Like you wrote, CR was "intended" to be neutral. Go to CR parking lot and you will see what kind of age and gender of their editors. I can not say if they are paid by manufacturers but I can say that they know very little about cars.
JD Power is well respected by the manufacturers because their data mean something for the car makers. Their original dependability studies were conducted to the 5 year old cars. The car makers told them that the changes they would incorporate from JD Power's findings to their new car designs have to be the next next generation (5 years); they asked to shorten the period so they can incorporate the changes to the current new car design cycle. JD Power changed the studies now to the 3-year old cars. You can see how tight the relationship they have with automakers; not bought by, but valued by the automakers.
Even Lexus is not No. 1 anymore on the JD Power list, knocked down by Buick.
Of course, for each negative review about Toyota, you can find 1000 good ones SOME WHERE ELSE. That does not mean a thing. Have you paid attention to the good-bad ratio at Yahoo Auto or at any other forums?
According to your own data, GM had a head start of nearly 30 years over Toyota in the game. That's a lifetime.
If a company as perfect as you claimed, they do not need a long time at all to go to the top. How long does it take Google, Yahoo, Microsoft, Facebook to rise? China's BYD is only 3 years old and now they are No. 6 automaker in China, the world's largest auto market.
73 years is a loooong time for a good company NOT able to rise to the top.
Why is someone that claims to like speed and handling defending Toyota? They have nothing of any value for your driving desires. Go German, the Japanese are not into fine handling cars. They sell cars to geeks and old dudes
apparently you've never driven a Infiniti G Sedan and Coupe; if you had, you wouldn't have made that statement! they can hold their own against BMW!! :shades:
"I read someone else had the bright idea of shifting into 1 or 2 low gears so that you can't go into lethal speed territory. Now that's thinking!"
I am not sure that you can force any auto transmission (that is electronically controlled) into lower gear if it overrevs the engine. So when you drive on highway 70 MPH and UA happens, before you notice it you are probably going 80, 85 when you see that brakes do not work and 90 when you try to down shift. I think 4th (in 6 speed) and 3rd (in 5 speed) would be the lowest allowed by computer.
Try it with your car and tell us something that you know and tried by yourself.
You are probably right that once you are going too fast, it won't let you shift down into too low of a gear, which is why it's very important to make gear selections AS SOON AS UA happens/starts. I'd choose neutral and live on without further incident.
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
Was staying silent but couldn't due to comments such as "JD Power is more neutral" and "CR is [non-permissible content removed] bias" .
Any companies can hire JD Power to do a survey, and JD Power would word the survey any way the paying customer(s) want. This is like credit agencies ranking their paying clients AAA (what got our nation into this debt and mortgage crisis).
Remember, JD Power is a for-profit market research firm working for anyone who will pay them. And you think they are neutral?
CR is a not-for-profit organization paid only by subscribers. And they have a pretty strict policy of buying every test cars (or appliances, or whatever) anonymously, then test cars/appliances against each other. For used car data they comb through subscribers inputs, as well as going out and conduct surveys, again anonymously, to avoid what you call bias.
So before you start quoting JD Power this and that, find out who paid for the survey and all the factors considered.
What is in the CR employee parking lot? Does that matter? I'd expect to see a lot of the cars they rate highly, as it makes sense they'd listen to their own data. Are you suggesting they get free cars for the one's they rate highly?
3 years isn't long enough to judge dependability. Heck, you are still within the warranty period for even the worst shortest warranty car makers like Chrysler! JD Powers sold out to the Big 3 because their cars don't last more then 3 years. They performed poorly at 5 years. It was a stupid decision for JD Power's to consider 3 years a "durability test." I'd of argued they should have gone to 7 years! Why can't they do a 3, 5, and 7 or 8 year test? It's fishy, very fishy.
So now Lexus is #2? Is that so bad?
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
73 years is a loooong time for a good company NOT able to rise to the top.
I know nothing of Toyota prior to the 80's. I only know they made incredible cars for the 1980's on. So for all I know they were a terrible company for 40+ years and then got "perfect" in the 80's.
Also, you are comparing the good ol' days to current modern times. No doubt in this era of the computer age companies can grow to be world leaders in just a few years time. However, in the 1930's prior to computers and the internet, you couldn't just start a company and expect to be #1 in the world overnight.
Especially a car company. Not just Toyota, but NO ONE competed with GM for a long, LONG time. It took the modern era to do that. Word of mouth of the poor quality got spread faster and took GM down.
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
CR is a not-for-profit organization paid only by subscribers. And they have a pretty strict policy of buying every test cars (or appliances, or whatever) anonymously, then test cars/appliances against each other. For used car data they comb through subscribers inputs, as well as going out and conduct surveys, again anonymously, to avoid what you call bias.
