that's just ford being cautious with the labeling. you could pile half a dozen mats on top of each other and it wouldn't trap the gas pedal. all 5 of my fords have at least 3 1/2 inches of space below the bottom of the pedal. more than enough to roll a soda can under. to me, designing gas pedal that can't tolerate 2 mats stacked on top of each other is like designing an engine to run on 89 octane, but blows up if you put in 87. how does something like that get through the design and testing process?
2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
Because you cant take into account every possible dumb drivers` stupidity and ignorance
It is that attitude that has Toyota in the mess they are in. Unless you are saying that Toyota drivers as a group are more stupid and ignorant than the other car buyers. It is Toyota that leads the pack with more UA complaints than all others combined. So either there are more REAL UA incidents with Toyota vehicles, or it is what you are saying. That Toyota owners are not as bright as the rest of the pack. If the latter, I hope you did not include me in there. :shades:
Unless you are saying that Toyota drivers as a group are more stupid and ignorant than the other car buyers
The drivers involved in the accidents in question were I'm sure not more stupid and ignorant than drivers of other makes of cars. But I bet they were much older than the average driver.
Many jurisdictions have statutes requiring drivers above a certain age to have a road test before their licenses are renewed. Why is this? Because they know that as drivers get up there in age their abilities tend to decline. Not every driver is affected the same but older drivers in general are less competent than younger ones. By "older" I'm talking over 65.
And certain Toyota models, such as Camry and Avalon, attract older drivers.
I could agree if you had said over 75. Even then they are not near the top of the chart.
High risk of death
Less than one percent of people over 65 die as a result of motor vehicle accidents. On the other hand, car crashes are the major cause of death for the age group 15–20. Males in this group are twice as likely as females to die in a car crash.
The young and the lead-footed are truly scary. Their risk of crash per mile is 4 times higher than in older age groups. As the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety puts it, “teenage drivers represent a major hazard.” Although young drivers make up about 6 percent of the total licensed driving population, almost 13 percent (6982) of all drivers involved in fatal crashes in 2007 were young drivers 15 to 20 years old, according to this National Highway Traffic Safety Administration report. The chart below shows drivers' involvement rate in fatal accidents by age and gender per 100,000 licensed drivers.
Age and experience do matter
And while older drivers do have problems that can sometimes affect their ability to be the drivers they once were, studies show they also tend to be aware of their limitations and restrict their driving as their abilities diminish. As a result, car accidents involving drivers who are seniors are generally not serious. The spike in per mile fatality with older drivers is due to the fact that a driver over 65 is twice as likely to die from the same accident as a driver over 55, and a driver above 75 has four times the risk.
Not all studies agree with you about older drivers.
"The [Insurance] institute found that despite growing numbers of them on the road, fewer older drivers died in crashes and fewer were involved in fatal collisions during the period 1997-2008 than in years past."
I find it interesting how people will grab at any straw to protect Toyota. They are guilty as charged. This bit in your link tells a much different story than our friend from VA believes.
"We predicted we would see a significant increase in elderly driver fatal crash rates, but the elderly driving problem we anticipated has not materialized," he said. "Rather, their fatal crash involvement is dropping faster than rates of 35- to 54-year-olds."
The Mid life crisis group in their sports cars are a bigger threat than us old dudes.
I am a bit irritated at the over 70 crowd. Twice I rode the lift today with older skiers, both of whom bragged about skiing for free since they were over 70. :P
Some people as they get older do not drive as much and lose judgment and abilities to drive well. That is usually after 75 and older LOL. After 80 is when most areas retest seniors. So I have an other 18 years to go to enjoy myself. Maybe I should buy a Camry or Avalon so I can have an excuse when the wife tells me to slow down, Tell her the gas pedal is stuck which doesn't happen with my charger.
Are there any statistics for the accident rate for seniors per miles driven vs other age groups? I think that this would be more meaningful that looking at death rates for different age groups. I'm 59, and I know that my vision nor my reflexes are what they used to be.
Also, are there any statistics for the accident rate for different makes of cars? Just wondering if the accident rate is higher for Toyota than for other makes. Just makes sense that it would be higher with all the alleged incidents of SUA.
To err is human. But to deliberately put cost savings ahead of people's lives is truly appaling. And in the last page, what is meant by " Secured Tacoma, Scion xB, ....Top safety picks at IIHS ? "
Sounds like collution to me. And this could mean that all the favourable ratings in consumer mags, jd power etc may not even come close to reality. Just a result of influence peddling ?
