think you need to patent your mud stoppage technique Mac.
Yes, that's my daily driver, though that's not my daily drive thank goodness.
To put it on subject, that's a vehicle that although using technology from '96 also uses a DBW throttle, and the transmission is electronically controlled. It's a diesel and both the injection pump and fuel injectors are electronically controlled. If the throttle pedal, which has three separate outputs which must all match, is at variance with the fuel delivery from the injection pump then a code is set. Not only that, but the details of that code aren't just available to the dealership, or police if there was an accident, I can check it out with a $30 code reader myself.
you don't actually think that a little e-brake is going to stop a car under power, do you? it can't even stop a car from a stop if you push the gas enough.
2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
Oh, I agree. While the primary victims in this debacle are the customers, especially those that have suffered physically, Toyota employees below corporate management level, plus the dealer principals and their employees right on down to the lot boy are victims too.
I've been following this stuff the past two weeks and am coming to several conclusions:
1. As usual Congress is acting like a bunch of self serving morons, not unlike the jackass behavior of late in both parties on other issues like health care and extending unemployment benefits. 2. NHTSA is understaffed and sometimes asleep at the switch. 3. Toyota has done a very poor job handling this situation (toward both customers and dealers). 4. The melodrama is being overdone, perhaps by parties with personal vested interests and agendas. The media is unduly scaring people as is the government. I've seen various stats and all of them seem to point to a very small fraction of 1 percentage point probability of occurence. There have been more deaths from Explorer rollovers (which also was a much smaller probabality than our media and government scared people into thinking) than Toyota SUA incidents. 5. I think the SIU professor is being misquoted and maligned by people on either side of the argument. Watching the ABC video simply made two things clear; he was able to bring on SUA by creating a short which may or may not be likely in real world driving, but the reporter was also able to easily stop the Avalon after SUA by applying the brakes and shifting into neutral. 6. Toyota seemed to commit in Congressional hearings to develop a brake override in the near future for the recalled vehicles. They also admitted they didn't handle the issue well. What more do people want other than pursuing the all too American trait of suing everyone they can think of for as much money as they can get? 7. Survey after survey point to good Toyota product quality ratings, particularly long term compared to much of the competition. For example, the April CU just confirmed it again in their customer surveys, same for recent JD Powers. I know people who don't like the CU ratings disparage them, but Alan Mullaly told his staff to pay close attention to their results and concerns and I think he has a better handle on the industry than most of us. 8. Excessive bashing of Toyota isn't going to change anything. They admit they made some mistakes and are trying to fix them. Longer term, UAW plants aren't going to pick up more work because of this, but a continued unreasonable hostile attitude certainly won't encourage Toyota to continue expanding and employing Americans. Product can be shifted to plants outside of the US. In the long run, the low probability of SUA combined with better than average long term quality ratings will keep Americans buying their products over time. 9. I think like the Explorer incident, people should refresh their driving skills so they are prepared if the rare occurence occurs, but smart money will pick up on any good incentives or dealer markdowns over the next few months. 10. I owned an Explorer with the rollover tire recall and felt Ford did the right thing and I believe Toyota is going to do the same thing on my Camry once they are certain it resolves the issue. 11. I don't work for the any automaker or supplier. I'm just trying to use some analysis and common sense about it all. 12. Now for those of you with axes to grind, go ahead and take your shots.
I totally agree with you. There are too many paranoid people running around on this forum bashing Toyota. I own 1 Toyota now and 2(Camry) in the past besides many other brands. I can objectively say that Toyota and Honda are the two most reliable car companies out there. I have family members who works for GM, and I would buy a Toyota over a GM product any day.
Joe is a lifelong car fanatic and retired small businessman and former owner of a plastics manufacturing company. He got his degree from my alma mater, Villanova University (go Wildcats!) and hails from lemko's neck of the woods. He's very good on cars and economics (and one great model train layout builder).
Toyota In The Barrel: The media and certain congressional publicity hounds are gleefully and loudly poking at Toyota with a stick. John Stossel has written, "To put the Toyota problem in perspective, before all the media hype, 19 fatal accidents were linked to faulty gas pedals and floor mats over the last decade. That's fewer than two each year. Compare that to America’s 40,000 annual fatal car crashes."
[210delray: Right on, John, where is the outrage over the total death count? Fortunately, it's down somewhat, probably because of the recession.]
As David Champion, director of automobile testing for Consumer Reports, said, "I find it a little odd that we're going to have a Congressional hearing to look at those two deaths out of 40,000 ... you have to look at death rates in safety terms rationally."
[210delray: Go David! Just what I said in my prior posts!]
Investor's Business Daily editorialized: "While Honda recalled 636,000 models last month and Ford recalled more than 4 million vehicles last year, neither company was subjected to a Congressional Hearing," noted Americans for Tax Reform in a statement.
"Small wonder then that a Toyota internal memo declared the current climate in Washington is 'not industry friendly'."
IBD noted that "there's more than a whiff of Saul Alinsky's community organizing principles in this noisy government campaign against Toyota - 'Pick a target, personalize it, freeze it, polarize it.'"
