> I'm sure GM specified that Toyota give them the parts they make for 25% less cost than they charge themselves and of course with 50% less quality than Toyota would mandate for their vehicles.
Do you have a link for that? Otherwise, it's not rational. And since it's off the topic of Toyota's problems, I won't respond further.
Right now, buying a Toyota and buying a lemon are one of the same. Buy it and drive it at your own risk; whether it won't stop, accelerates suddenly, or for whatever is still causing the underling issue
I live in an 11-unit building (townhome/condo like) and in the parking lot I'd say there's about 66% Toyotas (including a Scion, and most units have 2 parking spaces and cars). I asked my neighbors if they've had any funny UA issues and none of them have had any.
My parents own a Lexus and a Toyota, my brother a Toyota (serveral times in a row), and none of them have reported any issues.
Where are the lemons?
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
Your right, but when someone makes a statement like I and my family have owned GM vehicles in the past, and they were terrible cars in terms of reliability, it requires some explanation due to being just a vague opinionated statement.
The fact here is Toyota has continued to cover up a safety defect on millions of its cars and trucks on the road today. They tried to blame the owner (now that is really pathetic), then the supplier, then the floor mats, then the pedals, and now owners are STILL reporting the problem after Toyota tried to spin their so called pedal fix.
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - U.S. regulators on Wednesday reviewed 10 complaints that fixes made to recalled Toyota Motor Corp vehicles did not resolve unintended acceleration.
Still have it sitting in the garage and hoping that a buyback program is put in place. I don't know which is worse, putting myself at risk if I were to drive the car or the others around me on the road who would be effected with the sudden acceleration.
The sad thing is people thing Toyota can or should only be trusted at this point given their record? They have lied, lied, and lied about this entire situation; trying to blame everyone else besides Toyota. So now they say they had a fix which is now proving to be yet another lie. :lemon:
Despite assurances by Toyota executives that safety recalls are solving its potentially fatal car problems, 10 new complaints submitted to the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration charge that the recall fix is not working and that problems with sudden acceleration have continued.
The new post-recall complaints were first noted in a report by Safety Research & Strategies (SRS), a private research firm based in Rehoboth, Mass. Among the complaints detailed by SRS was a driver who said that even though her 2009 Toyota Matrix had its brakes and pas pedal serviced Feb. 10, the car was still uncontrollable Feb. 26.
"I was driving about 5 MPH in a parking area with my son," the woman wrote to NHTSA. "I put my foot on the brake and I felt the car push forward& My son said "It's doing it again Mom!"
A 2008 Toyota Avalon owner said the car was backing out of a driveway a few days after being serviced "when it accelerated on its own and the car did about 3 loops around the garage area of the home causing damage to the car, benches, tree, bushes, lamp post, etc."
Another complaint says a 2010 Toyota Camry surged suddenly just five days after having its recall work done.
According to SRS, "Toyota executives are confident that their recalls will end the SUA complaints - they've said that into every microphone that's been put in front of them. Some consumers who have taken their recalled vehicles in for the fix have a different story."
In response to the new complaints, Toyota said it is "confident that Toyota vehicles are safe" and has "received the needed information to contact four of the concerned vehicle owners and are making preparations to quickly investigate their concerns."
Former ABC News producer Stewart Stogel said his 2009 Toyota Camry continues to surge, even though a Toyota dealer performed all the recall procedures.
The dealer's repair statement says that in addition to modifying the car's gas pedal, the computer in the vehicle was reprogrammed to install a brake over-ride that is supposed to kill the acceleration.
Still, "the car has lurched out of control on at least one occasion since the fix," Stogel said.
Honda and Toyota were in a league of their own in the 80's and 90's and early 2000's. When it came to quality and durability, no one else could come close. They owned reliability on the charts.
Nissan was good, but WAY below Honda and Toyota. The Europeans were well below the Japanese, and the AMerican companies where WAY WAY WAY below even that. If you have a chart, it would probably have to be ten feet high to demonstrate the differences in quality accurately. You'd have Honda and toyota at 10' high, The Europeans (before the Chrysler merger debacle) at about 5' high, Nissan at 7', and the Domestic 2 at 2 feet with Chrysler at 0.
Reputations come from people's own experiences, not from magazines. You have it backwards if you think Consumer Reports can be "lobbied." They just tell it how it is, and the consumers tell them how it was.
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
So wait, you have a car in the garage that you won't drive, apparently won't fix and you're waiting for a "buyback program" which, with all due respect, will never happen?
Didn't another poster here on Edmunds offer to buy your car? And you turned him down? :confuse:
I'm not going to accuse you of lying or distrust but you don't find it strange that every single post (and it's duplicates in numerous threads), whether it be some scathing anti-Toyota piece or dirt dug up from other newsreels on the other side of the Country (along with outrageous hysteria calls for people to actually be scared of Toyota vehicles), come off as well, over the top? I mean there is nothing you have posted that has incling of you being a "Car enthusiast" or even care to engage in the Automotive discussions outside of OMG, it's a Toyota, run for your lives!!!
Pardon me but I get the suspicions that there is propoganda at play here...
Even the most devoted Toyota naysayers (you know who you are ) have petrol running through their veins and are willing to have a level headed discussion about all makes including Toyo. They also have great taste in the classics (something which I am too young to have experienced) as well which brings up even more entertaining discussions
and finally, kudos to andres3 for making some of the most intelligent postings I've seen in a while!
Thanks!!!
It's good to know some here are really paying attention and reading what is written.
Forums sometimes seem to get filled with people that are hysterical and irrational. I try to keep rational and factual. They say a picture is worth a 1,000 words. Well, I believe real life experience is worth a million words.
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
Most people experiencing it, as in the past, go to the dealer where they are told the dealer has never heard of it, there's no record in the computer system, so go drive the car; it's perfectly safe. Most owners of toyota aren't posting on forums in Edmunds.
Ad from here on the page with the forum: the lady has owned the car 1 full month!!! Is she an expert?
obyone says, "I agree it is unfortunate that the people experiencing SUA don't post here." That's because percentage-wise, their number is SO tiny.
I experienced SUA once in my 2004 Honda Civic Hybrid, but not in a dangerous manner. It was on a city street when I had just turned a corner and downshifted to speed up a little bit.
