...Sounds like toyo is pretty much fleet fodder. Those sales will be breaking as the fleets don't order more because of ongoing problems at toyota.
I'd bet my last dollar that well under 1/3 of Toyota's sales have been to fleets at any time in the last 30 years!
Talk about fleet fodder -- you do know about the Chevy Impala, probably THE rental queen of fleets?
And about your woman friend with the allegedly faulty cruise control, she ought to find a reputable dealer to have it fixed under warranty. All I know is all 3 of my former and current Camrys have had excellent cruise control performance, certainly holding a set speed up and down hills better than the 2007 Pontiac G6 I rented on a trip to the SW US that same year.
Uh... I think you should be replying to smarty666, not me, because those weren't my words.
Also, about that cryptic exchange we had last week, has that been resolved with some new announcements this week? I haven't heard a peep about it since. :confuse:
just found the article I was looking for, Toyota's sales to fleets last month was not 1/3 or of their sales, fleet sales were only 13% of Toyota's sales last month not the 33% your claiming it was!
Ford had 40% fleet sales and GM 32 or 33% I think the article stated!
what I'm saying is, Toyota's fleet sales have dropped because of their recent problems since, as the article you pointed out stated, people who have to rent a car, for whatever reason, the majority are fearful of renting/driving a Toyota, which has thus reduced the car sales for Toyota to rental fleets because the rental companies don't want them since the ones they have, a good chunk of them, are just sitting on their lots not being used; at least in the short term, until Toyota repairs all the car and we get some time between these current issues, Toyota's sales to fleet should continue to decline or at least stay pretty low!
what I was getting at is, 87% of that 100k some sales of Toyota products last month that wasn't to fleets, had to be either to regular consumers or Gov't/public/private companies to account for all those sales! which is a good showing for Toyota then what was original speculated would be the decline considering their current problem and suspension of sales of certain models for several days last month; remember, sales to individuals and say a private company is much more profitable for a auto company then fleet sales are!
that is why some in the auto industry are still not too happy that a high percentage of Ford, GM, and Chrysler sales are made up fleet sales!
>allegedly faulty cruise control, she ought to find a reputable dealer to have it fixed under warranty
She didn't drive the Camry here to visit; she rode with her daughter and grandkids. Else I would have volunteered to drive the car to see what the cruise was doing. Is there something different about how the cruise is operated, set, on a Camry. I don't know what car she had before the Camry.
As for the "allegedly," I haven't driven the car. She is not good at describing what it does. She said when she sets it, it goes faster than it was set at. Therefore she uses it only on open road driving for longer trips on the interstate, and most of her driving is local in Ypsilanti area. I suggested that she turn it completely off, and then turn it back on and set the speed.
As for the fleet fodder, the numbers are probably in favor of the Impala. You're right. But the appearance of her couple year old previous generation silver Camry is bland and really common. It must be the only color the dealers order. it's just my personal dislike of the appearance of that color.
When we go to visit, I'll ask about driving the car and check the cruise.
I personally find the tan Camry to be the most boring-looking and anonymous. My '04 LE is a beautiful medium blue metallic. Our '05 XLE is silver, but that was the best color of 3 cars that were available at the time with the options we wanted.
Toyotas use a stalk for all cruise control functions. It's mounted at the 4 o'clock position on the steering column, just behind the wheel. However, the stalk turns with the wheel, so it's always within easy reach of your right fingertip if you keep your right hand at the 3 o'clock position.
It does take some getting used to, compared to the steering-wheel mounted systems on most other cars today. However, it's way better to operate compared to the turn-signal stock mounted cruise setups on older GM vehicles.
I like it a lot, but my wife still gets confused sometimes when operating it. (Then again, I use the cruise much more often than she does, since I do most of the driving on long trips.)
I'm not sure Toyota ever reached anwhere near even 20% in annual fleet sales. In fact, at a lot of Hertz locations they charge more for a Camry than an Impala. If they want to give me a Camry for the same rental price as an Impala, I'd take it in a heartbeat (as long as it doesn't have the too cramped sunroof otion).
its all the way at the bottom of the article on the first page, I don't think there was second page though!
I don't know how you missed it but here is the quote from the article:
"Ford said 40 percent of its sales were to fleets, while GM sold 32 percent of its vehicles to fleets. Thirteen percent of Toyota's sales were to fleets."
By TOM KRISHER and KEN THOMAS, Associated Press Writers Tom Krisher And Ken Thomas, Associated Press Writers – 54 mins ago
DETROIT – At least 15 Toyota drivers have complained to U.S. safety officials that their cars sped up by themselves even after being fixed under recalls for sticky gas pedals or floor mat problems, according to an Associated Press analysis.
The development raises questions about whether Toyota's repairs will bring an end to the cases of wild, uncontrolled acceleration or if there may be electronic causes behind the complaints that have dogged the automaker.
Although the allegations were unverified by the agency, the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration said Wednesday it was contacting people who have complained about acceleration problems even after repairs were done under two large recalls. The agency wants to hear from others who have had similar troubles, it said.
"If Toyota owners are still experiencing sudden acceleration incidents after taking their cars to the dealership, we want to know about it," agency administrator David Strickland said in a statement.
The new complaints raised eyebrows in Congress, which has held three hearings on the recalls in the past week and is investigating Toyota's safety problems.
"I am deeply concerned that NHTSA has received this many reports of possible sudden unanticipated acceleration even after these vehicles have received Toyota's recommended fix," said Rep. Bruce Braley, D-Iowa, who serves on one of the committees investigating Toyota.
"It's critical that we get to the bottom of this problem as quickly as possible."
Toyota spokesman Brian Lyons said Wednesday the company was investigating the complaints, though it remains confident in its recall fixes. Teams of engineers are being mobilized to check into the complaints, he said.
Toyota has recalled more than 8 million vehicles worldwide since October to fix floor mats that can snag gas pedals or faulty gas pedal assemblies that can stick.