I believe the single most important thing CR does that others don't is that they buy their cars randomly and anonymously from the manufacturer's dealers. They do not accept (the one and only quality checked and controlled vehicle from so and so) as their test model. They go out and get one just like everyone else does. This gives a much truer reading. I am sure the Big 3 are guilty of trying to put their "best foot forward" with other sources of quality reviews other than CR.
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
but NO ONE competed with GM for a long, LONG time. It took the modern era to do that.
In the 100 years history of auto industry, there have been fierce competition every single year. There were way more automakers in the world in the early stage; now just a handful. I don't know where you got the idea that GM had no competition for a long long time. Maybe you meant that they were that good so that they crushed all the competitions?
Since JD Powers is worthless to most objective eyes, I don't care what ranking they are. As long as they get red circles from CR I'm happy with Toyota.
However, if we are going to look at the meaning of untouchable, it can't be their ranking at one moment in time, as scores can change and shift in the short term. The key to judge a manufacturer is their long term performance, year after year. Lets look at Toyota's average ranking over the course of say, the last 20 years? That's the only way you can get JD Powers to be anything "long term" since they do not look at anything past when it's practically brand new.
I believe looking at the past 20 years, only HOnda and toyota stand at the top consistently.
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
GM had no competition for a long long time. Maybe you meant that they were that good so that they crushed all the competitions?
What was GM's market share in the 50's and 60's? I believe that'll rest my case as to little to NO competition.
Was GM THAT good that the crushed the competition, maybe? Or maybe it was that the competition was THAT bad to non-existent. The numbers speak the truth, the market share of the Big 3 was overwhelming. there was no real competition.
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
What is in the CR employee parking lot? Does that matter? I'd expect to see a lot of the cars they rate highly, as it makes sense they'd listen to their own data. Are you suggesting they get free cars for the one's they rate highly?
I'm suggesting that elder house wives won't have the same criteria of judging a car than I do.
I'm suggesting that elder house wives won't have the same criteria of judging a car than I do.
That is something different. CR's reviews and ranking point system has a lot to do with ergonomics, fuel economy, and comfort, while the reliability ranking system is an entirely different animal.
The reliability records are based on nothing more than facts coming from real cars, in real world experiences, and real people.
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
find out who paid for the survey and all the factors considered.
JD Power conducts their study every year on all cars; all automakers pay JD Power to get their results after the study is done. If you consider this bias, something is wrong.
The reliability records are based on nothing more than facts coming from real cars, in real world experiences, and real people.
I hate to have to repeat what I wrote. If the group of readers whose Toyota gave them a lot of troubles but they saw all the red circles from the CR reports, they would stop paying for the subscription. Thus the poor data for Toyota won't show up in CR reliability survey.
I hate to have to repeat what I wrote. If the group of readers whose Toyota gave them a lot of troubles but they saw all the red circles from the CR reports, they would stop paying for the subscription. Thus the poor data for Toyota won't show up in CR reliability survey.
We'll just have to completely disagree here. I think the logical human reaction to having car problems is to report them to CR so that those red circles turn into blank white ones, or worse, black ones.
Case in point, look at the 2003 Accord transmission, it's not a red or half red circle, but pretty much every other category is.
That is why a lot of domestic vehicles have a lot of red the first 3 years, but then a ton of black as they get older. They just age 5 times faster.
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
That is why a lot of domestic vehicles have a lot of red the first 3 years, but then a ton of black as they get older. They just age 5 times faster.
Do you have reference for this claim? Go read the lasted Apr issue of your favorite CR magazine; there's a chart showing the problem rate of each automakers over time. Everyone is pretty much linear over time.
XLU, dude,, JD Power is the biggest joke out there..They have the same rating for brake dust and the engine !!Their CEO himself admitted to this in an interview with MSNBC. I had posted the link in the CR vs JD Power discussion. But I will post it again here. :sick: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32509285/ns/business-consumer_news/
JD Power is a paid for survey whereas CR is not.. Just read CR FAQ`s on car reliability and surveys for a better understanding... Everything is in detail over there.. Honda Odyssey and Accord transmissions had black dots from 99-03.. Nissans have rated poorly in CR with brake and engine and audio problems.. The new 07 Tundra just got average rating and Lexus GS AWD was below average... No bias here...Need to get the facts right !! :confuse:
Ford CEO had a meeting with CR and tried to figure out why it was rating poorly in reliablity.. This was by Alan Mullaly before Fusion was introduced.. He then discussed with his staff,redesigned the car,improved the quality and it indeed did show up in the CR ratings..But Ford still had poor reliability with Explorers,Expedition and F250,350 trucks along with poor marks for Lincoln Navigator... And folks here think CR has bias when the Ford CEO himself doesn`t think so..What a joke.. :sick:
Chevy has recommendations for the Malibu and Silverado ,not for Tahoe,Cobalt ... So there is no bias ... Easy to trash a finding when you dont agree with it inspite of evidence being available.. :confuse:
Also Toyota`s sales are pretty good..If Ford/GM were so confident,why did they match Toyota`s 05 financing.. Also Fusion has a 2k rebate now whereas the Malibu has 1k rebate inspite of increase in sales and drop in Toyota`s sales..40% of Fords were fleets sales,,30% GM were fleet sales.. Only 10% Toyota was fleet sales.. Honda has less than 5% fleet sales..