Just happened once, no big deal, and I virtually forgot about it until today.
It was a manual shift tranny, so when it happened I just put it into neutral and pumped the pedal once and the revving stopped. Not sure if it was a "physical" or "electronic" thing.
How about they check back with poor Iris after a couple thousand of miles and see if she feels the same; that is if her car doesn't suddenly accelerate out of control beforehand. :shades:
That 8 year gap between 79 and 87 were probably their worse years. What did you drive during that period. I had a couple of Olds duds during that time (Company cars).
hey revit, I know you didn't ask me but I can help answer your question! I was with GM for over 25 years and had problem after problem with 8 different models all requiring tens of thousands of dollars of repair work in those 25 years all before 80k miles! here is the list! My Malibu's were the last straw with GM when each one had multiple problems having to be towed to the dealership even BEFORE the factory warranties expired!
I was with GM for almost 30 years (1979-2005) and I had 8 different models with GM over those years
1979 Chevrolet Chevette :lemon: 1984 Oldsmobile Cutlass :lemon: 1990 Buick Skylark :lemon: 1992 Buick Century :lemon: 1994 Chevrolet Lumina :lemon: 1997 Pontiac Grand Am :lemon: 2001 Chevrolet Malibu :lemon: 2004 Chevrolet Malibu :lemon:
Just to give you one quick example of the hell I went through, I was on my fifth alternator and timing belt on my 1990 Skylark when I got rid of it at 10 yrs old :sick: Guy I sold it too works with me and kept it for another 3.5 years and he went through 2 more alternators before the car finally became scrap metal :sick:
Sorry to be bringing up GM in a Toyota forum but everyone else is so I guess its okay!
I see there are still a lot of people posting and calling Toyota drivers idiots, fools, dunces and losers and generally making fun of them. How polite is that? The sky is falling, the sky is falling is their refrain.
Why are they allowed to insult some of the members here? Is it good for Edmunds' business?
I did very, very well with GM cars 20 years ago and still do very well to this day!
I can at least back up the fact that I've owned many GM cars:
1968 Buick Special Deluxe 1975 Cadillac Sedan DeVille 1979 Buick Park Avenue 1979 Oldsmobile Ninety-Eight Regency 1987 Chevrolet Caprice Classic 1988 Buick Park Avenue 1989 Cadillac Brougham 1994 Cadillac DeVille 2002 Cadillac Seville STS 2007 Cadillac DTS Performance
All have been super-reliable!
wow, consider yourself really lucky man, I had the complete opposite experience with poor quality and reliability with the 8 GM's I had over a 25yr period; the list is above in another post! I noticed though, you had much more higher end GM products compared to mine; I had mostly low to mid-level products; maybe GM spent more time making sure they put their more expensive vehicles together and said to hell with the lower cheaper end models :confuse:
Still have it sitting in the garage and hoping that a buyback program is put in place. I don't know which is worse, putting myself at risk if I were to drive the car or the others around me on the road who would be effected with the sudden acceleration.
You could push it into a lake and then write it off as a casualty loss... :shades:
no, there is nothing wrong with the link I provided, I saw the same information repeated on several other sites yesterday when I was on but I been to so many different sites for various subject matter that I don't remember all the addresses!
what is your persistent badgering me about this? I don't get it? I'm sure if you go to any of the manufacturer's website YOURSELF, you might find a break down of fleet sales! those two articles I posted that gave those numbers said that those were the number given and reported to them BY THE MANUFACTURER'S!! why would each car manufacturer want to make up those numbers?
I guess you just can't accept the fact the numbers and facts don't support your weird 1/3rd claim?
if you think there is something wrong with the information why don't you go and speak to the people and companies providing the information?
i know a lot of people like to dump on the vendors that provide parts to the OEM manufacturers. some of them a quite excellent. here is a story i have about dealing with one of them. about 4 years ago, i bought a rear view mirror with a compass and temp display for my wife's escape. the same company supplies the same items for honda, toyota, etc... i ordered it throught the dealer and asked before i ordered it, how much would the installation labor be? i was told an hour, so i followed through with the purchase. when the mirror arrived, i scheduled an appointment with the service department and brought the vehicle in as scheduled. later that day, they call me and say they can't install the mirror because they don't know how! i take the car back and go to another dealer, show them the mirror and ask how much to install? they say we don't know how to do it, we don't have exact directions, so 3 hours. i go back to dealer #1 and they say as soon as they can figure it out by getting installation instructions, they will install it, but give me a loaner in the mean time. ok, i'll go with that. just for laughs, i call the vendor, talk to the receptionist and explain my issue. she says i will connect you with someone who can help you. i tell this guy my issue, he says i and looking at the exact instructions for your vehicle on my computer, so i will print them and mail them to you. i say, if you see them on your computer, can you email them to me? he says are you ok with .PDF's? are you kidding? send em! i was back at the dealer in less than an hour with the directions, you should have seen their faces! after 4 days, me driving the free loaner the whole time, the dealer asked me if it would be ok if they charged me 2 hours labor? i said it was fair. the mirror itself is much better than the oem, and still works perfectly.
2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
And my own experience tells me that Nissan and Honda are above Toyota. There! My immediate family own 4 Nissans (1983, 1997, 2007, 2009 ). All great vehicles.
SOUTHLAKE, Texas – Toyota has for years blocked access to data stored in devices similar to airline "black boxes" that could explain crashes blamed on sudden unintended acceleration, according to an Associated Press review of lawsuits nationwide and interviews with auto crash experts.
The AP investigation found that Toyota has been inconsistent — and sometimes even contradictory — in revealing exactly what the devices record and don't record, including critical data about whether the brake or accelerator pedals were depressed at the time of a crash.
By contrast, most other automakers routinely allow much more open access to information from their event data recorders, commonly known as EDRs.
AP also found that Toyota:
• Has frequently refused to provide key information sought by crash victims and survivors.
• Uses proprietary software in its EDRs. Until this week, there was only a single laptop in the U.S. containing the software needed to read the data following a crash.
• In some lawsuits, when pressed to provide recorder information Toyota either settled or provided printouts with the key columns blank.
Toyota's "black box" information is emerging as a critical legal issue amid the recall of 8 million vehicles by the world's largest automaker. The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration said this week that 52 people have died in crashes linked to accelerator problems, triggering an avalanche of lawsuits.