Meanwhile, Congressional know-it-alls beat up a guy who runs a company that directly or indirectly employs over 200,000 Americans. How dumb is that? Rep. Marcy Kaptur (D-Ohio) complained that Toyoda wasn't sorry enough: "I am not satisfied with your testimony. I do not feel it reflects sufficient remorse for those who have died, and I do not think you have accurately reflected the large number of complaints that have been filed for more than a decade."
Then there was Rep. Bobby Rush (D-Ill.), who referred to Toyotas as "literal killing machines." Jerk.
Mark Tapscott has pointed out that 31 of House Democrats quizzing Toyota execs got UAW campaign cash.
Edward Niedermeyer of TTAC has written, "Watching congress tackle the problem of out-of-control cars is something like watching a panel of tenured literature professors struggle to open a jar of pickles: the problem isn't necessarily that the individuals involved aren't intelligent, it's that they are stunningly ill-prepared for the task.
"Not only are most representatives not trained to understand the complexities of automotive systems, they're also constitutionally incapable of contemplating the possibility that as one of America's best-selling brands, Toyota likely sells a lot of cars to stupid people. The possibility that even a small percentage of the unintended acceleration cases might have been caused by (or at least were not averted because of) human error was, at best, only obliquely hinted at for the simple reason that congressional hearings always require a satisfyingly sinister scapegoat."
Furthermore, Car & Driver has demonstrated that cars with jammed accelerator pedals can be stopped, including a Toyota Camry: "With the Camry's throttle pinned while going 70 mph, the brakes easily overcame all 268 horsepower straining against them and stopped the car in 190 feet - that's a foot shorter than the performance of a Ford Taurus without any gas-pedal problems and just 16 feet longer than with the Camry's throttle closed."
Look, I don't want to blame every outta-control car crash (regardless of the make of car) on driver error. There may well be mechanical/electrical gremlins at work.[Conspiracy and tea party alert for gagrice!]But I am also cynical enough to realize that large part of the hysteria over Toyota's woes is due to Democrats with vested interests in Government Motors, their UAW supporters who loathe Japanese car companies and an administration which owes its very existence to the union vote.
If there were going to be 'fair' hearings, the U.S. government and all its representatives would have recused themselves the proceedings.
The End
Except for that right-wing political rant toward the end, I have to hand it to Joe. Bravo!
I can agree with what Joe says. It is what he does not say they leaves questions in my mind. Why doesn't Toyota have any one that can address the issues of UA? They sent in a bunch of execs and marketing people. Not one witness that was able to convince me and I am sure a big portion of the public that Toyota DBW systems are better than the older systems.
I just don't like the lag you get with drive by wire throttles. My 05 Passat had it, the 05 GMC Hybrid had it BIG time and my 07 Sequoia has it. Give me direct linkage any day of the week. It is not the pause that refreshes.
They sent in a bunch of execs and marketing people.
Not sure, but I think that you have to be invited to testify at a Congressional hearing.
I just don't like the lag you get with drive by wire throttles. My 05 Passat had it, the 05 GMC Hybrid had it BIG time and my 07 Sequoia has it. Give me direct linkage any day of the week. It is not the pause that refreshes.
Agreed, but do any of todays cars have an old-fashioned linkage and cable?
Yes, you must be invited to speak at a congressional hearing. It's not a town hall session or a karaoke bar. :P Plus, do you think our grandstanding representatives would have tolerated boring "engineer talk" from the Toyota side?
The more I think about, the more I think the order of witnesses should have been reversed for the first day of the hearing: Start with LaHood, then the Toyota execs, then the "Kane-Gilbert Show," and finish with the teary-eyed woman and her hubby.
Of course this would have violated all tenets of high sensationalism.
Thats how it should be. I drove a Hyundai while my car was bieng prepped by the dealer.....and no I dont drive a Hyundai, I'm sure they make a good car, they sell lots of em, but that stupid shifter took forever to get in/out of the gear I needed.
Try doing that at night without turning the lights on in the car!
I think Mercedes is the company that first came up with the gated shifter. Of course, this meant that everyone else had to copy this "brilliant" idea.
Back in the 70s, a lot of plebeian car companies were similarly copying the Mercedes grille, complete with stand-up hood ornament. At least it only affected the look of the car and not its operation.
Ah...you know it's only a few deaths here, and a few deaths there, some other accidents attributed to Toyota's problems somewhere else....some harrowing expereinces that didn't turn into accedents or deaths.....but nothing to worry about.
It's acceptable, don't let accidents or deaths get in the way of big business. Naw....can't have that.
I was just thinking last night, and I've stated before, Toyota had an entire gallery of people ranging from employees and dealers, as well as lawyers at the Congressional hearing. They had no less than 2 Presidents of Toyota U.S.A, and the big kahuna himself, Mr Toyoda, along with his translator.
You think maybe, just maybe, if any of these people, even Mr Toyoda himself, would have asked Congress to include even just one of their engineers to speak, and explain their exhaustive research and how they came to the conclusions they came to (floormats and sticky pedals being the only cause of these deaths, accidents, harrowing experiences in Toyota/Lexus vehicles), and how they absolutely ruled out electronics/software, and the research that led them there, Congress might, perhaps want to hear that testimony? Even just a little bit?
You think maybe it would have cleared up many points where the very top brass of Toyota kept responding with "I don't know"? Congress and the American public (and probably countries throughout the world) may have the slightest interest in hearing that testimony?
