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I'm thinking back to before those cars even existed, back in the sixties.
The majority of the cars on the road here were built here, by the big three, and the average sedan then was much bigger than the average sedan now (which usually isn't built by the big three any more).
However, compared to European models they were HUGE! They did have a good reputation there though, both for reliability, longevity, and comfort.
Slow turning American V8s were admired for their ability to go 100,000 miles before needing an engine overhaul, whereas the average European engine would probably have needed reboring two or three times during that period.
Sounds like collution to me. And this could mean that all the favourable ratings in consumer mags, jd power etc may not even come close to reality. Just a result of influence peddling ?
No collusion, just more fodder for the conspiracy theorists. All automakers run their own internal crash tests, both to ensure compliance with federal standards and to see how their products would rate under the IIHS testing regimen. They will then improve the cars if they have the funds and the desire to up their test ratings. (Of course by law, their cars must meet the minimum federal standards.)
And in fact, both the Scion xB and Toyota Corolla were named 2010 Top Safety Picks by the IIHS just yesterday. The Tacoma fell short because of only a Marginal rollover (roof strength) rating.
If they did it on the rollover issues with their vehicles and the subsequent investigation, that brings up the very real possibility that they've done the same with UA issues, braking issues, etc. That's a rabbit hole they really didn't want to go down. But, one that they've certainly led themselves down.
More troubling is the attitude that they believe they're above U.S. regulations and law.
This investigation is entering a new phase. One that's much broader in scope than just getting to the real cause of UA in Toyota vehicles. Investigators (SEC, NHTSA, Congress are just 3 bodies that are looking into Toyota's activities) are looking at the potential safety coverups, too.
Really? You must have been hard at work in the isolated Alaska oil fields!
Exactly. And it's still 56 over 10-11 years, compared to 37,261 US traffic deaths in 2008 alone. Who is the source of those numbers -- The LA Times courtesy of Sean Kane? What if some of the 56 cases were due to pedal misapplication (driver error), which Kane goes out his way to deny?
NHTSA definitely needs to delve deeper into these cases, at least to the extent possible.
The Europeans until rather recently had imposed rather strict quotas on imported cars, to protect their own automakers. Plus Europeans seem to prefer more driving involvement from their cars than Americans, who as a whole lean more toward the "living room on wheels" concept. So Toyota's relative lack of presence in Europe is understandable in this light. BTW, have you seen how poorly American-built Cadillacs and Chrysler products sell in Europe?
Mine have been very reliable from the "semi-old" days of 04 and 05.
VW got in on the ground floor way back in the 80s in China, establishing joint ventures with Chinese automakers. Their Santana model (based an older-design Passat) was a best seller for years. Despite all your ranting about Toyota, I see they are solid #4, within spitting distance of Honda and Hyundai.
But, if a person had been convicted, and there aren't any extenuating circumstances, then I would think it's fair to reopen cases where their car was out of control based on UA, braking or other Toyota maladies that can be reinvestigated based on what we've seen and heard so far.
Hey, we agree on something! I'm getting into the older group (still under 60 though), and you're right. Our experience and level-headedness more than make up for allegedly declining reflexes and physical dexterity compared to those young hotshot (and hot-headed) male drivers. :P How do I know this: I used to be one of them!
How is that any worse than Toyota denying it could be their electronics? I cannot help thinking of that poor guy sitting in a MN prison. When he may have told the truth about his Camry CC making the car speed up and slam into the other car. Toyota denied any vehicle fault. The Jury could not believe Toyota would build a car that would fail. That has been a real problem in my eyes. The blind perception that Toyota was above building cars that could have such issues as UA. Now the Whole World is seeing the Truth about the lies and secrets that Toyota has been able to cover up.
Your approach is not at all balanced. Your pro Toyota stance is just as bad as Kane's anti Toyota stance. Most of US are in the middle wanting to find out the truth. If what has come out so far about Toyota's deception is true, the Feds should "Hang em' High".
GM has been a pioneer on EDRs. Did you know when they offered frontal airbags on 1974-76 production cars, even these cars had rudimentary black boxes? Some ACLU types (and chronic traffic violators) don't like them because they can "tattle" on the driver in the event of a crash.
