not sure that you and joe are making your alma mater proud. the lack of questioning of what others' say and then using it to support you position is bothersome.
A little over the line regarding Edmunds' Rules of the Road? Not an insult? I was quoting Joe Sherlock, who in turn was quoting Car and Driver.
And what do you mean by "the lack of questioning of what others say?"
The point in my prior posts has been that you have to scrutinize ALL the evidence scientifically, not take one side's testimony at face value.
I agree, it's a crappy driver problem. But that just perpetuates the idea that it's always the other guy we have ta look out for.
I have noticed from driving the nation's interstate system that, for one thing, most people look at the speed limit and just have to go about 5-10mph faster than the limit. OK fine. Speed. But, the problem is, a lot of people, even some who feel in their own mind that "ya oways have ta watch out for the udder guy", don't understand that you can't speed in to all driving situations. Sometimes you actually have to slow down. Even hit the forbidden brake system of your vehicle while on the expressway. Oh no no no! Say it isn't so! Braking on the freeway! No way!
I read of a horrible crash in Oregon in either the late 90's or early 2000's. It happened while we still lived up north of Seattle. There was a horribly strong wind on the Oregon side up above the Columbia River Gorge. An east-west highway on the Oregon side, the situation involved a long downhill straightaway and a long string of cars on the highway. I believe it was a 2-way highway at this location. Down the hill this string of cars went at the 65mph speed limit.
Not a problem, usually. But, that day, the farmer's soils were being kicked up be a horribly strong wind. Dust was blowing across the highway, making sightlines a real problem for drivers.
What did most of the vehicle driver's do? They didn't stop, pull over, or even slow down to a safe and sane speed. They either went the speed limit or faster than the speed limit, even in the insane duststorm. Come on people!
Those smart enough to pull off the highway and go up the dirt embankment off to the side a bit did so. They rolled their windows down and heard the awful sound of crashing metal and screeching tires. They said they'll never forget the horrible crashing sounds.
In all, IIRC 8 people were killed and something like 22 were injured. I may have the figures off, this happened a while back. It did make The Everett Herald newspaper I always read.
The Oregon Highway Patrol commented on the lack of foresight by the majority of the drivers and the nasty lack of common sense.
And this is what I believe gagrice and I know it's what iluvmysephia1 means here. A lack of common sense, too fast for driving conditions at all times unfortunately driving situation prevails nowadays. And it's been this way for a long time. ESC and ABS may seem to be necessary and yes, my '08 Lancer GTS has the EBD and ABS brake system. Great.
I'm just making the point that, along with the latest gadgetry, why don't we throw some actual common sense driving skill in to the mix, too? My story illustrates what happens when it is lacking. It is really sad and it is also really true.
Why didn't Toyota/Lexus get the Smith's car and tear it apart to find out the root cause?
Did you know the Smith car was sold to another family (apparently by a Toyota dealer) and they have enjoyed 27K trouble-free miles with this "possessed" vehicle? I understand that Toyota is now examining it.
Let's be real here. Minimize this all you want. That's what Toyota wants you to do. But one death is too many. One accident is too many. One harrowing experience as was suffered by the Smiths is too many.
You're from Ohio? Then, if one death is too many, are you pushing your legislators to pass a universal motorcycle helmet use law? What about a primary seat belt law, where you can be cited simply for driving around unbelted? About half of the states have the latter, including most of the conservative states of the Deep South. If you're not pushing for such improvements in your traffic safety laws, both of which have been shown to save lives, your comments about "one death too many" ring hollow.
I still don't see your point. Just because the Camry may not have been making a full 268 horsepower during Car and Driver's test doesn't negate the exercise. The throttle was pinned to the floor, and they tried braking at the same time. The car stopped, in only a little beyond its normal stopping distance.
Seems like a pretty small nit to pick. After all, during the alleged real-world sudden acceleration incidents at WOT, the cars woudn't be necessarily have been generating peak horsepower either.
C&D's point is that the car will not run away if you stomp hard on the brakes (without even shifting to neutral).
,,,I'm just making the point that, along with the latest gadgetry, why don't we throw some actual common sense driving skill in to the mix, too? My story illustrates what happens when it is lacking. It is really sad and it is also really true.
Your points are all well taken. I've driven in heavy fog where some people will just go merrily along at speeds where they simply won't be able to stop if there were an unseen obstruction in the road ahead. They just assume nothing will be there, and usually they're right.
But we know of no way to "throw some actual common sense driving skill in the mix," outside of a marked police car in the vicinity. THAT usually gets people's attention. Again, people may know they shouldn't drive so fast in poor visibility conditions, but they take chances anyway or believe their skills are so superior, they can dodge any emergency.
i made my best effort to educate, i just failed. i'm referring to the momentum part of my post with the link and graph. look at this way, the test was made at a much lower speed and with the transmission in a different gear. i just don't see it as being close to the same circumstances.
2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
Ok, I don't have the C&D article convenient, but my understanding is they got each car up to 70 mph, then floored the gas, which of course would downshift the transmission a couple of gears. A split second later, they stomped on the brakes while holding the trottle to the floor.
The same test was repeated starting from 70 mph, but this time by stopping hard with no pressure on the gas pedal (normal panic stop).
Next the same two tests were conducted starting at 100 mph. Only the 500+ hp Roush Mustang took an extraordinarily long time to stop when gas and brakes were both depressed.
You people are screaming about the small number of deaths due to alleged Toyota sudden acceleration, but you're willing to tolerate many, many more deaths by making stability control an option?
I don't lose sleep over people going out and driving drunk, texting or any other human error that results in them killing themselves. When someone gets killed by no fault of their own or due to a failure in an automobile I get upset. That is why Toyota is in this pickle of their own making.
You obviously are big on all the statistics concerning different types of safety devices. So why are you so easy on Toyota when they have obviously built cars that are not as safe as they should be. They have failures that kill people and you seem fine with that. They cover up those failures and you do not get upset. For someone that seems so interested in automotive safety, you leave a lot on the table defending Toyota. You have tried to denigrate every witness against Toyota. Yet never say anything negative about the Toyota execs that are only trying to cover their hind ends.
I just don't see you as a warrior for safety with your protective attitude toward Toyota.
So tell me how traction control is so important to safety? When people cannot even get up their driveways when there is a bit of snow using Toyota traction control.
I don't lose sleep over people going out and driving drunk, texting or any other human error that results in them killing themselves. When someone gets killed by no fault of their own or due to a failure in an automobile I get upset. That is why Toyota is in this pickle of their own making..
Let me get this straight. You don't care about the people whose lives are snuffed out in auto crashes because of human error, from the egregious (driving after too much drinking) to one of simple misjudgment (say, not properly gauging the speed and distance of an approaching vehicle that has the legal right of way? But if a vehicular defect results in deaths, those are far more worthy of your sympathy.
A life is a life in my book. And the vast majority of the 37,000 Americans killed every year perish because someone made a mistake, not because of vehicular malfunction. People are not perfect, "to err is human," as the Bard once said.
I am defending Toyota from what I see is mass hysteria, very much like what occurred with the Audi 5000 some 25 years ago. The company is recalling millions of cars to implement known remedies which will solve the problem of runaways, AND they are going one step beyond by making brake-throttle overrides standard in all production by the end of this year and retrofitting many of the cars recalled for the other 2 fixes. Most manufacturers do not yet have these overrides.
You and others though have it ingrained in your minds that there is some as-yet unidentified e-gremlin in the software or firmware of the cars' throttle systems without a shred of solid evidence besides the one known case in Jersey plus Dr. Gilbert's "crossed wires" experiment. This has become a witch hunt, with Toyota in the crosshairs. I don't trust Sean Kane at all, this is true. Have you or anyone else found his credentials other than being a shill for trial lawyers? Mrs. Smith played well for the cameras but claiming God stopped her car doesn't pass muster with me.
