primary belt use laws don't mean police have to wait in hiding to stop people not wearing belts. Compliance goes up just with the fact of having such a law and widely publicizing it.
You mean like it is supposed to work for NO Cell phone usage laws. We could argue all day about how many lives could be saved with every new law. That is not the issue on this thread. It is Toyota trying to get back a reputation they blatantly tossed away by hiding information concerning problems with their DBW systems. It is about Toyota telling customers their cars were functioning normal when they in fact were not.
We don't know if they "blatantly tossed away information." That's an accusation, not an established fact. As for dealers telling customers their car is normal, what do you expect if they are unable to duplicate the condition, which even if real, happens extremely rarely?
Regarding cellphone prohibitions, these are much tougher to enforce than seat belt use. We haven't even been able to determine if cellphone use bans have made any difference in crash rates; we have though for injury and fatality rates from seat belt use laws.
34 people are alleged to have died from Toyota sudden acceleration since 1999 or 2000
According to the LA Times that number is now 56. Truth is we do not know how many of the 37,000 per year were caused by faulty vehicles including Toyota. We know now from Toyota documents that the problem goes back into the 1990s and their Cruise Control causing UA.
We have our priorities upside down.
You would like to blame UA on driver error. Yet you want to protect those that die from driver error. Personally I think in the drive to make cars safer we have added features that can and do turn on us. So of those 37K that die each year. How many were researched by the NHTSA? How many accidents where someone was going too fast and hit a tree were just blamed on driver error? Without ever researching the vehicle and its ability to scream out of control.
So I agree the priorities have been upside down. We have automatically blamed the driver without ever doing due diligent research on the vehicles. About time we listened to the customer instead of the fat cat automakers.
Also, it was NHTSA, not Toyota, that has bought the Lexus ES 350 formerly owned by Rhonda Smith (which as I stated before had been owned by another family after Smith for 27K trouble-free miles).
Do you have any idea what all Lexus replaced in the Smith vehicle before it was resold? The NHTSA wasting money on that car is typical US Government stupidity. The Fox has already eaten all the chickens. What a bunch of losers we are supporting in DC.
I agree the risk is small that you will have runaway acceleration in a ToyLex. It is smaller in a Ford or GM and smaller yet in a German built car. So if you are playing the odds on whether your car will have a case of UA, you are safer in a VW than a Toyota.
Wrong again. We simply don't know all the facts behind most of the alleged cases.
Personally I think in the drive to make cars safer we have added features that can and do turn on us.
So you believe in the HAL theory? Driving has never been safer in the US, based on both a per mile and per registered vehicle basis. It's not just the cars that have become safer, but road design, and better laws and enforcement against drunk driving and the like. But too many people in absolute numbers still die.
So of those 37K that die each year. How many were researched by the NHTSA? How many accidents where someone was going to fast and hit a tree were just blamed on driver error? Without ever researching the vehicle and its ability to scream out of control.
I agree with you here. We need better investigation of serious and fatal car crashes. The local PDs can't do an adequate job; many reports are error-riddled and the cops' mindset is to find out who was in violation of applicable traffic laws. In fact, our whole legal and insurance system revolves around who was "at fault."
But as a self-professed anti-government type, how do you propose we raise the level of funding to do more thorough investigations of car crashes?
>Do you have any idea what all Lexus replaced in the Smith vehicle before it was resold?
That would be in the warranty repair record. That's available from, Toyota, of course, just like reading the electronic data recorder.
And the warranty wouldn't really show what was in a reflash to the computer. That's kind of a blind mice game at this point.
I think toyota should use that car as a commercial. "Here's the toyota that nearly killed Mrs. Smith, but, as you can see, it's been driven 27000 miles by the next lucky owner and is continuing our caring about safety of our customers." :P
Do you have any idea what all Lexus replaced in the Smith vehicle before it was resold?