Toyota may be later to the party, but until very recently the Germans and Koreans have been hesitant to put EDRs in their vehicles.
Couldn't have said it better myself, thanks!
Funny you should mention number 4. That is where Toyota now sits in the US market. Behind GM, Ford and Honda.
It's pro-Toyota, yes, but also pro-science, pro-skeptical, and anti-hysterical.
If the guy in jail really did experience sudden acceleration not of his own volition, there are plenty of crash investigators out there willing to serve as expert witnesses. Sean Kane could have referred some to him...
For one month, January. I don't pay much attention to monthly numbers, but prefer to use year-to-date, especially later in the year. Same concept as not obsessing over the daily ups and downs of the stock market -- you invest for the long term.
February 25, 2010
ASSOCIATED PRESS
LINO LAKES, Minn. -- Ever since his 1996 Toyota Camry shot up an interstate ramp, plowing into the back of an Oldsmobile in a horrific crash that killed three people, Koua Fong Lee insisted he had done everything he could to stop the car.
A jury didn't believe him, and a judge sentenced him to eight years in prison. But now, new revelations of safety problems with Toyotas have Lee pressing to get his case reopened and his freedom restored. Relatives of the victims -- who condemned Lee at his sentencing three years ago -- now believe he is innocent and are planning to sue Toyota. The prosecutor who sent Lee to prison said he thinks the case merits another look.
Lee's Camry wasn't among those subject to Toyota's recent safety recalls, but Toyota did recall some 1996 Camrys for defective cruise controls that could cause sudden acceleration.
Lee's current attorney, Brent Schafer, said several '96 Camry owners whose cars were not in the recall have filed sudden-acceleration complaints with federal regulators.
Bob Hilliard, a Texas attorney, is preparing a lawsuit by the victims in the Lee crash. Hilliard said other federal complaints suggest a defect more widespread than recalled cruise controls -- something with engine control modules that could extend to other Toyota makes and model years.
http://www.suntimes.com/news/nation/2069969,toyota-defense-jailed-man-release-02- 2510.article
In fairness, pretty sketchy on the details of this particular person's case, though.
If you are stomping twice on the brakes in a vehicle with ABS you are comitting driver/human error (in trying to stop a runaway vehicle, or any other circumstance where you need to stop fast in an emergency), and the fault is then NOT on Toyota, but on the driver.
Driver's should be able to handle simple mechanical or electrical malfunctions. Malfunctions happen all the time. When the deer runs onto the road right in front of a fast moving vehicle, is not the deer malfunctioning?
When an idiot has an engine blow in the fog and decides not to use their momentum to pull over off the road but instead stop in a moving lane on the highway, is that not driver error causing people "supposedly driving too fast for conditions" to crash? I blame the FIRST & SECOND (if applicable) for multi-vehicle pileups on the freeway/highway in foggy/low visibility conditions. They are the one's responsible for the "emergency" in the first place.
Ouch, at least it happened at the resort so you still get bragging rights I guess. My wife quit skiing - ACL 2 years ago and just passed her one year anniversary of her nasty tib-fib break (still healing).
I'm getting whiffs of backlash against the media frenzy, and not just from posts on here.
All the upcoming incentives reports are even getting me a little interested, but my old clunkers still won't die. But I bet a lot of people who are bashing Toyota today will be driving one in a couple of months.
Oh, and what 210delray said. Think of your morning commute where you have two hard stops in quick succession because of other idiot drivers around you.
You know the old saying, "Money talks and bull(crap) walks!"
It is that false perception so many people, including many on this website have, that Toyota is above reproach. That false perception is falling like a rock back to earth. When such a large portion of the population feels they have been duped, hysteria is the natural result. Toyota has done NOTHING to date that would give people reason to not be in a panic about their cars.
And folks have suggesting the 10yr/1o0k powertrain warr.. I would much prefer a 7yr/100k b2b warr like when you can buy a Toyota 7yr/100k extended warr which extends the 3yr/36yr warr. A 7yr/100k pretty close to b2b warr will really seal the deal in my opinion.. :P
I could argue that since studies show the fastest drivers get in the least accidents, and the slower drivers get in the most accidents, that pulling people over for speeding is a waste of police time and resources, especially since most speed limits are underposted by 5 to 15 MPH.