NHTSA says 52 people have been killed in crashes linked to Toyota's acceleration problems. Toyota has blamed mechanical causes or drivers pressing the wrong pedal. However, some question whether the electronic throttle system or a software glitch may be at fault, rather than a mechanical issue involving pedals. Toyota says it is looking into electronics as a possible cause.
In the meantime, complaints keep coming in from drivers who say the fix has not solved the problem, including at least 15 filed with NHTSA in the last two weeks, according to an AP analysis of the agency database.
The owner of a 2009 Camry, Stewart Stogel, of Mount Vernon, N.Y., told the AP he narrowly missed driving over an embankment and hitting a wall when the mid-size sedan accelerated on its own last Saturday — five days after being serviced as part of the recall.
Stogel, who has not filed a complaint with NHTSA, said the incident occurred near his home after a dealership trimmed the gas pedal and installed new brake control software as part of the floor mat recall.
"At first the brakes didn't engage at all," said the 49-year-old freelance journalist. "Just as I approached Terrace Avenue, the wheels were able to get some traction, and all of the sudden the engine did disengage."
Stogel said the car had accelerated two previous times before the recall fix, and both times he took it to dealerships to be checked. In one case it was inspected by a Toyota corporate technician who could find nothing wrong, he said.
After the latest incident, Stogel called his dealer, who told him to return with the car so Toyota engineers could inspect it. He did so on Wednesday and was given a loaner car. He also left a message with Toyota Motor Sales U.S.A. President Jim Lentz.
Carolyn Kimbrell, 59, a retired office assistant in Whitesville, Ky., said her 2006 Toyota Avalon accelerated last weekend as she was returning with her 9-year-old granddaughter from a trip to the mall. The incident occurred a week after her dealer inserted a metal piece into the gas pedal mechanism on Feb. 20 to eliminate the friction blamed for the pedal problems.
The dealer said her car wasn't covered by the floor mat recall, but agreed to do that fix after she reported the latest incident, she said.
Now she wonders if the company's remedies will solve the problem. "It just scares you," Kimbrell said.
The recalls have hurt Toyota's safety and quality reputation and brought death and injury lawsuits. Federal prosecutors in New York are conducting a criminal investigation into the recalls and the Securities and Exchange Commission is probing what the automaker told investors.
Electronic causes have come under scrutiny because until now, Toyota and the government have done little to examine them. Most modern cars are essentially computers on wheels, with systems of sensors, wires and computer chips controlling the throttle, brakes, transmissions and other functions.
Software glitches can develop in the computers, electrical interference can cause sensors to send the wrong signals and there can be electrical shorts. Sometimes two or three glitches can happen at once.
Re-creating electronic problems is extremely difficult because often they leave no trace.
The latest complaints are further evidence that the automaker's repairs don't cover all possible causes, said Sean Kane, president of Safety Research and Strategies Inc., a Massachusetts-based car safety investigation and advocacy group who has studied Toyota.
"Anybody who has reviewed the complaints and reviewed what's going on here has to reach a conclusion that there's more going on than sticky pedals, floor mats and drivers," said Kane, whose firm has done research for trial lawyers suing Toyota.
Kane believes the problem has multiple electronic roots, perhaps in cruise-control mechanisms.
So far NHTSA, which has the power to force an automaker to recall vehicles, has gone along with the mechanical causes pinpointed by Toyota.
"What we need this agency to do is really question Toyota, look at the issues in a more thorough way," Kane said. "In the past they were quick to dismiss electronics."
well, I don't remember ever saying Toyota reached 20% in annual fleet sales unless you are talking about something that explorer was talking about because I never said or implied that figure! I don't know how much Toyota's fleet sales were for 2009 calender year? You would have to look that number up if you want to know it!
Therefore she uses it only on open road driving for longer trips on the interstate
Uh, I think that is where any cruise control is designed to be used. I hope she is not trying to use it in bumper to bumper traffic !! If so, that might be her problem. I would suggest that she read the manual, if she can find it.
I use mine around town, usually set between 35 and 40. I usually stay off the business 4 lane going to town and take a two lane collecter, that's sort of a parkway. Not much traffic and I tend to space out looking at the cyclists and horses, and the occasional cow -- putting the cruise on has helped me avoid a speeding ticket or two I think.
I really should get paddle shifters in my next car. I'm always tapping the cruise up and down button to adjust the speed. Hand throttle controls would be kind of fun to have too.
No she doesn't use it around town, only on long trips with me. I think I can explain the cruise control function better than the manual. I think in her case, it's more of a problem of lack of familiarity.
Actually, I DO use CC on my commute, because much of it is on a divided 4-lane highway in the opposite direction of most traffic.
Come to think of it, there are some places in my small burg where I do use CC, for the same reason as you -- to keep my speed down where the limit seems artificially low.
This story was broadcast today on NPR. It has some interesting nuggets, but I wouldn't say this definitively provides any more real answers. It still relies on complaints to the NHTSA, without analyzing their accuracy, completeness, or veracity.
The dangerous problem of cars accelerating without a driver's input has put Toyota in the headlines — and brought the giant carmaker's executives to congressional hearings. But unintended acceleration has been a problem across the auto industry, according to an NPR analysis of consumer complaints to federal regulators.
The NPR News investigation finds that other automakers have had high rates of complaints in some model years, including Volkswagen, Volvo and Honda — in some cases resolving the apparent problems through evolving technology and recalls...
As NPR's Robert Benincasa tells Michele Norris, comparing complaints with manufacturers' market share can reveal potential problems with particular makes of cars.
"Toyota's problems seemed go back to 2002," Benincasa said. "That's a few years before these recalls we've been hearing about with the floor mats and the sticky gas pedals. So back in 2002, they had about 10 percent of the U.S. auto market and they had about 19 percent of the complaints on acceleration."
While unintended acceleration is still generally rare, it has touched automakers throughout the industry.
