I have owned a 2001 Mercedes C240 for close to 9 years now and have never encountered anything close to SUA with my accelerator pedal. I frequent Mercedes websites also and never heard of SUA complaints. If anything most of the complaints of the pedal position sensor concern the lag or delay when you floor the pedal.
I begin to detect the faint odor of irrational exuberance rearing its ugly head. The destruction of Arthur Anderson by mere association with Enron, the end of the Chevy Corvair caused in part by the charlatan Ralph Nader, the worldwide ban on DDT which has resulted in the death of millions in Africa; the result of a largely discredited screed by Rachel Carson.
It may well be that Toyota should have dealt more aggresively with the UA issue when it first appeared, but it didn't and all manner of complaints are coming out of the woodwork, some of which are certainly not related to mechanical issues.
The media, of course, is in over its head in any area which requires a modicum of intelligence and restraint. They latch onto alleged UA deaths as enthusiastically as they do earthquake fatalities. And the spectacle of the politicians in Washington, most of whom have never worked in the real world, grilling men who have actually built something which has improved the lives of millions, is almost more than a body can stand.
And finally, where today are the kind of people who could and did climb into a wagon in St. Louis and head west on a dangerous journey into the unknown. The Conestoga wagon people probably didn't get too many complaints because their vehicles were simple and their customers actually knew how to operate them.
Speaking of lying which is believable in front of the congress, Ms. Smith told us that she has a near death experience with her new Lexus ES350 that she only drives it for 3000 miles. The second owner of this car claims that he never had a single UA incident, and he sold his car at the original MSRP of $42,500 (a lucky [non-permissible content removed]) to NHTSA. link title
To begin the Senate questioning they had decided to allow questioning by the oldest senator first. Senator Daniel Inouye D-HI age 86 started reading stats for recalls dating back ten years to present. Everyone started to wonder what he was up to. At the end he didn't have any questions for the Toyota execs rather he stated that if we are going to question manurfacturers regarding recalls, they shouldn't single out Toyota rather it would be better to get more manufacturers in there to testify about their recalls. Guess no one briefed him that it was a witch hunt on Toyota.
>Speaking of lying ... The second owner of this car claims that he never had a single UA incident, and he sold his car at the original MSRP of $42,500 (a lucky [non-permissible content removed]) to NHTSA.
Are you suggesting the second owner is lying about never having any UA events?
Perhaps the car had "fixes" applied after it was out of ownership of the Smiths? We don't know they weren't. Perhaps the right combination of causes haven't occurred in the ownership of the second owners.
There are lots of hypotheses to consider here. Whatever, the anecdotal statement that the second owners haven't had any events proves nothing. Nichts.
Well....there were eye witnesses who saw Ms. Smith driving the Lexus. It was going a high rate of speed. And, there was smoke and flames coming from the wheel wells.
So, we know the car was going very fast via eye witnesses. We can assume she was hard on the brakes, as that's what was causing the smoke and flames coming from the wheel wells as eye witnesses stated, too.
I think it's a pretty fair assumption things happened as Ms Smith testified.
In short, whoever has possession of Ms Smith's former Lexus, they've got themselves a ticking time bomb, if Toyota hasn't reflahsed the software, yet.
I think it's a pretty fair assumption things happened as Ms Smith testified.
It is the same old story with Toyota and their cult like followers. Discredit anyone that presents negative evidence against Toyota. Discredit the CHP officer that died, Discredit Ms Smith, Discredit Dr Gilbert, Discredit anyone that files a complaint.
I did not buy a Toyota so I could find things to complain about the vehicle. $45k cash is too much money to just waste on such folly. I don't believe anyone does that. People that complain about UA without an accident involved are probably close to 100% honest about their experience. Someone that slams into a convenience store and claims the car took off on them would be a bit more suspect in my eyes.
PS There were eye witness reports on the Saylor crash that killed all four people also. They all said there was fire coming from the wheel wells when the car flew by them. Lexus needs to design brakes that can overcome the power of the engine at any speed.
There's no reason to believe that Mrs. Smith or the second owner are lying. I find it quite reasonable that these SUA incidents might occur very infrequently and only under particular circumstances, possibly requiring outside influence at the same time; powerful radio transmission, passing under power lines for example.
Additionally, there were witnesses to the Smith incident.
I could not agree more with your post. All these people with their wild speculation will tuck their tails and go back into the woodwork once the investigation is over.
I have posted before that we are becoming a nation of weak, greedy, crybabies. Certainly I don't doubt that there have been UA incidents, but there have always been and there will be more, the vast majority being caused by driver error and people trying to shirk responsibility.
I am not really a Toyota fan, but they don't deserve this.
I am not really a Toyota fan, but they don't deserve this.
They may not deserve the whole Congressional Political Zoo. They do deserve to be investigated for an inordinate number of cases of UA. If it was mostly driver error, then GM would have more than Toyota over the last 10 years. Toyota and especially Lexus has far more percentage wise over the last 10 years than GM, Ford or Chrysler.