I also never said traction control was "so important to safety." It's stability control that makes the big contribution. (And if you can't get up your driveway, there's generally a button to disable the traction control.)
Good night, and hopefully no earthquakes tomorrow!
My first reaction to runaway acceleration would be to tap on the brakes. Thinking the CC had a brain fart. That could possibly be enough to lose vacuum assist to the brakes. I am not buying the C&D test when you look at the completely fried brakes on the ES350 it was not the vacuum assist that was lost. It was the brakes themselves were incapable of stopping the car under acceleration. If C&D was going to all that trouble why not duplicate the problem? Force WOT and when they reach 120 MPH try to stop the car and or put it into neutral at that speed. Did they use a 2009 ES350 for the test? There could be different programming in the ECU for the transmission.
Where is ToyLex in all this testing. You would think they would be out on the track trying to prove their cars are safe and can stop under any circumstance. My guess is they know they are screwed.
So far NO legitimate test of the ES350 under similar circumstances as the CHP that crashed.
Let me get this straight. You don't care about the people whose lives are snuffed out in auto crashes because of human error, from the egregious (driving after too much drinking) to one of simple misjudgment (say, not properly gauging the speed and distance of an approaching vehicle that has the legal right of way? But if a vehicular defect results in deaths, those are far more worthy of your sympathy.
Without any reservations. That is exactly what I said.
A life is a life in my book. And the vast majority of the 37,000 Americans killed every year perish because someone made a mistake, not because of vehicular malfunction. People are not perfect, "to err is human," as the Bard once said.
So what is your point? You err you may die. Hopefully you don't take someone else with you.
The company is recalling millions of cars to implement known remedies which will solve the problem of runaways
You have to know that is just so much bunk.
You and others though have it ingrained in your minds that there is some as-yet unidentified e-gremlin in the software or firmware of the cars' throttle systems
I am leaning toward cheap electronic devices. Such as the failed Throttle Body controller and sensors in the ABC Avalon car. Without some fail safe brake override those cheap parts Toyota is installing could continue to cause UA and kill innocent people. For myself, one person killed by a faulty car is worse than 10,000 killed by their own ignorance.
People that drive too fast for the conditions or crash while talking on a cell phone should pay for their behavior. They can no longer threaten someone else with their lack of common sense.
A House Democrat on Friday said Toyota Motor Corp. documents show the automaker deliberately withheld testing and design data in crash lawsuits against it.
In thousands of pages of records subpoenaed by a House committee, a former Toyota attorney claims that the company chose to pay large settlements in civil cases rather than reveal the "Books of Knowledge" -- a secret database covering all vehicle lines and parts.
Rep. Ed Towns, D-N.Y., chairman of the House Oversight and Government Reform Committee, said the documents subpoenaed from ex-Toyota lawyer Dimitrios Biller "indicate Toyota deliberately withheld records that it was legally required to produce."
Biller also accuses Toyota of trying to hide "evidence of safety defects from consumers and regulators, and fostered a culture of 'hypocrisy and deceit,' " Towns said.
Deadline is March 12
Towns' committee gave Toyota until March 12 to explain the documents, and may hold hearings after that.
In a letter to Inaba on Friday, asking for a response, Towns said the documents "indicate a systematic disregard for the law and routine violation of court discovery orders in litigation."
"People injured in crashes involving Toyota vehicles may have been injured a second time when Toyota failed to produce relevant evidence in court," Towns wrote.
"Moreover, this also raises very serious questions as to whether Toyota has also withheld substantial, relevant information" from government investigators.
>you pushing your legislators to pass a universal motorcycle helmet use law? What about a primary seat belt law, where you can be cited simply for driving around unbelted?
Motorcycle helmet use law: The problem here is toyota's inherent lack of safety in its controls and electronics. A motorcycle is not being questioned as being unsafe before of something built wrong in it. The use of helmet is a rider's choice.
Primary seat belt law: You again have wrong information: Ohio has a primary seat belt law. However use of seat belts isn't as important as having a vehicle with properly operating controls and safety features. A runaway vehicle is unsafe with or without a seatbelt on.
>your traffic safety laws, both of which have been shown to save lives, your comments about "one death too many" ring hollow.
That sounds like a Jimmy Swaggart lecture on not being hypocritical.
The question here is toyota and their product and their handling of problems found in the product. The question here is the misuse of the NHTSA process by manipulating data and using people with inside knowledge and/or connections. The question is keeping information from drivers of the vehicles and endangering them and their families if they are the one in ten-thousand who hits the jackpot and has a runaway car one day.
delray.....I'd ask the question to the current owners of the Smith's Lexus if they knew of its history before they bought it. Further, if they didn't, would they still have purchased the Lexus if they did.
From my understanding, the Lexus was traded-in/sold to another dealer by the Smiths. At the very least, the pads on the brakes would have had to be replaced after the incidence. The rotors probably were replaced, too, since I'm sure they were very warped given that eye witness accounts stipulated they saw smoke and flames coming from the Smith's Lexus during their ordeal. Did Toyota/Lexus reflash the ECU while that service was being done to include a brake over ride? We don't know. Toy/Lex isn't talking.
If not, that car is a ticking time bomb....awaiting the same set of circumstances that caused the 100MPH run away that Ms Smith experienced. As such, it should be off the road.
If Toyota has it in their hot little hands, that's a good thing. I hope they're honest in their assessment. I wish that NHTSA (even better, Dr Gilbert) could inspect the car so they can get to the root cause of what happened.
I am from OH. I no longer ride a motorcycle, but have owned a couple in the past. I'm a big believer in mandatory helmet laws. My views are unpopular with about 1/2 of motorcycle riders. I've heard all the reasons why those who oppose it don't need to have them. None of them hold water, in my estimation.
We already have mandatory seat belt requirements. Don't know about where you live, but the seat belt law is plastered everywhere with the tag line "click it or ticket". In my 30+ years of having a driver's license, I've been in two serious accidents (not the fender-bender variety). In both instances I can say that wearing a seat belt either saved my life, or very certainly protected me from serious injury. So yeah, I'm all for them.
Neither motorcycle helmet laws or seat belt usage laws are the issue for this discussion, though.
>Toyota's failure, and subsequent cover up, to implement, test and design safe vehicles.
Indeed that is the core problem here. Wearing a seat belt while riding a motorcycle as a primary traffic law doesn't fix a runaway motor locked into gear.
Seatbelt and helmet laws are ok by me. I just don't see how that has anything to do with Toyota's current mess. It is a deflection away from their responsibility to produce vehicles that DO NOT have anomalies that kill people. And hopefully people that have lost their lives and or freedom as a result of Toyota negligence will not have been in vain.
For myself when I see a vehicle with the familiar Bull in a China Shop hood ornament in my rear view mirror, I give them plenty of room to run. :shades:
I haven't gotten to the point that I avoid Toyota rigs on the road, or give them more room than is normally required. But I am starting to think along those lines.
No, they ought ta open up and spill the beans they know and start fixing these huge problems with their ECU and possibly some faulty sensors. Quickly.
Reuters 2/1/2002 [typo - should be 2/1/2010]: “The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) reviewed the automaker’s plan to install new parts in existing accelerator systems or replace them entirely. “Toyota has announced its remedy and based on its current knowledge, NHTSA has no reason to challenge this remedy,” the agency said in a statement. No deaths or injuries are suspected in cases of sticking pedals, the government said.”
Injury Law Blog & News, 2/23/2010: "Of the 2,000 complaints of sudden acceleration, just 5 percent blamed a sticking gas pedal. No government investigation of sudden-acceleration problems in Toyota vehicles has identified a sticking pedal as a potential cause.”