As an example, Benincasa points to a high rate of complaints about acceleration in cars made by Volkswagen in 2008, "despite the fact that the company says it's been using a system where the brake overrides the accelerator since the 2002 model year."
"Hondas in the 2001-2003 model years had a relatively high rate of complaints," Benincasa said. "Then in 2004, the complaints dropped significantly and have remained low — and that company doesn't use a brake override approach"...
Just my 2 cents worth. What's the possibility of "inductive pickup" in the wiring i.e. circuit, causing the problem. I know on battery charger ammeters and other farm equipment that the hot wire for the ammeter is ran through a holder that picks up the power running through the wire insulation (not direct wire contacts). What's the possibility of two wires (hot vs ground), close in proximity together causing power to feed through the live insulated wire side i.e. circuit board, causing the rest of the circuit to be hot, powering the "accelerator system". It would seem to me that the magnetism in the wiring harness, once it get's started, stays powered up until something breaks the circuit, like turning off the ignition. I am assuming these systems are low voltage/amperage/ohms which to me would make the system even more susceptible to high current fluctuations. It's old fashion thinking but no one else has the answer either.
One thing I noticed is that Nissan does not seem to be as highly regarded as toyota and honda in the US. Are they really that bad ? Considering that after reading all these news, their recall rate is not any worse than toyota and honda. They do have their share of problems but nowwhere as bad as toyota and honda, especially recent cases.
Or could it be that they are not as aggressive in lobbying the mags, IIHS, jd power, consumer reports etc, and as a result consumers don't get as much " positive " feedback about them from these sources ?
Considering they are similarly big as honda in Japan (these 2 are often neck to neck in the race in Japan), and also have big sales in China, Europe as well (compared to toyota, honda), they couldn't be that bad, can they ?
I think Nissan's reliability reputation took a hit in North America when they opened their factory in Canton, Mississippi. They had more problems than Mercedes did when MB opened their plant in Alabama, and they had plenty.
"Ford said 40 percent of its sales were to fleets,
I would expect a large percentage to be trucks to large corporations. I know in the Arctic Oilfields more than 90% of the vehicles were Ford F250 and F350 diesel trucks. Companies like BP would buy a 1000 trucks at a time. They don't keep them a long time either. Hertz used to buy exclusively Ford. Been a while since I rented from Hertz.
Nissan is not a bad company by any means of the imagination, they have just had their share of problems and have always been number 3 of the big Japanese automakers and it is always a lot tougher in life to come from behind!
The same things could be say about Hyundai and Nissan! If you look at both of these companies just 10 years ago, they were struggling, had so-so interior qualities, and certain models had so-so reliabilities; in just a 10 year period, a lot more people are buying their products now, both have had a good increase in market share and there overall reliabilities have improved, and both Hyundai and Nissan are producing really nice high quality interiors with great uncomplicated ergonomics, etc!
also, Nissan is in much a similar boat to Hyundai in that they have many years of some poor reliability models, poor interior qualities,etc that they have done away with a good majority of these problems, for instance, since 2007 Nissan's interior quality has dramatically improved to the point that except for a 1 or 2 minor complaints, their interior's overall have gotten rave and good reviews; they are not class leading like Honda is but I would say they have the 2nd or 3rd nicest interiors of the mainstream auto makers! at least a head of the current Toyota Camry quality! I said on the midsize forum that, Nissan would be actually much higher in the rankings and I personally think better off, for reliability and overall quality as a brand if they got rid of some of their continuing problem models, namely the Versa, Quest, Titan, and Armada!
if you just look at their 5 most popular selling bread and butter models, Sentra, Altima, Maxima, Rogue, and Murano, all of these vehicles are highly recommended by most mags, and reviewers, and I believe all have above avg reliability now for 2010, I know my 10 Max just got that rating!
Just FYI, Toyota, Ford, and GM are the big leaders with the most amount recalls issued by manufacturer!
that might well be true, if you look at Ford's sales figures by model for last month, the F-series pick-ups were a big hit most likely indicating they sold to some of the places you mentioned!!
For me personally i compare these Toyota recalls to the H1N1 virus outbreak. Totally overblown by the media, and a waste of time and money. Just like H1N1 no one will remember or care in 6 months time.
This is just my POV..... Ha though this is abit offtopic but , my wife got all scared about the virus outbreak and immediatly got the H1N1 with my 2 sons, while I disagreed and didn't get the shot. Needless to say Her and the boys came down with flu like symptoms and spent the following day puking and such While I enjoyed a nice quiet house and didn't get so much as a cough :shades:
For me personally i compare these Toyota recalls to the H1N1 virus outbreak. Totally overblown by the media, and a waste of time and money. Just like H1N1 no one will remember or care in 6 months time.
Maybe you can try to explain that reasoning to the families who have suffered the death of a husband, wife, child etc. and see if they feel the same way simply because Toyota chose to try to blame it on the consumer, then the supplier, then the floor mats, then the pedals, and the list goes on. :sick:
According to new complaints filed with the National Highway Transportation Safety Administration, some Toyota owners have experienced what they believe to be sudden and unintended acceleration problems, even after having their vehicles serviced for the recent recalls. Toyota is currently recalling 5.4 million vehicles due to possible floor mat entrapment, and an additional 4.1 million vehicles with accelerator pedals that can stick.
These allegations, which have not yet been confirmed by NHTSA, would indicate that there may be a source of unintended acceleration outside of the vehicles’ pedals and floor mats. So far, there have been seven documented complaints within the last two weeks that allege a post-fix unintended acceleration event has taken place, according to the LA Times.
One report involves a 2010 Camry that was serviced according to the recent recalls on February 12. The driver reported that five days after having the recall work performed, her vehicle accelerated up a snowbank.
“Had the incident happened one minute earlier, I would have been in a high car/pedestrian area and would not have been able to avoid an accident,” the unnamed consumer wrote. “The fix done by Toyota is not the fix for the acceleration problem.”