I don't believe drivers are that much different except for Volvo drivers. :shades:
Do you think NHTSA didn't verify if the car engine, ecu, ecm are still original by comparing with the car VIN before bought it? What fixes applied in Lexus ES350 two years ago? If the fixes has been applied, then there would be no news on toyota UA or lexus ES350 accident in San Diego. I don't think so! And why the second owner lies to NHTSA if there is an issue with UA?
NHTSA intentionally bought this car to find out whether toyota electronic system, ecu/ecm, dbw, etc can cause UA as Ms. Smith or other posters in this forum believe. NHTSA is going to molest this car in A-Z ways to find out whether UA is possible.
If you can't accept this, then you are not rational.
NHTSA is going to molest this car in A-Z ways to find out whether UA is possible.
I am sure they will give it a thorough going over. The problem is we do not know if Lexus replaced any parts of the engine when Ms Smith brought it back to them. Just as the dealer replaced the Throttle Body Controller in the Avalon when the customer brought the car in with WOT. I am convinced the Killer ES350 Lexus in San Diego was a result of the wrong floor mat. There have been too many other cases since the original Floor mat recall in 2007. If after they shave off the throttle, there are still a lot of cases of UA. What then?
There are too many conspiracy theorists trying to claim Toyota is the victim. Owners of vehicles do not go out of their way to report fictitious problems. The old adage holds true here. "Where there is Smoke, there is usually Fire".
houdini, I've got no dog in this hunt. I said it before, the part that really bothers me is all the "cloak and dagger" that Toyota is doing. They somehow believe they're above our laws and regulations.
Just one example, I was looking at the slides that Inaba presented at an internal meeting last July. The very first slide had his name smack dab in the center of it. In the rest of the slide presentation, the Toyota "wins" are clearly stated over saving millions by either avoiding a NHTSA recall, or by "negotiating away" recalls.
Yet, before Congress, he testified he didn't remember the "saving millions" over non compliance with Toyota safety issues. That somehow, the presentation he obviously gave, was something given by someone else.
That's just one problem. We've heard time and again how Toyota has been trying to hide and depress safety issues, for a good long while.
What makes Toyota think they're above the same regulations and laws that the rest of the manufacturers, both foreign based, and domestically based have to comply with?
They keep making it worse and worse on themselves. Other manufacturers are probably cringing right now. What is essentially Toyota's non-compliance and problems are going to cause a new round of safety regs they're going to have to comply with.
Yet, Toyota is still trying to do damage control without correcting their obvious problems.
Don't know if this has been posted, but you can find a PDF of the slide show here....
GG, do you seriously think that it is only Toyota that attempts to negotiate with NHTSA? That is an important part of every manufacturer's job and they all do it.
Also, do you think that NHTSA would let Toyota off the hook and put American lives at risk if there was even a shred of evidence against Toyota?
People keep saying that Toyota saved 100 million dollars by not complying with safety issues, but in fact they saved that money by going before NHTSA and explaining to them that there were no compelling safety issues and NHTSA agreed with them.
Lastly, why do you think it is so unusual that someone, if they are innocent, will not come clean, step up, and make a full confession? :confuse:
houdini...here's what I do know. Toyota could have saved themselves some of this negative publicity if they would have come out and said...."look, we don't know what's causing most of the UA issues. But, we want to keep our reputation in tact. So, while we're investigating the causes, and a fix, we're going to install the brake over ride reflash to any car we've made which will accept it."
The only reason I can figure that they're resisting the brake over ride is because it constitutes a major chunk of their cash stockpile. But, they've said they're committed to the safety of their cars. Doesn't look like that to me. Plus, they'd be on much more solid ground from anyone claiming UA if they installed brake over ride. All they'd have to ask is "did you apply the brakes?" whenever it was reported.
Instead, they insulted at least a good portion of their customers by telling them the floormats were the problem. Or, that they had "sticky pedals" (when no one had even complained about the so called "sticky pedal).
Now, they've got Congress breathing down their neck. They've got the SEC taking documents from them. They've got NHTSA ripping into their "black boxes". I respect your opinion. I just don't agree with it.
The last thing I want is Congress meddling in anyone's affairs, be they personal, or corporate. In this instance, they need to be doing this because Toyota isn't going to comply with our regs and laws unless Congress forces them to.
Heck, NHTSA had to practically twist Toyota's arm to investigate UA in their vehicles to begin with, Why NHTSA let them off the hook with the silly floormat and sticky pedal idea is beyond me (and a topic for another thread). But, they did. Now it looks like NHTSA wasn't doing their job, either. LaHood was at the helm when Toyota claimed they had "negotiated" with NHTSA. So, at the very least, Lahood has to do some house cleaning and clamp down on former NHTSA employees working for Toyota.
No auto manufacturer should be able to negotiate with NHTSA for any issue....period!!!!!!