Carquestions.com 1/30/2010: Drops Toyota pedal in bucket of ice water, bakes it, finds no fault. Issues a call to send in pictures or videos of faulty pedal: “How is it that we cannot get a picture of one of these pedals with so many people complaining? It just doesn’t make sense.”
The Korea Herald, 2/13/2010: “Many observers suspect something other than safety concerns behind the harsh response of the United States to Toyota’s recall. To former Kia Motors chairman Kim Sun-hong, the U.S. reaction to the Toyota problem is an act of “killing the chickens to scare the monkeys.” This Chinese proverb illustrates the cruel yet effective tactic of killing one to tame a hundred: As monkeys misbehave in the treetops, annoyed humans violently kill chickens in front of the monkeys. From fear, the monkeys get silent and tamed. Some even fall out of the trees.”
Ron Hart in the Walton Sun, 2/27/2010: “ Congress dragged Toyota, kicking and bowing, to Washington to testify in one of the indignant show trials they so love. I wish they would subpoena themselves and bring Congress before a Senate hearing, under oath and under the hot lights of TV cameras. Then we might get to the roots of most problems in America: Too much government intervention, confusing rules, and second-guessing politicians.”
Norfolk Daily News, 2/4/2010: “Wrecks involving old cars are a lot like wrecks involving any newly recalled Toyota: far more often than not, the cause is not mechanical. The cause is the driver, and there’s no recall procedure for that.”
US Recall News, 2/3/2002: “Toyota recall: Four different causes. So which is it?“
Wikipedia, undated: “The 5 Whys is a question-asking method used to explore the cause/effect relationships underlying a particular problem. Ultimately, the goal of applying the 5 Whys method is to determine a root cause of a defect or problem.”
What we don't need is more congressmen, lawyers and cops. You start inserting them into the working level engineering and everything will grind to a halt due to [non-permissible content removed] covering and finger pointing. If there are electronic or computer issues involved, then it seems to me it will be inevitable down the road that other vehicles will likely incur similar problems. I think the focus should be getting a handle on this area to help preclude future incidents more than a media frenzy of politics and trial lawyers.
Still more, from individual commenters (like us in Edmunds):
vww12: "Looks like there wasn’t much reason to do any recall at all, but with the mainstream media and the politicians in full attack mode, you have to be seen 'doing something.'
"If anything, attach the driver mats via clips, don’t panic, practice a couple of times how to put your automatic transmission in “Neutral”, an be on your way."
Runfromcheney :"I have always felt that this thing with Toyota was getting blown out of proportion by the media and the government as part of a smear to aid GM. The fact that everybody is tooting on the Corolla’s steering problems while I have heard nothing about the Cobalt, which suffers from the exact same problem, confirms this."
Dynamic88: "There is no need for conspiracy theories. The hearings are just a chance for polls to pontificate. The media is just piling on, as they usually do."
Just goes to show how paranoid folks can get..34 ALLEGED SUA deaths in 10 yrs. Keyword-Alleged..As you said 40k drive in crashes each year..Where are the folks on that???Ban alcohol-you prevent 25k of those deaths.Ban texting-save 5k deaths..Driver education can save thousands of deaths--like emergency training during UA,tire blowout,brake failure,,etc etc. :sick:
This is an absolute stupid waste of taxpayer money . We have become irrational ,phobic without any clear thinking. No wonder er are trailing the world now.
And this is not just about Toyota..Any car maker has pretty safe cars breaking and accelerating wise.. Reliability,quality are different.. But safety wise, any new car in the US is safe-whether it`s electronic or mechanical.A Toyota is as safe as a Ford,GM,Honda,dodge,Nissan,VW.MB,Lexus,BMW,Mercury, Mitsu,Suzuki,Audi,infiniti etc etc... This is just absurd mass hysteria.. :sick:
Primary seat belt law: You again have wrong information: Ohio has a primary seat belt law. However use of seat belts isn't as important as having a vehicle with properly operating controls and safety features. A runaway vehicle is unsafe with or without a seatbelt on.
Are you saying police can stop a driver for nonuse of seat belts in the absence of another violation such as speeding? Last I checked this is not the case. If Ohio has changed this, my apologies -- maybe the current legislature has upgraded your so-called secondary law to primary status, effective later in the year. A link would be appreciated.
BTW, the Virginia Senate has passed a primary belt use law for several years running, only to have it shot down in the House of Delegates. Eventually, we'll get there. But my state does have a universal motorcycle helmet use law, unlike yours.
Seat belt use combined with modern airbag systems have been proven to be more than 50% effective in saving lives in frontal crashes. That is, your chances of surviving any given frontal crash are twice as great if you are belted and have frontal airbags. The seat belts alone actually provide most of the benefit. I do hope that anyone in here lambasting Toyota about sudden acceleration are not regular seat belt users. :surprise:
Sure it's better not to crash in the first place, which is why effective brakes, lighting, electronic controls, instrumentation, and visibility are also important. But some crashes are unavoidable, and in other cases people make simple mistakes (or worse of course).
gagrice....helmet or seatbelt laws don't have anything to do with Toyota's woes. You're right on that count.
delray....what's been said all along, "sticky pedals" aren't the cause of the UA issues Toyota has been experiencing. It's a little "smoke and mirrors" on Toyota's part to keep the bigger issue (electronics and software) off the table as far as a fix is concerned.
Even in Japan and China (where Mr Toyoda is heading next), the same story has evolved with Toyota....
In any market, though, Toyota is facing an uphill struggle to mollify both consumers and regulators.
In Japan, Toyota has recalled 223,000 vehicles for hybrid models, including the Prius, for braking problems. But the company has a major stake in its home market and as the world's biggest automaker, is viewed as a role model not just for automakers but for Japan as a whole.
Japanese Transport Minister Seiji Maehara, appearing at a nationwide broadcast news show Sunday, complained that Toyota's "corporate culture" reflected a reluctance to be forthright on recalls.
"The company is not taking the problem as seriously as it should," he said, saying the company's quality chief, Shinichi Sasaki, came to explain the problems to the ministry only after being asked to do so.
>Are you saying police can stop a driver for nonuse of seat belts in the absence of another violation such as speeding?
I find that cops sitting watching for seatbelts (shoulderbelts) no being worn is not a very effective use of their ability and skills for the public interest. A primary seatbelt law is way down on the need list. Agressive drivers and dangerous drivers are more important to me here in Ohio.
"At a time when about 40,000 Americans die in cars each year and hundreds of thousands more are injured, NHTSA's motor vehicle safety budget is a mere $140 million. By comparison, taxpayers will pay more than four times as much -- about $675 million -- to guard the U.S. Embassy in Baghdad."
I agree, just like the Explorer tire fiasco. Regardless of causes, and not understating the tragic loss of life, the numbers are extremely small. There have been incidents of UA on other makes as well. I hope the industry looks into the potential electronics problems, and I believe they are. However, nothing is 100% in life as the not too long ago Air France Airbus incident shows.
Well ,here are the answers to Toyota`s Electronic throttle system and others straight from the horse`s mouth.Toyota addresses these issues in its website with a video. Check out all 6 videos. :P
Many people think it's good to go with digital on everything. It's not always the case.
Let's start with a very simple control in every electronics, the volume control. In the old products, the volume control is a simple potentiometer. If you turn it slowly, you can change volume in indefinitely small steps (fine adjustment). If you turn it really fast, you can bring the volume from min to max in one revolution and in less than half a second. That's the beauty of analog (mechanical) controls.