But some analysts worry that the recent media attention on Toyota Motor Company has instilled the idea that unintended acceleration is more common than it really is, causing drivers to be constantly weary of the possibility and even potentially jumping to false conclusions. For instance, some vehicles have displayed check engine warning lights on the dashboard after having their vehicles serviced for the recall – which may or may not be related to the repairs at the dealership.
“There is already doubt out there that the solutions Toyota has put forward really fix the problem of unintended acceleration,” said Aaron Bragman, auto industry analyst at IHS Global Insight, to the LA Times.
Bragman went on to caution that all complaints should be investigated before conclusions are drawn.
The increased attention to Toyota vehicle problems has also brought with it a skyrocketing of complaints to NHTSA since January. NHTSA says it has also increased the number of fatalities associated with unintended acceleration to 52 – up from 34.
Stewart STogal talking about sudden unintended acceleration AFTER the FIX.
Brake override didn't work. But brakes don't seem to work at beginning. This has been reported several ways in reports.
Is there a problem with the vacuum valve that keeps the vacuum in the booster when the intake manifold vacuum drops; is air being allow into the booster? That would be one explanation of why people say the brakes don't work. Are the one-way valves defective too?
This is advertising money can't buy for toyota. This morning's Dayton Daily Nothing has a large picture placed high on page of Stewart Stogal in his car. It has about 1/6 of national news page given to the picture and article.
Before the "it's the driver's fault" (another poster's post-not 210's) vultures pick the meat off the bones of this poor woman driver, when she lived here there are many stretches of rural road and suburban road with speed limits below the 55 Ohio speed limit. Many people use the cruise to maintain a speed without watching the speedometer or HUD display in my case. The outside Detroit to Ann Arbor metroplex where she lives now is more built up, but many roads are 4-lane with 35 speed limit or slightly higher and timed traffic lights or on-demand cross lights.
Houdini: As for not being able to correctly use a properly working cruise, she has had many cars before with them; she compares this one's operation to those and finds it is not working similarly. I don't know what the owner's manual would have to do with how to use a cruise control.
Your BIL must have incredibly bad luck. Was he the drummer that was kicked out of the Beatles before they became big? I had a 1968 Buick that was still running in 1992. I recently had a 1988 Buick Park Avenue with 186K miles. My wife drives a 2005 Buick LaCrosse she purchased new and has yet to experience an unscheduled maintenance event. I still have a 1989 Cadillac Brougham I purchased new with 158K miles on it and it still looks and runs like new.
Well, I hope recent events have at least erased that smug, entitled attitude Toyota salesmen tend to exhibit. They act as if they're doing you a big favor selling you a car.
>entitled attitude Toyota salesmen tend to exhibit. They act as if they're doing you a big favor selling you a car.
The attitude even showed if I wanted just to look at the cars. It was like if you weren't already verbally committed to buying one "today," they really didn't want to bother with you.
>The thought is tempting. since I only have 60K on my Toyota
But with the extra high resale value toyotas have just think about how little you'd have to pay for a new one! Maybe only $5 or so!
>if Toyota would offer some serious rebates on the Highlander(3K),
Because toyotas are such good values, through the years they haven't offered rebates. You should just go buy one without needing a rebate; that rebate desire would lower you to the level of a buyer of one of those other inferior autos, like Ford, GM, etc.
>have fun spending big money fixing them once the warranty runs out
Odd. This sounds like the Palin bashing--if they say it often enough some people begin to believe it: all talk and no substance; strictly an opinion move. I've had little expense on my GM cars. Oh. Wait. I may have to put on a new muffler on my 98 leSabre. Darn thing is 12.5 years old and it's rusting. So if I don't replace the car soon, I might have to put a 75$ muffler on it. Those GMs just don't last. What can I expect at 172,000 miles. why I'll bet toyotas go 300,000 miles with no muffler. That must be why so many of the 10-year old toyos have tin cans on them?
One thing I noticed is that Nissan does not seem to be as highly regarded as toyota and honda in the US. Are they really that bad ?
IMHO, no. I kind of like how Nissan can "fly under the radar" with no fervent opposition as is the case for Toyota and to a lesser extent, Honda. From my anecdotal experience of one vehicle, a '98 Frontier 2wd with a relatively low 71K miles, it has been an absolutely reliable little truck that gets outstanding gas mileage with its 4-cylinder, 5-speed manual combo -- 26 mpg overall. Try THAT in today's oversize "small" trucks.
In the April auto issue by Consumer Reports (I know, I know...), the 2000-04 Frontier 2wd, same generation as mine, are among the highly recommended used car buys. (The 1998 models are too old to make the cut.) Frontiers of that generation don't show up in the TrueDelta reliability stats.
You mention the IIHS. Nissan does have one 2010 Top Safety Pick, the new Cube, which is one more car than BMW or Mazda have on that same list!
There needs to be some kind of “triage” system for examining these additional complaints after the recall work was done. Some have to be bogus, some exaggerated, but some appear to be worth looking into in depth, like Mr. Stogal's. Separating the wheat from the chaff has to be a top NHTSA priority.
I still think most of this is hysteria fanned by the flames of widespread publicity (as in the Audi 5000 case of the late 80s), but there is a slight possibility of something real going on here (beyond pedal misapplication, interfering mats, and sticky gas pedals), not just for Toyota but other automakers like Ford.
Separating the wheat from the chaff has to be a top NHTSA priority.
You mean like they did with all but the short burst UA over the last decade. I don't rate the NHTSA high on integrity. Especially with their unholy alliance to top Toyota execs.
I think NHTSA has to work a lot harder this time. They have a new administrator, plus Secretary LaHood seems to be serious about resolving this issue. And there never was an "unholy alliance" with top Toyota execs.
I think NHTSA had an institutional mindset, left over from the Audi 5000 days, that sudden acceleration was most likely due to driver error, or "pedal misapplication," to use the PC term.
I think you are being kind to the agency. I think it is typical government laziness and corruption. I know career civil servants that work hard and ones that do NOTHING. I don't think the NHTSA in the past has NOT been proactive enough.