I have 2 Toyotas including the Tundra [everyone has a truck in Texas,LOL!] and a Lexus GX ...And Toyota drivers are not stupid or ignorant...drivers of any make can be dumb or stupid. But got to be practical here?? 34 alleged SUA fatalities in 11 yrs...ALLEGED? Not proved..And Ms.Smith should try politics..She is a great drama fabricator..Her Lexus is now at 30k miles with no problem.
Ban alcohol-prevent 40000 deaths...Why dont folks go after alcohol?? This is just a conflict of interest from Govt Motors...But rest assured there is no chance of GM or Dodge to survive...A recall of this size for these 2 would have been the deathknell.. This is plain hysteria at Toyota.. But Toyota will be back a much much stronger entity.!! :P
You are going to have to keep up here. We are up to 56 deaths attributed to Toyota SUA. You like to throw out numbers with no evidence to back them up on DWI deaths. Yet you seem to despise anyone saying negative things about Toyota. Drunk drivers have been a problem since the invention of the Automobile. UA has only gotten widespread attention since Toyota started using DBW. To be honest I never heard about the Audi UA debacle until this issue got a lot of attention. Never considered buying an Audi till recently. I am not calling any drivers dumb, stupid or ignorant. That was your take on people that experience UA while driving a Toyota.
Nothing wrong with owning a truck or a big SUV. I have not been without one for most of my 50 years of driving.
Yes 56 , my mistake..Still it is 56 ALLEGED deaths..There is no evidence..No conclusive proof anywhere. If 56 are attributed, how can it be only 56 cases when millions of cars are produced..doesn`t add up. And CR is planning to reinstate the recommended ratings for all 8 previously suspended models this week !! :shades:
There is no evidence..No conclusive proof anywhere
You got those Toyota blinders on again. Plenty of proof positive. If you read back through 6349 posts you will find all the proof you are looking for. Not all are conclusive. Many are conclusive. Toyota must have upped the contribution to CR if they are giving a bunch of recalled vehicles a good rating. If Toyota were to spend the money they use to peddle influence on engineering they could have some decent vehicles for sale.
I would check the frame on that Tundra once a year for rust. I would get rid of it at the first sign of any. Hopefully there will still be someone who believes in "Toyota Quality" to buy it.
Well, if it makes you feel better, technically I was snowboarding. There are quite a few of us Grays on Trays out there. We're the ones driving real slow up to the hill but bombing down the runs.
"Data company Edmunds.com said yesterday U.S. regulators should expand their investigation of unintended vehicle acceleration beyond Toyota because the largest automakers all have reported similar episodes."
That it`s a Toyota is besides the point. If this SUA hysteria was for GM,Ford,honda,dodge.nissan or vw/bmw etc etc,my response would still be the same..My response is not at any specific brand..Any carmaker in this situation--that would be mass hysteria.. I just hope this witch hunt stops at some point and Congress does some useful things !:shades:
After all these news, I realise that media / mags / jd power ratings of cars are a joke. For one, how is it that toyota, with by now known to have many problems way back several years ago, always score top marks almost every year ?
After reading one of the last points as boasted by toyota inside their internal document, I am of the opinion that the media has been extra kind to toyota. Perhaps due to what they say " secured top safety picks for.....at IIHS ". The word secured speaks volumes.... What do you think they mean by " secured " ?
And this results in a virtuous circle. The media keeps posting top scores for them. Consumers believe them and increases toyota's sales. And all these makes many Americans believe that toyota is the best out there. You see many people own them, and you think they must be the best because everyones buying them.
If indeed toyota is really the best out there, think about this : in Europe, toyota does not even come close to being the volume leader. Many European brands and even several American brands have good market shares there.
For all these while the American media has always rated Europeans and American brands way below toyota. Does this mean that Europeans are as a whole dumb people who insist on buying European and American brands in large numbers, more so than toyota, because they love lower quality cars ? I don't think so. From what I know, Europeans are also well educated, well-off, well informed folks who also want the best bang for their bucks. Just that perhaps their media are not that easily " influenced " ?
Same for the Chinese car market. If one looks at the market shares there, toyota is also not the dominant one. In fact overthere, American and European brands have big market shares. Hyundai also did well there, bigger than toyota in fact. And the other Japanese brands like Nissan and Honda are also doing well.
These facts have convinced me that the gap between toyota and the other brands are not as big as the media made it out to be, otherwise after buying cars all these decades, if its true that toyota is so good, much better than the others, they will have been number one in Europe and China as well. But it isn't true.
