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If existing legislation allows police to question someone leaving a known drug house or area on the basis that there's a reasonable suspicion a drug related offence might have been committed, why is it unreasonable to apply the same reasoning to someone driving away from a bar?
I think it has more to do with society's acceptance of alcohol over recreational drugs than the loss of constitutional rights.
I don't have any problem with someone enjoying alcohol, or getting high for that matter, as long as they don't drive (or do a number of other things that common sense dictates) while under the influence of same.
http://www.antony-anderson.com/Cruise/6-freq.htm
So many theories, why not one more?
I exaggerate a tad....
The brand new Ford Fiesta jumped to No. 2 in just one year in Europe thanks to the wonderful handling, looks and fuel economy. It will come to the US showrooms in a few months and I expect it to kick some Japanese butts.
1) Ford: 142,285
2) GM: 141,951
3) Toyota: 100,027
4) Chrysler: 84,449
5) Honda: 80,671
Wonder what Obama thinks about this :P
And what of suggestions that there may be more to Toyota's unintended acceleration woes than faulty floor mats and gas pedals? "We want to see if anything bubbles up from the Senate hearings... A lot of people pointed to the electronics, but I don't see anything at the moment that points to an electronic issue."
link title
In fact it's been on the rise since the news first broke of the recall back on February 22nd...
And what of suggestions that there may be more to Toyota's unintended acceleration woes than faulty floor mats and gas pedals? "We want to see if anything bubbles up from the Senate hearings... A lot of people pointed to the electronics, but I don't see anything at the moment that points to an electronic issue."
This I'd surmise is the reason the IIHS put the Corolla, one of the recalled models, on its Top Safety Pick list yesterday. The same was true of the Volvo XC60 late last year, after Volvo identified a fix and issued a recall for seat belts that could come loose in certain side impacts.
The Japanese automaker, embroiled in a recall fiasco, says it sold 12,693 Toyota and Lexus cars, trucks and SUVs last month – up 25.2 percent from a year ago. That included 902 Lexus vehicles, up 26.2 percent from 2009, to establish a best ever February for the luxury brand. Sales of 11,791 Toyotas were up 25.2 percent versus the same month last year.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
Unintended Acceleration - Find the Cause
Now that I've asked folks to stop talking about alcohol, I can't resist to point out that drinking and then driving remains legal in all of USA, as long as one isn't over the legal limit, or exhibiting impairment.
So the simple fact of leaving a bar after drinking, and then getting into a car and driving, is NOT probable cause for a peace officer to detain the driver, UNLESS the driver exhibits impairment somehow. (You can believe me because I watch lots of TV lawyer shows!)
and finally, kudos to andres3 for making some of the most intelligent postings I've seen in a while!
Curious as to how much money Toyota has spent in PR and damage control in the last few weeks since the Congressional hearings. Everywhere I look I'm seeing ads pushing Toyota's agenda. Yet, no money spent on getting Dr. Gilbert to help them.
Kind of tells me where their priorities are. :sick:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KoIIT0WJS4s
...and I stayed at a Holiday Inn last night! :P
And now that Toyota finds itself caught in this swirling maelstrom of out-of-control Washington D.C.-fueled hysteria - which admittedly has been compounded by its own hubris, bad or non-decisions and its failure to get out in front of this image-wrangling thing – I feel almost the same way I did back when the Detroit executives were hammered, pummeled, humiliated and generally dumped upon by a posse of wimps and twerps masquerading as our country’s Best and Brightest.
To say that Washington politicos thrive on the circus of it all above absolutely everything else - including objectivity, facts, etc., - is stating the obvious. When they comfortably operate, connive and cajole in the relative obscurity of their own friendly confines, I imagine it’s real nice to get out in front of “the people” and flex their muscles now and again. After all, when the majority of your waking hours are devoted to justifying your existence, how could you possibly let the intoxicating opportunity for some good old-fashioned self-righteous chest-thumping pass you by? Especially when it comes at the expense of corporate America, er, Japan?