When Toyota was asked by the AP to explain what exactly its recorders do collect, a company statement said Thursday that the devices record data from five seconds before until two seconds after an air bag is deployed in a crash.
The statement said information is captured about vehicle speed, the accelerator's angle, gear shift position, whether the seat belt was used and the angle of the driver's seat.
There was no initial mention of brakes — a key point in the sudden acceleration problem. When AP went back to Toyota to ask specifically about brake information, Toyota responded that its EDRs do, in fact, record "data on the brake's position and the antilock brake system."
But that does not square with information obtained by attorneys in a deadly crash last year in Southlake, Texas, and in a 2004 accident in Indiana that killed an elderly woman.
In the Texas crash, where four people died when their 2008 Avalon ripped through a fence, hit a tree and flipped into an icy pond, an EDR readout obtained by police listed as "off" any information on acceleration or braking.
In the 2004 crash in Evansville, Ind., that killed 77-year-old Juanita Grossman, attorneys for her family say a Toyota technician traveled from the company's U.S. headquarters in Torrance, Calif., to examine her 2003 Camry.
Before she died, the 5-foot-2, 125-pound woman told relatives she was practically standing with both feet on the brake pedal but could not stop the car from slamming into a building. Records confirm that emergency personnel found Grossman with both feet on the brake pedal.
A Toyota representative told the family's attorneys there was "no sensor that would have preserved information regarding the accelerator and brake positions at the time of impact," according to a summary of the case provided by Safety Research & Strategies Inc., a Rehoboth, Mass.-based company that does vehicle safety research for attorneys, engineers, government and others.
One attorney in the Texas case contends in court documents that Toyota may have deliberately stopped allowing its EDRs to collect critical information so the Japanese automaker would not be forced to reveal it in court cases.
I live close to Long Island. This picture does not prove anything. The older driver crashing the Camry into a wall could have hit the accelerator pedal by accident. The car could have been any make. Just because it is a Toyota do we automatically assume it is SUA? It seems rather peculiar that so many cases or rather claims of Toyota SUA are from elderly drivers over the age of 70. No offense to elderly drivers of course. From my experience it is the Generation X and Y drivers in the New York area that are the most aggressive drivers. But yet the media does not seem to publish many complaints of Toyota SUA from Generation Y'ers.
Here is a Toyota internal July 6 2009 slide presentation from Inaba (who was at congressional hearing). The second to last slide titled Key Safety Issues includes Sudden Acceleration on multiple models. Inaba and Toyoda testified that the first they were aware of a sudden acceleration issue was in November.
The last slide titled Toyota Wins, under Defects says "negotiated...no defect found" for Sudden Acceleration saving $100 million. During the hearing, Inaba testified that he was not aware of any claimed savings of $100 million for negotiating a deal with NHTSA. Internal Toyota Documents Related To Recall
Inaba said under oath that Toyota would provide 3 black box readers to NHTSA yesterday and have another 100 units available by the end of April and another 150 on the following month.
Yea, for those who say its the US government ploy to bring down toyota because now they own big stakes in GM etc is missing the point completely. I can understand what the government is doing. They are deeply concerned because we have now plenty of evidence that its toyota's ATTITUDE problem that is endangering many lives. I mean, to err is human, recalls are a part of the car industry.
But you don't get info showing honda and nissan covering things up, not being open during investigations etc. If the government really wants to help GM, they will also have " gone after " nissan and honda, also hyundai, these 3 also have big sales in the US right ? Then why only toyota executives are " grilled " ? Because they deserve to be grilled.
I think congress is too kind to them. They did not even question them abt the other points in their secret document. Only the 100 million camry savings issue is raised. Yet people say congress should have done something more useful. I beg to disagree. Congress is way too lame on toyota. Maybe many of them own toyotas ?
I don't mind working with a guy with average intelligence so long as he is open and honest. But working with a smart guy who later turned out to be sneaky and cunning, now thats scary, because when things go wrong, he just won't tell you the full inside story.
I agree with you. There are plenty of aggressive and poorly trained drivers driving around and physically unsafe driver. Also with elderly drivers, some of them should not be driving due to poor vision or medications that they are on. I work in a Hospital and have come across patients in their late 70's to 80's who could barely walk but still have a driver's license and drives. I have nothing against elderly drivers, but if you are not able to drive safely, you should not be behind the wheel of an automobile. For those that look for a quick excuse when they crash their Toyota, they can always blame it on SUA. As for myself, I am not going to speculate and blame a company that builds reliable cars that I am happy with owning :shades: . Human errors are usually the cause of most car accidents.
I see there are still a lot of people posting and calling Toyota drivers idiots, fools, dunces and losers and generally making fun of them. How polite is that?
That would be the Toyota worshippers that believe any problem with a Toyota is caused by a stupid, ignorant, malcontent, incompetent boob of a driver. It cannot be an electronic or other failure with their beloved Toyotas. Of course most of those types drive Toyotas because Toyota has more UA complaints than ALL OTHER MAKES COMBINED.
Oh and Toyota and their dealers feel the same way about people that buy their cars. If you complain your told that it isn't the car. Its a Toyota and Toyotas are perfect.
By Stuart Pfeifer, Carol J. Williams and Robert Faturechi
February 28, 2010
[u][b]Crash reports tell of horror Sudden and unexpected speed is a common thread in accounts of fatal wrecks involving Toyota vehicles, some of which haven't been recalled[/b][/u]
[b]One car barreled through a stop sign, struck a tree and landed upside down in a Texas lake, drowning four people. Another tore across an Indiana street and crashed into a jewelry store. A third raced at an estimated 100 mph on a San Bernardino County street before striking a telephone pole, killing a restaurant owner.[/b]
At least 56 people have died in U.S. traffic accidents in which sudden unintended acceleration of Toyota Motor Corp. vehicles has been alleged, according to a Times review of public records and interviews with authorities.
[b]Most died while doing the mundane: returning to work after lunch, shopping, driving to the bank to make a deposit. The deaths occurred in big cities and small towns throughout the U.S.: Los Angeles; Tucson; Auburn, N.Y.; Marietta, Ga. The stories are told in court filings, federal accident complaints and police reports.[/b]
In the last decade, the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration has received complaints of 34 fatalities related to sudden acceleration of Toyota vehicles, far more than for any other automaker. At least 22 additional deaths related to Toyota acceleration problems have been alleged in lawsuits and police reports.