Recent events have convinced me that toyota has done much more than their share of media influencing, cover-ups, and delaying bad news publicity etc..I did not say toyota is a poor quality car maker, just that their top quality reputation is way overblown, partly a result of toyotas lobbying all these years.
Ask the Europeans and Chinese what they thought of toyotas and I think they will tell you that its neither much better, nor much worse than other brands. They will gladly accept GM / Ford / Nissan / Hyundai / VW as readily as they accept toyota. But here in the US, many think toyota is god when it comes to quality.
My dad's has had 3 camrys with just wear and tear maintnence (a 85 with 370,000km's b4 it got written off, a 95 who's engine managed 500,000km's b4 dying and their 02 which is still running with 290,000km's) and this is why i think " toyota is god when it comes to quality."
Allthough my last 3 vehicles have not been Toyota's i can tell you my 01 Rio was no good and my 05 Impala had quite a few problems for the 30,000km's i owned it (bought it with 35,000km) and my current 09 Equinox has had a Radio receiver and Axel seal changed in its 1st 10,000km's. Maybe i am just unlucky in purchasing automobiles however due to quality issues with every vehicle i have ever owned i am gunna give Toyota a chance because they have been bulletproof for my father and i am getting sick of spending my weekends off work hanging out at the GM dealership waiting for my vehicles maintenence to be complete.......oh and did i mention my Onstar is not working at the minute...just another thing i will have to get fixed when i have the time
Now that makes a lot of sense. With your Dad having such great experience with Toyota yet you go out and buy junk and complain about it. Why didn't you just buy a Toyota. Might have been your last car eh?
My personal opinion is, good old toyotas are really good. But I think they got too aggressive, too eager to get big, and as too common nowadays with big corporations around the world, including the woes of Sony, quality slipped. Did you read the article about the period which toyota ceo katsuaki watanabe was in charge ? When I heard abt that guy (he is a non-toyoda by the way), I smell trouble.
Cause he is known to apply zealously the motto " To wring more water out from a dry towel ". Now I think efficiency / economies of scale should not be confused with overkill when it comes to squezzing your suppliers for further reductions in costs.
Not just the automotive industry, I am sure you have heard that other industries also have the same problems when companies get too bottom line oriented, suppliers get squezzed, and they " retaliated " with reduced quality (sorry, I got no choice, you forced me....)
So I am not surprised that your toyotas which prove reliable are built during the good old days, 85, 95, 02.
But to say that American, European brands are really bad, I kind of disagree. Think about this : If they are soo bad, why is it that they can sell million cars per year not just in the US but in other big markets around the world. Like China and Europe.
I went to Germany last year. Not surprisingly German brands are dominant there. Ford are also quite numerous there, But I think the Germans are not blindly Nationalistic. If German brands sucks, will they spend their hard earned money on them ? I don't think so. Just like in China, the domestic Chinese car makers are young players, with much less experience, hence their quality is not yet world class.
Thats why the top ranking brands in China are not the Chinese domestics. The big volume players there are VW, GM, Ford, Hyundai, Toyota, Nissan, Honda. The big boys. The Chinese, like the Germans, are in the end, like many of us, loyal to our wallet and quality. GM and Ford must have built good cars too to have such big volumes there.
Except if most guys are selling millions and a brand only does tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands a year (assuming non luxury brand), then that brand may have big problems to have such a small volume.
FYI, the worldwide yearly volume of each GM, Ford, VW, etc are pretty big. Not too far from toyota. If they are really lousy car makers, then the millions of people a year who buy from them are kind of dumb ? I don't think so.
No matter what, my own observation and experience showed that TODAY, the quality gap between the major automakers are smaller than ever. I don't believe anyone of these guys have a big quality superiority over the others.
Volkswagon almost never made it to the top in US media ratings, but again, if they are really that lousy, why is it that they can be the king in China ? The Germans by the way are not known for shoddy manufacturing, though they started 2 world wars, their efficiency and industrial prowess are still well known. Just that the media are somehow perhaps not "close" to them ?
1. VW GOLF 571,838 +23.9% 2. FORD FIESTA 472,091 +44.0% 3. PEUGEOT 207 367,160 -9.7% 4. OPEL/VAUXHALL CORSA 351,807 -2.5% 5. FIAT PUNTO 323,536 +15.9% 6. RENAULT CLIO 312,925 -6.8% 7. FORD FOCUS 309,134 -15.1% 8. FIAT PANDA 298,914 +33.8% 9. VW POLO 282,780 +2.4% 10. OPEL/VAUXHALL ASTRA 275,638 -14.1%
These are big volumes by the way. And not a single Japanese brand made it. Though some Nationalistic decision making could be at play (just like in Japan, all the best sellers are Japanese brands), I don't think Europeans like to buy junk. They will buy domestic European brands (and US brands too) if the quality is good.