The Washington political establishment is frighteningly aligned with the mentality that drives the geniuses down in Daytona Beach who rule over NASCAR, as in, it’s all about “The Show.” Start with some controversy, mix in some pathos, work the David (the “little people”) vs. Goliath (the “evil” corporate empire) angle, and voila! Ladies and gents, you’ve got yourself a show!
Toyota has trouble alright, with a capital “T” and that means that a lot of ill-qualified hacks in Washington are going to step up to the microphone and expound on all the things they don’t know, or understand, or even have the faintest of clues as to what they’re talking about, for that matter.
But the grandstanding and public hand-wringing in Washington is not going to solve anything. Not even close. Oh, it will help our attention-starved politicians get their TV on, but that’s about it.
The harsh reality for Toyota is that it went too far overboard in striving to become the biggest, baddest car company on earth. And in the course of their quest they literally abandoned damn near everything that got them to the point of being a true corporate juggernaut to begin with.
The Toyota “Way”? It went right out the window as soon as they started planning new assembly facilities at the same time they were still finishing plants that weren’t even up and running yet. The “old” Toyota would never do that. The “old” Toyota would take their sweet time in making sure that a new facility was every bit as focused and dialed-in as their best facilities. If it wasn’t, it simply didn’t open until it was.
But the “new” Toyota started skipping steps and compressing timelines. And the details started slipping through the cracks. People – engineers, managers, manufacturing types – were schooled in the Toyota Way, but in the company’s breakneck, accelerated pace to eclipse GM as the world’s largest automaker it didn’t sink in. There simply wasn’t enough time to let it sink in either.
Communication broke down, both internally in Japan and externally to the troops in the U.S. The Toyota Way wasn’t the focus of the organization any longer. Classic Toyota descriptors such as “quality,” “reliability” and “durability” were replaced with words like “units,” “volume,” “production plan acceleration” and “domination” of markets.
Pretty soon the citizens of the “new” Toyota outnumbered the experienced and historically reverent “old” citizens of Toyota, and the whole thing veered off track in a horrendous train wreck now being picked over by our illustrious representatives in Washington.
Yes, Toyota brought this down upon itself. They made mistakes, and then they made more mistakes when they compounded their original mistakes by their calculated obfuscation, their corporate insularity - their utter lack of understanding and grasp of this image “thing” as it applies to the media-saturated U.S. market and how their stonewalling PR tactic wasn’t a tactic at all but a self-destructive act of dumping fuel on the fire - and finally their almost manic unwillingness to realize that the vacuum they are comfortable operating in isn’t necessarily one that will fly in the wider world.
Does Toyota have a problem with their electrical systems? I don’t even pretend to know. But it’s too bad that no one and I mean no one in Washington - whether they are senators, congress persons, self-proclaimed “expert” witnesses or anyone else for that matter - can admit that they don’t know either.
And all the table-pounding, strident “yes” or “no” questions, mealy-mouthed soliloquies, teary story-telling, blatant political pontificating and nonsensical mutterings aren’t going to get us any closer to finding out, either.
Oh, Toyota’s got trouble alright Trouble with a capital “T.”
But a witch hunt is a witch hunt, in any language.
That’s all I got for this week.
I'm very surprised that Ford took the top spot over GM, though I am really happy to see it! I have much more respect and confidence in Ford then I do GM right now, though GM's positive sales increases thus far have given me some hope they too will be in Ford's position in a few more years to come! I have to say, out of the TWO domestic automakers, I don't care what anyone tells me, maybe its naive but, Chrysler is dead to me!! After taking the billions upon billions of our hard earned dollars and then go through bankruptcy and still to be struggling like they are and to sell only a few hundred more than last month, to heck with them!!
sorry but anyway, as I was saying, of the two domestic automakers, Ford has really impressed me of late and like I said in the mid-size forum, the Fusion I test drove was most impressive!! I'm glad to see their forsight and restructuring is paying off for them because like I have always said competition is good; even though I prefer the Japanese automakers myself, I like to see Ford and GM do good and produce nice competitive products because in turn that puts pressure on Toyota, Honda, Nissan, and Hyundai to step up their games and make sure they can compete as well!