Let's be real here. Minimize this all you want. That's what Toyota wants you to do. But one death is too many. One accident is too many. One harrowing experience as was suffered by the Smiths is too many.
This discussion isn't about General Motors. It's not about Ford. It's not about Audi. It's about Toyota.
Why didn't Toyota/Lexus get the Smith's car and tear it apart to find out the root cause? Why has Toyota/Lexus dismissed so many of the UA and brake issue reports? Why weren't any of their internal investigations put into the public record, given under oath. Why? Because Toyota/Lexus doesn't want you to know. Or worse, doesn't care.
Why don't they want you to know? Well, from where I sit, it's because the problem is wider and deeper than they want to divulge. They want the lawyers to duke it out to limit their already stockpiling lawsuits. They don't want to pay for what will end up being recalls for brake over ride installation (which still won't solve the problem, but will give a level of safety for those who do experience UA in their vehicles). 8.5 million recalled vehicles will only be a drop in the bucket compared to recalling every vehicle they produced over the last 5-6 years.
Toyota is choosing saving money (as has been proven over and over again) over the safety of their customers. That is the bottom line. It's OK, I suppose, until it happens to you or a loved one. Or, if you happen to be on the road at the same place, at the same time, one of these UA affected Toyotas goes berzerk and you have to and dodge them.
Slice it, dice it, minimize it, spin it however you want to. Toyota will even help you do that. As Mr Lentz testified, there could be as many as 70% of Toyota vehicles on the road that could be affected, even with the current recall in place. And, that neither Toyota (well, probably Toyota knows as I'm sure they've run the numbers), nor NHTSA, nor even the public knows about all that could be affected.
As Mr. LaHood said, these cars are unsafe. Dismiss him. Call him a pariah....even tell him you don't like him. But, he's the #1 automotive safety advocate in our country. He's also investigating the electronics/software glitch because he feels there's more to the UA than just floormats or sticky pedals, which tells me that even with the current recalls, he still feels there are other issues that makes these vehicles unsafe.
Now, if all that is OK with you, I'm certainly not going to change your mind. But, I won't put up with Toyota's dancing, back pedaling, slight of hand, dismissive, arrogant, theater of the absurd behavior in trying to skirt these serious issues. Lives and public safety are at stake.
They had no less than 2 Presidents of Toyota U.S.A, and the big kahuna himself, Mr Toyoda, along with his translator.
I have noticed in this discussion a deliberate attempt to discredit every witness against Toyota. Scrutinizing to a minute detail the education and background qualifications of every witness that is trying to get at the root cause of these UA cases. Where is the scrutiny of the Toyota witnesses. How is Lentz qualified to talk about UA? Or Inabe and Toyoda. I don't think any of them are qualified to be witnesses.
Why hasn't Congress subpoenaed the head honcho of Toyota engineering? Do you think Toyota would let him or her leave Japan to testify? It looks to me like Toyota depends on their prowess in court, more than they do on their ability to design safe vehicles. If they spent as much on engineering, as they do on attorneys to hide their faults, they could have come up with safer products.
Well after all is said and done, after all the accusations and grandstanding, and after all the "what ifs", the "its possible", the "could have happened" and all the other rampant speculation, there is still "0" proof of any defect in the Toyota electronics.
The way to counter the negative publicity now that toyota has been caught is to have many people protesting how unfairly toyota has been treated. They will protest how the critics are just hyperactive complainers. They will point out how valiantly toyota has worked to keep your safety first. (Ever notice how politicians always say how they are "working" for the voter? Or they can't talk about being caught with interns in the ovum office because they have to get back to working for the people? Does that sound familiar here as the talking point?--toyota is working for your safety.)
Have a friend visiting from Michigan. She leases a typical rental fodder toyota Camry in the Hertz silver color. While talking again about what to do if her toyota should become Christine on her, she commented about how funny the cruise control acts. It works strangely so she just doesn't use it.
Funny how the one slip Lentz made about the additional problems beyond the red herring floor mat and sticking toyota-design pedal friction point was about cruise control.
I'm advising her to take it to the dealer and get a document that says she complained about the operation of the cruise.
there is still "0" proof of any defect in the Toyota electronics.
That would depend on what you consider electronics. Would that include the Throttle body controller changed out on the Avalon that was brought to the dealer with WOT? Or the sensors they changed on that vehicle. It is possible that it is all hardware problems. Two things stick out. Lousy diagnostic software and no fail safe backup. Not everyone is as capable as the gentleman that risked life and limb to get his car to a dealership with the problem as it was happening. Too many cases of UA are not leaving any trail in the diagnostics. That is why I suspect faulty firmware. With hardware failures you have a smoking gun to replace. Toyota would like US to believe it is all hardware. Yet if that was the case they would not have TSBs to upgrade Firmware. The Prius brake failures was purely a firmware glitch. I would suspect the same for the Corolla steering that is under investigation. Was that brought up in the hearings? Every time Toyota makes a change in the DBW systems new problems pop up. I think they need to spend a little more time and money on engineering.
gagrice....I don't know if U.S. law can reach as far as having subpoena power to a non-U.S. resident or citizen. I expect that Toyota, and specifically, Mr. Lentz knows that. Which is the entire reason he kept deflecting much of the questioning as having ties to Japan. I'm not certain that Mr Inaba is a U.S. citizen either....even though he works and lives here. Mr Toyoda received his MBA here in the U.S., as has been previously stated. But, aside from that, I'm fairly certain he's a Japanese citizen.