Toyota still makes one of the most dependable,reliable quality cars out there. Internet forum chats and hate do not translate into sales in real world.. Also sales numbers are meaningless unless they are profitable.. you can sell 5 million cars each with a loss of 5k.So what`s the point??
You call the JD the biggest joke, I can call the CR the same. That does not count.
As I wrote before, automakers pay JD for their study results after their annual study on everyone is done. I don't see anything wrong there.
Who's profitable? Last time I checked that Ford is in green while Toyota is in red.
Watch out for more incentives from Toyota this month. Also as I wrote before, the perception trails the reality by 5 to 10 years. Toyota was good in the 1980s and most of the 1990s; their fall is recent so you will see the decline more and more in the next a few years.
I cancelled my subscription to CR because I believe them to be biased toward Japanese brands and against domestics. I remember a few years ago reading the review for the Impala. They commented th at it had an "unimpressive" combined rating of 18 mpg. The Subaru Legacy of that year had the identical rating but not a word was mentioned about its "unimpressive" mileage.
My wife currently drives a 2008 Saturn Aura XR V-6 and it is and has been a stellar vehicle. It replaced an 8 year old Nissan Maxima. It is faster, gets better mileage on regular gas, is much quieter and has a smoother ride. It also has tons more features and was $3000 cheaper than the Maxima was 8 years ago. Yet this car was rated below a Hyundai Elantra in the CR ratings.
I looked at JD Power and Edmunds consumer ratings when choosing a new vehicle. Toyota and even Honda have much lower ratings with their owners than they have with CR. Yahoo Auto consumer ratings also bear this out.
Toyotas have been overated in my opinion. When I heard about the Toyota Tacoma and Tundra frame rust problems I knew they had major problems. My friend's daughter's 2001 Tacoma recently had its frame REPLACED at a cost of about $13,000. They were also buying back and scrapping older models due to this major rust problem. Now they have recalled later model Tundras for the same problem. Can they afford to buy back or replace frames on potentially millions of vehicles? If they can they must have been overcharging for their products for many years.
>They commented th at it had an "unimpressive" combined rating of 18 mpg. The Subaru Legacy of that year had the identical rating but not a word was mentioned about its "unimpressive" mileage
The same kind of double standard and use of adjectives to give or not give praise and criticism unevenly becme very apparent a few years back. REading some of the comparisons they do of similar models would show how they would not criticize certain brands that they liked while trying to pile on for the ones they disliked. I recall complaining about C panel size making it difficult to see; but they liked a Japanese model that had a similar if not larger C panel.
Feds probe Toyota Prius crash in NYC suburb Published: 3/10/10, 4:46 PM EDT By JIM FITZGERALD
HARRISON, N.Y. (AP) - The crash of a Toyota Prius in New York caught the attention of federal regulators Wednesday after the driver said it accelerated on its own, then lurched down a driveway, across a road and into a stone wall.
The crash heightens the attention surrounding unintended acceleration in Toyota vehicles and a recall involving more than 8 million vehicles to address gas pedals that can become sticky or trapped under floor mats.
The Department of Transportation is looking into the New York crash, spokeswoman Olivia Alair said Wednesday.
Capt. Anthony Marraccini of the police department in Harrison, north of New York City, said that a regional Toyota official asked to collect the Prius involved in the crash but that the police are "not prepared to release it just yet."
He said he wanted to see first if a federal agency wants to join or take over the investigation. "This involved potentially a great safety hazard and could be something of national interest," he said. Besides, he said, the damaged car belongs to the owner, not to Toyota.
When police release the Prius, Toyota will evaluate it to determine the cause of the accident, company spokesman Brian Lyons said.
The silver-gray 2005 Prius was taken to a police parking lot. Its front end was severely pushed in, the hood was buckled and the front bumper and one front headlight were broken.
Police believe the vehicle was on Toyota's recall list for the sticky accelerator problem, but they had no immediate proof that this one had the problem, Marraccini said. The vehicle had been serviced by Toyota for the floor mat problem, he said.