Maybe nothing. From her account, she didn't crash. We don't even know if Mrs. Smith informed the selling dealer (which was a Toyota dealer, so it couldn't have been the same Lexus dealer she bought the car from.) But of course all of you conspiracy theorists will surmise that Toyota replaced the entire throttle assembly, including the gas pedal, plus reflashed the computer. And threw out the all-weather floor mats.
delray....Oh, I think more funding is coming for NHTSA just based on the committments made at the Congressional hearings. Now, where that funding is coming from, I'd truly like to know that myself.
But, based on what I heard, all LaHood has to do is ask for it. I've never known any politician that would turn down an offer like that. I've never heard even one politician say..."nah, I don't want any more money."
Not anti government. Smaller government. It would be nice to know the tax dollars we give to keep our cars safe was being spent on doing that. I think they have been better at mandating without looking at the negatives associated with the positives.
As XLU pointed out so well. Analog controls are not as prone to problems as the current batch of DBW. Anyone tell me they get better throttle control with a DBW than the old control I say are not being honest.
It's not just the cars that have become safer, but road design, and better laws and enforcement against drunk driving and the like.
Road design certainly, but better enforcement against drunk driving? The only enforcement I see is after an offence has already occured, usually an an accident. When the police are able to require drivers to submit to testing as they leave the bar parking lot is when I'll agree on that one!
maybe I haven't read enough about all this stuff, but I thought in the beginning some, not all, of a few of these incidence it was found that some owners were doubling up on floor mats?
I could of swear I remember seeing on the news and on Toyota's website warning people NOT to double up on floor mats?
if someone could enlighten me, I'd greatly appreciate it!
hoya....I think their market share dropped just a little above where I thought Toyota would be, but the recalls aren't done IMHO. So, that could affect it.
I'm thinking somewhere in the -30% range for unit sales for Toy/Lex. They're at -27% right now.
However, they're also piling on the incentives currently, too. Make no mistake. The public will always respond to "cheap" vehicle more than they will to getting a safe vehicle.
Last I heard, Toy/Lex had a 100+ day supply of new cars on the ground. That's a huge amount of inventory. They're cutting way back on production (by initiating plant shutdown days) to halt some of the production and tighten supply. I doubt that will put much of a dent in their inventory, at least not until calendar year end.
Projections until tomorrow when the official numbers come out looks like Toyota slipped to 4th place behind Honda. Ford had the biggest gains with 35% over a year ago. Toyota was the only loser at -27% from last February. Which by the way was the worst auto sales month since 1981.
...but I thought in the beginning some, not all, of a few of these incidence it was found that some owners were doubling up on floor mats?
Yes, this is true -- rubber all-weather mats were placed on top of the carpeted mats. The rubber mats could not be secured by the retention hooks with the carpeted mats underneath. The Saylor loaner car (in which 4 people died) had this problem, where an incorrect all-weather mat (from a different model Lexus) were put on top of the carpeted mats.
A prior user of the car also experience sudden acceleration, but was able to stop the car and yank away the offending mat. He complained to the dealership, with no action taken.
According to the jeffb1124 citing Business Week, the Smith car also had rubber mats on top of the carpeted mats.
And Toyota did warn against this practice.
Small aside: my employer took delivery of a new Ford Edge the other day. It came with standard carpeted mats with retention hooks in the driver footwell, Yet someone placed rubber mats on top of all the front and rear carpeted mats. The driver's rubber mat has molded right into it, "Do not place on top of other mats." :sick:
Good article, thanks for posting. Nothing like reporting the facts! It may sound pro Toyota but all we have read and seen is the misinformation and bias opinions especially in this forum.
The driver's rubber mat has molded right into it, "Do not place on top of other mats."
Was the gas peddle poorly designed as is the ToyLex models? You could stack 5 rubber floor mats in my 2007 Sequoia and not interfere with the gas peddle. I used to use carpet samples in my Suburban and GM PU trucks to protect the original carpet. Never had a problem. More excuses for a poorly designed gas peddle.