However, I know the Toyota engineering arm in the U.S. is sizable. They have engineers in CA. I know the engineering staff in their HQ in KY is large. Plus, much engineering for at least the Camry and Corolla (and their derivatives) is done here.
Out of all of that engineering staff, Toyota couldn't have found at least one of them who could clear up at least some of the questions that went unanswered? None of them knew of the exhaustive research done ruling out electronics and software? Congress wouldn't have let any of them testify?
More likely, Toyota didn't want any of them to testify. More likely, Toyota wouldn't divulge to Congress who those people even were.
I'm hoping LaHood is compelling Toyota for access to those engineering people, to hear exactly what the exhaustive research entailed that ruled out electronics and software unequivocally.
Somewhere, probably deep in the bowels of Toyota, exists a report showing the financial impact of doing a more far reaching recall of a software/electronics recall, if those documents haven't already been destroyed. I'd start looking in Inaba's office to start, though. My guess is that's what the SEC is looking for in their recent investigations of Toyota.
Given the report showing how Toyota saved 100s of millions by negotiating with NHTSA, and stalling safety implementation, I'm thinking those types of documents either exist, or at least did exist at one point in time. Someone, somewhere had to author those reports, too. I'd want to talk to that guy/girl...the person(s) whose job it was to list the savings to Toyota by circumventing U.S. safety requirements.
houdini....that's exactly what Toyota wants you to believe. The research they've done regarding electronics/software (which we don't have access to, conveniently) says "nothing to worry about....get some new floormats and a new accelerator pedal and all will be well".
If that research could clear all of this up, do you think Toyota might want to share that? It sure would make for an easier time for them.
Zero proof?
How many people should testify that have had UA, cruise control and brake issues with their Toy/Lex vehicle? How many would be enough? 1 (obviously not, since I guess the Smiths don't count)? 5? 500?
How about those who can't testify because they're dead?
This isn't just about Toy/Lex owners. This is about all those who share the road with those owners. A two ton vehicle, hurtling at elevated speeds, out of control, on the roads doesn't only affect the driver of those vehicles. It affects everyone around them, too.
What would be sensational enough before it would really (and I mean REALLY) get our attention? Would it take a multi-vehicle fiery crash to do it? Isn't that what we're trying to prevent from happening?
Amen to that! I much prefer my Mazda 3's simple manual climate control to our Ford's dual auto controls. It's almost impossible to just get fresh air without making it too hot or too cold. I've heard way too many complaints about factory GPS systems to want one of those.
Some of the fancy electronics on cars are mandated by government. ESC, for example. This gives the car's computer even more control over the vehicle. I don't like that idea.
Some of the fancy electronics on cars are mandated by government. ESC, for example. This gives the car's computer even more control over the vehicle. I don't like that idea.
How many mnemonics is enough? I don't like ABS, traction control or stability control. Why am I forced to have them? Each one tries to replace the human element and could end up with unacceptable results. Every new DBW device takes more away from the driver giving a false sense of security.
That's all good and well, but, most people are way better off with ABS, traction control, and ESC. You have certainly experienced how many people drive. In a perfect world we would be able to custom order an automobile and have what suits our wants and needs.
I hope you don't have beach front property on the Big Island. We got a tsunami warning going on due to hit in about 90 minutes. Hilo being hit first. Just thought about it. The Toyota distributor has a couple thousand cars parked in the tsunami zone. Hmm...
not sure that you and joe are making your alma mater proud. the lack of questioning of what others' say and then using it to support you position is bothersome. for example, even if he did not originally write it, there is no way the engine is generating 'all 268 horsepower' at 70 mph. maybe a hundred or so. it's probably turning 2200 rpm or so. so much for the 'car guy' credentials.
2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
How many mnemonics is enough? I don't like ABS, traction control or stability control. Why am I forced to have them? Each one tries to replace the human element and could end up with unacceptable results. Every new DBW device takes more away from the driver giving a false sense of security.
I've been down that road already with a long-time Edmunds poster about a little thing called ESC. I stated that it didn't matter if my new car had ESC or not, that I'm fine with good 'ole standard brakes, thank you very much. How many gadgets, even "safety-saving" gadgets like ESC, do we need? I look at it as more dumbing-down of drivers. Throw us another gadget so that we can feel "safe"...almost as if our rig is "thinking" for us.
I don't like that...we should know how to avoid accidentals on our own...how about driving smarter, not always faster, for instance?
Might we start there? Or am I not thinking liberally enough in this regard? :shades:
i have to somewhat retract my post. after finding and reading the C&D article, the car was in low or a lower gear so the throttle could be held wide open @ 70 mph. of course, is the engine making max horsepower at max rpms? no. found some info:
you can't read a dyno graph? max horsepower it reached way before WOT. revisit the link and the graph and look how much the horsepower drops by the rev limit. my retraction was because, until i read read the article, i didn't know the car was held in a low(er) gear. it does not change the fact that the car was making much less than 268 hp.
2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
I don't like ABS, traction control or stability control. Why am I forced to have them?