The driver, a 56-year-old housekeeper, was going forward in the car on Tuesday, down a curving driveway several hundred feet long with a putting green next to it, when the accident happened, Marraccini said.
"She said she doesn't know whether the accelerator stuck," Marraccini said. "She said she didn't depress it that much because she was just pulling out of the driveway."
He said she was lucky to escape serious injury because she could have driven into traffic and the impact with the wall "was pretty substantial." he said police did not yet know how fast the car was going.
The captain said police would consider the possibility that the driver, whose name was not made public, was at fault. But he added, "She appears to have all her faculties. She didn't appear to be disoriented in any way. There's nothing at this particular time that would indicate driver error."
He said she appeared to be properly licensed.
The air bags deployed when the car hit the stone wall of the estate across the street. On Wednesday, five boulders and smaller filler stones were strewn about, some of them 10 feet from the wall. Broken glass, plastic headlight pieces and metal that looked like part of a window frame were nearby.
Toyota is fighting fears that the crashes are caused by faulty electronics rather than by mechanical problems.
On Monday, California police stopped a runaway 2008 Prius going nearly 95 mph after the driver said the pedal jammed. Toyota and the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration are investigating.
All 2004-2009 Priuses are covered by a recall Toyota announced in October over floor-mat entrapment. Toyota has advised drivers of the Prius and other affected vehicles to take out any removable driver's floor mat until they are repaired.
Could the Toyota systems suffer from say telephone relay or electric tower leakage satellite pushing digital High Def programs.The shielding of components could allow computer readings as in GM onstar receivers. Then reboot to show no car internal problem?
I have in the past been able to get 250 of such survey reports and found that sons daughters and grand kids filled them out not in fact the owner. Then tell me this how do you make it the owners place to fill them out ?Then most have no idea what the answers are Bias no but contaminated to a point not trust worthy.
Subaru Legacy of that year had the identical rating but not a word was mentioned about its "unimpressive" mileage.
Perhaps because the Subaru had performance and power befitting of 18 MPG combined whereas the Impala did not?
Nothing wrong with a Hyundai Elantra, they are still in business while Saturn is not with the Aura and they went bankrupt accordingly.
You talk about overcharging, but when one looks at resale values it is not Toyota or Honda that has been overcharging, but it is the BIG 3. If the Big 3 had simply not been overcharging, or continue to overcharge for their junk, then the resale values would improve.
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
The silver-gray 2005 Prius was taken to a police parking lot. Its front end was severely pushed in, the hood was buckled and the front bumper and one front headlight were broken.
The car is.. 5 years old... :sick:.. WHAT happened today as opposed to the last four or five years of driving the vehicle to cause it??. :confuse:
I dont know if you hace access to CR but CR for the 05 Legacy criticixes it for its fuel economy..Here`s the quote for the 05 Legacy-""Redesigned for 2005, the Legacy GT combines a powerful turbocharged engine with sports-car-like agility and a comfortable ride. It’s the sportiest and most fun-to-drive car in this group. The interior is quiet and hospitable. Fuel economy, however, is a paltry 18 mpg, easily the lowest in this group. The Legacy also has a disconcerting tendency to slide its rear end if the driver goes too fast into a corner and suddenly lifts off the accelerator. Electronic stability control, unfortunately, is not available on this trim line. Reliability is likely to be average."" :confuse:
So where is the bias?? Need to get the facts right?? And the Impala is just a dated design!! :P
Just b`co s you say it doesnt count doesn`t mean anything.. Its like a guy who only has a Dodge dealer in his town saying Dodge is the best selling vehicle b`cos he sees only Dodges in his city.!! And even GM CEO said that their reliablity ratings in CR have to be improved..guess some folks know more about reliability than the car makers and their CEO`s!!
Ford still has a debt of 35 billion.Billion as in a "B"...When will it get out of that debt??? Say you sell a million cars each year.. And if you make a profit of 3k per car ,it`s still just 3 billion... So 35 billion is so far off.. And I doubt Ford is making 3k per vehicle...I dont know and I will have to check that but I can bet that it is not even close to 3k..Toyota still has posted a profit this quarter inspite of the negative press!! :shades:
Did you check CR or are you just assuming?? CR rated the Elantra higher than Aura in reliability..Infact the 08 Aura gets black dots for brakes and squeaks and rattles and audio.. Regarding the performance score --well ,CR rates the cars based on its category..So the Elantra had a score of 70 in the compact sedan category.Aura had a score of 65 in the midsize category... Two different categories buddy!! :P
Yup, it was Ford CEO at that time...So it was Bill Ford jr... I just cant recollect the entire details.. But I will post a link of that after searching for it !! :P
So here`s the link to Ford`s profitability per vehicle-- it is still losing $62 per car whereas Toyota a still made $967 per car inspite of all the recalls,lost sales and upto a 4 billion loss due to these recalls !! And it is from a Detroit newspaper !! So how soon will it pay off the 35 billion debt.. God knows !! :shades: http://www.detnews.com/article/20100224/AUTO01/2240430/1361/Recall-takes-financi- - al-toll-on-Toyota
that's because all us boomers are driving Mustang GT's :surprise: just wait, over the next year or two, ford will be introducing several models that will have big appeal to younger buyers. then we will see how the stats shake out.