I am not making excuses for the idiots at the Ford agency that may have endangered the customer by not following instructions. I will go look at a Ford Edge for myself. Something as common as using an aftermarket cheapo rubber floor mat from WalMart should not be potentially dangerous to the customer.
How is "More than likely" a fact? What did the NHTSA and arbitration board actually say?
The Smiths dismissed the dealer's findings, the NHTSA's, and an arbitration board's by saying that they had been "called liars." More than likely the investigators simply said that there was no evidence they could find to explain the situation as she described it.
This statement is flat out Wrong. We know you can burn up the disk brakes on an ES350 and not stop the car.
Just as anyone who has ever tested cars knows that full pressure to the brakes will always override engine speed.
I do agree with the following statement. I have to assume that Toyota did not want the truth to come out so did not insist on any professional testimony on their behalf.
Herein lies the problem with congressional hearings on issues like this. The individuals who should have testified following Eddie and Rhonda Smith could have been the NHTSA expert who flew to Tennessee, inspected her vehicle, and concluded that it was likely the double layer of floor mats. Or the certified mechanic at her Lexus dealership likewise could have told Congress how he could find no evidence of mechanical failure with her car. Who knows, their testimony might have validated her claims, had it been proved that they did little or nothing to truly try to uncover what happened that day. Conversely, things could have gone the other way. But we all would have had a better, more balanced understanding of her case as stated.
Regardless of where the gas pedal is located in relation to the floor (and I'd have to go back and find that Edge), loose mats should never be placed on top of factory-secured mats. I don't care what you or I may have done in the past, it's clear from this Toyota problem that unsecured mats have no place in the driver's footwell.
We know that prior to the mid-late 90s that floor mats did not have any retention hooks. We also had carburetors at one time and even hand cranks to start the engine! Time moves on.
Back to gas pedal heights, I noticed that the prior-generation Hyundai Sonata (2006-10) had its gas pedal about as close to the floor as the 2007-10 Toyota Camry, so it's not gas pedal location in and of itself that causes the problems.
What was clear from the photos supplied by Edmunds and reposted in these forums is that the original-design all-weather mat for the Lexus ES had a groove that could catch on the lower end of the accelerator pedal if the mat was not secure.
Come to think of it, if I were Supreme Auto Czar, I'd outlaw mats altogether and decree that all flooring material in cars and trucks be easily cleanable insulated textured rubber or plastic. It really makes no sense to have carpeting in vehicles where it's unavoidable to track in dirt, mud, salt, and slush. And even sillier to have mats to protect mats.
Japanese sales of new cars and trucks continue their solid comeback in February. Japan has filed away carmageddon. Japan is utterly unimpressed by the Toyota troubles. Japan has not been spared Toyota recalls. The hearings and public apologies have received wide coverage in Japan. And what is the Japanese reaction? A plus 47.9 percent vote of confidence.
We know you can burn up the disk brakes on an ES350 and not stop the car.
In the Saylor case, yes. BUT the evidence suggests he didn't stomp hard enough on the brakes and keep his foot firmly planted on the pedal. If you brake and release repeatedly without applying full pressure, the rotors will overheat and the pads will start to disintegrate over a long enough period. He did travel several miles, right?
Plus we don't know how worn the brakes were from the earlier incident that occurred a few days earlier. And who knows, maybe there were others using that loaner car that also had problems but didn't report them? No one has stated how long that incorrect all-weather mat was in the car on top of the regular mat.
Herein lies the problem with congressional hearings on issues like this. The individuals who should have testified following Eddie and Rhonda Smith could have been the NHTSA expert who flew to Tennessee, inspected her vehicle, and concluded that it was likely the double layer of floor mats. Or the certified mechanic at her Lexus dealership likewise could have told Congress how he could find no evidence of mechanical failure with her car.
I agree. Congress decides to invite who will testify. For maximum impact, a chance to pontificate, and pure sensationalism, have the poor lady testify first. But don't invite the Toyota techs or the NHTSA investigator, who might have different tales to tell.