Studies also show that raising the speed limit does not correlate to people driving faster afterward. The average speed of the roadway will remain whatever people are comfortable driving as they determine it for themselves (such as having gone 10 over the speed limit 1,000 times prior without having a problem). This has been done before, and the average speed did not increase where speed limits were raised; it simply made more people "lawful and in compliance" with the speed limit.
What Police really need to do is crack down on the driver's causing accidents on our roadways.
I'll say this, I won't set foot anywhere near a Toyota store, for any reason, regardless of incentives, until they do what's right. Further, I always find myself dropping behind Camrys, Corollas, etc whenever I see them on the road. I don't want to be in front of them.
But, you are right. There are some who only look at the incentives and think...."but, it's such a good deal". and will discount any sort of safety concerns.
Show me ONE study not bought and paid for by Insurance companies that shows violators of traffic laws are in any way correlated to causers of crashes. I believe traffic violations have little relation to accidents caused by said driver, at least with the current way our traffic laws are enforced, which is with an emphasis on speeding tickets that are best for revenue generation more than anything else.
I don't believe it's chronic violators that are against car black boxes, but actually American's who believe in our Constitution, Bill of Rights, and right to privacy and private property. I believe less gov't intrusion and spying into our private lives is better for us all in the long run. First, its black boxes in your car, next it's camera's in your bedroom to make sure you don't commit any illegal sexual acts in certain conservative states.
I think extending the warranty is an excellent idea too. That would really pressure Ford to follow though.
I'm a bit bugged by Toyota's relatively short oil change interval - the trend is toward 10,000 mile intervals, but Toyota has that gel experience in their history.
On the way to IKEA somewhere near you on I-75 I saw an FJ toyota coming up fast in lane #3, so I got over to let him/her run on through, just in case. (I was going 7 over the limit,)
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
That "gel experience"... is that PC for sludge?!!!
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Since the guy was Asian, I think stereotypes dictate that he was more likely at Fault in the accident then Toytota!
NHTSA CAMPAIGN ID Number: 96E001000
Summary:
THESE CRUISE CONTROL SYSTEMS FAIL TO HOLD THE SPEED SET BY THE DRIVER AND CAN ACCELERATE ABOVE THE INTENDED SET SPEED.
Consequence:
UNINTENDED ACCELERATION CAN INCREASE THE POTENTIAL FOR A VEHICLE ACCIDENT.
Remedy:
DEALERS WILL REPLACE THESE CRUISE CONTROL ASSEMBLIES.
Notes:
SYSTEM: FUEL; THROTTLE LINKAGES AND CONTROL EQUIPMENT DESCRIPTION: AFTERMARKET CRUISE CONTROL SYSTEM INSTALLED ON CERTAIN TOYOTA PASSENGER VEHICLES AND LIGHT DUTY PICKUP TRUCKS SOLD IN TOYOTA DEALERSHIPS SERVICED BY SOUTHEAST TOYOTA AND GULF STATES TOYOTA DISTRIBUTORS. THE DEALERS WOULD BE LOCATED IN THE FOLLOWING STATES: FLORIDA, ALABAMA, GEORGIA, NORTH CAROLINA, AND SOUTH CAROLINA FOR SOUTHEAST TOYOTA AND TEXAS, OKLAHOMA, MISSISSIPPI, LOUISIANA, AND ARKANSAS FOR GULF STATES TOYOTA. NOTE: OWNERS WHO TAKE THEIR VEHICLES TO AN AUTHORIZED DEALER IN THESE AFFECTED STATES, ON AN AGREED UPON SERVICE DATE AND DO NOT RECEIVE THE FREE REMEDY WITHIN A REASONABLE TIME SHOULD CONTACT ROSTRA AT 1-910-276-4853 OR TOYOTA AT 1-800-331-4331. ALSO CONTACT THE NATIONAL HIGHWAY TRAFFIC SAFETY ADMINISTRATION'S AUTO SAFETY HOTLINE AT 1-800-424-9393.
The facts in the case. The defendant was a new immigrant the year before the accident in 2005. That means he bought the Camry Used. Who knows where it was originally sold? If it had been moved around a lot it could have ended up in MN. Question did the defense spend any time researching the vehicle? My guess he was court appointed with more cases than could be handled fairly. It is possible the previous owner had UA with it and dumped it on a poor immigrant.