2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
WHAT happened today as opposed to the last four or five years of driving the vehicle to cause it??.
keny....that's exactly what Congress, the NHTSA, the SEC, and who knows how many other agencies are trying to figure out. That's exactly what Toyota owners want to know, too.
So far, Toyota hasn't been very forthcoming, with gov't agencies, and their customers, however.
There's obviously a long running problem with Toyota and Lexus cars that Toyota dismissed and ignored. This isn't a recent phenomena.....just one that Toyota had to be forced to deal with recently, for the safety of the public.
Wont change much especially as the average hyundai buyer is 46 yrs old !! :shades: And all brands have new cars coming that appeal to the younger age group ! Younger buyers just dont have the money. Average buyer age groups for funky cars::
""According to an article in USA Today, boxy vehicles are appealing to older demographics.
Average age of a Kia Soul buyer? 50 Average age of a Nissan Cube buyer? 46 Average age of a Scion xB buyer? 42 Average age of a Honda Element buyer? 49 ""
Linear means if a car has 2 problems in the 1st year, and the problem counts increase by 1 each year, then the problem rate over time is linear. In a graph, it would show a straight line. Linear has nothing about the relationship between 2 cars or 2 brands.
You stated the the American cars' problem rate increase substantially after 3 or 5 years. That's called non-linear. Did you see that trend in the CR graph?
Comments
JD Power is well respected by the manufacturers because their data mean something for the car makers. Their original dependability studies were conducted to the 5 year old cars. The car makers told them that the changes they would incorporate from JD Power's findings to their new car designs have to be the next next generation (5 years); they asked to shorten the period so they can incorporate the changes to the current new car design cycle. JD Power changed the studies now to the 3-year old cars. You can see how tight the relationship they have with automakers; not bought by, but valued by the automakers.
Even Lexus is not No. 1 anymore on the JD Power list, knocked down by Buick.
Of course, for each negative review about Toyota, you can find 1000 good ones SOME WHERE ELSE. That does not mean a thing. Have you paid attention to the good-bad ratio at Yahoo Auto or at any other forums?
If a company as perfect as you claimed, they do not need a long time at all to go to the top. How long does it take Google, Yahoo, Microsoft, Facebook to rise? China's BYD is only 3 years old and now they are No. 6 automaker in China, the world's largest auto market.
73 years is a loooong time for a good company NOT able to rise to the top.
Why is someone that claims to like speed and handling defending Toyota? They have nothing of any value for your driving desires. Go German, the Japanese are not into fine handling cars. They sell cars to geeks and old dudes
apparently you've never driven a Infiniti G Sedan and Coupe; if you had, you wouldn't have made that statement! they can hold their own against BMW!! :shades:
I am not sure that you can force any auto transmission (that is electronically controlled) into lower gear if it overrevs the engine.
So when you drive on highway 70 MPH and UA happens, before you notice it you are probably going 80, 85 when you see that brakes do not work and 90 when you try to down shift. I think 4th (in 6 speed) and 3rd (in 5 speed) would be the lowest allowed by computer.
Try it with your car and tell us something that you know and tried by yourself.
Krzys
Subaru WRX STI?
Nissan GT-R?
Japanese companies do know how to build fine handling cars, if they want to.
Krzys
Any companies can hire JD Power to do a survey, and JD Power would word the survey any way the paying customer(s) want. This is like credit agencies ranking their paying clients AAA (what got our nation into this debt and mortgage crisis).
Remember, JD Power is a for-profit market research firm working for anyone who will pay them. And you think they are neutral?
CR is a not-for-profit organization paid only by subscribers. And they have a pretty strict policy of buying every test cars (or appliances, or whatever) anonymously, then test cars/appliances against each other. For used car data they comb through subscribers inputs, as well as going out and conduct surveys, again anonymously, to avoid what you call bias.
So before you start quoting JD Power this and that, find out who paid for the survey and all the factors considered.
3 years isn't long enough to judge dependability. Heck, you are still within the warranty period for even the worst shortest warranty car makers like Chrysler!