Now let's see how a digital volume control works. The volume knob turns a digital encoder which has certain contacts at certain position. Let's say the encoder has 8 contact positions in a revolution (12, 1:30, 3, ..., 9, 10:30 o'clock position). The CPU would check periodically where the current contact position is and compare with the past position to determine which direction the volume knob is turning and how many steps; the CPU would change volume accordingly.
You can see two major problems of digital volume already:
1) Fine adjustment vs fast change: if you want to make very fine changes in volume, say 8000 steps from min to max. Then the knob needs to be turned 1000 revolutions for that! If you want to make less total turns to one revolution like the analog volume, then you only have 8 steps!
2) Rotation direction and speed detection: let's say the CPU checks the encoder position 4 times a second (CPU needs to multi-tasking with many controls). The 1st time the CPU found the contact is at 12 o'clock; 2nd time is at 9 o'clock. Then the CPU assumes the volume is turned down by 2 clicks. But the user may have turned th knob up (clockwise) very fast from 12 o'clock to 9 o'clock between the 1/4 second CPU checks the encoder! You can see that the CPU could easily and totally mis-interprets the user action in the opposite way and wrong number of steps!
These are the 2 exact challenges when designing the car's pedal, steering and brake into digital (electronics) controls.
Camry unintended acceleration is due to the CPU mis-interpret the driver pedal action in the wrong direction.
Prius brake hesitation is due to the CPU not checking the brake encoder (sensor) fast enough.
Corolla steering problem is due to not enough fine step in the steering encoder (sensor).
I challenge Toyota engineers to post their solution to the problems I listed above in their car design.
delt....I've watched all those vids before. Again, way too much evidence and dismissal of customer complaints and feedback (in the thousands) that contradict what Toyota is stating. Plus, there's Dr Gilbert's results, which he gave under oath to Congress (something we didn't see from Toyota's folks in any of those videos) contradict them, too. Dr Gilbert had a cozy relationship with Toyota. Why not hire him to do their testing? Why? Because they don't want to hear the results.
Even Toyota's home country is saying that they're hiding important safety information from the public.
I mean, I guess Toyota can keep going down this same rode if they want. But, it all points to the same thing....Toyota is fighting tooth and nail not to have to recall 3x-4x, maybe even 5x the 8.5 million vehicles they've already recalled. NHTSA's going to come out with their own report after they finish with their own research into Toyota's electronics/software problems.
It sounds like the Japanese gov't is going to do something similar. Who knows what the Chinese will do, given their not so friendly past with Japan. We haven't even begun to address European countries responses.
For myself, one person killed by a faulty car is worse than 10,000 killed by their own ignorance.
I hope you're just trying to make a point and aren't that callous. Many (most?) of the 10,000 aren't killed by "ignorance."
What about a man or woman who puts in a hard day at the office (not necessarily of their own volition) and falls asleep while driving home and dies? What of the somewhat inexperienced teenage driver on a road for the first time who goes just a little too fast around an unmarked curve at night and loses it? What of a young mother who gets distracted by sound of her baby crying out suddenly in the back seat? What of the older person who misjudges the speed of an oncoming car and makes a left turn across the path of said car? They all deserve to die?
Or to put it another way, to save the 34 killed by Toyota alleged sudden acceleration, you'd rather see 340,000 people sacrificed on our highways for the sin of ignorance?
I wouldn't want to be related to you if such were the case.
In thousands of pages of records subpoenaed by a House committee, a former Toyota attorney claims that the company chose to pay large settlements in civil cases rather than reveal the "Books of Knowledge" -- a secret database covering all vehicle lines and parts.
Corporations settle out of court with litigants all the time, and the plaintiffs are sworn to secrecy. This is perfectly legal under our justice system. I don't like it myself personally, but that is the way it is. I fail to see why the Toyota settlements are different.
I can't wait to see if this Biller is a loose cannon or not.
Motorcycle helmet use law: The problem here is toyota's inherent lack of safety in its controls and electronics. A motorcycle is not being questioned as being unsafe before of something built wrong in it. The use of helmet is a rider's choice.
It your assumption that Toyota has an inherent lack of safety in its controls and electronics -- where is the solid evidence? No, you want to believe Toyotas are junk.
My point about motorcycle helmets is they should NOT be a matter of choice. We mandate seat belt use, the same should be true for helmet use. I have no choice to pay extra in insurance premiums or Medicaid taxes to pay for brain injuries that may have been avoided if an injured motorcyclist wore a helmet. Besides if saving lives from alleged sudden acceleration is important, than so is the case for saving motorcyclists' lives when their heads hit the pavement.
Who IS being hypocritical here? All lives are important, not just the relative few who have experienced alleged sudden acceleration and died because of it.
I watched the advertisement videos on the link deltheking cited above.
I want to hear from toyota's engineers, preferably US citizens working here, that testify under oath what they have found through 9 years of searching or not searching for the flaws causing the runaways.
I am from OH. I no longer ride a motorcycle, but have owned a couple in the past. I'm a big believer in mandatory helmet laws. My views are unpopular with about 1/2 of motorcycle riders. I've heard all the reasons why those who oppose it don't need to have them. None of them hold water, in my estimation.
We already have mandatory seat belt requirements. Don't know about where you live, but the seat belt law is plastered everywhere with the tag line "click it or ticket".
I'm glad you believe in mandatory motorcycle helmet use laws. And I'm sure well over 90% of Edmunds' posters wear seat belts when in a car.
My point which still doesn't seem to be getting through is the number of deaths alleged to have been caused by Toyota sudden acceleration is small, at 34. I'm not saying these deaths aren't important. Every death is.
However, even if this number were an order of magnitude greater (340), this pales in comparison to the number of lives that could be saved if all 50 states had mandatory helmet use laws and primary seat belt use laws. The research is quite clear on this.
Right now, 18 states have secondary belt use laws, including Ohio, according to this map dated February 2010. This means that police must stop motorists for other violations before enforcing these laws. New Hampshire has no belt use law at all for adults.
And imid, primary belt use laws don't mean police have to wait in hiding to stop people not wearing belts. Compliance goes up just with the fact of having such a law and widely publicizing it.
Only 20 states plus DC have universal mandatory helmet use laws, as shown in this map.
Again, just taking these 2 steps would save a lot more lives than are allegedly being lost to Toyota sudden acceleration crashes. And having sudden acceleration doesn't mean you're doomed -- you can survive by thinking straight. Not that I believe that such a defect should be allowed in any car, but we will never have 100% defect-free cars. A look at the annual list of recalls shows this very well.
And seriously, iluv, avoiding Toyotas on the road? Your overall odds of getting hit by lightning are probably greater than getting hit by a suddenly accelerating Toyota.
34 Toyota UA deaths is 34 too many! The key here, is what Toyota needs to do moving from today forward (installing brake over ride, which they don't want to do a recall for). They've got a glitch in their electronics/software. Of that I'm confident. Whether they can move quickly enough to find, and remedy it is up for debate. What they can, and should do, is to install brake over ride to easily defeat their UA problems.
They're going to be forced, one way or another, to do just that, IMHO!. It comes down to how far they're going to have to go back, and the model years that they're going to have to do the install on. If NHTSA, or China, or Japan, or China, makes them go all the way back to MY 2000, that's going to be a huge bill, since they're going to not only going to do a reflash. Toyota will also have to replace the ECUs or EPROMs to accept the reflash. MY 2004 going forward, perhaps they can get away with just doing a reflash, and nothing more.
If I were them, I'd be proactive and reflash 2004s and up. At least that way, they can say they were proactive and at least semi-cooperative. If they choose to go down the path they're going now, gov'ts will probably be prone to be more punitive in the actions they take against Toyota.
As far as seat belt and motorcycle helmet laws, that's a discussion for a different thread.
37,261 people died on US highways in 2008, the last year for which we have accurate numbers.