Because stability control has been proven conclusively to save lives. It may be the biggest lifesaver in cars since the seat belt. When you get stability control, ABS and traction control are integral to the system.
Earlier it was shown that ABS alone did not reduce deaths in the real world; there was basically no net positive or negative effect.
You people are screaming about the small number of deaths due to alleged Toyota sudden acceleration, but you're willing to tolerate many, many more deaths by making stability control an option? NHTSA has determined the lifesaving benefits justify requiring stability control for all 2012 model cars and light trucks. Even today, the vast majority of models have it standard.
BTW, the system will kick in only if you're in danger of losing control of the car. It does not intervene at all during normal, sane driving. Its greatest benefit will probably be to the average driver when he or she encounters unexpected slippery conditions, like black ice on a curve or bridge.
For most drivers ESC isn't likely to activate frequently. It won't prevent most of the fender-bender crashes that occur so often in stop and go traffic, for example. It's designed to help a driver in the relatively rare event of loss of control at high speed or on a slippery road.
I don't like that...we should know how to avoid accidentals on our own...how about driving smarter, not always faster, for instance?
Might we start there? Or am I not thinking liberally enough in this regard?
The problem with teaching people to drive "smarter" is that we haven't found the secret to keep them from crashing! This has been debated many times on Edmunds and other websites. It's not lack of skill that's the problem for the most part, it's risk-taking or other bad attitudes that cause most crashes. Also, most people believe themselves to be superior drivers; it's always the "other guy" who's the problem. But we can't all be above average drivers.
And even if we found a "magic bullet," how much do you suppose it would cost to re-train all 200 million drivers in this tax-averse country?
Have a friend visiting from Michigan. She leases a typical rental fodder toyota Camry in the Hertz silver color. While talking again about what to do if her toyota should become Christine on her, she commented about how funny the cruise control acts. It works strangely so she just doesn't use it.
Maybe she should drive a "typical rental fodder" Impala next time. I'll ignore the Christine reference, but I would like to know exactly how the cruise control is acting "funny." Symptoms?
Comments
Yes, that's my daily driver, though that's not my daily drive thank goodness.
To put it on subject, that's a vehicle that although using technology from '96 also uses a DBW throttle, and the transmission is electronically controlled.
It's a diesel and both the injection pump and fuel injectors are electronically controlled.
If the throttle pedal, which has three separate outputs which must all match, is at variance with the fuel delivery from the injection pump then a code is set.
Not only that, but the details of that code aren't just available to the dealership, or police if there was an accident, I can check it out with a $30 code reader myself.
1. As usual Congress is acting like a bunch of self serving morons, not unlike the jackass behavior of late in both parties on other issues like health care and extending unemployment benefits.
2. NHTSA is understaffed and sometimes asleep at the switch.
3. Toyota has done a very poor job handling this situation (toward both customers and dealers).
4. The melodrama is being overdone, perhaps by parties with personal vested interests and agendas. The media is unduly scaring people as is the government. I've seen various stats and all of them seem to point to a very small fraction of 1 percentage point probability of occurence. There have been more deaths from Explorer rollovers (which also was a much smaller probabality than our media and government scared people into thinking) than Toyota SUA incidents.
5. I think the SIU professor is being misquoted and maligned by people on either side of the argument. Watching the ABC video simply made two things clear; he was able to bring on SUA by creating a short which may or may not be likely in real world driving, but the reporter was also able to easily stop the Avalon after SUA by applying the brakes and shifting into neutral.
6. Toyota seemed to commit in Congressional hearings to develop a brake override in the near future for the recalled vehicles. They also admitted they didn't handle the issue well. What more do people want other than pursuing the all too American trait of suing everyone they can think of for as much money as they can get?
7. Survey after survey point to good Toyota product quality ratings, particularly long term compared to much of the competition. For example, the April CU just confirmed it again in their customer surveys, same for recent JD Powers. I know people who don't like the CU ratings disparage them, but Alan Mullaly told his staff to pay close attention to their results and concerns and I think he has a better handle on the industry than most of us.
8. Excessive bashing of Toyota isn't going to change anything. They admit they made some mistakes and are trying to fix them. Longer term, UAW plants aren't going to pick up more work because of this, but a continued unreasonable hostile attitude certainly won't encourage Toyota to continue expanding and employing Americans. Product can be shifted to plants outside of the US. In the long run, the low probability of SUA combined with better than average long term quality ratings will keep Americans buying their products over time.
9. I think like the Explorer incident, people should refresh their driving skills so they are prepared if the rare occurence occurs, but smart money will pick up on any good incentives or dealer markdowns over the next few months.
10. I owned an Explorer with the rollover tire recall and felt Ford did the right thing and I believe Toyota is going to do the same thing on my Camry once they are certain it resolves the issue.
11. I don't work for the any automaker or supplier. I'm just trying to use some analysis and common sense about it all.
12. Now for those of you with axes to grind, go ahead and take your shots.
Of course it helps that most of your views are in line with mine!
Joe is a lifelong car fanatic and retired small businessman and former owner of a plastics manufacturing company. He got his degree from my alma mater, Villanova University (go Wildcats!) and hails from lemko's neck of the woods. He's very good on cars and economics (and one great model train layout builder).