But, we want to keep our reputation in tact. So, while we're investigating the causes, and a fix, we're going to install the brake over ride reflash to any car we've made which will accept it."
I could be wrong, but I thought the above is exactly what Toyota is doing.
houdini.....the only thing I've seen from Toyota is them installing brake over ride on the new models coming off the assembly line. I think any cars other than those, they've only committed to doing the alleged "sticky pedal" and floormats.
They have been doing the brake override on any vehicle in for recall that can accept it. The people reporting continued UA issues also reported that the brake override did not function as intended.
The report of continuing problems after the brake override fix just shows me that the whole UA issue is one big hoax. Or maybe little green men from Mars are responsible.
>after the brake override fix just shows me that the whole UA issue is one big hoax. Or maybe little green men from Mars are responsible. :shades:
But the only little green men are the toyota leaders testifying!!! :P And putting out press statements about how much they care.
The guy doing 3 loops around his garage while getting the car under control was just having a dull day and wanted to do some damage so he'd have some things to repair:
"A 2008 Toyota Avalon owner said the car was backing out of a driveway a few days after being serviced "when it accelerated on its own and the car did about 3 loops around the garage area of the home causing damage to the car, benches, tree, bushes, lamp post, etc.""
I lost my respect for Toyota with our 04 Sienna. Had a bad transmission and fought Toyota for several months then got rid of it. Now, the dealer tells me it was a bad transmission. "So sorry Toyota".
I realize this is an actual problem that needs to be figured out and fixed but why can't people that are having an uncontrolled acceleration event just put the car in NEUTRAL? Or you could even shut the thing off. Everybody that drives knows how to do this yet people are flying down a road out of control with enough time to make phone calls and it never occurs to them to put it in neutral or turn it off? I don't get it. Maybe the drivers licence testing needs to address this. It makes absolutely zero sense to me. Can anyone explain this? PLEASE?!?! :confuse:
You are asking a very rational question. I think the obvious answer in most cases is panic but the witch hunters will tell you that not only does the computer cause the UA, but then it won't allow you to turn the engine off, and it won't allow you to shift into neutral, and now it won't allow the brake override to work!!
All this is spite of the fact that neither Toyota, NHTSA, or any outside testing firm has ever been able to duplicate any of that nonsense.
Testing has shown that it is possible for the floor mats to become entangled with the gas pedal and cause UA. This has surely happened on more than one occasion but the rest is just unbelievable.
There have been two cases of witnesses reporting that they have seen flames around the wheels of speeding Toyotas. I was wondering how long it would take for the tires (the apparent fuel for the fires) to burst into flame due to overheating the brakes during panic braking.
Maybe Mythbusters should do a segment.
Driver training ought to test a student on proper procedures for various emergency situations much like an instructor pilot might reach over and shut off the engine in a Cessna during training.
It's too bad it's no longer possible to take your kid to an empty snow covered parking lot to teach them what to do in a skid because the soon to be government mandated ESC will kick in and spoil things. Of course you may say that the kid wouldn't get into the skid in the first place because of ESC, but what if ESC failed? Of course cars are not supposed to accelerate by themselves either, are they?
Regards, D Q
PS While the NHTSB has required that ESC be installed on all vehicles by 2011, Toyota had installed the device on all of its SUVs as early as 2004.
new....it doesn't take long for the brakes to "flame". I personally saw it in a Lincoln that my late Father owned. His car's anti-lock brakes did the impossible. They locked up on him (another electrical gremlin). I was in the car with him when it happened. He thought the engine had a bad torque converter.
Turned out that the brakes were being applied with no interaction by him. We smelled (and then saw) the smoking brakes that eventually "flamed" up.
Regarding the new UA reports of the Toyota's with the reflash, this tells me that Toyota can't even get brake over ride done right. They've got some serious electronic gremlins that they need to get right, as they're looking mighty inept right now.
it took people a while to accept electricity, fingerprint analysis, dna testing, just to name a few things. i'm pretty sure you are ok with gravity, since it is so easily demonstrated.
2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
Push button start/stop are not that intuitive to shut down when moving. Toyota ignores miltiple presses, only ~3sec constant pressure kills the engine (per Car & Driver test). 3 sec is eternity when you are panicking.
Putting car into neutral should be easy but some shifter designs are convoluted and when driving loaner/rental with unfamiliar setup maybe hard to decipher in panic.
I agree, if all these drivers can't find neutral and panick that bad after 6 miles like some, then they should not be driving a car. I am sure most people don't even know how to check their oil level today and really don't know how to drive. :confuse:
Other than the VVT-i rubber oil line that is a clear defect which Toyota says is a campaign rather than a recall, these accelerator pedal recalls are abusrd and I refuse to buy into them. Rhonda Smith may be guilty of "embellishmet": but NOT GUILTY on creating the incident which had too many eye witnesses to agree that fire was coming from her brakes ......... Just like Mark Saylors ES350 disaster.