Then back her up with the "Kane and Gilbert Show." Next grill the Toyota execs. Make a big hue and cry beforehand about the righteousness of having the head honcho, Akio Toyoda, appear and apologize before the inquisition hearing.
When he does agree to testify, as well as his head people in the US, make a big stink afterward about not having the "engineers on the ground" testify. As if Congress intended to invite them in the first place to hear boring "engineer-speak." There wouldn't have been suitable sound bites for the breathless media broadcasts.
My parents had a Granade when I was growing up, bright (well sorta faded actually) yellow, i think it had a V8 as well. Vinyl interior, might even have been red? I think it was actually a pretty reliable car for them.
gagrice....witnesses stated that there was smoke and flames coming for the Smith's Lexus. That means Ms. Smith was hard on the brakes, for a long period of time to cause the kind of heat brakes would generate to catch on fire.
The statement that Congress only wanted to hear from Dr Gilbert (and all of his technical engineering speak) and not any of Toyota's engineers to explain their alleged exhaustive research borders on silly. Particularly true if Toyota would have said that their engineers could clear everything up.
No, Toyota didn't want them to testify. They didn't offer to have them testify. And, didn't even want to submit their names to Congress to be invited to testify.
In short, they didn't want their engineers to have to rebut Dr Gilbert's expert testimony because they couldn't. They must have known this because Cr Gilbert submitted his findings to Toyota well before he testified in front of Congress. Toyota summarily dismissed his findings. Bad move on their part as I'm sure they didn't know at the time he would give it again, under oath, in front of Congress.
I agree completely. Congress may be lame. But if Toyoda and Lentz had insisted on having their own expert witnesses, the Congressional committee would have been hard pressed to deny it. Anyone thinking otherwise are blind to the Toyota game plan, of duck and deceive.
2010 Scion xB and 2010 Toyota Corolla earn IIHS Top Safety Pick award! I would assume this means the IIHS doesn't put much credibility on lurking e-gremlins that haven't been identified. More here.
"And, didn't even want to submit their names to Congress to be invited to testify."
Congress invites who they want and when they want. Doesn't anybody follow Congress closely? I grew up in D.C. Remember the McCarthy hearings? How about the scene from The Godfather? Hey, as long as we're talking fiction I thought I throw in some of my own to go along with some of what I've been reading here.
The only folks who profit from Congressional hearings are the members who get free air time to run for re-election.
That story in BW is as close to fair and unbiased as a story can get. But I suppose some of you think they are on Toyota's payroll !
Toyota will never call some of these claimants/witnesses outright liars, but I certainly don't mind doing it for them. I believe Toyota is terrified of the jacked up US tort system and will just go along to get along here.
In a few years everyone will agree, in our perfect hindsight, that Toyota was railroaded just like Audi was and was shamelessly exploited by a bunch of hysterical kooks, liars, and shyster lawyers.
Sorry....I still don't buy it. If Toyota would have offered up even one engineer to testify and dismiss Dr Gilbert's findings, or explained the alleged exhaustive research Toyota did, there's absolutely no reason Congress wouldn't have invited that person to do so. Matter of fact, I think they would have welcomed them.
No...what happened here was Toyota didn't tell Congress of anyone who could have testified on their behalf, didn't want anyone of their engineers to be questioned by Congress, nor wanted no one under oath who could technically explained what they did indeed know.
Originally, Mr Toyoda didn't even want to be questioned.
The only way Congress is going to be able to question Toyota engineers who are familiar with what happened is for Congress to subpoena them.....something that NHTSA could very well compel Congress to do as they dig further into this mess.
NHTSA as part of the executive branch can only request Congress to use the subpoena power.
But NHTSA itself has subpoena power, and it would make more sense for the agency to carry on the investigation as DOT Secretary LaHood has given them a clear mandate to do so.
delray....that being the case, I'm certain LaHood is subpoenaing Toyota engineers. One way or the other, Toyota engineers will have testimony on record....be it good, or be it bad.