Check out the 2nd entry under Feb 26
Part One
Toyota In The Barrel: The media and certain congressional publicity hounds are gleefully and loudly poking at Toyota with a stick. John Stossel has written, "To put the Toyota problem in perspective, before all the media hype, 19 fatal accidents were linked to faulty gas pedals and floor mats over the last decade. That's fewer than two each year. Compare that to America’s 40,000 annual fatal car crashes."
[210delray: Right on, John, where is the outrage over the total death count? Fortunately, it's down somewhat, probably because of the recession.]
As David Champion, director of automobile testing for Consumer Reports, said, "I find it a little odd that we're going to have a Congressional hearing to look at those two deaths out of 40,000 ... you have to look at death rates in safety terms rationally."
[210delray: Go David! Just what I said in my prior posts!]
Investor's Business Daily editorialized: "While Honda recalled 636,000 models last month and Ford recalled more than 4 million vehicles last year, neither company was subjected to a Congressional Hearing," noted Americans for Tax Reform in a statement.
"Small wonder then that a Toyota internal memo declared the current climate in Washington is 'not industry friendly'."
IBD noted that "there's more than a whiff of Saul Alinsky's community organizing principles in this noisy government campaign against Toyota - 'Pick a target, personalize it, freeze it, polarize it.'"
Meanwhile, Congressional know-it-alls beat up a guy who runs a company that directly or indirectly employs over 200,000 Americans. How dumb is that? Rep. Marcy Kaptur (D-Ohio) complained that Toyoda wasn't sorry enough: "I am not satisfied with your testimony. I do not feel it reflects sufficient remorse for those who have died, and I do not think you have accurately reflected the large number of complaints that have been filed for more than a decade."
Then there was Rep. Bobby Rush (D-Ill.), who referred to Toyotas as "literal killing machines." Jerk.
Mark Tapscott has pointed out that 31 of House Democrats quizzing Toyota execs got UAW campaign cash.
...to be continued...
Edward Niedermeyer of TTAC has written, "Watching congress tackle the problem of out-of-control cars is something like watching a panel of tenured literature professors struggle to open a jar of pickles: the problem isn't necessarily that the individuals involved aren't intelligent, it's that they are stunningly ill-prepared for the task.
"Not only are most representatives not trained to understand the complexities of automotive systems, they're also constitutionally incapable of contemplating the possibility that as one of America's best-selling brands, Toyota likely sells a lot of cars to stupid people. The possibility that even a small percentage of the unintended acceleration cases might have been caused by (or at least were not averted because of) human error was, at best, only obliquely hinted at for the simple reason that congressional hearings always require a satisfyingly sinister scapegoat."
Furthermore, Car & Driver has demonstrated that cars with jammed accelerator pedals can be stopped, including a Toyota Camry: "With the Camry's throttle pinned while going 70 mph, the brakes easily overcame all 268 horsepower straining against them and stopped the car in 190 feet - that's a foot shorter than the performance of a Ford Taurus without any gas-pedal problems and just 16 feet longer than with the Camry's throttle closed."
Look, I don't want to blame every outta-control car crash (regardless of the make of car) on driver error. There may well be mechanical/electrical gremlins at work. [Conspiracy and tea party alert for gagrice!] But I am also cynical enough to realize that large part of the hysteria over Toyota's woes is due to Democrats with vested interests in Government Motors, their UAW supporters who loathe Japanese car companies and an administration which owes its very existence to the union vote.
If there were going to be 'fair' hearings, the U.S. government and all its representatives would have recused themselves the proceedings.
The End
Except for that right-wing political rant toward the end, I have to hand it to Joe. Bravo!
I just don't like the lag you get with drive by wire throttles. My 05 Passat had it, the 05 GMC Hybrid had it BIG time and my 07 Sequoia has it. Give me direct linkage any day of the week. It is not the pause that refreshes.
Not sure, but I think that you have to be invited to testify at a Congressional hearing.
I just don't like the lag you get with drive by wire throttles. My 05 Passat had it, the 05 GMC Hybrid had it BIG time and my 07 Sequoia has it. Give me direct linkage any day of the week. It is not the pause that refreshes.
Agreed, but do any of todays cars have an old-fashioned linkage and cable?
The more I think about, the more I think the order of witnesses should have been reversed for the first day of the hearing: Start with LaHood, then the Toyota execs, then the "Kane-Gilbert Show," and finish with the teary-eyed woman and her hubby.
Of course this would have violated all tenets of high sensationalism.
Easy on the Karaoke bar comments. I spent about 15 years of my off time in the Karaoke bars. I did MY WAY....
I would have liked to hear you sing Sinatra's anthem. You seem to be a natural for it.
I'm hitting the sack.
Try doing that at night without turning the lights on in the car!
Back in the 70s, a lot of plebeian car companies were similarly copying the Mercedes grille, complete with stand-up hood ornament. At least it only affected the look of the car and not its operation.
It's acceptable, don't let accidents or deaths get in the way of big business. Naw....can't have that.
I was just thinking last night, and I've stated before, Toyota had an entire gallery of people ranging from employees and dealers, as well as lawyers at the Congressional hearing. They had no less than 2 Presidents of Toyota U.S.A, and the big kahuna himself, Mr Toyoda, along with his translator.