Heard on the CBS Evening News Tonight that GM has to recall over 1.3 million vehicles over steering problems, what are they trying to do catch up and surpass Toyota?? lol!!! j/k :P
What happened to Lexus? Outsold AGAIN by Mercedes-Benz???
And to make matters worse, Toyota models not even involved with the recalls were down?????
TOYOTA RETAIL SALES
while they had the expected drop they did, it is by no means absolutely terrible as you and others on here and auto expert original feared it would be and are trying to make it out to be!
of course sales of models not involved in the recalls were down! that's a no brainer because the fear the media, comedians, and Congressional hearings put into the general public with Toyota under the spot light caused people to not even consider Toyota or their other models not under the recall might be affected or possibly unsafe so people didn't even go into their Toyota dealerships!
I'm no Toyota fan by any means of the imagination but lets not dramatize and be melodramatic with their sales drops; it was expected and wasn't as bad as initially assumed it would be back when we all were speculating a month ago!
I'm sure all of you remember that sales at Chrysler, GM, and Ford were not very good while their CEOs and companies were under the spot light at their Congressional hearing back in 2008 and when there was talk about bankruptcy; not many people wanted to buy a GM or Chrysler product at the time because they were not sure if the company was even going to be around or not!
just trying to put this all into perspective and play devil's advocate!
it will be interesting to see if Congress or the media makes a big deal out of the 1.3 million or more vehicles recalled by GM for steering problems!
Naaaah.
I saw a clip today whining about the plight of toyota dealers. It was about how hard they have it because of the parent company.
Bull dookey. The dealers were part and parcel in the pricing and the coverup of various problems. To wit the many reports here of dealers not noting that people complained about uncontrolled acceleration; therefore there's no record of it. If dealers had been doing their jobs... how much sooner would this have been noted by NHTSA?
Were these people complaining as toyota used their aids and media friends to sell cars based on their perfect reliability from the past--when the US brand dealers were hurting? Not a word. As some say: What goes around comes around.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
And that from one of the "in house" toyota partly owned companies that are suppliers. Was it intentional on toyota's part to supply inferior electric motors for the steering drive in GM's cars?
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
anyway, just to put Toyota's sales and slump into more perspective, they actually had increase sales outside the US despite all the recalls, so lets not go crazy and make this stuff with Toyota more ridiculous then it is, check this out!!
http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSN0214608020100302?type=marketsNews
It's called sarcasm.
>finish product so they are ultimately responsible for the problems!!
Then why was toyota trying to fast market CTS as being at fault for the minor problem of their deteriorated pedal plastic that toyoyta specified for their pedals?
Toyota is responsible.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Toyota launches extensive incentives program to shore up sales
03/02/2010, 6:04 PM
By Mark Kleis
Toyota has just announced a slew of new incentives – dubbed the ‘March Sales Event,’ which the automaker says will be the most far-reaching sales program in its history. Toyota’s sales program includes special interest rates, low lease rates and complimentary maintenance programs.
As Toyota’s worst February sales figures in over a decade are released, the automaker is wasting no time to fire back with a plan to shore up dipping sales and consumer confidence.
Historically, Toyota has relied on strong consumer confidence due to top safety ratings, leading fuel economy and strong resale values in order to charge a premium for its vehicles, while still being a sales leader. Other automakers – especially domestic name plates – were caught in a catch 22 in which they offered greater incentives in order to boost sales, but at the cost of reduced resale values for their customers.
Although the increased incentives helped domestic automakers temporarily boost sales in the mid-2000s, the eventual collapse of two brands led to bankruptcy, and the near collapse of the third resulted in the need for drastic action and the accumulation of debt.
Toyota’s recent negative publicity stemming from multiple recalls totaling over 8.5 million vehicles worldwide, as well as the subsequent congressional hearings, has put a chink in Toyota’s previously shining armor. Toyota reported a 10.3 percent decrease of sales in the U.S., with Lexus reporting just a 4.5 percent increase compared to February sales for 2009. Other automakers averaged increases over 20 percent for the month – with Ford coming out on top with a group sales increase of 43 percent.
Ahh, the term “History repeats itself” works well here.