34 people are alleged to have died from Toyota sudden acceleration since 1999 or 2000. That's about 3 lives per year on average. And Sean Kane is the dubious source of those numbers.
We're having congressional hearings and media hysteria over these 3 deaths per year, but what about the remaining 37,258 people killed in 2008 and the 100 killed every single day even as I type this?
>number of deaths alleged to have been caused by Toyota sudden acceleration is small, at 34.
Wow. Bet they're not small to the relatives and family of the 34. It's not like the parent chose to drive with no seatbelt on. It's not like the motorcycle rider thought no helmet was a cool way to ride.
You guys just don't seem to get it, or maybe you don't want to. I've said that EVERY single death on US highways is important. But the way to tackle the problem is to go after the so-called "low-hanging fruit" first. We have so many ways in which solid scientific research has shown us how to go about lowering the horrendous toll, but lack the political will to do so.
In the other corner, we have gagrice who shamelessly said that all those thousands who died of their own fault do not have his sympathy. Maybe you should address your posts to him.
>I've said that EVERY single death on US highways is important.
That's good. So the 340,000 other deaths are something to work on as well as the toyota risk in the cars still sitting in garages around the country, and world.
Chasing seat belt users to make them use the belts is a waste of police time other than they might find no insurance, drinking, drugs, no license, false registration on the vehicle, when they make the traffic stops.
No motorcycle helmet is Darwin's way of improving the species.
Chasing seat belt users to make them use the belts is a waste of police time
It is not a waste of time,,,seat belt use increases chances of crash survival. You do wear yours, right?
You imply that I'm insensitive, but then you invoke Darwin. Despicable. You ought to be ashamed. Tell the decedents' relatives that their deaths were due to Darwinian selection. :mad:
And BTW, the world death toll from traffic crashes is 1.2 MILLION.
I hope you're just trying to make a point and aren't that callous. Many (most?) of the 10,000 aren't killed by "ignorance."
Your ideological approach is diametrically opposed to mine. I do not believe government has the right to save me from myself. It is their to protect me from others. In this case it is the duty of the NHTSA to protect the US consumer from Toyota's lies and arrogance. It is there to make sure beyond a reasonable doubt that their DBW systems are fail safe.
What you have ignored through out this fiasco that Toyota has brought on itself is the fact that the complaints of UA started when Toyota went to DBW. They are way out in the lead on complaints compared to all other auto makers combined. The Feds have one thing they should do. Tell Toyota to get their DBW systems working safely or quit selling cars in the USA. That includes Throttle, Brakes and Steering.
Yes, I do have a different ideological approach, which isn't the topic at hand. NHTSA should do what LaHood promised, and that is investigate the Toyota situation and have them rectify any problems found, beyond those already established (floormat interference and sticky pedals). I'm just not convinced that the DBW is the villian the hysterics have made it out to be.
I recall well the hell Audi went through with their own sudden acceleration scandal. Remember the teary-eyed minister's wife whose "runaway" Audi pinned her young son against the garage wall, killing him? Clarence Ditlow (Sean Kane's role model) was jumping up and down in outrage. We all know how the situation ended.
Comments
But remind me not to buy a used car from you.
Don't worry, I rarely "hot dog" my vehicles. A couple of "experiments" like I did won't hurt the car.
the lack of questioning of what others' say and then using it to support you position is bothersome.
A little over the line regarding Edmunds' Rules of the Road? Not an insult? I was quoting Joe Sherlock, who in turn was quoting Car and Driver.
And what do you mean by "the lack of questioning of what others say?"
The point in my prior posts has been that you have to scrutinize ALL the evidence scientifically, not take one side's testimony at face value.
I have noticed from driving the nation's interstate system that, for one thing, most people look at the speed limit and just have to go about 5-10mph faster than the limit. OK fine. Speed. But, the problem is, a lot of people, even some who feel in their own mind that "ya oways have ta watch out for the udder guy", don't understand that you can't speed in to all driving situations. Sometimes you actually have to slow down. Even hit the forbidden brake system of your vehicle while on the expressway. Oh no no no! Say it isn't so! Braking on the freeway! No way!
I read of a horrible crash in Oregon in either the late 90's or early 2000's. It happened while we still lived up north of Seattle. There was a horribly strong wind on the Oregon side up above the Columbia River Gorge. An east-west highway on the Oregon side, the situation involved a long downhill straightaway and a long string of cars on the highway. I believe it was a 2-way highway at this location. Down the hill this string of cars went at the 65mph speed limit.
Not a problem, usually. But, that day, the farmer's soils were being kicked up be a horribly strong wind. Dust was blowing across the highway, making sightlines a real problem for drivers.
What did most of the vehicle driver's do? They didn't stop, pull over, or even slow down to a safe and sane speed. They either went the speed limit or faster than the speed limit, even in the insane duststorm. Come on people!
Those smart enough to pull off the highway and go up the dirt embankment off to the side a bit did so. They rolled their windows down and heard the awful sound of crashing metal and screeching tires. They said they'll never forget the horrible crashing sounds.
In all, IIRC 8 people were killed and something like 22 were injured. I may have the figures off, this happened a while back. It did make The Everett Herald newspaper I always read.
The Oregon Highway Patrol commented on the lack of foresight by the majority of the drivers and the nasty lack of common sense.
And this is what I believe gagrice and I know it's what iluvmysephia1 means here. A lack of common sense, too fast for driving conditions at all times unfortunately driving situation prevails nowadays. And it's been this way for a long time. ESC and ABS may seem to be necessary and yes, my '08 Lancer GTS has the EBD and ABS brake system. Great.
I'm just making the point that, along with the latest gadgetry, why don't we throw some actual common sense driving skill in to the mix, too? My story illustrates what happens when it is lacking. It is really sad and it is also really true.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
Did you know the Smith car was sold to another family (apparently by a Toyota dealer) and they have enjoyed 27K trouble-free miles with this "possessed" vehicle? I understand that Toyota is now examining it.
Let's be real here. Minimize this all you want. That's what Toyota wants you to do. But one death is too many. One accident is too many. One harrowing experience as was suffered by the Smiths is too many.
You're from Ohio? Then, if one death is too many, are you pushing your legislators to pass a universal motorcycle helmet use law? What about a primary seat belt law, where you can be cited simply for driving around unbelted? About half of the states have the latter, including most of the conservative states of the Deep South. If you're not pushing for such improvements in your traffic safety laws, both of which have been shown to save lives, your comments about "one death too many" ring hollow.
Seems like a pretty small nit to pick. After all, during the alleged real-world sudden acceleration incidents at WOT, the cars woudn't be necessarily have been generating peak horsepower either.
C&D's point is that the car will not run away if you stomp hard on the brakes (without even shifting to neutral).
Your points are all well taken. I've driven in heavy fog where some people will just go merrily along at speeds where they simply won't be able to stop if there were an unseen obstruction in the road ahead. They just assume nothing will be there, and usually they're right.
But we know of no way to "throw some actual common sense driving skill in the mix," outside of a marked police car in the vicinity. THAT usually gets people's attention. Again, people may know they shouldn't drive so fast in poor visibility conditions, but they take chances anyway or believe their skills are so superior, they can dodge any emergency.
i'm referring to the momentum part of my post with the link and graph.
look at this way, the test was made at a much lower speed and with the transmission in a different gear. i just don't see it as being close to the same circumstances.
The same test was repeated starting from 70 mph, but this time by stopping hard with no pressure on the gas pedal (normal panic stop).
Next the same two tests were conducted starting at 100 mph. Only the 500+ hp Roush Mustang took an extraordinarily long time to stop when gas and brakes were both depressed.