The NHTSA database does not determine whether the complaints are valid, and none of the allegations have been proved in court. Still, the increase in the number of people who publicly blame Toyota vehicles for deaths and injuries comes at a difficult time for the world's largest automaker, which in recent months has issued nearly 10 million safety recall notices on vehicles worldwide.
Toyota spokesman Brian Lyons declined to comment for this report, saying the company does not discuss cases in which litigation has been, or may be, filed. The company has said it is confident that all models with potentially sticking pedals have been identified and that the recalls will address all problems.
In the last week, Toyota has become the focus of a U.S. criminal investigation related to its handling of safety issues; its president apologized before a congressional committee; [b]and an internal memo was released in which Toyota executives boasted about saving money by averting recalls.[/b]
'Look of terror'
[b]Umni Suk Chung screamed, "No brakes! No brakes! No brakes!" as her Lexus RX330 sped along the shoulder of the 10 Freeway in West Los Angeles on a deadly collision course.[/b]
[b]Chung's luxury SUV was going nearly 80 mph when it smashed into a Mercedes sedan on the Overland Avenue exit ramp. The Lexus overturned, killing Chung's sister-in-law, Esook Synn, who was seated in the back seat. Chung and another passenger were badly injured.[/b]
A woman who said she witnessed the accident said that she could see a "look of terror" in Chung's face just moments before the Dec. 15, 2008, crash.
"They looked like they lost control of the car. The car did not look like it was decelerating at all, as if the accelerator was stuck or something," the woman wrote on the Los Angeles Fire Department website.
Chung and Synn, both Torrance residents, had been returning to work at a real estate office after having lunch at a Korean restaurant.
Synn, 69, was survived by her husband, Kyung; a son, Gordon; and a daughter, Aimee.
"It's heartbreaking for us to know how scared or terrified she must have been because of the way the accident happened. It breaks our heart," Gordon Synn said.
Synn's relatives have retained an attorney, Larry Grassini, who said he believes an electronic system malfunction caused the vehicle to accelerate while rendering the brakes useless. [b]The Lexus RX330 is not among the models recently recalled by Toyota for problems linked to unintended acceleration.[/b]
Toyota officials analyzed data from the Lexus' "black box" and determined it was traveling 78 mph at the time of the crash, according to a report by the California Highway Patrol.
Eleven months after the crash, the Los Angeles County district attorney's office [b]charged Chung with gross vehicular manslaughter without alcohol impairment as well as reckless driving causing injury, both felonies. Now 62, Chung faces up to six years in prison if convicted. Before the accident, she had a clean driving record, according to the CHP report.[/b]
[b]"This case got filed and investigated before anybody knew about the problems with these Toyotas," said Richard Hutton, Chung's attorney.[/b]
"It's been hell for her," he said. "She feels bad enough that people were hurt and a relative was killed. Hopefully this case will get thrown out."
'My accelerator stuck'
Paramedics found Juanita Grossman with both feet still pressing the brake pedal.
[b]Alert but critically injured, she said her 2003 Toyota Camry had inexplicably accelerated March 16, 2004, as she left a drive-through pharmacy, racing across a busy street and slamming into a jewelry store in Evansville, Ind.[/b]
[b]"It was like a car on a slingshot. She was slung across the street into that building," said her son, Bill.[/b]
[b]Grossman, 77, died six days after the accident at a local hospital. In the days before her death, she described a car with a mind of its own, racing forward as she sat helpless behind the wheel, her feet jamming the brakes without effect, her son said.[/b]
"First thing she said was, 'My accelerator stuck,' " recalled her son. "She kept emphatically saying that the accelerator stuck on her."
Grossman is survived by two children, four grandchildren and two great-grandchildren. The Indiana woman worked for an accounting company and was active in her church. Her son remembered her as principled and thorough, making to-do lists and never forgetting a birthday or anniversary.
[b]The 2003 Toyota Camry is not among the models recently recalled by Toyota.[/b] After the accident, the family considered taking legal action against the company. They decided against it, worried that the legal costs would overwhelm them.
"It would've been the giant versus the little guy," Bill Grossman said.
Holiday horror
On the day after Christmas 2009, Monty Hardy and three members of his church were proselytizing in a Dallas suburb, spreading their faith door to door. [b]The four Jehovah's Witnesses were traveling in Hardy's 2008 Toyota Avalon about 30 mph on a residential street when the car suddenly accelerated, raced through a stop sign and left the road, crashing into a fence and tree and landing upside down in a small lake, according to a police report.
Finally ........... a good excuse for ditching the boring (but thus far trouble free) 09V6LE Camry (like the guy in New York whose 09LE almost killed him in SUA incident AFTER the gas pedal recall fix) ...... in favor of a Ford F150 4X4 5.4L V8 crew cab.
I have already declined the floormat recall. Before selling, I'll get the brake override done (yes I have my recall letter .... ...... and the VVT-i oil line recalll ... but the dealer is "too busy" to take before 3-15-10. For the sake of the next owner, I'll change the oil with Castrol Edge 5W30 so he or she won't have to deal with the dealership for a full year. (wait ....... that assumes anyone would buy the potential deathtrap)
Toyota can't even get the oil cap correct. It says use SL oil ....... no such thing. The API went to SM in 2004. And the owner's manual says 6.4 quarts which puts the dipsstick way over the full marker. Actual cranckase capactiy is 6.0 quarts. Toyota can't even get the dipstick right ...... virtually iimpossible to read with a hot engine and can only be read after an overnight shutdown.
Your link and quotes make me feel confident that the gas pedal shaving and shim is pure BS so will decline that as well. Floormats are secured by a hook and are 5 inches from accelerator pedal. I feel lucky to be alive. Got rear ended by a Dodge Minivan a month ago in an ice storm ........ my car: minor damage, her car:: totalled. Her ins paid for my truck rental ........ too bad I fell in love with it!!!!!!!!
Thanks Enterprise rental for being out of cars and only having 4WD trucks available!! Great excuse for getting out of the Toyota mode.