So next time someone says toyota, or any other Japanese, are the quality gods, and the Americans / Europeans quality are laughable, think about these sales figures in Europe and China.
I think we got to be fair and rational when thinking about those media reports which I think are too Japanese oriented, especially toyota.
Well it doesn't help that the closest Toyota Dealership is 5 hours away but my 1st vehicle was bought because i couldn't afford anything else (a Kia), my Impala was a impulse buy because the Kia was 2 small for a growing family, and the Equinox was just a Cargo Space upgrade(plus the AWD +ground clearance for these badly Maintained Canadian winter roads). Most people just buy whatever is most convient at the time.....and i guess im just a prime example of that.
>Recent events have convinced me that toyota has done much more than their share of media influencing, cover-ups, and delaying bad news publicity etc
Totally agree. The internal document gave that away.
Let's see:
internal document suggests pushing influence for ratings
toyota displays history of influencing NHTSA about reporting runaways (the few that got put on paper--not including those that were "open-doored" by the service writer)
Lentz slips about cruise control problems (which may be related to electronics failures)
Steve....good for you. I used to ski quite a bit. But, several years ago, busted up my leg and foot (not skiing, but fell loading the skis into my car after being on the slopes. No more skiing.
-2,000+ customer complaints (most ignored) for everything from UA, to brake issues, to poorly engineered drive shafts (which broke), t0, power steering failures, to...... -Officials at NHTSA -a good portion of Congressional leaders on the Oversight committee -50+ deaths and rising -untold numbers of accident victims -Congressional witnesses are wrong (like the Smiths, the CHP officer and his family and Dr. Gilbert)
Now we've got roll over cover ups, which Congress stipulates as being the result of Toyota hiding documents (no big surprise there).
All the above are wrong in Toyota's eyes. And, Toyota is right (probably standing alone with Exponent). :confuse:
>And certain Toyota models, such as Camry and Avalon, attract older drivers.
Camry, Corolla, Avalon all have a greyhair buyer list in this region.
So if you buy into the concept that older drivers aren't as safe as younger drivers (not backed up by statistics), then it's tantamount to be concerned about the safety of the cars which toyota has been selling to their older buyer market.
Those buyers have believed they were buying an extremely reliable and extremely safe vehicle so they purchased without being aware of the problems going on under the radar due to toyota's interaction with NHTSA to quash data showing problems developing that affect the safety.
I think the insurance report touched on the reality of aging drivers. I know I do not take the chances at 66 years of age that I did at 18 years old. Thankfully my night vision is still good. Though the blue headlights are blinding to me. Only need cheapo reading glasses.
The most damning evidence against Toyota in my opinion is their poor diagnostics. If a person can have a runaway experience and the diagnostics do not show that he braked hard while the throttle was wide open, that is an important piece of information. What has taken Toyota so long to get up to speed on the EDR (black box)? As far as I know GM has had them in their vehicles at least a decade. In the very least the EDR should monitor the actual accelerator pedal position, engine RPM, vehicle speed, brake peddle position, Shift lever position. I find it very hard to accept that about 3000 people have experienced UA and they were holding down the accelerator while applying full force to the brakes. Just goes beyond logic.
Nice article and puts things in better perspective. Toyota has had 4.8 reported UA events per 100,000 cars and Ford has has 3.12 incidents per 100,000 cars. So Toyota has about 1 more incident than Ford per 100,000 cars. Probably statistically considered the same. I expect that any day the Japanese government will subpoena the president of Ford to appear before them for a good [non-permissible content removed] chewing.
Let's drag Ford before the US panel and rake them over the coals, THEY ARE KILLING PEOPLE !! Let's demand that brake overide fix on all their cars. Obviously they have defective electronics. I demand they shut down production immediately until we can get to the bottom of this. :mad:
All we need are a few class action attorneys and a couple of tearful victims and Ford is finished and so are all those UAW workers. Too bad but so be it. If you can't make a safe car you deserve to go out of business.
"You got those Toyota blinders on again. Plenty of proof positive. If you read back through 6349 posts you will find all the proof you are looking for. Not all are conclusive. Many are conclusive."
No blinders on here. You simply need to study up on the scientific method. It is used around the world to study many, many things. You will not find proof in posts on a disussion board, as much as you would like for it to be true.
You have a very, very low bar when it comes to evidence and things that are conclusive. Obsessive ranting and beating the hate-Toyota drum shows your true position on things. It's not a pretty picture and I understand that you don't like being called out on it. But there it is.