I don't lose sleep over people going out and driving drunk, texting or any other human error that results in them killing themselves. When someone gets killed by no fault of their own or due to a failure in an automobile I get upset. That is why Toyota is in this pickle of their own making.
You obviously are big on all the statistics concerning different types of safety devices. So why are you so easy on Toyota when they have obviously built cars that are not as safe as they should be. They have failures that kill people and you seem fine with that. They cover up those failures and you do not get upset. For someone that seems so interested in automotive safety, you leave a lot on the table defending Toyota. You have tried to denigrate every witness against Toyota. Yet never say anything negative about the Toyota execs that are only trying to cover their hind ends.
I just don't see you as a warrior for safety with your protective attitude toward Toyota.
So tell me how traction control is so important to safety? When people cannot even get up their driveways when there is a bit of snow using Toyota traction control.
But ... stomp twice on the brakes?
Let me get this straight. You don't care about the people whose lives are snuffed out in auto crashes because of human error, from the egregious (driving after too much drinking) to one of simple misjudgment (say, not properly gauging the speed and distance of an approaching vehicle that has the legal right of way? But if a vehicular defect results in deaths, those are far more worthy of your sympathy.
A life is a life in my book. And the vast majority of the 37,000 Americans killed every year perish because someone made a mistake, not because of vehicular malfunction. People are not perfect, "to err is human," as the Bard once said.
I am defending Toyota from what I see is mass hysteria, very much like what occurred with the Audi 5000 some 25 years ago. The company is recalling millions of cars to implement known remedies which will solve the problem of runaways, AND they are going one step beyond by making brake-throttle overrides standard in all production by the end of this year and retrofitting many of the cars recalled for the other 2 fixes. Most manufacturers do not yet have these overrides.
You and others though have it ingrained in your minds that there is some as-yet unidentified e-gremlin in the software or firmware of the cars' throttle systems without a shred of solid evidence besides the one known case in Jersey plus Dr. Gilbert's "crossed wires" experiment. This has become a witch hunt, with Toyota in the crosshairs. I don't trust Sean Kane at all, this is true. Have you or anyone else found his credentials other than being a shill for trial lawyers? Mrs. Smith played well for the cameras but claiming God stopped her car doesn't pass muster with me.
I also never said traction control was "so important to safety." It's stability control that makes the big contribution. (And if you can't get up your driveway, there's generally a button to disable the traction control.)
Good night, and hopefully no earthquakes tomorrow!
Where is ToyLex in all this testing. You would think they would be out on the track trying to prove their cars are safe and can stop under any circumstance. My guess is they know they are screwed.
So far NO legitimate test of the ES350 under similar circumstances as the CHP that crashed.
Without any reservations. That is exactly what I said.
A life is a life in my book. And the vast majority of the 37,000 Americans killed every year perish because someone made a mistake, not because of vehicular malfunction. People are not perfect, "to err is human," as the Bard once said.
So what is your point? You err you may die. Hopefully you don't take someone else with you.
The company is recalling millions of cars to implement known remedies which will solve the problem of runaways
You have to know that is just so much bunk.
You and others though have it ingrained in your minds that there is some as-yet unidentified e-gremlin in the software or firmware of the cars' throttle systems
I am leaning toward cheap electronic devices. Such as the failed Throttle Body controller and sensors in the ABC Avalon car. Without some fail safe brake override those cheap parts Toyota is installing could continue to cause UA and kill innocent people. For myself, one person killed by a faulty car is worse than 10,000 killed by their own ignorance.
People that drive too fast for the conditions or crash while talking on a cell phone should pay for their behavior. They can no longer threaten someone else with their lack of common sense.
Toyota withheld evidence
A House Democrat on Friday said Toyota Motor Corp. documents show the automaker deliberately withheld testing and design data in crash lawsuits against it.
In thousands of pages of records subpoenaed by a House committee, a former Toyota attorney claims that the company chose to pay large settlements in civil cases rather than reveal the "Books of Knowledge" -- a secret database covering all vehicle lines and parts.
Rep. Ed Towns, D-N.Y., chairman of the House Oversight and Government Reform Committee, said the documents subpoenaed from ex-Toyota lawyer Dimitrios Biller "indicate Toyota deliberately withheld records that it was legally required to produce."
Biller also accuses Toyota of trying to hide "evidence of safety defects from consumers and regulators, and fostered a culture of 'hypocrisy and deceit,' " Towns said.
Deadline is March 12
Towns' committee gave Toyota until March 12 to explain the documents, and may hold hearings after that.
In a letter to Inaba on Friday, asking for a response, Towns said the documents "indicate a systematic disregard for the law and routine violation of court discovery orders in litigation."
"People injured in crashes involving Toyota vehicles may have been injured a second time when Toyota failed to produce relevant evidence in court," Towns wrote.
"Moreover, this also raises very serious questions as to whether Toyota has also withheld substantial, relevant information" from government investigators.
Motorcycle helmet use law: The problem here is toyota's inherent lack of safety in its controls and electronics. A motorcycle is not being questioned as being unsafe before of something built wrong in it. The use of helmet is a rider's choice.
Primary seat belt law: You again have wrong information: Ohio has a primary seat belt law. However use of seat belts isn't as important as having a vehicle with properly operating controls and safety features. A runaway vehicle is unsafe with or without a seatbelt on.
>your traffic safety laws, both of which have been shown to save lives, your comments about "one death too many" ring hollow.
That sounds like a Jimmy Swaggart lecture on not being hypocritical.
The question here is toyota and their product and their handling of problems found in the product. The question here is the misuse of the NHTSA process by manipulating data and using people with inside knowledge and/or connections. The question is keeping information from drivers of the vehicles and endangering them and their families if they are the one in ten-thousand who hits the jackpot and has a runaway car one day.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
From my understanding, the Lexus was traded-in/sold to another dealer by the Smiths. At the very least, the pads on the brakes would have had to be replaced after the incidence. The rotors probably were replaced, too, since I'm sure they were very warped given that eye witness accounts stipulated they saw smoke and flames coming from the Smith's Lexus during their ordeal. Did Toyota/Lexus reflash the ECU while that service was being done to include a brake over ride? We don't know. Toy/Lex isn't talking.
If not, that car is a ticking time bomb....awaiting the same set of circumstances that caused the 100MPH run away that Ms Smith experienced. As such, it should be off the road.
If Toyota has it in their hot little hands, that's a good thing. I hope they're honest in their assessment. I wish that NHTSA (even better, Dr Gilbert) could inspect the car so they can get to the root cause of what happened.
I am from OH. I no longer ride a motorcycle, but have owned a couple in the past. I'm a big believer in mandatory helmet laws. My views are unpopular with about 1/2 of motorcycle riders. I've heard all the reasons why those who oppose it don't need to have them. None of them hold water, in my estimation.
We already have mandatory seat belt requirements. Don't know about where you live, but the seat belt law is plastered everywhere with the tag line "click it or ticket".
In my 30+ years of having a driver's license, I've been in two serious accidents (not the fender-bender variety). In both instances I can say that wearing a seat belt either saved my life, or very certainly protected me from serious injury. So yeah, I'm all for them.
Neither motorcycle helmet laws or seat belt usage laws are the issue for this discussion, though.
But, what's at issue here, at its core, is Toyota's failure, and subsequent cover up, to implement, test and design safe vehicles.
Indeed that is the core problem here. Wearing a seat belt while riding a motorcycle as a primary traffic law doesn't fix a runaway motor locked into gear.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
For myself when I see a vehicle with the familiar Bull in a China Shop hood ornament in my rear view mirror, I give them plenty of room to run. :shades:
No, they ought ta open up and spill the beans they know and start fixing these huge problems with their ECU and possibly some faulty sensors. Quickly.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
A few choice quotes:
Reuters 2/1/2002 [typo - should be 2/1/2010]: “The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) reviewed the automaker’s plan to install new parts in existing accelerator systems or replace them entirely. “Toyota has announced its remedy and based on its current knowledge, NHTSA has no reason to challenge this remedy,” the agency said in a statement. No deaths or injuries are suspected in cases of sticking pedals, the government said.”