Thanks goodness wife's 02 ES has a key to turn off engine in event of SUA! 70K miles with no warranty claimes, no repairs, and her first brake job not due according to dealer until 75K. .... we planned to buy a 2012 next gen Lexus ES ....... looks like she might be getting a Fusion instead.
Sorry for the rant......... just thought the nighmare automobile horror stories were over after switching to Toyota/Lexus . WRONG. Gimme a "made in Mexico" Ford anyday.
Lexus ES ....... looks like she might be getting a Fusion instead Smart move, bro, who knows what else Toyota hides from the owners. I changed my Lexus IS350 to Subary 3.6R.
I kept the 1979 cars a long time. Ironically, both were victims of major accidents. I crashed the Buick on a rainy night on Rte 23 outside of Phoenixville, PA and the Olds was rear-ended by a box truck in West Philly. Both had the awesome 403 V-8 that wasn't available after that year. Cadillac should've stuck with the 425 V-8 and told those eco-weenies to take a hike until a suitable replacement could be developed. The 368 V-8 for 1980 wasn't a bad engine, but the V-8-6-4 based on the 368 was a disaster and the HT4100 4.1 litre V-8 was a real dog!
About the only car on your list I would've considered was the 1984 Oldsmobile Cutlass provided it was a 307 V-8 coupe. That was a beautiful car! The 1981-1987 Buick Regal coupe was also an attractive ride.
Can't see why you went through so many alternators. I did finally have to replace the alternator on my 1989 Cadillac Brougham last June after 20+ years and close to 158K miles!
Of course most of those types drive Toyotas because Toyota has more UA complaints than ALL OTHER MAKES COMBINED.
Not so fast. When you dig deeper into the NHTSA complaints database and compare complaints by model vs. sales, you get some very interesting results, courtesy of Edmunds and The Truth About Cars.
For one, the Camry has far fewer complaints per units sold than the identical-under-the-skin Lexus ES. For another, maybe Lincoln Town Car owners should be worried.
TTAC commends Edmunds: A big hat tip to Edmunds, who has taken a lead in the quest to make sense of the data as well as the whole UA fiasco.
Yeah, analysis instead of hysterics! What a concept!
Right, and I understand Consumer Reports within a matter of days is going to remove the "hold" on recommending 8 Toyota models covered by the sticky pedal recall.
Comments
Do you have a link for that? Otherwise, it's not rational. And since it's off the topic of Toyota's problems, I won't respond further.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I can at least back up the fact that I've owned many GM cars:
1968 Buick Special Deluxe
1975 Cadillac Sedan DeVille
1979 Buick Park Avenue
1979 Oldsmobile Ninety-Eight Regency
1987 Chevrolet Caprice Classic
1988 Buick Park Avenue
1989 Cadillac Brougham
1994 Cadillac DeVille
2002 Cadillac Seville STS
2007 Cadillac DTS Performance
All have been super-reliable! :shades:
Government Motors does not pertain to the discussionEdit: not directly anyways, but in the interest of improving GM by scarring Toyota it does for some people.
I live in an 11-unit building (townhome/condo like) and in the parking lot I'd say there's about 66% Toyotas (including a Scion, and most units have 2 parking spaces and cars). I asked my neighbors if they've had any funny UA issues and none of them have had any.
My parents own a Lexus and a Toyota, my brother a Toyota (serveral times in a row), and none of them have reported any issues.
Where are the lemons?
Your right, but when someone makes a statement like I and my family have owned GM vehicles in the past, and they were terrible cars in terms of reliability, it requires some explanation due to being just a vague opinionated statement.
The fact here is Toyota has continued to cover up a safety defect on millions of its cars and trucks on the road today. They tried to blame the owner (now that is really pathetic), then the supplier, then the floor mats, then the pedals, and now owners are STILL reporting the problem after Toyota tried to spin their so called pedal fix.
Get these lemons off the road! :lemon:
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - U.S. regulators on Wednesday reviewed 10 complaints that fixes made to recalled Toyota Motor Corp vehicles did not resolve unintended acceleration.
Oh Geez! What a surprise!
The sad thing is people thing Toyota can or should only be trusted at this point given their record? They have lied, lied, and lied about this entire situation; trying to blame everyone else besides Toyota. So now they say they had a fix which is now proving to be yet another lie. :lemon:
Toyota Recall Fix Not Working, Drivers Tell Federal Safety Agency
Despite assurances by Toyota executives that safety recalls are solving its potentially fatal car problems, 10 new complaints submitted to the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration charge that the recall fix is not working and that problems with sudden acceleration have continued.
The new post-recall complaints were first noted in a report by Safety Research & Strategies (SRS), a private research firm based in Rehoboth, Mass. Among the complaints detailed by SRS was a driver who said that even though her 2009 Toyota Matrix had its brakes and pas pedal serviced Feb. 10, the car was still uncontrollable Feb. 26.
"I was driving about 5 MPH in a parking area with my son," the woman wrote to NHTSA. "I put my foot on the brake and I felt the car push forward& My son said "It's doing it again Mom!"
A 2008 Toyota Avalon owner said the car was backing out of a driveway a few days after being serviced "when it accelerated on its own and the car did about 3 loops around the garage area of the home causing damage to the car, benches, tree, bushes, lamp post, etc."
Another complaint says a 2010 Toyota Camry surged suddenly just five days after having its recall work done.
According to SRS, "Toyota executives are confident that their recalls will end the SUA complaints - they've said that into every microphone that's been put in front of them. Some consumers who have taken their recalled vehicles in for the fix have a different story."
In response to the new complaints, Toyota said it is "confident that Toyota vehicles are safe" and has "received the needed information to contact four of the concerned vehicle owners and are making preparations to quickly investigate their concerns."
Former ABC News producer Stewart Stogel said his 2009 Toyota Camry continues to surge, even though a Toyota dealer performed all the recall procedures.
The dealer's repair statement says that in addition to modifying the car's gas pedal, the computer in the vehicle was reprogrammed to install a brake over-ride that is supposed to kill the acceleration.
Still, "the car has lurched out of control on at least one occasion since the fix," Stogel said.