This is as much of a result of Toyota’s success as it is the recalls. To boost sales, they look towards rebates and incentives that do what? Hurt Toyota in the long term. To survive they need to do it, and boost corporate fleet leases (where my company comes in) and offer more incentives for companies to lease Toyotas – and rental fleets too. What does all this do? Well, look at GM and Ford’s resale values in the past 15 years. Causing further declines in new car purchases by consumers due to lower resale values meaning even more rebates. I thought the Japanese were better than this – guess not!
What happened to Toyota???
Even Mitsubishi did better than Toyota :shades:
Buick 47.21
Ford 46.30
Volvo 38.29
Subaru 38
Audi 33.59
Volkswagen 32.62
Chevrolet 32.35
Nissan 31.86
Cadillac 31.76
GMC 26.24
Mercury 24.49
Lincoln 18.60
Land Rover 17.93
Acura 16.71
BMW 16.34
Honda 12.23
Hyundai 11.05
Infiniti 10.72
Chrysler 9.06
Kia 8.97
Dodge 8.36
Jeep 6.37
Lexus 5.18
Mercedes-Benz 4.73
Mazda 3.98
Mini 1.59
Porsche 0.86 1
Jaguar -3.79
Mitsubishi -10.37
Toyota -10.61 :lemon:
Ram -30.63
Toyota sold better than I expected for February. The real surprise is the only SUV that was in positive territory for February and the YTD, the 4Runner. The same vehicle the Toyota salesman said was a dead rig. Body on frame SUVs were going the way of the dinosaurs. They are up 55% for Feb and 22% for the YTD. Long live REAL SUVs. :P
There are some smart vehicle buyers out there. I think that vehicle still runs on the older style tried and tested platform.
Where outside the US? Canada's auto market is so small it's negligible (no offense to the Canadians).
Toyota is out of top 10 in both China and Europe.
I think so too.
But on the other hand, the reference of Feb last year was a really crappy month. Even though Toyota's 9% drop from last year does not look so bad, the rest of the industry increased by 13% over a year ago. So Toyota actually falls off the pack by 22%; that's the double digit.
Compare to Ford, Toyota was ahead of Ford last year and now behind Ford by 40%.
If Toyota's fall continues for a few more month like this, they will be No. 4, 5 or 6 pretty soon. Remember Chrysler is only 15k cars behind Toyota; Honda is only 18k behind.
plug in mower
What if they only had one drink, or what if they are the designated driver and haven't had anything to drink in that bar? Sounds like unnecessary harrassment by the police to me. I think exisiting legislation and how far the police can STRETCH the meaning of REASONABLE search and seizure is in contention right now and very much arguable. Some think the ends justify the means, I believe the smarter know that the lesser evil is to keep things the way they were in the good ol' days as our forefathers that wrote the constitution were probably much smarter than the politicians and judges of today.
What about Police misconduct? We do not want to give the POLICE TOO MUCH power, trust me on that. There have to be strong limits and controls, otherwise, we won't be a FREE Nation that stands for FREEDOM much longer.
Toyota sales increased in Japan as well. The reasons are cash for clunkers program there favors Prius because of the efficiency; and Japanese's nature to defend the national interest when their No. 1 company in trouble.
Ahhh, yeah, your right, Toyota was up....10%...ok. :confuse: :confuse:
Man, you are beginning to sound alot like Jim Lentz. Keep thinking it and saying it, and eventually you will believe it??? :confuse: :confuse: :confuse:
Paint the picture however "you" want, but the numbers are the numbers for US sales for the month of February 2010 and Toyota was the ONLY automaker without an increase in sales; down 10.61. Feel free to change the picture however "you" want, but that is the fact.
"We feel we're getting our fair share of the Toyota business," said Susan Docherty, who was head of sales and marketing at GM until Tuesday afternoon, when she was moved into solely a marketing role. GM's sales rose nearly 12 percent.
Honda Motor Co. said sales of the Accord sedan, which competes directly with the Camry, rose 41 percent. Honda's sales climbed 13 percent overall. Hyundai Motor Co. said its sales rose 11 percent, partly because of a 58 percent increase in sales of the Sonata, another Camry competitor.