Why do all these credible people report SUA after the whacko gas pedal fix? Do all you morons that dismiss possible Toyota error for not installing brake override is not a problem. Forget Rhonda Smith,
what about the recent New York and Tennesse incidents ............ do you really think there is some vast conspiracy against Toyota? None have had actual accidents ...... so why bother to make up the stories.
I just want my car to be safe to drive and no more BS from Toyota. It looks like Mark Saylors (San Diego Lexus Crash) will have to appear in ghost form before Congress and tell the identical story as Rhonda Smith before anyone will believe that there might be a possilbe defect in the Toyota/Lexus ECM (electronic control module).
When lives are at stakes, I think its stupid to be loyal to toyota. My recommendation is to either buy Amerian, or if you still prefer Japanese, buy Nissan.
toyota and honda are not open about their black boxes. Of the big 3 Japanese, only Nissan is transparent enough to be open about their black boxes. This alone speaks volumes about the honesty of corporate management. I worry about honda who I wonder also follows toyota about being secretive about their black boxes.
Perhaps Nissan, unlike toyota and honda with 100% Japanese directors, have a more global board of directors. They have a mix of Japanese, Europeans, Portuguese, maybe perhaps some Americans (got to confirm this) in their board of directors. Such a diversified mix of people may explain why they are more open in their business practices.
Anyone who still sticks to toyota today, I really wonder : Is toyota so important to you, or is it more important to reduce risk to lives of loved ones ? And the fact that it turns out that toyotas have these problems as far back as 1999, means those toyota high ratings are a bunch of nonsense.
I mean sudden acceleration is a very serious issue, and I wonder how could toyota, with the most number of such problems, always achieve high rangkings in jd power, consumer reports etc. Strange I think.
Thanks for reposting Krzyss, our software doesn't handle large pics well, so I deleted your other post.
That's sort of a tricky looking setup until you realize that you can just go up from D, but even when it is a straight shot, if the shift by wire is confused, putting it into any gear may not have any effect on the transmission.
Damn, Dr.Gilbert`s report was doctored.. He superimposed screen shots of a stationary Avalon. What a cheat and fraudster.. Shame on ABC,shame on Gilbert :sick: ..
paul....there's just too much evidence that Toyota is either trying to dismiss (the thousands of customer complaints) or supress (unreadable "black box", withholding important safety related information, etc) to come to their defense.
With all of their rebates, even without all the negative publicity, people are going to be stuck with models that are undesirable and stigmas attached when they try to resell them.
There are still some dealers around my area that still won't take the affected models in on trade.
I do not have any sympathy for Toyota in their coverup. I own two Camry's-which are not involved in the recall.
My Toyota T-100 accelarated unexpectedly once, and I simply turned off the key. Never a problem after that one time. Why can't people just turn off the key or shift into neutral.
Concerning GM, how come no one is mentioning the new recall of nearly 1,000,000 GM vehicles for a power steering hose leak that can cause a fire. Isn't that significant also.
I have no problems with recalls, it is the response of the auto company that I call to question.
I just want my car to be safe to drive and no more BS from Toyota You could always sell your Toyota and buy another car:-) A lot of my co-workers sold tyotas and driving nissan, subaru and GM, all of them very happy with a new cars
Concerning GM, how come no one is mentioning the new recall of nearly 1,000,000 GM vehicles for a power steering hose leak that can cause a fire. Isn't that significant also.
We will always have recalls on problems with vehicles. It is the handling of those recalls that is in question with Toyota. If GM said the fires caused by the leaky power steering fluid was operator error there would be a lot of people going after GM. I had no idea that the Cruise Control wiring in my 99 Ranger had caused fires until I received a letter from Ford. Simple upgrade.
If Toyota would have come up with a fix for their UA back in 2002 when they started getting a lot of complaints they would not be on display Today. Instead they covered it up, coerced the NHTSA to not do any further investigations, and paid off the loudest complaints. It worked until the numbers became significantly higher than ALL other makers combined and the body count kept going up. I don't see any move by Toyota to fix their DBW system yet. Just trying to make anyone that complains look like the bad guy, and themselves the victim.
What would Mrs. Smith and the family of the deceased CHP officer have to gain by lying except to bring the full might of Toyota and the federal govt. come crashing down on top of their heads? It would be one terrible price to pay for notoriety. Toyota alone could sue them into oblivion.
as "gagrice" pointed out, if Toyota hadn't ignored the complaints from as far back as the early 2000s, they wouldn't be in the mess they've put themselves in today. And, one could make the case that the CHP officer and his family would still be alive if Toyota had addressed those issues when they first appeared.
To my knowledge, the Smith's probably lost money by selling their faulty Lexus. So, what they had to gain by testifying, under oath, in front of Congress, no less, is an unknown to me.