Anyone that tries to see things objectively, or even makes a comment you don't agree with, gets shouted down as being bought off by Toyota or stupid or being a Toyota lover.
.....it looks like those europeans really do enjoy smaller automobiles.
That's always been the case, although the difference in size compared to here has shrunk over the last few decades as the average American automobile has also got smaller.
Let's drag Ford before the panel and rake them over the coals,
Just give me a heads up before you do that. My Ford stock is up 604% since I bought it and would hate to lose that gain. I'm voting for the guys that keep slamming Toyota.
Back to reality. I think that comparison with Ford was for one select year by CR. A known cozy relationship for a long time. Even then Toyota has 35% more reports of UA than the next highest automaker. That being said, I would hope that Ford addresses UA with a brake override before they get in the same mess Toyota has gotten itself into.
The most damning evidence against Toyota in my opinion is their poor diagnostics. I think that Toyota has great diagnostics tools but hides some findings. I'm 100% confident that 99% of "issues" is due mass hysteria. I'm expecting to see more and more "run aways" when people going to intentionally hit cars and blame Toyota.
I don't think so. The CamCords sold today are gargantuan compared to 20 years ago. Same for the Civic and Corolla. There are some smaller cars like the Fit and Yaris. I would say they are bigger than my 1978 Accord. PU trucks are a LOT bigger than 30 years ago. At least half my neighbors own one or more 3/4ton or 1 ton PU trucks. My Ford Ranger is longer than my first 1956 Ford PU Truck. The tuna boats from GM are slightly smaller than they were in the 1960s.
Unfortunately we are not offered the high mileage small cars sold throughout the EU.
Comments
to me, designing gas pedal that can't tolerate 2 mats stacked on top of each other is like designing an engine to run on 89 octane, but blows up if you put in 87.
how does something like that get through the design and testing process?
It is that attitude that has Toyota in the mess they are in. Unless you are saying that Toyota drivers as a group are more stupid and ignorant than the other car buyers. It is Toyota that leads the pack with more UA complaints than all others combined. So either there are more REAL UA incidents with Toyota vehicles, or it is what you are saying. That Toyota owners are not as bright as the rest of the pack. If the latter, I hope you did not include me in there. :shades:
The drivers involved in the accidents in question were I'm sure not more stupid and ignorant than drivers of other makes of cars. But I bet they were much older than the average driver.
Many jurisdictions have statutes requiring drivers above a certain age to have a road test before their licenses are renewed. Why is this? Because they know that as drivers get up there in age their abilities tend to decline. Not every driver is affected the same but older drivers in general are less competent than younger ones. By "older" I'm talking over 65.
And certain Toyota models, such as Camry and Avalon, attract older drivers.
I could agree if you had said over 75. Even then they are not near the top of the chart.
High risk of death
Less than one percent of people over 65 die as a result of motor vehicle accidents. On the other hand, car crashes are the major cause of death for the age group 15–20. Males in this group are twice as likely as females to die in a car crash.
The young and the lead-footed are truly scary. Their risk of crash per mile is 4 times higher than in older age groups. As the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety puts it, “teenage drivers represent a major hazard.” Although young drivers make up about 6 percent of the total licensed driving population, almost 13 percent (6982) of all drivers involved in fatal crashes in 2007 were young drivers 15 to 20 years old, according to this National Highway Traffic Safety Administration report. The chart below shows drivers' involvement rate in fatal accidents by age and gender per 100,000 licensed drivers.
Age and experience do matter
And while older drivers do have problems that can sometimes affect their ability to be the drivers they once were, studies show they also tend to be aware of their limitations and restrict their driving as their abilities diminish. As a result, car accidents involving drivers who are seniors are generally not serious. The spike in per mile fatality with older drivers is due to the fact that a driver over 65 is twice as likely to die from the same accident as a driver over 55, and a driver above 75 has four times the risk.
http://www.insurance.com/auto-insurance/safety/teens-or-seniors-who-are-our-wors- t-drivers.aspx
I do agree that Camry and Avalon are old men cars.
"The [Insurance] institute found that despite growing numbers of them on the road, fewer older drivers died in crashes and fewer were involved in fatal collisions during the period 1997-2008 than in years past."
Should we be scared of senior drivers? (newstimes.com)
[edit] Lol, I think Gary and I are defending our "over 55" demographic a bit. :shades:
"We predicted we would see a significant increase in elderly driver fatal crash rates, but the elderly driving problem we anticipated has not materialized," he said. "Rather, their fatal crash involvement is dropping faster than rates of 35- to 54-year-olds."