Nissan was good, but WAY below Honda and Toyota. The Europeans were well below the Japanese, and the AMerican companies where WAY WAY WAY below even that. If you have a chart, it would probably have to be ten feet high to demonstrate the differences in quality accurately. You'd have Honda and toyota at 10' high, The Europeans (before the Chrysler merger debacle) at about 5' high, Nissan at 7', and the Domestic 2 at 2 feet with Chrysler at 0.
Reputations come from people's own experiences, not from magazines. You have it backwards if you think Consumer Reports can be "lobbied." They just tell it how it is, and the consumers tell them how it was.
Didn't another poster here on Edmunds offer to buy your car? And you turned him down? :confuse:
I'm not going to accuse you of lying or distrust but you don't find it strange that every single post (and it's duplicates in numerous threads), whether it be some scathing anti-Toyota piece or dirt dug up from other newsreels on the other side of the Country (along with outrageous hysteria calls for people to actually be scared of Toyota vehicles), come off as well, over the top? I mean there is nothing you have posted that has incling of you being a "Car enthusiast" or even care to engage in the Automotive discussions outside of OMG, it's a Toyota, run for your lives!!!
Pardon me but I get the suspicions that there is propoganda at play here...
Even the most devoted Toyota naysayers (you know who you are
Thanks!!!
It's good to know some here are really paying attention and reading what is written.
Forums sometimes seem to get filled with people that are hysterical and irrational. I try to keep rational and factual. They say a picture is worth a 1,000 words. Well, I believe real life experience is worth a million words.
I agree it is unfortunate that the people experiencing SUA don't post here.
Ad from here on the page with the forum: the lady has owned the car 1 full month!!! Is she an expert?
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
That's because percentage-wise, their number is SO tiny.
I experienced SUA once in my 2004 Honda Civic Hybrid, but not in a dangerous manner. It was on a city street when I had just turned a corner and downshifted to speed up a little bit.
Just happened once, no big deal, and I virtually forgot about it until today.
It was a manual shift tranny, so when it happened I just put it into neutral and pumped the pedal once and the revving stopped. Not sure if it was a "physical" or "electronic" thing.
It was no big deal.
It happens to all sorts of makes, just there is more to gain from Toyota taking the fall for it
LOL.....shouldn't there be small print at the bottom saying "Results not typical, your experience may be different."
How about they check back with poor Iris after a couple thousand of miles and see if she feels the same; that is if her car doesn't suddenly accelerate out of control beforehand. :shades:
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
I was with GM for almost 30 years (1979-2005) and I had 8 different models with GM over those years
1979 Chevrolet Chevette :lemon:
1984 Oldsmobile Cutlass :lemon:
1990 Buick Skylark :lemon:
1992 Buick Century :lemon:
1994 Chevrolet Lumina :lemon:
1997 Pontiac Grand Am :lemon:
2001 Chevrolet Malibu :lemon:
2004 Chevrolet Malibu :lemon:
Just to give you one quick example of the hell I went through, I was on my fifth alternator and timing belt on my 1990 Skylark when I got rid of it at 10 yrs old :sick: Guy I sold it too works with me and kept it for another 3.5 years and he went through 2 more alternators before the car finally became scrap metal :sick:
Sorry to be bringing up GM in a Toyota forum but everyone else is so I guess its okay!
Why are they allowed to insult some of the members here? Is it good for Edmunds' business?
John
I can at least back up the fact that I've owned many GM cars:
1968 Buick Special Deluxe
1975 Cadillac Sedan DeVille
1979 Buick Park Avenue
1979 Oldsmobile Ninety-Eight Regency
1987 Chevrolet Caprice Classic
1988 Buick Park Avenue
1989 Cadillac Brougham
1994 Cadillac DeVille
2002 Cadillac Seville STS
2007 Cadillac DTS Performance
All have been super-reliable!
wow, consider yourself really lucky man, I had the complete opposite experience with poor quality and reliability with the 8 GM's I had over a 25yr period; the list is above in another post! I noticed though, you had much more higher end GM products compared to mine; I had mostly low to mid-level products; maybe GM spent more time making sure they put their more expensive vehicles together and said to hell with the lower cheaper end models :confuse:
You could push it into a lake and then write it off as a casualty loss... :shades:
that's just the y way it is.
what is your persistent badgering me about this? I don't get it? I'm sure if you go to any of the manufacturer's website YOURSELF, you might find a break down of fleet sales! those two articles I posted that gave those numbers said that those were the number given and reported to them BY THE MANUFACTURER'S!! why would each car manufacturer want to make up those numbers?
I guess you just can't accept the fact the numbers and facts don't support your weird 1/3rd claim?
if you think there is something wrong with the information why don't you go and speak to the people and companies providing the information?
some of them a quite excellent.
here is a story i have about dealing with one of them.
about 4 years ago, i bought a rear view mirror with a compass and temp display for my wife's escape. the same company supplies the same items for honda, toyota, etc...
i ordered it throught the dealer and asked before i ordered it, how much would the installation labor be? i was told an hour, so i followed through with the purchase.
when the mirror arrived, i scheduled an appointment with the service department and brought the vehicle in as scheduled.
later that day, they call me and say they can't install the mirror because they don't know how!
i take the car back and go to another dealer, show them the mirror and ask how much to install? they say we don't know how to do it, we don't have exact directions, so 3 hours.
i go back to dealer #1 and they say as soon as they can figure it out by getting installation instructions, they will install it, but give me a loaner in the mean time. ok, i'll go with that.
just for laughs, i call the vendor, talk to the receptionist and explain my issue.
she says i will connect you with someone who can help you.
i tell this guy my issue, he says i and looking at the exact instructions for your vehicle on my computer, so i will print them and mail them to you.
i say, if you see them on your computer, can you email them to me?
he says are you ok with .PDF's?
are you kidding? send em!
i was back at the dealer in less than an hour with the directions, you should have seen their faces!
after 4 days, me driving the free loaner the whole time, the dealer asked me if it would be ok if they charged me 2 hours labor? i said it was fair.
the mirror itself is much better than the oem, and still works perfectly.
There! My immediate family own 4 Nissans (1983, 1997, 2007, 2009 ). All great vehicles.
SOUTHLAKE, Texas – Toyota has for years blocked access to data stored in devices similar to airline "black boxes" that could explain crashes blamed on sudden unintended acceleration, according to an Associated Press review of lawsuits nationwide and interviews with auto crash experts.