So, to date, by ignoring their customers complaints (and seemingly continuing to do so), Toyota has racked up billions of dollars related to faulty products and recalls. We've got deaths involved. We've got many more accidents involved. And, quite frankly, because of Toyota's continued suppression of safety related information, their bill is going to run even higher, with even more scrutiny leveled against them by gov't agencies, even from their home country.
They keep getting opportunities to open the kimono (no pun intended) to get to the bottom of all this. And, they keep rejecting those opportunities to do so.
Putting car into neutral should be easy but some shifter designs are convoluted and when driving loaner/rental with unfamiliar setup maybe hard to decipher in panic.
Unacceptable excuse for incompetent accident-prone drivers. The owner's manual is in the glove compartment of rentals/loaners. They should familiarize themselves with the vehicle, the vehicle's condition & controls prior to driving that vehicle.
Incompetence, laziness, and ignorance are no defense.
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
First, I've grown up in the era of the computer age, so I find holding a button for a few seconds to be entirely intuitive. All computers that "freeze" are able to shut down and restart in this method of holding the power button down for a few seconds, so it makes sense to me that a car would work the same then it has a push-button start feature.
Second, I'm an excellent driver and familiar with vehicles in general, so I admit I don't typically read the manual in full unless I purchase the vehicle for myself. However, I can get away with this because I check out the vehicle and overlook it before driving, and if I see a button or swtich I don't understand, I'll either ask about it or look it up (or test it while I'm parked). Also, I'm a competent driver who's not easily confused or panicked by a vehicle's functions.
If I were to ever cause an accident because I "wasn't familiar with the rental car" I certainly wouldn't blame anyone but myself unless I had read the entire owner's manual. People need to learn to read, especially if they are not experts.
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
imid....Toyota is certainly loading up the incentives for current owners. Maybe it works. Maybe it doesn't.
I've talked to an awful lot of Toyota owners who say that this ordeal has put them in the showrooms of Ford, or Nissan, or GM, or Hyundai, though.
Did a little exercise earlier in this thread. Whether your familiar with a car's controls or not, the Toyotas and Lexus that have push button start/stop has to be pushed for 3 seconds to turn off the engine while the car is moving.
Using Ms. Smith's Lexus as the example where she reached speeds of 100 MPH, she was traveling 147 feet/sec. Multiply that by the least amount of time to shut off the car (if she even knew that she had to hold down the start/stop button for 3 seconds). She would have traveled about 440 feet before the engine shut down. Figure that she had already warped the rotors and worn out the pads at that speed and length of time she was heavy on the brakes, say it took another 200 feet to stop the car (which she couldn't do until 6 miles down the road). She would have traveled the length of 2+ football fields, AT MINIMUM, while dodging the traffic in front of her, at a high rate of speed.
I don't care if you're familiar with the car, or not, that's a very scary proposition traveling in a Toy/Lex experiencing UA.
Comments
It may well be that Toyota should have dealt more aggresively with the UA issue when it first appeared, but it didn't and all manner of complaints are coming out of the woodwork, some of which are certainly not related to mechanical issues.
The media, of course, is in over its head in any area which requires a modicum of intelligence and restraint. They latch onto alleged UA deaths as enthusiastically as they do earthquake fatalities. And the spectacle of the politicians in Washington, most of whom have never worked in the real world, grilling men who have actually built something which has improved the lives of millions, is almost more than a body can stand.
And finally, where today are the kind of people who could and did climb into a wagon in St. Louis and head west on a dangerous journey into the unknown. The Conestoga wagon people probably didn't get too many complaints because their vehicles were simple and their customers actually knew how to operate them.
Regards, DQ
I hope NHTSA finds that Ms. Smith is full of it.
The second owner of this car claims that he never had a single UA incident, and he sold his car at the original MSRP of $42,500 (a lucky [non-permissible content removed]) to NHTSA.
Are you suggesting the second owner is lying about never having any UA events?
Perhaps the car had "fixes" applied after it was out of ownership of the Smiths? We don't know they weren't. Perhaps the right combination of causes haven't occurred in the ownership of the second owners.
There are lots of hypotheses to consider here. Whatever, the anecdotal statement that the second owners haven't had any events proves nothing. Nichts.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
So, we know the car was going very fast via eye witnesses. We can assume she was hard on the brakes, as that's what was causing the smoke and flames coming from the wheel wells as eye witnesses stated, too.
I think it's a pretty fair assumption things happened as Ms Smith testified.
In short, whoever has possession of Ms Smith's former Lexus, they've got themselves a ticking time bomb, if Toyota hasn't reflahsed the software, yet.
It is the same old story with Toyota and their cult like followers. Discredit anyone that presents negative evidence against Toyota. Discredit the CHP officer that died, Discredit Ms Smith, Discredit Dr Gilbert, Discredit anyone that files a complaint.
I did not buy a Toyota so I could find things to complain about the vehicle. $45k cash is too much money to just waste on such folly. I don't believe anyone does that. People that complain about UA without an accident involved are probably close to 100% honest about their experience. Someone that slams into a convenience store and claims the car took off on them would be a bit more suspect in my eyes.