Just my 2 cents worth. What's the possibility of "inductive pickup" in the wiring i.e. circuit, causing the problem.
Strange that all the other replies to your post seem to be about the flu virus. :surprise:
Anyhow, your point is valid and it's certainly a possibility. If that does happen though, it won't be through a single action or it would have been caught by now. However the possibility exists that a combination of seemingly normal events could trigger an induction event, i.e. headlights on low, heater blower high, wipers on high, then you flash the headlights as you drive under power lines while overtaking a vehicle that's using a UHF communications radio. Something like that is hard to reproduce for testing, but I remember similar problems with ABS systems when combined with the use of car phones some years ago.
Regardless of their shortcomings, there are a lot of people alive today who would have been dead without that agency doing what it does.
AHEM - Allow me to rephrase !!
There might be a FEW people dead because NTHSA dragged their feet on the 'Yota issue, but there are FAR FAR more STILL ALIVE because the agency exists.
The intense media spotlight has been focused directly on Toyota as its recalls of over 8 million vehicles for acceleration-related issues has begun hitting the Japanese automaker where it hurts most. Toyota sales were down year over year in January and a similar story unfolded for the month of February.
Automotive News is reporting that a recent Consumer Reports survey of Toyota owners shows that the embattled automaker should expect more customers to jump ship in the short-term. The Japanese automaker was leading the industry in consideration as recently as December, as CR data shows that 70 percent of Toyota owners were planning on purchasing a new Toyota when it came time for a new vehicle. Just two months later and the number has dipped to 60 percent, dropping Toyota below Honda in overall consideration.
The negative Toyota press is no doubt hurting the automaker, but the news isn't totally (and completely) bad. While Toyota dropped below Honda in owner loyalty, the Japanese automaker is still ahead of Chevrolet (52 percent loyalty) and Ford (51 percent loyalty). Toyota also fared better with customers 45 and over, as the demographic reportedly has remained loyal to the brand. Customers age 18 to 44, however, are more likely to switch to another brand.
While it looks like Toyota is doing a decent job of weathering the sales storm during its time in the media spotlight, consideration could possibly take another hit in March. CR surveyed Toyota customers prior to the three congressional hearings with the automaker. :sick:
Notice the difference: it comes on slowly and it doesn't leave the vehicle uncontrolled like the toyota Uncontrolled Acceleration does. And, whoopeeee, there's been one alleged injury. By the way, the motors for the steering come from a company partly owned by, guess whom, toyota.
Knowing how the domestic car companies operate when it comes to quality, I'm sure GM specified that Toyota give them the parts they make for 25% less cost than they charge themselves and of course with 50% less quality than Toyota would mandate for their vehicles.
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
Comments
I'd bet my last dollar that well under 1/3 of Toyota's sales have been to fleets at any time in the last 30 years!
Talk about fleet fodder -- you do know about the Chevy Impala, probably THE rental queen of fleets?
And about your woman friend with the allegedly faulty cruise control, she ought to find a reputable dealer to have it fixed under warranty. All I know is all 3 of my former and current Camrys have had excellent cruise control performance, certainly holding a set speed up and down hills better than the 2007 Pontiac G6 I rented on a trip to the SW US that same year.
Also, about that cryptic exchange we had last week, has that been resolved with some new announcements this week? I haven't heard a peep about it since. :confuse:
Ford had 40% fleet sales and GM 32 or 33% I think the article stated!
what I'm saying is, Toyota's fleet sales have dropped because of their recent problems since, as the article you pointed out stated, people who have to rent a car, for whatever reason, the majority are fearful of renting/driving a Toyota, which has thus reduced the car sales for Toyota to rental fleets because the rental companies don't want them since the ones they have, a good chunk of them, are just sitting on their lots not being used; at least in the short term, until Toyota repairs all the car and we get some time between these current issues, Toyota's sales to fleet should continue to decline or at least stay pretty low!
what I was getting at is, 87% of that 100k some sales of Toyota products last month that wasn't to fleets, had to be either to regular consumers or Gov't/public/private companies to account for all those sales! which is a good showing for Toyota then what was original speculated would be the decline considering their current problem and suspension of sales of certain models for several days last month; remember, sales to individuals and say a private company is much more profitable for a auto company then fleet sales are!
that is why some in the auto industry are still not too happy that a high percentage of Ford, GM, and Chrysler sales are made up fleet sales!
http://www.newsvine.com/_news/2010/03/02/3968808-toyotas-pain-is-rivals-sales-ga- - - - in-in-february
She didn't drive the Camry here to visit; she rode with her daughter and grandkids. Else I would have volunteered to drive the car to see what the cruise was doing. Is there something different about how the cruise is operated, set, on a Camry. I don't know what car she had before the Camry.
As for the "allegedly," I haven't driven the car. She is not good at describing what it does. She said when she sets it, it goes faster than it was set at. Therefore she uses it only on open road driving for longer trips on the interstate, and most of her driving is local in Ypsilanti area. I suggested that she turn it completely off, and then turn it back on and set the speed.
As for the fleet fodder, the numbers are probably in favor of the Impala. You're right. But the appearance of her couple year old previous generation silver Camry is bland and really common. It must be the only color the dealers order. it's just my personal dislike of the appearance of that color.
When we go to visit, I'll ask about driving the car and check the cruise.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Toyotas use a stalk for all cruise control functions. It's mounted at the 4 o'clock position on the steering column, just behind the wheel. However, the stalk turns with the wheel, so it's always within easy reach of your right fingertip if you keep your right hand at the 3 o'clock position.
It does take some getting used to, compared to the steering-wheel mounted systems on most other cars today. However, it's way better to operate compared to the turn-signal stock mounted cruise setups on older GM vehicles.
I like it a lot, but my wife still gets confused sometimes when operating it. (Then again, I use the cruise much more often than she does, since I do most of the driving on long trips.)