Injury Law Blog & News, 2/23/2010: "Of the 2,000 complaints of sudden acceleration, just 5 percent blamed a sticking gas pedal. No government investigation of sudden-acceleration problems in Toyota vehicles has identified a sticking pedal as a potential cause.”
Carquestions.com 1/30/2010: Drops Toyota pedal in bucket of ice water, bakes it, finds no fault. Issues a call to send in pictures or videos of faulty pedal: “How is it that we cannot get a picture of one of these pedals with so many people complaining? It just doesn’t make sense.”
The Korea Herald, 2/13/2010: “Many observers suspect something other than safety concerns behind the harsh response of the United States to Toyota’s recall. To former Kia Motors chairman Kim Sun-hong, the U.S. reaction to the Toyota problem is an act of “killing the chickens to scare the monkeys.” This Chinese proverb illustrates the cruel yet effective tactic of killing one to tame a hundred: As monkeys misbehave in the treetops, annoyed humans violently kill chickens in front of the monkeys. From fear, the monkeys get silent and tamed. Some even fall out of the trees.”
Ron Hart in the Walton Sun, 2/27/2010: “ Congress dragged Toyota, kicking and bowing, to Washington to testify in one of the indignant show trials they so love. I wish they would subpoena themselves and bring Congress before a Senate hearing, under oath and under the hot lights of TV cameras. Then we might get to the roots of most problems in America: Too much government intervention, confusing rules, and second-guessing politicians.”
Norfolk Daily News, 2/4/2010: “Wrecks involving old cars are a lot like wrecks involving any newly recalled Toyota: far more often than not, the cause is not mechanical. The cause is the driver, and there’s no recall procedure for that.”
US Recall News, 2/3/2002: “Toyota recall: Four different causes. So which is it?“
Wikipedia, undated: “The 5 Whys is a question-asking method used to explore the cause/effect relationships underlying a particular problem. Ultimately, the goal of applying the 5 Whys method is to determine a root cause of a defect or problem.”
vww12: "Looks like there wasn’t much reason to do any recall at all, but with the mainstream media and the politicians in full attack mode, you have to be seen 'doing something.'
"If anything, attach the driver mats via clips, don’t panic, practice a couple of times how to put your automatic transmission in “Neutral”, an be on your way."
Runfromcheney :"I have always felt that this thing with Toyota was getting blown out of proportion by the media and the government as part of a smear to aid GM. The fact that everybody is tooting on the Corolla’s steering problems while I have heard nothing about the Cobalt, which suffers from the exact same problem, confirms this."
Dynamic88: "There is no need for conspiracy theories. The hearings are just a chance for polls to pontificate. The media is just piling on, as they usually do."
Just goes to show how paranoid folks can get..34 ALLEGED SUA deaths in 10 yrs. Keyword-Alleged..As you said 40k drive in crashes each year..Where are the folks on that???Ban alcohol-you prevent 25k of those deaths.Ban texting-save 5k deaths..Driver education can save thousands of deaths--like emergency training during UA,tire blowout,brake failure,,etc etc. :sick:
This is an absolute stupid waste of taxpayer money . We have become irrational ,phobic without any clear thinking. No wonder er are trailing the world now.
And this is not just about Toyota..Any car maker has pretty safe cars breaking and accelerating wise.. Reliability,quality are different.. But safety wise, any new car in the US is safe-whether it`s electronic or mechanical.A Toyota is as safe as a Ford,GM,Honda,dodge,Nissan,VW.MB,Lexus,BMW,Mercury, Mitsu,Suzuki,Audi,infiniti etc etc... This is just absurd mass hysteria.. :sick:
Are you saying police can stop a driver for nonuse of seat belts in the absence of another violation such as speeding? Last I checked this is not the case. If Ohio has changed this, my apologies -- maybe the current legislature has upgraded your so-called secondary law to primary status, effective later in the year. A link would be appreciated.
BTW, the Virginia Senate has passed a primary belt use law for several years running, only to have it shot down in the House of Delegates. Eventually, we'll get there. But my state does have a universal motorcycle helmet use law, unlike yours.
Seat belt use combined with modern airbag systems have been proven to be more than 50% effective in saving lives in frontal crashes. That is, your chances of surviving any given frontal crash are twice as great if you are belted and have frontal airbags. The seat belts alone actually provide most of the benefit. I do hope that anyone in here lambasting Toyota about sudden acceleration are not regular seat belt users. :surprise:
Sure it's better not to crash in the first place, which is why effective brakes, lighting, electronic controls, instrumentation, and visibility are also important. But some crashes are unavoidable, and in other cases people make simple mistakes (or worse of course).
I'll answer the rest of your post later.
delray....what's been said all along, "sticky pedals" aren't the cause of the UA issues Toyota has been experiencing. It's a little "smoke and mirrors" on Toyota's part to keep the bigger issue (electronics and software) off the table as far as a fix is concerned.
Even in Japan and China (where Mr Toyoda is heading next), the same story has evolved with Toyota....
In any market, though, Toyota is facing an uphill struggle to mollify both consumers and regulators.
In Japan, Toyota has recalled 223,000 vehicles for hybrid models, including the Prius, for braking problems. But the company has a major stake in its home market and as the world's biggest automaker, is viewed as a role model not just for automakers but for Japan as a whole.
Japanese Transport Minister Seiji Maehara, appearing at a nationwide broadcast news show Sunday, complained that Toyota's "corporate culture" reflected a reluctance to be forthright on recalls.
"The company is not taking the problem as seriously as it should," he said, saying the company's quality chief, Shinichi Sasaki, came to explain the problems to the ministry only after being asked to do so.
I find that cops sitting watching for seatbelts (shoulderbelts) no being worn is not a very effective use of their ability and skills for the public interest. A primary seatbelt law is way down on the need list. Agressive drivers and dangerous drivers are more important to me here in Ohio.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Toyota's enablers (LA Times)
I agree, just like the Explorer tire fiasco. Regardless of causes, and not understating the tragic loss of life, the numbers are extremely small. There have been incidents of UA on other makes as well. I hope the industry looks into the potential electronics problems, and I believe they are. However, nothing is 100% in life as the not too long ago Air France Airbus incident shows.
Check out all 6 videos. :P
http://www.toyota.com/recall/
If you don't punished the bad guys, they will repeat the bad behavior in the future.
Let's start with a very simple control in every electronics, the volume control. In the old products, the volume control is a simple potentiometer. If you turn it slowly, you can change volume in indefinitely small steps (fine adjustment). If you turn it really fast, you can bring the volume from min to max in one revolution and in less than half a second. That's the beauty of analog (mechanical) controls.
Now let's see how a digital volume control works. The volume knob turns a digital encoder which has certain contacts at certain position. Let's say the encoder has 8 contact positions in a revolution (12, 1:30, 3, ..., 9, 10:30 o'clock position). The CPU would check periodically where the current contact position is and compare with the past position to determine which direction the volume knob is turning and how many steps; the CPU would change volume accordingly.
You can see two major problems of digital volume already:
1) Fine adjustment vs fast change: if you want to make very fine changes in volume, say 8000 steps from min to max. Then the knob needs to be turned 1000 revolutions for that! If you want to make less total turns to one revolution like the analog volume, then you only have 8 steps!