PS
There were eye witness reports on the Saylor crash that killed all four people also. They all said there was fire coming from the wheel wells when the car flew by them. Lexus needs to design brakes that can overcome the power of the engine at any speed.
There's no reason to believe that Mrs. Smith or the second owner are lying.
I find it quite reasonable that these SUA incidents might occur very infrequently and only under particular circumstances, possibly requiring outside influence at the same time; powerful radio transmission, passing under power lines for example.
Additionally, there were witnesses to the Smith incident.
I have posted before that we are becoming a nation of weak, greedy, crybabies. Certainly I don't doubt that there have been UA incidents, but there have always been and there will be more, the vast majority being caused by driver error and people trying to shirk responsibility.
I am not really a Toyota fan, but they don't deserve this.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
They may not deserve the whole Congressional Political Zoo. They do deserve to be investigated for an inordinate number of cases of UA. If it was mostly driver error, then GM would have more than Toyota over the last 10 years. Toyota and especially Lexus has far more percentage wise over the last 10 years than GM, Ford or Chrysler.
I don't believe drivers are that much different except for Volvo drivers. :shades:
NHTSA intentionally bought this car to find out whether toyota electronic system, ecu/ecm, dbw, etc can cause UA as Ms. Smith or other posters in this forum believe. NHTSA is going to molest this car in A-Z ways to find out whether UA is possible.
If you can't accept this, then you are not rational.
I am sure they will give it a thorough going over. The problem is we do not know if Lexus replaced any parts of the engine when Ms Smith brought it back to them. Just as the dealer replaced the Throttle Body Controller in the Avalon when the customer brought the car in with WOT. I am convinced the Killer ES350 Lexus in San Diego was a result of the wrong floor mat. There have been too many other cases since the original Floor mat recall in 2007. If after they shave off the throttle, there are still a lot of cases of UA. What then?
There are too many conspiracy theorists trying to claim Toyota is the victim. Owners of vehicles do not go out of their way to report fictitious problems. The old adage holds true here. "Where there is Smoke, there is usually Fire".
Just one example, I was looking at the slides that Inaba presented at an internal meeting last July. The very first slide had his name smack dab in the center of it. In the rest of the slide presentation, the Toyota "wins" are clearly stated over saving millions by either avoiding a NHTSA recall, or by "negotiating away" recalls.
Yet, before Congress, he testified he didn't remember the "saving millions" over non compliance with Toyota safety issues. That somehow, the presentation he obviously gave, was something given by someone else.
That's just one problem. We've heard time and again how Toyota has been trying to hide and depress safety issues, for a good long while.
What makes Toyota think they're above the same regulations and laws that the rest of the manufacturers, both foreign based, and domestically based have to comply with?
They keep making it worse and worse on themselves. Other manufacturers are probably cringing right now. What is essentially Toyota's non-compliance and problems are going to cause a new round of safety regs they're going to have to comply with.
Yet, Toyota is still trying to do damage control without correcting their obvious problems.
Don't know if this has been posted, but you can find a PDF of the slide show here....
http://blogs.consumerreports.org/cars/2010/02/toyota-reportedly-worked-with-feds- -to-save-100-million-in-recalls-.html
Also, do you think that NHTSA would let Toyota off the hook and put American lives at risk if there was even a shred of evidence against Toyota?
People keep saying that Toyota saved 100 million dollars by not complying with safety issues, but in fact they saved that money by going before NHTSA and explaining to them that there were no compelling safety issues and NHTSA agreed with them.
Lastly, why do you think it is so unusual that someone, if they are innocent, will not come clean, step up, and make a full confession? :confuse:
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
The only reason I can figure that they're resisting the brake over ride is because it constitutes a major chunk of their cash stockpile. But, they've said they're committed to the safety of their cars. Doesn't look like that to me. Plus, they'd be on much more solid ground from anyone claiming UA if they installed brake over ride. All they'd have to ask is "did you apply the brakes?" whenever it was reported.
Instead, they insulted at least a good portion of their customers by telling them the floormats were the problem. Or, that they had "sticky pedals" (when no one had even complained about the so called "sticky pedal).
Now, they've got Congress breathing down their neck. They've got the SEC taking documents from them. They've got NHTSA ripping into their "black boxes".
I respect your opinion. I just don't agree with it.
The last thing I want is Congress meddling in anyone's affairs, be they personal, or corporate. In this instance, they need to be doing this because Toyota isn't going to comply with our regs and laws unless Congress forces them to.
Heck, NHTSA had to practically twist Toyota's arm to investigate UA in their vehicles to begin with, Why NHTSA let them off the hook with the silly floormat and sticky pedal idea is beyond me (and a topic for another thread). But, they did. Now it looks like NHTSA wasn't doing their job, either. LaHood was at the helm when Toyota claimed they had "negotiated" with NHTSA. So, at the very least, Lahood has to do some house cleaning and clamp down on former NHTSA employees working for Toyota.