Count me in as an anti-government type. Government fails abysmally at regulating and protecting us from consumer products problems. It doesn't matter what area it is - transportation, food safety, air travel, safe roads, etc. It always amazes me that the greater the failure, the more people want to give the agency involved even more control and more funding. If a restaurant kept giving you rotten food, you wouldn't dream of giving them any more money.
The best protection for consumers is what we are doing here and what happens in the market place - the free flow of information and freedom of choice. As we can see with Toyota, government failied miserably in preventing these problems, so now the lawyers will proceed with the "punishment" and consumers will stop buying their products until they are convinced that Toyota has changed its ways. That is the best form of consumer protection.
Anybody else want to comment on xlu's explanation? (post #6260)
I'll take a shot at the conclusion if you like:
"Camry unintended acceleration is due to the CPU mis-interpret the driver pedal action in the wrong direction. Prius brake hesitation is due to the CPU not checking the brake encoder (sensor) fast enough. Corolla steering problem is due to not enough fine step in the steering encoder (sensor). "
This should maybe be re-written as:
Camry unintended acceleration is possibly due to the CPU mis-interpret the driver pedal action in the wrong direction.
Prius brake hesitation is possibly due to the CPU not checking the brake encoder (sensor) fast enough.
Corolla steering problem is possibly due to not enough fine step in the steering encoder (sensor).
Too many people are taking an absolute view one way or the other. It's either that Toyota designed their cars to randomly kill their customers, and the whole thing was a devious plan from the outset, or Toyota is the best thing since sliced bread and the customers who died or were injured should have learned to drive properly and just slipped it into neutral, turned off the ignition, applied the brakes and everything would have turned out just fine.
That there is a mechanical issue (mats, faulty pedal) is established. That there is a software/firmware issue has yet to be proven, but to deny even the possibility seems short sighted at best.
Not bad, mac. One thing you left out, brake over ride installed in Toyota's vehicles affected with UA would most probably have prevented accidents and even deaths, regardless of the causes, known, unknown and possibly ignored and dismissed.
Comments
You mean like it is supposed to work for NO Cell phone usage laws. We could argue all day about how many lives could be saved with every new law. That is not the issue on this thread. It is Toyota trying to get back a reputation they blatantly tossed away by hiding information concerning problems with their DBW systems. It is about Toyota telling customers their cars were functioning normal when they in fact were not.
Regarding cellphone prohibitions, these are much tougher to enforce than seat belt use. We haven't even been able to determine if cellphone use bans have made any difference in crash rates; we have though for injury and fatality rates from seat belt use laws.
According to the LA Times that number is now 56. Truth is we do not know how many of the 37,000 per year were caused by faulty vehicles including Toyota. We know now from Toyota documents that the problem goes back into the 1990s and their Cruise Control causing UA.
We have our priorities upside down.
You would like to blame UA on driver error. Yet you want to protect those that die from driver error. Personally I think in the drive to make cars safer we have added features that can and do turn on us. So of those 37K that die each year. How many were researched by the NHTSA? How many accidents where someone was going too fast and hit a tree were just blamed on driver error? Without ever researching the vehicle and its ability to scream out of control.
So I agree the priorities have been upside down. We have automatically blamed the driver without ever doing due diligent research on the vehicles. About time we listened to the customer instead of the fat cat automakers.
Also, it was NHTSA, not Toyota, that has bought the Lexus ES 350 formerly owned by Rhonda Smith (which as I stated before had been owned by another family after Smith for 27K trouble-free miles).
I agree the risk is small that you will have runaway acceleration in a ToyLex. It is smaller in a Ford or GM and smaller yet in a German built car. So if you are playing the odds on whether your car will have a case of UA, you are safer in a VW than a Toyota.
Wrong again. We simply don't know all the facts behind most of the alleged cases.
Personally I think in the drive to make cars safer we have added features that can and do turn on us.
So you believe in the HAL theory? Driving has never been safer in the US, based on both a per mile and per registered vehicle basis. It's not just the cars that have become safer, but road design, and better laws and enforcement against drunk driving and the like. But too many people in absolute numbers still die.