The AP investigation found that Toyota has been inconsistent — and sometimes even contradictory — in revealing exactly what the devices record and don't record, including critical data about whether the brake or accelerator pedals were depressed at the time of a crash.
By contrast, most other automakers routinely allow much more open access to information from their event data recorders, commonly known as EDRs.
AP also found that Toyota:
• Has frequently refused to provide key information sought by crash victims and survivors.
• Uses proprietary software in its EDRs. Until this week, there was only a single laptop in the U.S. containing the software needed to read the data following a crash.
• In some lawsuits, when pressed to provide recorder information Toyota either settled or provided printouts with the key columns blank.
Toyota's "black box" information is emerging as a critical legal issue amid the recall of 8 million vehicles by the world's largest automaker. The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration said this week that 52 people have died in crashes linked to accelerator problems, triggering an avalanche of lawsuits.
When Toyota was asked by the AP to explain what exactly its recorders do collect, a company statement said Thursday that the devices record data from five seconds before until two seconds after an air bag is deployed in a crash.
The statement said information is captured about vehicle speed, the accelerator's angle, gear shift position, whether the seat belt was used and the angle of the driver's seat.
There was no initial mention of brakes — a key point in the sudden acceleration problem. When AP went back to Toyota to ask specifically about brake information, Toyota responded that its EDRs do, in fact, record "data on the brake's position and the antilock brake system."
But that does not square with information obtained by attorneys in a deadly crash last year in Southlake, Texas, and in a 2004 accident in Indiana that killed an elderly woman.
In the Texas crash, where four people died when their 2008 Avalon ripped through a fence, hit a tree and flipped into an icy pond, an EDR readout obtained by police listed as "off" any information on acceleration or braking.
In the 2004 crash in Evansville, Ind., that killed 77-year-old Juanita Grossman, attorneys for her family say a Toyota technician traveled from the company's U.S. headquarters in Torrance, Calif., to examine her 2003 Camry.
Before she died, the 5-foot-2, 125-pound woman told relatives she was practically standing with both feet on the brake pedal but could not stop the car from slamming into a building. Records confirm that emergency personnel found Grossman with both feet on the brake pedal.
A Toyota representative told the family's attorneys there was "no sensor that would have preserved information regarding the accelerator and brake positions at the time of impact," according to a summary of the case provided by Safety Research & Strategies Inc., a Rehoboth, Mass.-based company that does vehicle safety research for attorneys, engineers, government and others.
One attorney in the Texas case contends in court documents that Toyota may have deliberately stopped allowing its EDRs to collect critical information so the Japanese automaker would not be forced to reveal it in court cases.
The last slide titled Toyota Wins, under Defects says "negotiated...no defect found" for Sudden Acceleration saving $100 million. During the hearing, Inaba testified that he was not aware of any claimed savings of $100 million for negotiating a deal with NHTSA.
Internal Toyota Documents Related To Recall
But you don't get info showing honda and nissan covering things up, not being open during investigations etc. If the government really wants to help GM, they will also have " gone after " nissan and honda, also hyundai, these 3 also have big sales in the US right ? Then why only toyota executives are " grilled " ? Because they deserve to be grilled.
I think congress is too kind to them. They did not even question them abt the other points in their secret document. Only the 100 million camry savings issue is raised. Yet people say congress should have done something more useful. I beg to disagree. Congress is way too lame on toyota. Maybe many of them own toyotas ?
I don't mind working with a guy with average intelligence so long as he is open and honest. But working with a smart guy who later turned out to be sneaky and cunning, now thats scary, because when things go wrong, he just won't tell you the full inside story.
For those that look for a quick excuse when they crash their Toyota, they can always blame it on SUA. As for myself, I am not going to speculate and blame a company that builds reliable cars that I am happy with owning :shades: . Human errors are usually the cause of most car accidents.
That would be the Toyota worshippers that believe any problem with a Toyota is caused by a stupid, ignorant, malcontent, incompetent boob of a driver. It cannot be an electronic or other failure with their beloved Toyotas. Of course most of those types drive Toyotas because Toyota has more UA complaints than ALL OTHER MAKES COMBINED.
Oh and Toyota and their dealers feel the same way about people that buy their cars. If you complain your told that it isn't the car. Its a Toyota and Toyotas are perfect.
By Stuart Pfeifer, Carol J. Williams and Robert Faturechi
February 28, 2010
[u][b]Crash reports tell of horror
Sudden and unexpected speed is a common thread in accounts of fatal wrecks involving Toyota vehicles, some of which haven't been recalled[/b][/u]
[b]One car barreled through a stop sign, struck a tree and landed upside down in a Texas lake, drowning four people. Another tore across an Indiana street and crashed into a jewelry store. A third raced at an estimated 100 mph on a San Bernardino County street before striking a telephone pole, killing a restaurant owner.[/b]
At least 56 people have died in U.S. traffic accidents in which sudden unintended acceleration of Toyota Motor Corp. vehicles has been alleged, according to a Times review of public records and interviews with authorities.
[b]Most died while doing the mundane: returning to work after lunch, shopping, driving to the bank to make a deposit. The deaths occurred in big cities and small towns throughout the U.S.: Los Angeles; Tucson; Auburn, N.Y.; Marietta, Ga. The stories are told in court filings, federal accident complaints and police reports.[/b]
In the last decade, the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration has received complaints of 34 fatalities related to sudden acceleration of Toyota vehicles, far more than for any other automaker. At least 22 additional deaths related to Toyota acceleration problems have been alleged in lawsuits and police reports.
The NHTSA database does not determine whether the complaints are valid, and none of the allegations have been proved in court. Still, the increase in the number of people who publicly blame Toyota vehicles for deaths and injuries comes at a difficult time for the world's largest automaker, which in recent months has issued nearly 10 million safety recall notices on vehicles worldwide.
Toyota spokesman Brian Lyons declined to comment for this report, saying the company does not discuss cases in which litigation has been, or may be, filed. The company has said it is confident that all models with potentially sticking pedals have been identified and that the recalls will address all problems.