No auto manufacturer should be able to negotiate with NHTSA for any issue....period!!!!!!
I could be wrong, but I thought the above is exactly what Toyota is doing.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/RunawayToyotas/toyota-recall-fix-working-drivers-f- ederal-safety-agency/story?id=10004076
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
>after the brake override fix just shows me that the whole UA issue is one big hoax. Or maybe little green men from Mars are responsible. :shades:
But the only little green men are the toyota leaders testifying!!! :P And putting out press statements about how much they care.
The guy doing 3 loops around his garage while getting the car under control was just having a dull day and wanted to do some damage so he'd have some things to repair:
"A 2008 Toyota Avalon owner said the car was backing out of a driveway a few days after being serviced "when it accelerated on its own and the car did about 3 loops around the garage area of the home causing damage to the car, benches, tree, bushes, lamp post, etc.""
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
All this is spite of the fact that neither Toyota, NHTSA, or any outside testing firm has ever been able to duplicate any of that nonsense.
Testing has shown that it is possible for the floor mats to become entangled with the gas pedal and cause UA. This has surely happened on more than one occasion but the rest is just unbelievable.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
Maybe Mythbusters should do a segment.
Driver training ought to test a student on proper procedures for various emergency situations much like an instructor pilot might reach over and shut off the engine in a Cessna during training.
It's too bad it's no longer possible to take your kid to an empty snow covered parking lot to teach them what to do in a skid because the soon to be government mandated ESC will kick in and spoil things. Of course you may say that the kid wouldn't get into the skid in the first place because of ESC, but what if ESC failed? Of course cars are not supposed to accelerate by themselves either, are they?
Regards, D Q
PS While the NHTSB has required that ESC be installed on all vehicles by 2011, Toyota had installed the device on all of its SUVs as early as 2004.
Turned out that the brakes were being applied with no interaction by him. We smelled (and then saw) the smoking brakes that eventually "flamed" up.
Regarding the new UA reports of the Toyota's with the reflash, this tells me that Toyota can't even get brake over ride done right. They've got some serious electronic gremlins that they need to get right, as they're looking mighty inept right now.
i'm pretty sure you are ok with gravity, since it is so easily demonstrated.
Toyota ignores miltiple presses, only ~3sec constant pressure kills the engine (per Car & Driver test).
3 sec is eternity when you are panicking.
Putting car into neutral should be easy but some shifter designs are convoluted and when driving loaner/rental with unfamiliar setup maybe hard to decipher in panic.
Krzys
Why do all these credible people report SUA after the whacko gas pedal fix? Do all you morons that dismiss possible Toyota error for not installing brake override is not a problem. Forget Rhonda Smith,
what about the recent New York and Tennesse incidents ............ do you really think there is some vast conspiracy against Toyota? None have had actual accidents ...... so why bother to make up the stories.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/35690247/ns/business-autos/
http://www.evri.com/location/whitesville-ky-0xce60e
http://www.evri.com/media/article?article_index=1&entity_uri=%2Flocation%2Fwhite- - - sville-kentucky-0xce60e&page=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.dispatch.com%2Flive%2Fcontent%2Fbu- - - siness%2Fstories%2F2010%2F03%2F04%2Ftoyota-repairs-may-not-do-the-trick.html&[non-permissible content removed]- - - le=Toyota+repairs+may+not+do+the+trick
I just want my car to be safe to drive and no more BS from Toyota. It looks like Mark Saylors (San Diego Lexus Crash) will have to appear in ghost form before Congress and tell the identical story as Rhonda Smith before anyone will believe that there might be a possilbe defect in the Toyota/Lexus ECM (electronic control module).
Lots of photos and stories here :
http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-toyota-deaths-list28-2010feb28-pictures,0,- 131320.photogallery
When lives are at stakes, I think its stupid to be loyal to toyota. My recommendation is to either buy Amerian, or if you still prefer Japanese, buy Nissan.
toyota and honda are not open about their black boxes. Of the big 3 Japanese, only Nissan is transparent enough to be open about their black boxes. This alone speaks volumes about the honesty of corporate management. I worry about honda who I wonder also follows toyota about being secretive about their black boxes.
Perhaps Nissan, unlike toyota and honda with 100% Japanese directors, have a more global board of directors. They have a mix of Japanese, Europeans, Portuguese, maybe perhaps some Americans (got to confirm this) in their board of directors. Such a diversified mix of people may explain why they are more open in their business practices.
Anyone who still sticks to toyota today, I really wonder : Is toyota so important to you, or is it more important to reduce risk to lives of loved ones ? And the fact that it turns out that toyotas have these problems as far back as 1999, means those toyota high ratings are a bunch of nonsense.
I mean sudden acceleration is a very serious issue, and I wonder how could toyota, with the most number of such problems, always achieve high rangkings in jd power, consumer reports etc. Strange I think.