The Mid life crisis group in their sports cars are a bigger threat than us old dudes.
old guys rule
Maybe I should buy a Camry or Avalon so I can have an excuse when the wife tells me to slow down, Tell her the gas pedal is stuck which doesn't happen with my charger.
Also, are there any statistics for the accident rate for different makes of cars? Just wondering if the accident rate is higher for Toyota than for other makes. Just makes sense that it would be higher with all the alleged incidents of SUA.
http://download.gannett.edgesuite.net/detnews/2010/pdf/0220toyota.pdf
To err is human. But to deliberately put cost savings ahead of people's lives is truly appaling. And in the last page, what is meant by " Secured Tacoma, Scion xB, ....Top safety picks at IIHS ? "
Sounds like collution to me. And this could mean that all the favourable ratings in consumer mags, jd power etc may not even come close to reality. Just a result of influence peddling ?
Ban alcohol-prevent 40000 deaths...Why dont folks go after alcohol?? This is just a conflict of interest from Govt Motors...But rest assured there is no chance of GM or Dodge to survive...A recall of this size for these 2 would have been the deathknell.. This is plain hysteria at Toyota.. But Toyota will be back a much much stronger entity.!! :P
Nothing wrong with owning a truck or a big SUV. I have not been without one for most of my 50 years of driving.
Guess it could be defined in several ways:
accidents per year for each manufacturer
accidents per year for each model
accidents per car sold per year by manufacturer or model
and so on.....
Just wondering if any statistics of this type are available?
You got those Toyota blinders on again. Plenty of proof positive. If you read back through 6349 posts you will find all the proof you are looking for. Not all are conclusive. Many are conclusive. Toyota must have upped the contribution to CR if they are giving a bunch of recalled vehicles a good rating. If Toyota were to spend the money they use to peddle influence on engineering they could have some decent vehicles for sale.
of it at the first sign of any. Hopefully there will still be someone who
believes in "Toyota Quality" to buy it.
Well, if it makes you feel better, technically I was snowboarding. There are quite a few of us Grays on Trays out there. We're the ones driving real slow up to the hill but bombing down the runs.
Here we go again:
Toyota Hearings: Toyota and Feds Gird for Second Week in Hot Seat (Inside Line)
Edmunds weighs in:
"Data company Edmunds.com said yesterday U.S. regulators should expand their investigation of unintended vehicle acceleration beyond Toyota because the largest automakers all have reported similar episodes."
Business Week
After reading one of the last points as boasted by toyota inside their internal document, I am of the opinion that the media has been extra kind to toyota. Perhaps due to what they say " secured top safety picks for.....at IIHS ". The word secured speaks volumes.... What do you think they mean by " secured " ?
And this results in a virtuous circle. The media keeps posting top scores for them. Consumers believe them and increases toyota's sales. And all these makes many Americans believe that toyota is the best out there. You see many people own them, and you think they must be the best because everyones buying them.
If indeed toyota is really the best out there, think about this : in Europe, toyota does not even come close to being the volume leader. Many European brands and even several American brands have good market shares there.
For all these while the American media has always rated Europeans and American brands way below toyota. Does this mean that Europeans are as a whole dumb people who insist on buying European and American brands in large numbers, more so than toyota, because they love lower quality cars ? I don't think so. From what I know, Europeans are also well educated, well-off, well informed folks who also want the best bang for their bucks. Just that perhaps their media are not that easily " influenced " ?
Same for the Chinese car market. If one looks at the market shares there, toyota is also not the dominant one. In fact overthere, American and European brands have big market shares. Hyundai also did well there, bigger than toyota in fact. And the other Japanese brands like Nissan and Honda are also doing well.
These facts have convinced me that the gap between toyota and the other brands are not as big as the media made it out to be, otherwise after buying cars all these decades, if its true that toyota is so good, much better than the others, they will have been number one in Europe and China as well. But it isn't true.
Recent events have convinced me that toyota has done much more than their share of media influencing, cover-ups, and delaying bad news publicity etc..I did not say toyota is a poor quality car maker, just that their top quality reputation is way overblown, partly a result of toyotas lobbying all these years.
Ask the Europeans and Chinese what they thought of toyotas and I think they will tell you that its neither much better, nor much worse than other brands. They will gladly accept GM / Ford / Nissan / Hyundai / VW as readily as they accept toyota. But here in the US, many think toyota is god when it comes to quality.