In the last week, Toyota has become the focus of a U.S. criminal investigation related to its handling of safety issues; its president apologized before a congressional committee; [b]and an internal memo was released in which Toyota executives boasted about saving money by averting recalls.[/b]
'Look of terror'
[b]Umni Suk Chung screamed, "No brakes! No brakes! No brakes!" as her Lexus RX330 sped along the shoulder of the 10 Freeway in West Los Angeles on a deadly collision course.[/b]
[b]Chung's luxury SUV was going nearly 80 mph when it smashed into a Mercedes sedan on the Overland Avenue exit ramp. The Lexus overturned, killing Chung's sister-in-law, Esook Synn, who was seated in the back seat. Chung and another passenger were badly injured.[/b]
A woman who said she witnessed the accident said that she could see a "look of terror" in Chung's face just moments before the Dec. 15, 2008, crash.
"They looked like they lost control of the car. The car did not look like it was decelerating at all, as if the accelerator was stuck or something," the woman wrote on the Los Angeles Fire Department website.
Chung and Synn, both Torrance residents, had been returning to work at a real estate office after having lunch at a Korean restaurant.
Synn, 69, was survived by her husband, Kyung; a son, Gordon; and a daughter, Aimee.
"It's heartbreaking for us to know how scared or terrified she must have been because of the way the accident happened. It breaks our heart," Gordon Synn said.
Synn's relatives have retained an attorney, Larry Grassini, who said he believes an electronic system malfunction caused the vehicle to accelerate while rendering the brakes useless. [b]The Lexus RX330 is not among the models recently recalled by Toyota for problems linked to unintended acceleration.[/b]
Toyota officials analyzed data from the Lexus' "black box" and determined it was traveling 78 mph at the time of the crash, according to a report by the California Highway Patrol.
Eleven months after the crash, the Los Angeles County district attorney's office [b]charged Chung with gross vehicular manslaughter without alcohol impairment as well as reckless driving causing injury, both felonies. Now 62, Chung faces up to six years in prison if convicted. Before the accident, she had a clean driving record, according to the CHP report.[/b]
[b]"This case got filed and investigated before anybody knew about the problems with these Toyotas," said Richard Hutton, Chung's attorney.[/b]
"It's been hell for her," he said. "She feels bad enough that people were hurt and a relative was killed. Hopefully this case will get thrown out."
'My accelerator stuck'
Paramedics found Juanita Grossman with both feet still pressing the brake pedal.
[b]Alert but critically injured, she said her 2003 Toyota Camry had inexplicably accelerated March 16, 2004, as she left a drive-through pharmacy, racing across a busy street and slamming into a jewelry store in Evansville, Ind.[/b]
[b]"It was like a car on a slingshot. She was slung across the street into that building," said her son, Bill.[/b]
[b]Grossman, 77, died six days after the accident at a local hospital. In the days before her death, she described a car with a mind of its own, racing forward as she sat helpless behind the wheel, her feet jamming the brakes without effect, her son said.[/b]
"First thing she said was, 'My accelerator stuck,' " recalled her son. "She kept emphatically saying that the accelerator stuck on her."
Grossman is survived by two children, four grandchildren and two great-grandchildren. The Indiana woman worked for an accounting company and was active in her church. Her son remembered her as principled and thorough, making to-do lists and never forgetting a birthday or anniversary.
[b]The 2003 Toyota Camry is not among the models recently recalled by Toyota.[/b] After the accident, the family considered taking legal action against the company. They decided against it, worried that the legal costs would overwhelm them.
"It would've been the giant versus the little guy," Bill Grossman said.
Holiday horror
On the day after Christmas 2009, Monty Hardy and three members of his church were proselytizing in a Dallas suburb, spreading their faith door to door. [b]The four Jehovah's Witnesses were traveling in Hardy's 2008 Toyota Avalon about 30 mph on a residential street when the car suddenly accelerated, raced through a stop sign and left the road, crashing into a fence and tree and landing upside down in a small lake, according to a police report.
All four drowned.[/b]
Hardy, 56, and his wif
I have already declined the floormat recall. Before selling, I'll get the brake override done (yes I have my recall letter .... ...... and the VVT-i oil line recalll ... but the dealer is "too busy" to take before 3-15-10. For the sake of the next owner, I'll change the oil with Castrol Edge 5W30 so he or she won't have to deal with the dealership for a full year. (wait ....... that assumes anyone would buy the potential deathtrap)
Toyota can't even get the oil cap correct. It says use SL oil ....... no such thing. The API went to SM in 2004. And the owner's manual says 6.4 quarts which puts the dipsstick way over the full marker. Actual cranckase capactiy is 6.0 quarts. Toyota can't even get the dipstick right ...... virtually iimpossible to read with a hot engine and can only be read after an overnight shutdown.
Your link and quotes make me feel confident that the gas pedal shaving and shim is pure BS so will decline that as well. Floormats are secured by a hook and are 5 inches from accelerator pedal. I feel lucky to be alive. Got rear ended by a Dodge Minivan a month ago in an ice storm ........ my car: minor damage, her car:: totalled. Her ins paid for my truck rental ........ too bad I fell in love with it!!!!!!!!
Thanks Enterprise rental for being out of cars and only having 4WD trucks available!! Great excuse for getting out of the Toyota mode.
Thanks goodness wife's 02 ES has a key to turn off engine in event of SUA! 70K miles with no warranty claimes, no repairs, and her first brake job not due according to dealer until 75K. .... we planned to buy a 2012 next gen Lexus ES ....... looks like she might be getting a Fusion instead.
Sorry for the rant......... just thought the nighmare automobile horror stories were over after switching to Toyota/Lexus . WRONG. Gimme a "made in Mexico" Ford anyday.
Smart move, bro, who knows what else Toyota hides from the owners. I changed my Lexus IS350 to Subary 3.6R.
Can't see why you went through so many alternators. I did finally have to replace the alternator on my 1989 Cadillac Brougham last June after 20+ years and close to 158K miles!
Not so fast. When you dig deeper into the NHTSA complaints database and compare complaints by model vs. sales, you get some very interesting results, courtesy of Edmunds and The Truth About Cars.
For one, the Camry has far fewer complaints per units sold than the identical-under-the-skin Lexus ES. For another, maybe Lincoln Town Car owners should be worried.
TTAC commends Edmunds: A big hat tip to Edmunds, who has taken a lead in the quest to make sense of the data as well as the whole UA fiasco.
Yeah, analysis instead of hysterics! What a concept!