Krzys
That's sort of a tricky looking setup until you realize that you can just go up from D, but even when it is a straight shot, if the shift by wire is confused, putting it into any gear may not have any effect on the transmission.
http://content.usatoday.com/communities/driveon/post/2010/03/did-abc-news-doctor- - -its-report-on-runaway-toyota-tests/1?csp=hf
http://gawker.com/5486666/how-abc-news-brian-ross-staged-his-toyota-death-ride
http://www.news-press.com/article/20100228/BUSINESS/2280351/Toyota-resale-values- -survive-recall-debacle
With all of their rebates, even without all the negative publicity, people are going to be stuck with models that are undesirable and stigmas attached when they try to resell them.
There are still some dealers around my area that still won't take the affected models in on trade.
Toyota needs to make those people whole, too.
My Toyota T-100 accelarated unexpectedly once, and I simply turned off the key. Never a problem after that one time. Why can't people just turn off the key or shift into neutral.
Concerning GM, how come no one is mentioning the new recall of nearly 1,000,000 GM vehicles for a power steering hose leak that can cause a fire. Isn't that significant also.
I have no problems with recalls, it is the response of the auto company that I call to question.
Brad
You could always sell your Toyota and buy another car:-) A lot of my co-workers sold tyotas and driving nissan, subaru and GM, all of them very happy with a new cars
We will always have recalls on problems with vehicles. It is the handling of those recalls that is in question with Toyota. If GM said the fires caused by the leaky power steering fluid was operator error there would be a lot of people going after GM. I had no idea that the Cruise Control wiring in my 99 Ranger had caused fires until I received a letter from Ford. Simple upgrade.
If Toyota would have come up with a fix for their UA back in 2002 when they started getting a lot of complaints they would not be on display Today. Instead they covered it up, coerced the NHTSA to not do any further investigations, and paid off the loudest complaints. It worked until the numbers became significantly higher than ALL other makers combined and the body count kept going up. I don't see any move by Toyota to fix their DBW system yet. Just trying to make anyone that complains look like the bad guy, and themselves the victim.
To my knowledge, the Smith's probably lost money by selling their faulty Lexus. So, what they had to gain by testifying, under oath, in front of Congress, no less, is an unknown to me.
So, to date, by ignoring their customers complaints (and seemingly continuing to do so), Toyota has racked up billions of dollars related to faulty products and recalls. We've got deaths involved. We've got many more accidents involved. And, quite frankly, because of Toyota's continued suppression of safety related information, their bill is going to run even higher, with even more scrutiny leveled against them by gov't agencies, even from their home country.
They keep getting opportunities to open the kimono (no pun intended) to get to the bottom of all this. And, they keep rejecting those opportunities to do so.
They feel the past record, deserved or undeserved, will carry them through.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Unacceptable excuse for incompetent accident-prone drivers. The owner's manual is in the glove compartment of rentals/loaners. They should familiarize themselves with the vehicle, the vehicle's condition & controls prior to driving that vehicle.
Incompetence, laziness, and ignorance are no defense.
Krzys
Second, I'm an excellent driver and familiar with vehicles in general, so I admit I don't typically read the manual in full unless I purchase the vehicle for myself. However, I can get away with this because I check out the vehicle and overlook it before driving, and if I see a button or swtich I don't understand, I'll either ask about it or look it up (or test it while I'm parked). Also, I'm a competent driver who's not easily confused or panicked by a vehicle's functions.
If I were to ever cause an accident because I "wasn't familiar with the rental car" I certainly wouldn't blame anyone but myself unless I had read the entire owner's manual. People need to learn to read, especially if they are not experts.
Not always - the Kia I had a couple of months ago didn't have one. The Caravan before that did. Seems hit or miss.
I do take a few minutes in a rental car (or on a test drive) to get the mirrors set, figure out where the wipers are, etc.
I've talked to an awful lot of Toyota owners who say that this ordeal has put them in the showrooms of Ford, or Nissan, or GM, or Hyundai, though.
Did a little exercise earlier in this thread. Whether your familiar with a car's controls or not, the Toyotas and Lexus that have push button start/stop has to be pushed for 3 seconds to turn off the engine while the car is moving.
Using Ms. Smith's Lexus as the example where she reached speeds of 100 MPH, she was traveling 147 feet/sec. Multiply that by the least amount of time to shut off the car (if she even knew that she had to hold down the start/stop button for 3 seconds). She would have traveled about 440 feet before the engine shut down. Figure that she had already warped the rotors and worn out the pads at that speed and length of time she was heavy on the brakes, say it took another 200 feet to stop the car (which she couldn't do until 6 miles down the road). She would have traveled the length of 2+ football fields, AT MINIMUM, while dodging the traffic in front of her, at a high rate of speed.
I don't care if you're familiar with the car, or not, that's a very scary proposition traveling in a Toy/Lex experiencing UA.