Just be careful, it don't get away from you. Don't need anymore statistics. I think Toyota is starting to get the picture. Just very slow on the draw.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
I don't know how you missed it but here is the quote from the article:
"Ford said 40 percent of its sales were to fleets, while GM sold 32 percent of its vehicles to fleets. Thirteen percent of Toyota's sales were to fleets."
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100304/ap_on_bi_ge/us_toyota_no_fix
Drivers complain that Toyota's fixes didn't work
By TOM KRISHER and KEN THOMAS, Associated Press Writers Tom Krisher And Ken Thomas, Associated Press Writers – 54 mins ago
DETROIT – At least 15 Toyota drivers have complained to U.S. safety officials that their cars sped up by themselves even after being fixed under recalls for sticky gas pedals or floor mat problems, according to an Associated Press analysis.
The development raises questions about whether Toyota's repairs will bring an end to the cases of wild, uncontrolled acceleration or if there may be electronic causes behind the complaints that have dogged the automaker.
Although the allegations were unverified by the agency, the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration said Wednesday it was contacting people who have complained about acceleration problems even after repairs were done under two large recalls. The agency wants to hear from others who have had similar troubles, it said.
"If Toyota owners are still experiencing sudden acceleration incidents after taking their cars to the dealership, we want to know about it," agency administrator David Strickland said in a statement.
The new complaints raised eyebrows in Congress, which has held three hearings on the recalls in the past week and is investigating Toyota's safety problems.
"I am deeply concerned that NHTSA has received this many reports of possible sudden unanticipated acceleration even after these vehicles have received Toyota's recommended fix," said Rep. Bruce Braley, D-Iowa, who serves on one of the committees investigating Toyota.
"It's critical that we get to the bottom of this problem as quickly as possible."
Toyota spokesman Brian Lyons said Wednesday the company was investigating the complaints, though it remains confident in its recall fixes. Teams of engineers are being mobilized to check into the complaints, he said.
Toyota has recalled more than 8 million vehicles worldwide since October to fix floor mats that can snag gas pedals or faulty gas pedal assemblies that can stick.
NHTSA says 52 people have been killed in crashes linked to Toyota's acceleration problems. Toyota has blamed mechanical causes or drivers pressing the wrong pedal. However, some question whether the electronic throttle system or a software glitch may be at fault, rather than a mechanical issue involving pedals. Toyota says it is looking into electronics as a possible cause.
In the meantime, complaints keep coming in from drivers who say the fix has not solved the problem, including at least 15 filed with NHTSA in the last two weeks, according to an AP analysis of the agency database.
The owner of a 2009 Camry, Stewart Stogel, of Mount Vernon, N.Y., told the AP he narrowly missed driving over an embankment and hitting a wall when the mid-size sedan accelerated on its own last Saturday — five days after being serviced as part of the recall.
Stogel, who has not filed a complaint with NHTSA, said the incident occurred near his home after a dealership trimmed the gas pedal and installed new brake control software as part of the floor mat recall.
"At first the brakes didn't engage at all," said the 49-year-old freelance journalist. "Just as I approached Terrace Avenue, the wheels were able to get some traction, and all of the sudden the engine did disengage."
Stogel said the car had accelerated two previous times before the recall fix, and both times he took it to dealerships to be checked. In one case it was inspected by a Toyota corporate technician who could find nothing wrong, he said.
After the latest incident, Stogel called his dealer, who told him to return with the car so Toyota engineers could inspect it. He did so on Wednesday and was given a loaner car. He also left a message with Toyota Motor Sales U.S.A. President Jim Lentz.
Carolyn Kimbrell, 59, a retired office assistant in Whitesville, Ky., said her 2006 Toyota Avalon accelerated last weekend as she was returning with her 9-year-old granddaughter from a trip to the mall. The incident occurred a week after her dealer inserted a metal piece into the gas pedal mechanism on Feb. 20 to eliminate the friction blamed for the pedal problems.
The dealer said her car wasn't covered by the floor mat recall, but agreed to do that fix after she reported the latest incident, she said.
Now she wonders if the company's remedies will solve the problem. "It just scares you," Kimbrell said.
The recalls have hurt Toyota's safety and quality reputation and brought death and injury lawsuits. Federal prosecutors in New York are conducting a criminal investigation into the recalls and the Securities and Exchange Commission is probing what the automaker told investors.
Electronic causes have come under scrutiny because until now, Toyota and the government have done little to examine them. Most modern cars are essentially computers on wheels, with systems of sensors, wires and computer chips controlling the throttle, brakes, transmissions and other functions.
Software glitches can develop in the computers, electrical interference can cause sensors to send the wrong signals and there can be electrical shorts. Sometimes two or three glitches can happen at once.
Re-creating electronic problems is extremely difficult because often they leave no trace.
The latest complaints are further evidence that the automaker's repairs don't cover all possible causes, said Sean Kane, president of Safety Research and Strategies Inc., a Massachusetts-based car safety investigation and advocacy group who has studied Toyota.
"Anybody who has reviewed the complaints and reviewed what's going on here has to reach a conclusion that there's more going on than sticky pedals, floor mats and drivers," said Kane, whose firm has done research for trial lawyers suing Toyota.
Kane believes the problem has multiple electronic roots, perhaps in cruise-control mechanisms.
So far NHTSA, which has the power to force an automaker to recall vehicles, has gone along with the mechanical causes pinpointed by Toyota.
"What we need this agency to do is really question Toyota, look at the issues in a more thorough way," Kane said. "In the past they were quick to dismiss electronics."
Uh, I think that is where any cruise control is designed to be used. I hope she is not trying to use it in bumper to bumper traffic !! If so, that might be her problem. I would suggest that she read the manual, if she can find it.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
I really should get paddle shifters in my next car. I'm always tapping the cruise up and down button to adjust the speed. Hand throttle controls would be kind of fun to have too.