So of those 37K that die each year. How many were researched by the NHTSA? How many accidents where someone was going to fast and hit a tree were just blamed on driver error? Without ever researching the vehicle and its ability to scream out of control.
I agree with you here. We need better investigation of serious and fatal car crashes. The local PDs can't do an adequate job; many reports are error-riddled and the cops' mindset is to find out who was in violation of applicable traffic laws. In fact, our whole legal and insurance system revolves around who was "at fault."
But as a self-professed anti-government type, how do you propose we raise the level of funding to do more thorough investigations of car crashes?
That would be in the warranty repair record. That's available from, Toyota, of course, just like reading the electronic data recorder.
And the warranty wouldn't really show what was in a reflash to the computer. That's kind of a blind mice game at this point.
I think toyota should use that car as a commercial. "Here's the toyota that nearly killed Mrs. Smith, but, as you can see, it's been driven 27000 miles by the next lucky owner and is continuing our caring about safety of our customers."
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Maybe nothing. From her account, she didn't crash. We don't even know if Mrs. Smith informed the selling dealer (which was a Toyota dealer, so it couldn't have been the same Lexus dealer she bought the car from.) But of course all of you conspiracy theorists will surmise that Toyota replaced the entire throttle assembly, including the gas pedal, plus reflashed the computer. And threw out the all-weather floor mats.
But, based on what I heard, all LaHood has to do is ask for it. I've never known any politician that would turn down an offer like that. I've never heard even one politician say..."nah, I don't want any more money."
Of course not.
There were no all-weather floor mats.
I sense paranoia.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Not anti government. Smaller government. It would be nice to know the tax dollars we give to keep our cars safe was being spent on doing that. I think they have been better at mandating without looking at the negatives associated with the positives.
As XLU pointed out so well. Analog controls are not as prone to problems as the current batch of DBW. Anyone tell me they get better throttle control with a DBW than the old control I say are not being honest.
Road design certainly, but better enforcement against drunk driving?
The only enforcement I see is after an offence has already occured, usually an an accident.
When the police are able to require drivers to submit to testing as they leave the bar parking lot is when I'll agree on that one!
How do you know that? I may have forgotten that detail in her testimony.
And what paranoia are you talking about?
I could of swear I remember seeing on the news and on Toyota's website warning people NOT to double up on floor mats?
if someone could enlighten me, I'd greatly appreciate it!
I personally think the number will be closer to 50%.
Anybody else care to predict?
http://www.marketwire.com/press-release/TrueCar-Forecasts-February-Auto-Sales-11- - - 21512.htm
http://www.businessweek.com/lifestyle/content/feb2010/bw20100225_403524.htm
I think the article is fair, some will say it's too pro Toyota but everyone has a right to make up their own mind.
I'm thinking somewhere in the -30% range for unit sales for Toy/Lex. They're at -27% right now.
However, they're also piling on the incentives currently, too. Make no mistake. The public will always respond to "cheap" vehicle more than they will to getting a safe vehicle.
Last I heard, Toy/Lex had a 100+ day supply of new cars on the ground. That's a huge amount of inventory. They're cutting way back on production (by initiating plant shutdown days) to halt some of the production and tighten supply. I doubt that will put much of a dent in their inventory, at least not until calendar year end.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
Feb sales projections
Yes, this is true -- rubber all-weather mats were placed on top of the carpeted mats. The rubber mats could not be secured by the retention hooks with the carpeted mats underneath. The Saylor loaner car (in which 4 people died) had this problem, where an incorrect all-weather mat (from a different model Lexus) were put on top of the carpeted mats.
A prior user of the car also experience sudden acceleration, but was able to stop the car and yank away the offending mat. He complained to the dealership, with no action taken.
According to the jeffb1124 citing Business Week, the Smith car also had rubber mats on top of the carpeted mats.
And Toyota did warn against this practice.