JD Powers sold out to the Big 3 because their cars don't last more then 3 years. They performed poorly at 5 years. It was a stupid decision for JD Power's to consider 3 years a "durability test." I'd of argued they should have gone to 7 years! Why can't they do a 3, 5, and 7 or 8 year test? It's fishy, very fishy.
So now Lexus is #2? Is that so bad?
I know nothing of Toyota prior to the 80's. I only know they made incredible cars for the 1980's on. So for all I know they were a terrible company for 40+ years and then got "perfect" in the 80's.
Also, you are comparing the good ol' days to current modern times. No doubt in this era of the computer age companies can grow to be world leaders in just a few years time. However, in the 1930's prior to computers and the internet, you couldn't just start a company and expect to be #1 in the world overnight.
Especially a car company. Not just Toyota, but NO ONE competed with GM for a long, LONG time. It took the modern era to do that. Word of mouth of the poor quality got spread faster and took GM down.
The debate was whether Toyota is UNTOUCHABLE as you wrote. If now you are satisfied of it being No. 8, I rest my case.
I believe the single most important thing CR does that others don't is that they buy their cars randomly and anonymously from the manufacturer's dealers. They do not accept (the one and only quality checked and controlled vehicle from so and so) as their test model. They go out and get one just like everyone else does. This gives a much truer reading. I am sure the Big 3 are guilty of trying to put their "best foot forward" with other sources of quality reviews other than CR.
In the 100 years history of auto industry, there have been fierce competition every single year. There were way more automakers in the world in the early stage; now just a handful. I don't know where you got the idea that GM had no competition for a long long time. Maybe you meant that they were that good so that they crushed all the competitions?
However, if we are going to look at the meaning of untouchable, it can't be their ranking at one moment in time, as scores can change and shift in the short term. The key to judge a manufacturer is their long term performance, year after year. Lets look at Toyota's average ranking over the course of say, the last 20 years? That's the only way you can get JD Powers to be anything "long term" since they do not look at anything past when it's practically brand new.
I believe looking at the past 20 years, only HOnda and toyota stand at the top consistently.
What was GM's market share in the 50's and 60's? I believe that'll rest my case as to little to NO competition.
Was GM THAT good that the crushed the competition, maybe? Or maybe it was that the competition was THAT bad to non-existent. The numbers speak the truth, the market share of the Big 3 was overwhelming. there was no real competition.
I'm suggesting that elder house wives won't have the same criteria of judging a car than I do.
So now Lexus is #2? Is that so bad?
It's No. 3 now.
That is something different. CR's reviews and ranking point system has a lot to do with ergonomics, fuel economy, and comfort, while the reliability ranking system is an entirely different animal.
The reliability records are based on nothing more than facts coming from real cars, in real world experiences, and real people.
JD Power conducts their study every year on all cars; all automakers pay JD Power to get their results after the study is done. If you consider this bias, something is wrong.
I hate to have to repeat what I wrote. If the group of readers whose Toyota gave them a lot of troubles but they saw all the red circles from the CR reports, they would stop paying for the subscription. Thus the poor data for Toyota won't show up in CR reliability survey.
It's No. 3 now.
Oh the horror, being ranked #3 by JD Powers is a death sentence!!!
Guess Toyota will have to up that "fee" paid to JD Powers every year in order to be ranked higher again.
We'll just have to completely disagree here. I think the logical human reaction to having car problems is to report them to CR so that those red circles turn into blank white ones, or worse, black ones.
Case in point, look at the 2003 Accord transmission, it's not a red or half red circle, but pretty much every other category is.
That is why a lot of domestic vehicles have a lot of red the first 3 years, but then a ton of black as they get older. They just age 5 times faster.
I knew someone would mention the only thing the Japanese offer for the sport sedan driver.
Do you have reference for this claim? Go read the lasted Apr issue of your favorite CR magazine; there's a chart showing the problem rate of each automakers over time. Everyone is pretty much linear over time.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32509285/ns/business-consumer_news/
JD Power is a paid for survey whereas CR is not.. Just read CR FAQ`s on car reliability and surveys for a better understanding... Everything is in detail over there.. Honda Odyssey and Accord transmissions had black dots from 99-03.. Nissans have rated poorly in CR with brake and engine and audio problems.. The new 07 Tundra just got average rating and Lexus GS AWD was below average... No bias here...Need to get the facts right !! :confuse:
Ford CEO had a meeting with CR and tried to figure out why it was rating poorly in reliablity.. This was by Alan Mullaly before Fusion was introduced.. He then discussed with his staff,redesigned the car,improved the quality and it indeed did show up in the CR ratings..But Ford still had poor reliability with Explorers,Expedition and F250,350 trucks along with poor marks for Lincoln Navigator... And folks here think CR has bias when the Ford CEO himself doesn`t think so..What a joke.. :sick:
Chevy has recommendations for the Malibu and Silverado ,not for Tahoe,Cobalt ... So there is no bias ... Easy to trash a finding when you dont agree with it inspite of evidence being available.. :confuse:
Also Toyota`s sales are pretty good..If Ford/GM were so confident,why did they match Toyota`s 05 financing.. Also Fusion has a 2k rebate now whereas the Malibu has 1k rebate inspite of increase in sales and drop in Toyota`s sales..40% of Fords were fleets sales,,30% GM were fleet sales.. Only 10% Toyota was fleet sales.. Honda has less than 5% fleet sales..