2) Rotation direction and speed detection: let's say the CPU checks the encoder position 4 times a second (CPU needs to multi-tasking with many controls). The 1st time the CPU found the contact is at 12 o'clock; 2nd time is at 9 o'clock. Then the CPU assumes the volume is turned down by 2 clicks. But the user may have turned th knob up (clockwise) very fast from 12 o'clock to 9 o'clock between the 1/4 second CPU checks the encoder! You can see that the CPU could easily and totally mis-interprets the user action in the opposite way and wrong number of steps!
These are the 2 exact challenges when designing the car's pedal, steering and brake into digital (electronics) controls.
Camry unintended acceleration is due to the CPU mis-interpret the driver pedal action in the wrong direction.
Prius brake hesitation is due to the CPU not checking the brake encoder (sensor) fast enough.
Corolla steering problem is due to not enough fine step in the steering encoder (sensor).
I challenge Toyota engineers to post their solution to the problems I listed above in their car design.
Even Toyota's home country is saying that they're hiding important safety information from the public.
I mean, I guess Toyota can keep going down this same rode if they want. But, it all points to the same thing....Toyota is fighting tooth and nail not to have to recall 3x-4x, maybe even 5x the 8.5 million vehicles they've already recalled. NHTSA's going to come out with their own report after they finish with their own research into Toyota's electronics/software problems.
It sounds like the Japanese gov't is going to do something similar. Who knows what the Chinese will do, given their not so friendly past with Japan. We haven't even begun to address European countries responses.
I hope you're just trying to make a point and aren't that callous. Many (most?) of the 10,000 aren't killed by "ignorance."
What about a man or woman who puts in a hard day at the office (not necessarily of their own volition) and falls asleep while driving home and dies? What of the somewhat inexperienced teenage driver on a road for the first time who goes just a little too fast around an unmarked curve at night and loses it? What of a young mother who gets distracted by sound of her baby crying out suddenly in the back seat? What of the older person who misjudges the speed of an oncoming car and makes a left turn across the path of said car? They all deserve to die?
Or to put it another way, to save the 34 killed by Toyota alleged sudden acceleration, you'd rather see 340,000 people sacrificed on our highways for the sin of ignorance?
I wouldn't want to be related to you if such were the case.
Corporations settle out of court with litigants all the time, and the plaintiffs are sworn to secrecy. This is perfectly legal under our justice system. I don't like it myself personally, but that is the way it is. I fail to see why the Toyota settlements are different.
I can't wait to see if this Biller is a loose cannon or not.
It your assumption that Toyota has an inherent lack of safety in its controls and electronics -- where is the solid evidence? No, you want to believe Toyotas are junk.
My point about motorcycle helmets is they should NOT be a matter of choice. We mandate seat belt use, the same should be true for helmet use. I have no choice to pay extra in insurance premiums or Medicaid taxes to pay for brain injuries that may have been avoided if an injured motorcyclist wore a helmet. Besides if saving lives from alleged sudden acceleration is important, than so is the case for saving motorcyclists' lives when their heads hit the pavement.
Who IS being hypocritical here? All lives are important, not just the relative few who have experienced alleged sudden acceleration and died because of it.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
I want to hear from toyota's engineers, preferably US citizens working here, that testify under oath what they have found through 9 years of searching or not searching for the flaws causing the runaways.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
We already have mandatory seat belt requirements. Don't know about where you live, but the seat belt law is plastered everywhere with the tag line "click it or ticket".
I'm glad you believe in mandatory motorcycle helmet use laws. And I'm sure well over 90% of Edmunds' posters wear seat belts when in a car.
My point which still doesn't seem to be getting through is the number of deaths alleged to have been caused by Toyota sudden acceleration is small, at 34. I'm not saying these deaths aren't important. Every death is.
However, even if this number were an order of magnitude greater (340), this pales in comparison to the number of lives that could be saved if all 50 states had mandatory helmet use laws and primary seat belt use laws. The research is quite clear on this.
Right now, 18 states have secondary belt use laws, including Ohio, according to this map dated February 2010. This means that police must stop motorists for other violations before enforcing these laws. New Hampshire has no belt use law at all for adults.
And imid, primary belt use laws don't mean police have to wait in hiding to stop people not wearing belts. Compliance goes up just with the fact of having such a law and widely publicizing it.
Only 20 states plus DC have universal mandatory helmet use laws, as shown in this map.
Again, just taking these 2 steps would save a lot more lives than are allegedly being lost to Toyota sudden acceleration crashes. And having sudden acceleration doesn't mean you're doomed -- you can survive by thinking straight. Not that I believe that such a defect should be allowed in any car, but we will never have 100% defect-free cars. A look at the annual list of recalls shows this very well.
And seriously, iluv, avoiding Toyotas on the road? Your overall odds of getting hit by lightning are probably greater than getting hit by a suddenly accelerating Toyota.
They're going to be forced, one way or another, to do just that, IMHO!. It comes down to how far they're going to have to go back, and the model years that they're going to have to do the install on. If NHTSA, or China, or Japan, or China, makes them go all the way back to MY 2000, that's going to be a huge bill, since they're going to not only going to do a reflash. Toyota will also have to replace the ECUs or EPROMs to accept the reflash. MY 2004 going forward, perhaps they can get away with just doing a reflash, and nothing more.
If I were them, I'd be proactive and reflash 2004s and up. At least that way, they can say they were proactive and at least semi-cooperative. If they choose to go down the path they're going now, gov'ts will probably be prone to be more punitive in the actions they take against Toyota.
As far as seat belt and motorcycle helmet laws, that's a discussion for a different thread.
34 people are alleged to have died from Toyota sudden acceleration since 1999 or 2000. That's about 3 lives per year on average. And Sean Kane is the dubious source of those numbers.
We're having congressional hearings and media hysteria over these 3 deaths per year, but what about the remaining 37,258 people killed in 2008 and the 100 killed every single day even as I type this?
We have our priorities upside down.
Wow. Bet they're not small to the relatives and family of the 34. It's not like the parent chose to drive with no seatbelt on. It's not like the motorcycle rider thought no helmet was a cool way to ride.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
In the other corner, we have gagrice who shamelessly said that all those thousands who died of their own fault do not have his sympathy. Maybe you should address your posts to him.
That's good. So the 340,000 other deaths are something to work on as well as the toyota risk in the cars still sitting in garages around the country, and world.
Chasing seat belt users to make them use the belts is a waste of police time other than they might find no insurance, drinking, drugs, no license, false registration on the vehicle, when they make the traffic stops.
No motorcycle helmet is Darwin's way of improving the species.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
It is not a waste of time,,,seat belt use increases chances of crash survival. You do wear yours, right?
You imply that I'm insensitive, but then you invoke Darwin. Despicable. You ought to be ashamed. Tell the decedents' relatives that their deaths were due to Darwinian selection. :mad:
And BTW, the world death toll from traffic crashes is 1.2 MILLION.
Your ideological approach is diametrically opposed to mine. I do not believe government has the right to save me from myself. It is their to protect me from others. In this case it is the duty of the NHTSA to protect the US consumer from Toyota's lies and arrogance. It is there to make sure beyond a reasonable doubt that their DBW systems are fail safe.
What you have ignored through out this fiasco that Toyota has brought on itself is the fact that the complaints of UA started when Toyota went to DBW. They are way out in the lead on complaints compared to all other auto makers combined. The Feds have one thing they should do. Tell Toyota to get their DBW systems working safely or quit selling cars in the USA. That includes Throttle, Brakes and Steering.
I recall well the hell Audi went through with their own sudden acceleration scandal. Remember the teary-eyed minister's wife whose "runaway" Audi pinned her young son against the garage wall, killing him? Clarence Ditlow (Sean Kane's role model) was jumping up and down in outrage. We all know how the situation ended.