Most carmakers offered deals to Toyota customers in February. According to the automotive Web site Edmunds.com, incentive spending rose 11 percent from January to $2,588 per vehicle. Toyota's incentive spending rose 26 percent, to $1,833 per vehicle. That was the fourth-highest monthly incentive total for Toyota since Edmunds began tracking data in 2002. While a boon for consumers, incentives eat into automakers' profits and companies have been trying to cut back on them.
Toyota must be worried because it has generally avoided big incentives in the past, said Paul Ballew, vice president of analytics at Nationwide Mutual Insurance and a former GM economist.
"They're jumping into the deep end of the incentive pool," he said.
According to a USA Today/Gallup poll published Tuesday, 31 percent of Americans think it is unsafe to be in a Toyota or Lexus and 55 percent say Toyota didn't respond promptly to safety problems. The poll questioned 2,021 people and had a margin of error of three percentage points.
And all the table-pounding, strident “yes” or “no” questions, mealy-mouthed soliloquies, teary story-telling, blatant political pontificating and nonsensical mutterings aren’t going to get us any closer to finding out, either.
Wow, I quit reading "Sweet Pete" many moons ago because of his overinflated ego, but I must say that he nailed this one.
Hey, you can't have it both ways. GM is ultimately responsible for the supplier's parts. That's what you said about Toyota in regard to the CTS-supplied gas pedals. As for your conspiracy theory, maybe you ought to ask gagrice!
Toyota must be worried because it has generally avoided big incentives in the past, said Paul Ballew, vice president of analytics at Nationwide Mutual Insurance and a former GM economist.
"They're jumping into the deep end of the incentive pool," he said.
Can you hear that Toyota resale value now...KA CHUNK, KA CHUNK, KA CHUNK
Ford and GM incentives are over $3,000 per car for the same reporting period. (Sys-Con Media)
Tempting though it is to continue debating this with you on this one, this is the wrong forum and I admit to being totally at fault for bringing it up in the first place.
I fully agree though that we don't need more laws, and that the police have enough power as it is. I just think we'd probably disagree about what would be reasonable and unreasonable in the application of those powers.
However, c'est la vie, it would be boring if we all agreed.
well, you can't fault the Prius for efficiency because it was one of the original benchmark for hybrids; I bet if you went around and ask a group of 100 people when you say the word hybrid car, what's the first thing that comes to mind, I'll bet you that 80% of them will say the Prius!
its not our fault GM and Ford priorities where not hybrids when the Prius first debut in Japan and in the United States! that was smart for the Japanese gov't to do that!
if you noticed, when the Fed Gov't did our cash for clunkers program, imports were I believe 8 out of the top ten vehicles bought in the programs while domestic SUVs and pick-ups were among the highest turn in products for the program just going to show the American car manufactures foolish priorities at the time not being hybrids and have only finally gotten their act together on hybrids in the last few years!
its not Japan's fault that our own Fed Gov't didn't exclusively make the cash for clunker program for domestic automakers only!
Man, you are beginning to sound alot like Jim Lentz. Keep thinking it and saying it, and eventually you will believe it???
Paint the picture however "you" want, but the numbers are the numbers for US sales for the month of February 2010 and Toyota was the ONLY automaker without an increase in sales; down 10.61. Feel free to change the picture however "you" want, but that is the fact
I'm not trying to paint any other picture then playing referee in posting some positive news for Toyota in all the sea of negativity of article after article on this forum in order to see both sides of the coin and keep objectivity on Toyota!
I'd also like to point out that the sales drop for Toyota in the US last month was much lower than both YOU and other automotive professional speculated it would drop come the report at the beginning of March!
Also, I'd like to direct you to my previous posts in this forum in that I have NEVER said they didn't have a sales drop and I've been very impartial when it has come to Toyota, I'm trying to keep the perspective on the whole thing! I have consistently admonished them for covering up their problems and seem to keep having to point that out to people for some reason :confuse: I never said the US numbers didn't show a decline so I don't know how I'm supposedly painting a different picture :confuse:
I'm not a mouth piece for Lentz so stop accusing me of being one! You should have been on the congressional panel grilling Toyota down in Washingon
It's over 60, isn't it?
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,