Toyota still makes one of the most dependable,reliable quality cars out there. Internet forum chats and hate do not translate into sales in real world.. Also sales numbers are meaningless unless they are profitable.. you can sell 5 million cars each with a loss of 5k.So what`s the point??
As I wrote before, automakers pay JD for their study results after their annual study on everyone is done. I don't see anything wrong there.
Who's profitable? Last time I checked that Ford is in green while Toyota is in red.
Watch out for more incentives from Toyota this month. Also as I wrote before, the perception trails the reality by 5 to 10 years. Toyota was good in the 1980s and most of the 1990s; their fall is recent so you will see the decline more and more in the next a few years.
the review for the Impala. They commented th at it had an "unimpressive" combined rating of 18 mpg. The Subaru Legacy of that year had the identical
rating but not a word was mentioned about its "unimpressive" mileage.
My wife currently drives a 2008 Saturn Aura XR V-6 and it is and has been a
stellar vehicle. It replaced an 8 year old Nissan Maxima. It is faster, gets better mileage on regular gas, is much quieter and has a smoother ride. It also has
tons more features and was $3000 cheaper than the Maxima was 8 years ago.
Yet this car was rated below a Hyundai Elantra in the CR ratings.
I looked at JD Power and Edmunds consumer ratings when choosing a new vehicle.
Toyota and even Honda have much lower ratings with their owners than they have with CR. Yahoo Auto consumer ratings also bear this out.
Toyotas have been overated in my opinion. When I heard about the Toyota Tacoma and Tundra frame rust problems I knew they had major problems. My friend's daughter's 2001 Tacoma recently had its frame REPLACED at a cost of about $13,000. They were also buying back and scrapping older models due to this
major rust problem. Now they have recalled later model Tundras for the same problem. Can they afford to buy back or replace frames on potentially millions
of vehicles? If they can they must have been overcharging for their products for many years.
rating but not a word was mentioned about its "unimpressive" mileage
The same kind of double standard and use of adjectives to give or not give praise and criticism unevenly becme very apparent a few years back. REading some of the comparisons they do of similar models would show how they would not criticize certain brands that they liked while trying to pile on for the ones they disliked. I recall complaining about C panel size making it difficult to see; but they liked a Japanese model that had a similar if not larger C panel.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Published: 3/10/10, 4:46 PM EDT
By JIM FITZGERALD
HARRISON, N.Y. (AP) - The crash of a Toyota Prius in New York caught the attention of federal regulators Wednesday after the driver said it accelerated on its own, then lurched down a driveway, across a road and into a stone wall.
The crash heightens the attention surrounding unintended acceleration in Toyota vehicles and a recall involving more than 8 million vehicles to address gas pedals that can become sticky or trapped under floor mats.
The Department of Transportation is looking into the New York crash, spokeswoman Olivia Alair said Wednesday.
Capt. Anthony Marraccini of the police department in Harrison, north of New York City, said that a regional Toyota official asked to collect the Prius involved in the crash but that the police are "not prepared to release it just yet."
He said he wanted to see first if a federal agency wants to join or take over the investigation. "This involved potentially a great safety hazard and could be something of national interest," he said. Besides, he said, the damaged car belongs to the owner, not to Toyota.
When police release the Prius, Toyota will evaluate it to determine the cause of the accident, company spokesman Brian Lyons said.
The silver-gray 2005 Prius was taken to a police parking lot. Its front end was severely pushed in, the hood was buckled and the front bumper and one front headlight were broken.
Police believe the vehicle was on Toyota's recall list for the sticky accelerator problem, but they had no immediate proof that this one had the problem, Marraccini said. The vehicle had been serviced by Toyota for the floor mat problem, he said.
The driver, a 56-year-old housekeeper, was going forward in the car on Tuesday, down a curving driveway several hundred feet long with a putting green next to it, when the accident happened, Marraccini said.
"She said she doesn't know whether the accelerator stuck," Marraccini said. "She said she didn't depress it that much because she was just pulling out of the driveway."