You think maybe, just maybe, if any of these people, even Mr Toyoda himself, would have asked Congress to include even just one of their engineers to speak, and explain their exhaustive research and how they came to the conclusions they came to (floormats and sticky pedals being the only cause of these deaths, accidents, harrowing experiences in Toyota/Lexus vehicles), and how they absolutely ruled out electronics/software, and the research that led them there, Congress might, perhaps want to hear that testimony? Even just a little bit?
You think maybe it would have cleared up many points where the very top brass of Toyota kept responding with "I don't know"? Congress and the American public (and probably countries throughout the world) may have the slightest interest in hearing that testimony?
Let's be real here. Minimize this all you want. That's what Toyota wants you to do. But one death is too many. One accident is too many. One harrowing experience as was suffered by the Smiths is too many.
This discussion isn't about General Motors. It's not about Ford. It's not about Audi. It's about Toyota.
Why didn't Toyota/Lexus get the Smith's car and tear it apart to find out the root cause? Why has Toyota/Lexus dismissed so many of the UA and brake issue reports? Why weren't any of their internal investigations put into the public record, given under oath. Why? Because Toyota/Lexus doesn't want you to know. Or worse, doesn't care.
Why don't they want you to know? Well, from where I sit, it's because the problem is wider and deeper than they want to divulge. They want the lawyers to duke it out to limit their already stockpiling lawsuits. They don't want to pay for what will end up being recalls for brake over ride installation (which still won't solve the problem, but will give a level of safety for those who do experience UA in their vehicles). 8.5 million recalled vehicles will only be a drop in the bucket compared to recalling every vehicle they produced over the last 5-6 years.
Toyota is choosing saving money (as has been proven over and over again) over the safety of their customers. That is the bottom line. It's OK, I suppose, until it happens to you or a loved one. Or, if you happen to be on the road at the same place, at the same time, one of these UA affected Toyotas goes berzerk and you have to and dodge them.
Slice it, dice it, minimize it, spin it however you want to. Toyota will even help you do that. As Mr Lentz testified, there could be as many as 70% of Toyota vehicles on the road that could be affected, even with the current recall in place. And, that neither Toyota (well, probably Toyota knows as I'm sure they've run the numbers), nor NHTSA, nor even the public knows about all that could be affected.
As Mr. LaHood said, these cars are unsafe. Dismiss him. Call him a pariah....even tell him you don't like him. But, he's the #1 automotive safety advocate in our country. He's also investigating the electronics/software glitch because he feels there's more to the UA than just floormats or sticky pedals, which tells me that even with the current recalls, he still feels there are other issues that makes these vehicles unsafe.
Now, if all that is OK with you, I'm certainly not going to change your mind. But, I won't put up with Toyota's dancing, back pedaling, slight of hand, dismissive, arrogant, theater of the absurd behavior in trying to skirt these serious issues. Lives and public safety are at stake.
I have noticed in this discussion a deliberate attempt to discredit every witness against Toyota. Scrutinizing to a minute detail the education and background qualifications of every witness that is trying to get at the root cause of these UA cases. Where is the scrutiny of the Toyota witnesses. How is Lentz qualified to talk about UA? Or Inabe and Toyoda. I don't think any of them are qualified to be witnesses.
Why hasn't Congress subpoenaed the head honcho of Toyota engineering? Do you think Toyota would let him or her leave Japan to testify? It looks to me like Toyota depends on their prowess in court, more than they do on their ability to design safe vehicles. If they spent as much on engineering, as they do on attorneys to hide their faults, they could have come up with safer products.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
My guess that would include every DBW vehicle ToyLex has built. I am waiting to get my letter of upgrade on my Sequoia. :sick:
Have a friend visiting from Michigan. She leases a typical rental fodder toyota Camry in the Hertz silver color. While talking again about what to do if her toyota should become Christine on her, she commented about how funny the cruise control acts. It works strangely so she just doesn't use it.
Funny how the one slip Lentz made about the additional problems beyond the red herring floor mat and sticking toyota-design pedal friction point was about cruise control.
I'm advising her to take it to the dealer and get a document that says she complained about the operation of the cruise.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
That would depend on what you consider electronics. Would that include the Throttle body controller changed out on the Avalon that was brought to the dealer with WOT? Or the sensors they changed on that vehicle. It is possible that it is all hardware problems. Two things stick out. Lousy diagnostic software and no fail safe backup. Not everyone is as capable as the gentleman that risked life and limb to get his car to a dealership with the problem as it was happening. Too many cases of UA are not leaving any trail in the diagnostics. That is why I suspect faulty firmware. With hardware failures you have a smoking gun to replace. Toyota would like US to believe it is all hardware. Yet if that was the case they would not have TSBs to upgrade Firmware. The Prius brake failures was purely a firmware glitch. I would suspect the same for the Corolla steering that is under investigation. Was that brought up in the hearings? Every time Toyota makes a change in the DBW systems new problems pop up. I think they need to spend a little more time and money on engineering.
However, I know the Toyota engineering arm in the U.S. is sizable. They have engineers in CA. I know the engineering staff in their HQ in KY is large. Plus, much engineering for at least the Camry and Corolla (and their derivatives) is done here.
Out of all of that engineering staff, Toyota couldn't have found at least one of them who could clear up at least some of the questions that went unanswered? None of them knew of the exhaustive research done ruling out electronics and software? Congress wouldn't have let any of them testify?