Small aside: my employer took delivery of a new Ford Edge the other day. It came with standard carpeted mats with retention hooks in the driver footwell, Yet someone placed rubber mats on top of all the front and rear carpeted mats. The driver's rubber mat has molded right into it, "Do not place on top of other mats." :sick:
Was the gas peddle poorly designed as is the ToyLex models? You could stack 5 rubber floor mats in my 2007 Sequoia and not interfere with the gas peddle. I used to use carpet samples in my Suburban and GM PU trucks to protect the original carpet. Never had a problem. More excuses for a poorly designed gas peddle.
I am not making excuses for the idiots at the Ford agency that may have endangered the customer by not following instructions. I will go look at a Ford Edge for myself. Something as common as using an aftermarket cheapo rubber floor mat from WalMart should not be potentially dangerous to the customer.
How is "More than likely" a fact? What did the NHTSA and arbitration board actually say?
The Smiths dismissed the dealer's findings, the NHTSA's, and an arbitration board's by saying that they had been "called liars." More than likely the investigators simply said that there was no evidence they could find to explain the situation as she described it.
This statement is flat out Wrong. We know you can burn up the disk brakes on an ES350 and not stop the car.
Just as anyone who has ever tested cars knows that full pressure to the brakes will always override engine speed.
I do agree with the following statement. I have to assume that Toyota did not want the truth to come out so did not insist on any professional testimony on their behalf.
Herein lies the problem with congressional hearings on issues like this. The individuals who should have testified following Eddie and Rhonda Smith could have been the NHTSA expert who flew to Tennessee, inspected her vehicle, and concluded that it was likely the double layer of floor mats. Or the certified mechanic at her Lexus dealership likewise could have told Congress how he could find no evidence of mechanical failure with her car. Who knows, their testimony might have validated her claims, had it been proved that they did little or nothing to truly try to uncover what happened that day. Conversely, things could have gone the other way. But we all would have had a better, more balanced understanding of her case as stated.
We know that prior to the mid-late 90s that floor mats did not have any retention hooks. We also had carburetors at one time and even hand cranks to start the engine! Time moves on.
Back to gas pedal heights, I noticed that the prior-generation Hyundai Sonata (2006-10) had its gas pedal about as close to the floor as the 2007-10 Toyota Camry, so it's not gas pedal location in and of itself that causes the problems.
What was clear from the photos supplied by Edmunds and reposted in these forums is that the original-design all-weather mat for the Lexus ES had a groove that could catch on the lower end of the accelerator pedal if the mat was not secure.
Come to think of it, if I were Supreme Auto Czar, I'd outlaw mats altogether and decree that all flooring material in cars and trucks be easily cleanable insulated textured rubber or plastic. It really makes no sense to have carpeting in vehicles where it's unavoidable to track in dirt, mud, salt, and slush. And even sillier to have mats to protect mats.
Japanese sales of new cars and trucks continue their solid comeback in February. Japan has filed away carmageddon. Japan is utterly unimpressed by the Toyota troubles. Japan has not been spared Toyota recalls. The hearings and public apologies have received wide coverage in Japan. And what is the Japanese reaction? A plus 47.9 percent vote of confidence.
In the Saylor case, yes. BUT the evidence suggests he didn't stomp hard enough on the brakes and keep his foot firmly planted on the pedal. If you brake and release repeatedly without applying full pressure, the rotors will overheat and the pads will start to disintegrate over a long enough period. He did travel several miles, right?
Plus we don't know how worn the brakes were from the earlier incident that occurred a few days earlier. And who knows, maybe there were others using that loaner car that also had problems but didn't report them? No one has stated how long that incorrect all-weather mat was in the car on top of the regular mat.
I agree. Congress decides to invite who will testify. For maximum impact, a chance to pontificate, and pure sensationalism, have the poor lady testify first. But don't invite the Toyota techs or the NHTSA investigator, who might have different tales to tell.