I'm somewhere in the middle between you and 210delray on this.
If you believe what your wrote, then you should also allow us as Americans, to refuse you emergency medical treatment (to save taxpayer and insurance monies) when you bust your head open riding without a helmit or driving without a seat belt. After all, why should we let one person cost the whole of us money?
Also, the problem is that people being stupid about their own safety often causes a problem with other innocent drivers on the road. I don't know the statisitics, but I bet a large number of all accidents are multi-vehicle (2 cars or more) accidents. That means that someone might need to be saved by the gov't from themselves so that they don't take out others with them.
On the other hand, I have NO sympathy for people causing accidents that are AT-Fault in those accidents, because I strongly believe the vast majority of accidents were completely and entirely avoidable.
It's just been changed to one year or 10K miles, whichever comes first, for models requiring 0W-20 synthetic oil (like the 2010 Camry 4-cylinder).
For everyday run-of-the-mill crashes, multi-car collisions are far more common (think of the number of rear-enders you've seen). But for fatal crashes, single-vehicle crashes make up about half the total.
In other words, the more serious the crash, the more likely the crash is to involve one vehicle.
So your willing to throw out several Constitutional rights so that Police are better able to stop drunk drivers? Be careful when you give up rights. The ends often cannot justify the means.
Presumption of innocense? Right to not be unreasonably searched and seizured?
Not everyone leaving a bar is drunk; perhaps they are the designated driver?
I do agree though, enforcement against drunk driving could be better, the problem is all the cops do is go after revenue generation, which is more effectively done with speeding and redlight (usually failure to completely stop right-turn red light) tickets.
Those are almost always harmless and inane violations, and "safety" doesn't even always have to be a "factor" in the violation.
I don't believe that any automaker is above reproach, if there really is a serious safety issue.
When such a large portion of the population feels they have been duped, hysteria is the natural result. Toyota has done NOTHING to date that would give people reason to not be in a panic about their cars.
This is where I have a problem. There's no reason for hysteria or panic. Get the recalls done ASAP. Those of us with Toyotas (I'm looking at 4 out my office window as I type this) are not panicking. And one is a 2009 Corolla subject to both recalls. Are you panicking about your Sequoia?
When I moved there, it was all farm land. Thought to myself "no way sprawl will go this far out". 15 years later, I couldn't have been more wrong.
Next time you're up that way, one of my favorite restaurants is close. It's called "Jags". Anybody in the area can point you to it. Check it out if you get the chance.
Why not all 1996 toyotas?
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
We had lunch in IKEA Cafe. I see Jags on GoogleEarth. We ate at the White House several years back. Love the Mercedes show. Never cared much for Volvo after they faked a commercial to try to improve their image as a safer car than other cars. That concept sort of applies to knowledge coming out slowly about toyota.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
http://www.cardealerreviews.org/?p=253027
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Toyota has EARNED that reputation of being a GODLY automaker here in the US. They have earned it directly with their customers, AND the media. The reputation didn't come from the media, it came from customers telling the media whats what.
There are many problems with your post.
German cars do well in Europe because they actually allow you to drive like an adult there and there is the Autobahn with limitless speeds to travel on. Toyota's don't do to well where handling and speed are of importance.
American cars may do better in Europe and China because I've read that they actually make better cars in other countries. Even supposedly "identical" or copycat models released in the US are often "dumbed down" and made cheaper, of lower quality, and lower caliber than in those outside countries. There is evidence that Detroit has purposely made cars for the US that are lesser than the cars they make for others elsewhere.
I suppose if your reputation is already shot in the US, why bother trying to improve it? But in other countries, the US companies had a clean slate and maybe didn't want to tarnish their reputation over there.
You can get more information about SET at:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southeast_Toyota_Distributors
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
All US big 3 saw their sales increased in Feb; Ford surged by 43%, GM improved by 12%; Chrysler sold a few hundreds more.
Ford outsold GM in Feb!
GM had 8 brands one year ago and only 4 core brands now. The 4 core brands sales jumped 32%.
Honda gained 13%.