More likely, Toyota didn't want any of them to testify. More likely, Toyota wouldn't divulge to Congress who those people even were.
I'm hoping LaHood is compelling Toyota for access to those engineering people, to hear exactly what the exhaustive research entailed that ruled out electronics and software unequivocally.
Somewhere, probably deep in the bowels of Toyota, exists a report showing the financial impact of doing a more far reaching recall of a software/electronics recall, if those documents haven't already been destroyed. I'd start looking in Inaba's office to start, though. My guess is that's what the SEC is looking for in their recent investigations of Toyota.
Given the report showing how Toyota saved 100s of millions by negotiating with NHTSA, and stalling safety implementation, I'm thinking those types of documents either exist, or at least did exist at one point in time. Someone, somewhere had to author those reports, too. I'd want to talk to that guy/girl...the person(s) whose job it was to list the savings to Toyota by circumventing U.S. safety requirements.
If that research could clear all of this up, do you think Toyota might want to share that? It sure would make for an easier time for them.
Zero proof?
How many people should testify that have had UA, cruise control and brake issues with their Toy/Lex vehicle? How many would be enough? 1 (obviously not, since I guess the Smiths don't count)? 5? 500?
How about those who can't testify because they're dead?
This isn't just about Toy/Lex owners. This is about all those who share the road with those owners. A two ton vehicle, hurtling at elevated speeds, out of control, on the roads doesn't only affect the driver of those vehicles. It affects everyone around them, too.
What would be sensational enough before it would really (and I mean REALLY) get our attention? Would it take a multi-vehicle fiery crash to do it? Isn't that what we're trying to prevent from happening?
But remind me not to buy a used car from you.
Some of the fancy electronics on cars are mandated by government. ESC, for example. This gives the car's computer even more control over the vehicle. I don't like that idea.
How many mnemonics is enough? I don't like ABS, traction control or stability control. Why am I forced to have them? Each one tries to replace the human element and could end up with unacceptable results. Every new DBW device takes more away from the driver giving a false sense of security.
In a perfect world we would be able to custom order an automobile and have what suits our wants and needs.
the lack of questioning of what others' say and then using it to support you position is bothersome.
for example, even if he did not originally write it, there is no way the engine is generating 'all 268 horsepower' at 70 mph. maybe a hundred or so.
it's probably turning 2200 rpm or so.
so much for the 'car guy' credentials.
I've been down that road already with a long-time Edmunds poster about a little thing called ESC. I stated that it didn't matter if my new car had ESC or not, that I'm fine with good 'ole standard brakes, thank you very much. How many gadgets, even "safety-saving" gadgets like ESC, do we need? I look at it as more dumbing-down of drivers. Throw us another gadget so that we can feel "safe"...almost as if our rig is "thinking" for us.
I don't like that...we should know how to avoid accidentals on our own...how about driving smarter, not always faster, for instance?
Might we start there?
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
of course, is the engine making max horsepower at max rpms? no.
found some info:
look for dyno chart near the bottom
also:
one more thing and i will shut up.
the momentum (weight * velocity) @120 mph is much greater than @ 70 mph
Somewhat??
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
Oh, swell. Thanks for THAT image! :sick:
I'll never be able to read your posts the same way again....
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
The Toyota dealer is only a few feet above sea level.
my retraction was because, until i read read the article, i didn't know the car was held in a low(er) gear.
it does not change the fact that the car was making much less than 268 hp.
So you are retracting your factual statements because you were wrong, but your above insult stands?
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
Because stability control has been proven conclusively to save lives. It may be the biggest lifesaver in cars since the seat belt. When you get stability control, ABS and traction control are integral to the system.
Earlier it was shown that ABS alone did not reduce deaths in the real world; there was basically no net positive or negative effect.
You people are screaming about the small number of deaths due to alleged Toyota sudden acceleration, but you're willing to tolerate many, many more deaths by making stability control an option? NHTSA has determined the lifesaving benefits justify requiring stability control for all 2012 model cars and light trucks. Even today, the vast majority of models have it standard.
BTW, the system will kick in only if you're in danger of losing control of the car. It does not intervene at all during normal, sane driving. Its greatest benefit will probably be to the average driver when he or she encounters unexpected slippery conditions, like black ice on a curve or bridge.
For most drivers ESC isn't likely to activate frequently. It won't prevent most of the fender-bender crashes that occur so often in stop and go traffic, for example. It's designed to help a driver in the relatively rare event of loss of control at high speed or on a slippery road.
Read more about stability control here.
Might we start there? Or am I not thinking liberally enough in this regard?
The problem with teaching people to drive "smarter" is that we haven't found the secret to keep them from crashing! This has been debated many times on Edmunds and other websites. It's not lack of skill that's the problem for the most part, it's risk-taking or other bad attitudes that cause most crashes. Also, most people believe themselves to be superior drivers; it's always the "other guy" who's the problem. But we can't all be above average drivers.
And even if we found a "magic bullet," how much do you suppose it would cost to re-train all 200 million drivers in this tax-averse country?
Maybe she should drive a "typical rental fodder" Impala next time. I'll ignore the Christine reference, but I would like to know exactly how the cruise control is acting "funny." Symptoms?