Actually, I DO use CC on my commute, because much of it is on a divided 4-lane highway in the opposite direction of most traffic.
The dangerous problem of cars accelerating without a driver's input has put Toyota in the headlines — and brought the giant carmaker's executives to congressional hearings. But unintended acceleration has been a problem across the auto industry, according to an NPR analysis of consumer complaints to federal regulators.
The NPR News investigation finds that other automakers have had high rates of complaints in some model years, including Volkswagen, Volvo and Honda — in some cases resolving the apparent problems through evolving technology and recalls...
As NPR's Robert Benincasa tells Michele Norris, comparing complaints with manufacturers' market share can reveal potential problems with particular makes of cars.
"Toyota's problems seemed go back to 2002," Benincasa said. "That's a few years before these recalls we've been hearing about with the floor mats and the sticky gas pedals. So back in 2002, they had about 10 percent of the U.S. auto market and they had about 19 percent of the complaints on acceleration."
While unintended acceleration is still generally rare, it has touched automakers throughout the industry.
As an example, Benincasa points to a high rate of complaints about acceleration in cars made by Volkswagen in 2008, "despite the fact that the company says it's been using a system where the brake overrides the accelerator since the 2002 model year."
"Hondas in the 2001-2003 model years had a relatively high rate of complaints," Benincasa said. "Then in 2004, the complaints dropped significantly and have remained low — and that company doesn't use a brake override approach"...
Or could it be that they are not as aggressive in lobbying the mags, IIHS, jd power, consumer reports etc, and as a result consumers don't get as much " positive " feedback about them from these sources ?
Considering they are similarly big as honda in Japan (these 2 are often neck to neck in the race in Japan), and also have big sales in China, Europe as well (compared to toyota, honda), they couldn't be that bad, can they ?
Sales are up some though. Canton vehicles in Nissan recalls (Clarion Ledger)
I would expect a large percentage to be trucks to large corporations. I know in the Arctic Oilfields more than 90% of the vehicles were Ford F250 and F350 diesel trucks. Companies like BP would buy a 1000 trucks at a time. They don't keep them a long time either. Hertz used to buy exclusively Ford. Been a while since I rented from Hertz.
The same things could be say about Hyundai and Nissan! If you look at both of these companies just 10 years ago, they were struggling, had so-so interior qualities, and certain models had so-so reliabilities; in just a 10 year period, a lot more people are buying their products now, both have had a good increase in market share and there overall reliabilities have improved, and both Hyundai and Nissan are producing really nice high quality interiors with great uncomplicated ergonomics, etc!
also, Nissan is in much a similar boat to Hyundai in that they have many years of some poor reliability models, poor interior qualities,etc that they have done away with a good majority of these problems, for instance, since 2007 Nissan's interior quality has dramatically improved to the point that except for a 1 or 2 minor complaints, their interior's overall have gotten rave and good reviews; they are not class leading like Honda is but I would say they have the 2nd or 3rd nicest interiors of the mainstream auto makers! at least a head of the current Toyota Camry quality! I said on the midsize forum that, Nissan would be actually much higher in the rankings and I personally think better off, for reliability and overall quality as a brand if they got rid of some of their continuing problem models, namely the Versa, Quest, Titan, and Armada!
if you just look at their 5 most popular selling bread and butter models, Sentra, Altima, Maxima, Rogue, and Murano, all of these vehicles are highly recommended by most mags, and reviewers, and I believe all have above avg reliability now for 2010, I know my 10 Max just got that rating!
Just FYI, Toyota, Ford, and GM are the big leaders with the most amount recalls issued by manufacturer!
http://media.ford.com/images/10031/February10sales.pdf
unfortunately, their numbers only state that they sold some 32k F-series pickups but doesn't tell you how many 150s, 250s, and 350s!
Notice the hand control.
This is just my POV..... Ha though this is abit offtopic but , my wife got all scared about the virus outbreak and immediatly got the H1N1 with my 2 sons, while I disagreed and didn't get the shot. Needless to say Her and the boys came down with flu like symptoms and spent the following day puking and such
Maybe you can try to explain that reasoning to the families who have suffered the death of a husband, wife, child etc. and see if they feel the same way simply because Toyota chose to try to blame it on the consumer, then the supplier, then the floor mats, then the pedals, and the list goes on. :sick:
By Mark Kleis
Toyota owners experience unintended acceleration AFTER recall fix
According to new complaints filed with the National Highway Transportation Safety Administration, some Toyota owners have experienced what they believe to be sudden and unintended acceleration problems, even after having their vehicles serviced for the recent recalls. Toyota is currently recalling 5.4 million vehicles due to possible floor mat entrapment, and an additional 4.1 million vehicles with accelerator pedals that can stick.
These allegations, which have not yet been confirmed by NHTSA, would indicate that there may be a source of unintended acceleration outside of the vehicles’ pedals and floor mats. So far, there have been seven documented complaints within the last two weeks that allege a post-fix unintended acceleration event has taken place, according to the LA Times.
One report involves a 2010 Camry that was serviced according to the recent recalls on February 12. The driver reported that five days after having the recall work performed, her vehicle accelerated up a snowbank.
“Had the incident happened one minute earlier, I would have been in a high car/pedestrian area and would not have been able to avoid an accident,” the unnamed consumer wrote. “The fix done by Toyota is not the fix for the acceleration problem.”
But some analysts worry that the recent media attention on Toyota Motor Company has instilled the idea that unintended acceleration is more common than it really is, causing drivers to be constantly weary of the possibility and even potentially jumping to false conclusions. For instance, some vehicles have displayed check engine warning lights on the dashboard after having their vehicles serviced for the recall – which may or may not be related to the repairs at the dealership.
“There is already doubt out there that the solutions Toyota has put forward really fix the problem of unintended acceleration,” said Aaron Bragman, auto industry analyst at IHS Global Insight, to the LA Times.
Bragman went on to caution that all complaints should be investigated before conclusions are drawn.
