus have been flawless..Nissan was just above American cars... So what`s the point :shades: ???

smarty666

come on guys, you can't be surprised these big wigs from Toyota flew to DC; they are no different then Ford, GM, and Chrysler who all flew on private jets to their on the fire meetings with Congress and then wanted billions in tax payer dollars to bailout their companies in 08 until Congress and the American public blew the whistle on those corporate aholes!

interesting articles steve, especially the one from business wire! just goes to show how this thing with Toyota is being completely blown out of proportion by anti-Japanese haters; GM, Ford, and Chrysler still lead the pack with total complaints! What really busts my chops with GM and Ford is those promotions for Toyota owners they are giving out to come get one of their vehicles; it was not so long ago they were in crap shape and they both seem to forget it pretty quickly; they better stop it and watch their peas and q's because they are not completely out of the fire yet either! don't want to bite the hand that feeds you!

you would think with the way the media, comedians, and some posting on edmunds here were talking, this thing with Toyota is the sign of the four horsemen of the apocalypse! come on people, what Toyota did was wrong, they are going to pay the price and there going to fix the problems, lets not go psycho over this and act as if every Toyota is going to come flying across the highway and kill us all! being completely blown way out of proportion and worse then it really is!

deltheking

Just goes to show the media frenzy and trying to gain some channel ratings when infact they should be doing other things...Keeps things in perspective..Thank you Steve and Edmunds !! :P :shades:

graphicguy

Steve...good links...thanks, and thanks to Edmunds for the tracking of complaints. First question comes to mind, how will those numbers look at the end of this month? They may be skewed since Toyota hasn't sold much here recently since their cars were pulled from the market.

And secondly, how in the world did SMART escape any complaints? That car is down right miserable.

smarty666

come on man, there name is SMART for a reason, they are SMART at hiding problems!

deltheking

And you are SMART enough to figure out why SMART is so smart at hiding problems..LOL! Kidding !!;)

smarty666

you betcha!

imidazol97

>big wigs from Toyota flew to DC; they are no different then Ford, GM, and Chrysler who all flew on private jets to their on the fire meetings with Congress and then wanted billions in tax payer dollars to bailout their companies in 08

The congressfolk were trying to make a show out of their treatment of the US executives. They need to do the same with the Japanese folk. But that new PR firm they've employed in DC has probably already started smoothing things through with those greenbacks greasing the palms.

>GM, Ford, and Chrysler still lead the pack with total complaints!

GM has only been in a business about one year. How could they have more complaints than toyo?

anythngbutgm

They're usually pretty up to date.

Recalls

smarty666

what do you mean GM has been ins business for only one year? they most certainly have not, there one of the oldest manufactures, next to Ford, in the US, what are you talking about?

last year alone, I know almost 300-400k 09 Malibu's, Cobalt's, and several other models had recalls for a problem with the automatic transmission and steering column and a problem with the rear window defogger; thats just a few models in that recall!

here is proof, here is a listing of the total recalls on file with the NHTSA by manufacture; as you can see Ford and GM lead the pack, followed by Toyota and Chrysler!

http://www.mycarstats.com/reports/recalls.aspx

imidazol97

>what do you mean GM has been ins business for only one year?

You must be referring to the Motors Liquidation company. They no longer make cars.

http://data.cnbc.com/quotes/MTLQQ

The new General Motors, the one so many like to gleefully kvetch about receiving government money, has been building for about one year. Can't have it both ways complaining about receiving government money to start the new company off and then complain about the past.

smarty666

your talking crazy talk, its the same company, same name, same products, same product names, same logos, same slogans, same dealerships, etc - your talking about changes in semantics in the company

even if your logic was correct, and it isn't; they have had many recalls post restructuring and bailout/bankruptcy last year as they did before! and sure you can complain about gov't money when its the past stupidity of the company that was the contributing factor for needing gov't money in the first place

and for a company that you said has changed, they were producing large gas guzzling SUV's by the thousands when gas prices were over $4 bucks a gallon and said that was what Americans wanted; then when they had loads of big SUVs on their lots that they couldn't sell they whined about it; now post restructuring/bankruptcy since gas prices are down, they've increased SUV production again; they seemed to forget pretty quick of the $4 a gallon gas prices that most likely will return in the near future! still making the same stupid decisions! and they only got rid of a few divisions after the fed gov't had to recommend and brow beat them about doing it!

anythngbutgm

Yikes! I've always wondered if that piece of data was in existence.

Think of it this way, now that Toyota has taken the lead in recalls away from GM, Government Motors really IS a leader of nothing now! :P

xlu

Through January, Toyota is still the most-searched brand among new-car shoppers on Cars.com.

Sure, Toyota is also the most talked about brand in any forums or news media now!

smarty666

oh GM is a leader of something now, being Generally Mediocre!

anythngbutgm

Of course, this stuff helps sell newspapers and gain advertising dollars for their firms. :shades:

Toyota is making a lot of money for them right now. Keep the hysteria going for another month, there's loads of bucks to be had from all this...

nwng

I know the pro GM guys are jumping up and down. Does this make GM products more desirable? No. If toyota loses a big chunk of market share due to this, Ford, Honda and Hyundai will be reaping the benefits.

graphicguy

I just saw a blurb from somewhere that it's expected that Toyota will lose about 4% marketshare. I don't know how many units that is, but I'm guessing it's a lot. The article went on to say that Nissan and Honda probably won't benefit because they're guilty by association (Japanese based auto companies).

Ford, definitely will benefit. GM, a little less so, according to the article.

anythngbutgm

Supposedly they are going to be remaking the movie "Christine" but just to bring up to current times, the car that will be used will not be a Mopar but a champagne colored Toyota Camry LE (with hubcaps and cloth interior because they are the most common ) and rather than the lead roles being played by Kieth Gordon and that chick from Baywatch they will be played by the cast of the Twilight movies.

"OK, show me" will also be modernized to "Dude, show me" :P

Karen_S

Toyota owners/shoppers, what will you buy next time around?

If you're willing to talk with a reporter, send an email to pr@edmunds.com including your phone number and the make/model you would purchase next.

nippononly

From your article:

But three questions we are looking at now are:

The long-term effect: How much of the damage is permanent?

Who will gain sales from Toyota's fall from grace?

Has Toyota mishandled the situation?

I think any speculation on the first question is just that: pure speculation. It will almostcertainly turn out to b wrong.

I think the third question has already been answered, with a resounding YES.

I am most curious about question two: who will benefit this year as Toyota loses what I estimate (my pure speculation) to be 20% of its total sales to other companies?

I am guessing Honda and Ford, but there is room to add Hyundai and Chevy there. What do you think?