Then back her up with the "Kane and Gilbert Show." Next grill the Toyota execs. Make a big hue and cry beforehand about the righteousness of having the head honcho, Akio Toyoda, appear and apologize before the
inquisitionhearing.When he does agree to testify, as well as his head people in the US, make a big stink afterward about not having the "engineers on the ground" testify. As if Congress intended to invite them in the first place to hear boring "engineer-speak." There wouldn't have been suitable sound bites for the breathless media broadcasts.
Freudian slip?
The statement that Congress only wanted to hear from Dr Gilbert (and all of his technical engineering speak) and not any of Toyota's engineers to explain their alleged exhaustive research borders on silly. Particularly true if Toyota would have said that their engineers could clear everything up.
No, Toyota didn't want them to testify. They didn't offer to have them testify. And, didn't even want to submit their names to Congress to be invited to testify.
In short, they didn't want their engineers to have to rebut Dr Gilbert's expert testimony because they couldn't. They must have known this because Cr Gilbert submitted his findings to Toyota well before he testified in front of Congress. Toyota summarily dismissed his findings. Bad move on their part as I'm sure they didn't know at the time he would give it again, under oath, in front of Congress.
Congress invites who they want and when they want. Doesn't anybody follow Congress closely? I grew up in D.C. Remember the McCarthy hearings? How about the scene from The Godfather? Hey, as long as we're talking fiction I thought I throw in some of my own to go along with some of what I've been reading here.
The only folks who profit from Congressional hearings are the members who get free air time to run for re-election.
John
Absolutely. I lived and worked in the DC area from 1979-92. I even attended a few hearings myself (spectator only).
Toyota will never call some of these claimants/witnesses outright liars, but I certainly don't mind doing it for them. I believe Toyota is terrified of the jacked up US tort system and will just go along to get along here.
In a few years everyone will agree, in our perfect hindsight, that Toyota was railroaded just like Audi was and was shamelessly exploited by a bunch of hysterical kooks, liars, and shyster lawyers.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
No...what happened here was Toyota didn't tell Congress of anyone who could have testified on their behalf, didn't want anyone of their engineers to be questioned by Congress, nor wanted no one under oath who could technically explained what they did indeed know.
Originally, Mr Toyoda didn't even want to be questioned.
The only way Congress is going to be able to question Toyota engineers who are familiar with what happened is for Congress to subpoena them.....something that NHTSA could very well compel Congress to do as they dig further into this mess.
But NHTSA itself has subpoena power, and it would make more sense for the agency to carry on the investigation as DOT Secretary LaHood has given them a clear mandate to do so.
The best protection for consumers is what we are doing here and what happens in the market place - the free flow of information and freedom of choice. As we can see with Toyota, government failied miserably in preventing these problems, so now the lawyers will proceed with the "punishment" and consumers will stop buying their products until they are convinced that Toyota has changed its ways. That is the best form of consumer protection.
Anybody else want to comment on xlu's explanation? (post #6260)
I'll take a shot at the conclusion if you like:
"Camry unintended acceleration is due to the CPU mis-interpret the driver pedal action in the wrong direction.
Prius brake hesitation is due to the CPU not checking the brake encoder (sensor) fast enough.
Corolla steering problem is due to not enough fine step in the steering encoder (sensor). "
This should maybe be re-written as:
Camry unintended acceleration is possibly due to the CPU mis-interpret the driver pedal action in the wrong direction.
Prius brake hesitation is possibly due to the CPU not checking the brake encoder (sensor) fast enough.
Corolla steering problem is possibly due to not enough fine step in the steering encoder (sensor).
Too many people are taking an absolute view one way or the other.
It's either that Toyota designed their cars to randomly kill their customers, and the whole thing was a devious plan from the outset, or Toyota is the best thing since sliced bread and the customers who died or were injured should have learned to drive properly and just slipped it into neutral, turned off the ignition, applied the brakes and everything would have turned out just fine.
That there is a mechanical issue (mats, faulty pedal) is established. That there is a software/firmware issue has yet to be proven, but to deny even the possibility seems short sighted at best.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460