The increased attention to Toyota vehicle problems has also brought with it a skyrocketing of complaints to NHTSA since January. NHTSA says it has also increased the number of fatalities associated with unintended acceleration to 52 – up from 34.
With the UA issue there's lots of speculation and supposition but I have yet to see any empirical evidence.
Speculation and supposition do not equal fact.
Correlation does not equal fact.
As far as I'm concerned the case has not been made that Toyota's cars are unsafe.
Stewart STogal talking about sudden unintended acceleration AFTER the FIX.
Brake override didn't work. But brakes don't seem to work at beginning. This has been reported several ways in reports.
Is there a problem with the vacuum valve that keeps the vacuum in the booster when the intake manifold vacuum drops; is air being allow into the booster? That would be one explanation of why people say the brakes don't work. Are the one-way valves defective too?
This is advertising money can't buy for toyota. This morning's Dayton Daily Nothing has a large picture placed high on page of Stewart Stogal in his car. It has about 1/6 of national news page given to the picture and article.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Houdini: As for not being able to correctly use a properly working cruise, she has had many cars before with them; she compares this one's operation to those and finds it is not working similarly. I don't know what the owner's manual would have to do with how to use a cruise control.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
The attitude even showed if I wanted just to look at the cars. It was like if you weren't already verbally committed to buying one "today," they really didn't want to bother with you.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
But with the extra high resale value toyotas have just think about how little you'd have to pay for a new one! Maybe only $5 or so!
>if Toyota would offer some serious rebates on the Highlander(3K),
Because toyotas are such good values, through the years they haven't offered rebates. You should just go buy one without needing a rebate; that rebate desire would lower you to the level of a buyer of one of those other inferior autos, like Ford, GM, etc.
>have fun spending big money fixing them once the warranty runs out
Odd. This sounds like the Palin bashing--if they say it often enough some people begin to believe it: all talk and no substance; strictly an opinion move. I've had little expense on my GM cars. Oh. Wait. I may have to put on a new muffler on my 98 leSabre. Darn thing is 12.5 years old and it's rusting. So if I don't replace the car soon, I might have to put a 75$ muffler on it. Those GMs just don't last. What can I expect at 172,000 miles. why I'll bet toyotas go 300,000 miles with no muffler. That must be why so many of the 10-year old toyos have tin cans on them?
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
IMHO, no. I kind of like how Nissan can "fly under the radar" with no fervent opposition as is the case for Toyota and to a lesser extent, Honda. From my anecdotal experience of one vehicle, a '98 Frontier 2wd with a relatively low 71K miles, it has been an absolutely reliable little truck that gets outstanding gas mileage with its 4-cylinder, 5-speed manual combo -- 26 mpg overall. Try THAT in today's oversize "small" trucks.
In the April auto issue by Consumer Reports (I know, I know...), the 2000-04 Frontier 2wd, same generation as mine, are among the highly recommended used car buys. (The 1998 models are too old to make the cut.) Frontiers of that generation don't show up in the TrueDelta reliability stats.
You mention the IIHS. Nissan does have one 2010 Top Safety Pick, the new Cube, which is one more car than BMW or Mazda have on that same list!
It just so happens that you've had your Caddy as long as I kept my former '80 Volvo 240 -- 21 years. Congrats!
Unlike your Caddy though, the Volvo was a daily driver for most of its long life and had ~245K miles when I sold it.
I still think most of this is hysteria fanned by the flames of widespread publicity (as in the Audi 5000 case of the late 80s), but there is a slight possibility of something real going on here (beyond pedal misapplication, interfering mats, and sticky gas pedals), not just for Toyota but other automakers like Ford.
You mean like they did with all but the short burst UA over the last decade. I don't rate the NHTSA high on integrity. Especially with their unholy alliance to top Toyota execs.
I think NHTSA had an institutional mindset, left over from the Audi 5000 days, that sudden acceleration was most likely due to driver error, or "pedal misapplication," to use the PC term.
Strange that all the other replies to your post seem to be about the flu virus. :surprise:
Anyhow, your point is valid and it's certainly a possibility. If that does happen though, it won't be through a single action or it would have been caught by now.
However the possibility exists that a combination of seemingly normal events could trigger an induction event, i.e. headlights on low, heater blower high, wipers on high, then you flash the headlights as you drive under power lines while overtaking a vehicle that's using a UHF communications radio.
Something like that is hard to reproduce for testing, but I remember similar problems with ABS systems when combined with the use of car phones some years ago.
AHEM - Allow me to rephrase !!
There might be a FEW people dead because NTHSA dragged their feet on the 'Yota issue, but there are FAR FAR more STILL ALIVE because the agency exists.
Automotive News is reporting that a recent Consumer Reports survey of Toyota owners shows that the embattled automaker should expect more customers to jump ship in the short-term. The Japanese automaker was leading the industry in consideration as recently as December, as CR data shows that 70 percent of Toyota owners were planning on purchasing a new Toyota when it came time for a new vehicle. Just two months later and the number has dipped to 60 percent, dropping Toyota below Honda in overall consideration.
The negative Toyota press is no doubt hurting the automaker, but the news isn't totally (and completely) bad. While Toyota dropped below Honda in owner loyalty, the Japanese automaker is still ahead of Chevrolet (52 percent loyalty) and Ford (51 percent loyalty). Toyota also fared better with customers 45 and over, as the demographic reportedly has remained loyal to the brand. Customers age 18 to 44, however, are more likely to switch to another brand.
While it looks like Toyota is doing a decent job of weathering the sales storm during its time in the media spotlight, consideration could possibly take another hit in March. CR surveyed Toyota customers prior to the three congressional hearings with the automaker. :sick:
Consumer Reports says Toyota owner loyalty waning
Please elaborate for us on the model year and model.
Knowing how the domestic car companies operate when it comes to quality, I'm sure GM specified that Toyota give them the parts they make for 25% less cost than they charge themselves and of course with 50% less quality than Toyota would mandate for their vehicles.