My dad's has had 3 camrys with just wear and tear maintnence (a 85 with 370,000km's b4 it got written off, a 95 who's engine managed 500,000km's b4 dying and their 02 which is still running with 290,000km's) and this is why i think " toyota is god when it comes to quality."
Allthough my last 3 vehicles have not been Toyota's i can tell you my 01 Rio was no good and my 05 Impala had quite a few problems for the 30,000km's i owned it (bought it with 35,000km) and my current 09 Equinox has had a Radio receiver and Axel seal changed in its 1st 10,000km's. Maybe i am just unlucky in purchasing automobiles however due to quality issues with every vehicle i have ever owned i am gunna give Toyota a chance because they have been bulletproof for my father and i am getting sick of spending my weekends off work hanging out at the GM dealership waiting for my vehicles maintenence to be complete.......oh and did i mention my Onstar is not working at the minute...just another thing i will have to get fixed when i have the time
Cause he is known to apply zealously the motto " To wring more water out from a dry towel ". Now I think efficiency / economies of scale should not be confused with overkill when it comes to squezzing your suppliers for further reductions in costs.
Not just the automotive industry, I am sure you have heard that other industries also have the same problems when companies get too bottom line oriented, suppliers get squezzed, and they " retaliated " with reduced quality (sorry, I got no choice, you forced me....)
So I am not surprised that your toyotas which prove reliable are built during the good old days, 85, 95, 02.
But to say that American, European brands are really bad, I kind of disagree. Think about this : If they are soo bad, why is it that they can sell million cars per year not just in the US but in other big markets around the world. Like China and Europe.
I went to Germany last year. Not surprisingly German brands are dominant there. Ford are also quite numerous there, But I think the Germans are not blindly Nationalistic. If German brands sucks, will they spend their hard earned money on them ? I don't think so. Just like in China, the domestic Chinese car makers are young players, with much less experience, hence their quality is not yet world class.
Thats why the top ranking brands in China are not the Chinese domestics. The big volume players there are VW, GM, Ford, Hyundai, Toyota, Nissan, Honda. The big boys. The Chinese, like the Germans, are in the end, like many of us, loyal to our wallet and quality. GM and Ford must have built good cars too to have such big volumes there.
Except if most guys are selling millions and a brand only does tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands a year (assuming non luxury brand), then that brand may have big problems to have such a small volume.
FYI, the worldwide yearly volume of each GM, Ford, VW, etc are pretty big. Not too far from toyota. If they are really lousy car makers, then the millions of people a year who buy from them are kind of dumb ? I don't think so.
No matter what, my own observation and experience showed that TODAY, the quality gap between the major automakers are smaller than ever. I don't believe anyone of these guys have a big quality superiority over the others.
http://www.autolinedetroit.tv/daily/?p=4593
Brand Sales Market Share
1. Volkswagen 410,923 13.7%
2. Hyundai 234,258 7.8%
3. Honda 202,393 6.7%
4. Toyota 198,857 6.6%
5. Nissan 183,567 6.1%
6. Chery 164,162 5.5%
7. Buick 157,387 5.2%
8. BYD 139,249 4.6%
9. Suzuki 99,832 3.3%
10. Geely 96,897 3.2%
11. Chevrolet 94,684 3.2%
12. Ford 82,965 2.8%
13. Kia 73,807 2.5%
14. Xiali 65,454 2.2%
15. Mazda 64,061 2.1%
16. Audi 55,466 1.8%
17 Citroen 52,999 1.8%
18. FAW 50,328 1.7%
19. Great Wall 48,020 1.6%
20. JAC 44,658 1.5%
Volkswagon almost never made it to the top in US media ratings, but again, if they are really that lousy, why is it that they can be the king in China ? The Germans by the way are not known for shoddy manufacturing, though they started 2 world wars, their efficiency and industrial prowess are still well known. Just that the media are somehow perhaps not "close" to them ?
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/europe-top-ten/
1. VW GOLF 571,838 +23.9%
2. FORD FIESTA 472,091 +44.0%
3. PEUGEOT 207 367,160 -9.7%
4. OPEL/VAUXHALL CORSA 351,807 -2.5%
5. FIAT PUNTO 323,536 +15.9%
6. RENAULT CLIO 312,925 -6.8%
7. FORD FOCUS 309,134 -15.1%
8. FIAT PANDA 298,914 +33.8%
9. VW POLO 282,780 +2.4%
10. OPEL/VAUXHALL ASTRA 275,638 -14.1%
These are big volumes by the way. And not a single Japanese brand made it. Though some Nationalistic decision making could be at play (just like in Japan, all the best sellers are Japanese brands), I don't think Europeans like to buy junk. They will buy domestic European brands (and US brands too) if the quality is good.