He said she was lucky to escape serious injury because she could have driven into traffic and the impact with the wall "was pretty substantial." he said police did not yet know how fast the car was going.
The captain said police would consider the possibility that the driver, whose name was not made public, was at fault. But he added, "She appears to have all her faculties. She didn't appear to be disoriented in any way. There's nothing at this particular time that would indicate driver error."
He said she appeared to be properly licensed.
The air bags deployed when the car hit the stone wall of the estate across the street. On Wednesday, five boulders and smaller filler stones were strewn about, some of them 10 feet from the wall. Broken glass, plastic headlight pieces and metal that looked like part of a window frame were nearby.
Toyota is fighting fears that the crashes are caused by faulty electronics rather than by mechanical problems.
On Monday, California police stopped a runaway 2008 Prius going nearly 95 mph after the driver said the pedal jammed. Toyota and the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration are investigating.
All 2004-2009 Priuses are covered by a recall Toyota announced in October over floor-mat entrapment. Toyota has advised drivers of the Prius and other affected vehicles to take out any removable driver's floor mat until they are repaired.
Mulally was named the President and CEO of Ford Motor Company on September 5, 2006.
rating but not a word was mentioned about its "unimpressive" mileage.
Perhaps because the Subaru had performance and power befitting of 18 MPG combined whereas the Impala did not?
Nothing wrong with a Hyundai Elantra, they are still in business while Saturn is not with the Aura and they went bankrupt accordingly.
You talk about overcharging, but when one looks at resale values it is not Toyota or Honda that has been overcharging, but it is the BIG 3. If the Big 3 had simply not been overcharging, or continue to overcharge for their junk, then the resale values would improve.
CR's latest graphs show that a 3 year old domestic vehicle has as many problems as a 7 year old Japanese vehicle.
Where are you getting your linearity? If you mean that are constantly worse than the Japanese, then you are correct.
The car is.. 5 years old... :sick:.. WHAT happened today as opposed to the last four or five years of driving the vehicle to cause it??. :confuse:
So where is the bias?? Need to get the facts right?? And the Impala is just a dated design!! :P
Ford still has a debt of 35 billion.Billion as in a "B"...When will it get out of that debt??? Say you sell a million cars each year.. And if you make a profit of 3k per car ,it`s still just 3 billion... So 35 billion is so far off.. And I doubt Ford is making 3k per vehicle...I dont know and I will have to check that but I can bet that it is not even close to 3k..Toyota still has posted a profit this quarter inspite of the negative press!! :shades:
Regarding the performance score --well ,CR rates the cars based on its category..So the Elantra had a score of 70 in the compact sedan category.Aura had a score of 65 in the midsize category... Two different categories buddy!! :P
http://www.detnews.com/article/20100224/AUTO01/2240430/1361/Recall-takes-financi- - al-toll-on-Toyota
we all misremember things.
toyota makes a lot of sales to boomers, but i'm not so sure about the younger generation.
only one benefit...dont have to listen to anymore of his lame apologies :sick:
Average ages::Ford-54,GM-48,Honda-51,Toyota-46,Chrysler-44,Buick-55,MB-63.
here`s the link :
http://blogs.cars.com/kickingtires/2008/01/down-economy-mo.html
just wait, over the next year or two, ford will be introducing several models that will have big appeal to younger buyers. then we will see how the stats shake out.
keny....that's exactly what Congress, the NHTSA, the SEC, and who knows how many other agencies are trying to figure out. That's exactly what Toyota owners want to know, too.
So far, Toyota hasn't been very forthcoming, with gov't agencies, and their customers, however.
There's obviously a long running problem with Toyota and Lexus cars that Toyota dismissed and ignored. This isn't a recent phenomena.....just one that Toyota had to be forced to deal with recently, for the safety of the public.
And all brands have new cars coming that appeal to the younger age group ! Younger buyers just dont have the money. Average buyer age groups for funky cars::
""According to an article in USA Today, boxy vehicles are appealing to older demographics.
Average age of a Kia Soul buyer? 50
Average age of a Nissan Cube buyer? 46
Average age of a Scion xB buyer? 42
Average age of a Honda Element buyer? 49 ""
http://www.subcompactculture.com/2009/09/usa-today-boxy-cars-sell-to-older-folks- .html
Back to basic math...
Linear means if a car has 2 problems in the 1st year, and the problem counts increase by 1 each year, then the problem rate over time is linear. In a graph, it would show a straight line. Linear has nothing about the relationship between 2 cars or 2 brands.
You stated the the American cars' problem rate increase substantially after 3 or 5 years. That's called non-linear. Did you see that trend in the CR graph?