So next time someone says toyota, or any other Japanese, are the quality gods, and the Americans / Europeans quality are laughable, think about these sales figures in Europe and China.
I think we got to be fair and rational when thinking about those media reports which I think are too Japanese oriented, especially toyota.
Totally agree. The internal document gave that away.
Let's see:
internal document suggests pushing influence for ratings
toyota displays history of influencing NHTSA about reporting runaways (the few that got put on paper--not including those that were "open-doored" by the service writer)
Lentz slips about cruise control problems (which may be related to electronics failures)
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Guess this won't help either: Losing traction from LA Times
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
-2,000+ customer complaints (most ignored) for everything from UA, to brake issues, to poorly engineered drive shafts (which broke), t0, power steering failures, to......
-Officials at NHTSA
-a good portion of Congressional leaders on the Oversight committee
-50+ deaths and rising
-untold numbers of accident victims
-Congressional witnesses are wrong (like the Smiths, the CHP officer and his family and Dr. Gilbert)
Now we've got roll over cover ups, which Congress stipulates as being the result of Toyota hiding documents (no big surprise there).
All the above are wrong in Toyota's eyes. And, Toyota is right (probably standing alone with Exponent). :confuse:
Camry, Corolla, Avalon all have a greyhair buyer list in this region.
So if you buy into the concept that older drivers aren't as safe as younger drivers (not backed up by statistics),
then it's tantamount to be concerned about the safety of the cars which toyota has been selling to their older buyer market.
Those buyers have believed they were buying an extremely reliable and extremely safe vehicle so they purchased without being aware of the problems going on under the radar due to toyota's interaction with NHTSA to quash data showing problems developing that affect the safety.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
The most damning evidence against Toyota in my opinion is their poor diagnostics. If a person can have a runaway experience and the diagnostics do not show that he braked hard while the throttle was wide open, that is an important piece of information. What has taken Toyota so long to get up to speed on the EDR (black box)? As far as I know GM has had them in their vehicles at least a decade. In the very least the EDR should monitor the actual accelerator pedal position, engine RPM, vehicle speed, brake peddle position, Shift lever position. I find it very hard to accept that about 3000 people have experienced UA and they were holding down the accelerator while applying full force to the brakes. Just goes beyond logic.
Let's drag Ford before the US panel and rake them over the coals, THEY ARE KILLING PEOPLE !! Let's demand that brake overide fix on all their cars. Obviously they have defective electronics. I demand they shut down production immediately until we can get to the bottom of this. :mad:
All we need are a few class action attorneys and a couple of tearful victims and Ford is finished and so are all those UAW workers. Too bad but so be it. If you can't make a safe car you deserve to go out of business.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
No blinders on here. You simply need to study up on the scientific method. It is used around the world to study many, many things. You will not find proof in posts on a disussion board, as much as you would like for it to be true.
You have a very, very low bar when it comes to evidence and things that are conclusive. Obsessive ranting and beating the hate-Toyota drum shows your true position on things. It's not a pretty picture and I understand that you don't like being called out on it. But there it is.
Anyone that tries to see things objectively, or even makes a comment you don't agree with, gets shouted down as being bought off by Toyota or stupid or being a Toyota lover.
John
That's always been the case, although the difference in size compared to here has shrunk over the last few decades as the average American automobile has also got smaller.
Just give me a heads up before you do that. My Ford stock is up 604% since I bought it and would hate to lose that gain. I'm voting for the guys that keep slamming Toyota.
Back to reality. I think that comparison with Ford was for one select year by CR. A known cozy relationship for a long time. Even then Toyota has 35% more reports of UA than the next highest automaker. That being said, I would hope that Ford addresses UA with a brake override before they get in the same mess Toyota has gotten itself into.
I think that Toyota has great diagnostics tools but hides some findings. I'm 100% confident that 99% of "issues" is due mass hysteria. I'm expecting to see more and more "run aways" when people going to intentionally hit cars and blame Toyota.
I don't think so. The CamCords sold today are gargantuan compared to 20 years ago. Same for the Civic and Corolla. There are some smaller cars like the Fit and Yaris. I would say they are bigger than my 1978 Accord. PU trucks are a LOT bigger than 30 years ago. At least half my neighbors own one or more 3/4ton or 1 ton PU trucks. My Ford Ranger is longer than my first 1956 Ford PU Truck. The tuna boats from GM are slightly smaller than they were in the 1960s.
Unfortunately we are not offered the high mileage small cars sold throughout the EU.