...excluding 4WD vehicles which require a little more maintenance, this is the scheduled maintenance for every Toyota being sold now.
oil/filter 5000 mi/6 mo's ( required )...At several (many?) stores now these are free. rotate tires 5000 / 6 mo's ( suggested ) inspect brakes 5000 / 6 mo's ( required )
That's it.................................it's all in the book
At your own descretion you can do.. ..an annual engine flush or coolant replacement. ..spark plugs - 100,000 mi plus ..all new engines have timing chains - no replacement ..the rest of the potential services are wear items
I can't imagine why you would continue to take your car to a dealer who clearly like to charge for unnecessary repairs.
That's a heck of a list.
On hoses and such I'd be ashamed if I were the dealer to say they were wearing out that quickly. My Accord at 128K still has the originals and they are in fine shape. My old Ody was at 117K and the original hoses when I traded it in on a newer one.
I am used to that kind of life out of things.
The last time I was replacing thing prematurely was the ill fated Windstall. We put that in the "if I knew then what I know now" category. 3.8 engine. Ford automatic. Ugh.
2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
That's only because those MANY of us that buy a Toyota never want to talk about the problems they have had. It's almost like we feel embarassed if we have to take it in for a repair. We all want to believe that we bought the best quality vehicle, but when it breaks down like any other, we don't want to admit that we were wrong. We want to overlook it and write it off as happenstance.
All vehicles will have problems of some sort or another. They all break down at some point if kept long enough. All any of us can do is learn from our past experiences and those of friends and publications we trust.
My immediate family has had great luck with Honda's (my side of the family) and Toyota's (my wife's side of the family). CR and JD Power back up our experiences. We'll continue to buy Honda and Toyota until our experiences change.
I've alternated between Japanese and American cars since I was 16. I was never sad to see the American cars go, but I still miss the Japanese cars.
Good god man, you've kept a car for 17 years and are complaining that it needs repairs?
No I am complaining about the repairs that were not needed and done by the Lexus dealer. Plus the recommended repairs that they wanted to overcharge for. Routine oil changes were about $105 starting from when she bought the car new. Always maintained by the same Lexus dealer, until we got married and I caught them in so many lies. The car still runs and looks like new with 87K miles.
out of warranty repairs are the ticking bomb on all new vehicles.
This is what I have been complaining about with all new cars. There is too much crap that will go wrong in just a few years. No one bought extended warranties in the 1980s or 1990s. Why? Because cars held up better and an extended warranty was considered a waste of money. Now everyone is afraid to keep a car past the warranty. What does that say about perceived reliability?
Maybe, maybe not. By the time all the high tech stuff makes it from the Flagship models like BMW/Caddy/Lexus down to the average car (Civic/Camry/Impala), that technology likely has most of the bugs ironed out. Further, by the time those parts are out of warranty and starting to fail that technology is 10+ years old so replacement won't be so costly and junkyards will be full of used replacements.
That said, were I buying a high end vehicle today and intended to keep it for the long haul, there's a lot of options I would avoid. Power adjusting pedals, power liftgates, etc are at the top of the list. Also anything with a central control center that controls several functions (AC/Stereo/Nav/etc).
Interesting how far from reality some folks seem to drift when faced with failure to get a point across--however wrong their point may be...... We have a 2000 Avalon XLS, bought new, now with 168,000 trouble free miles, and always serviced by our local Toy dealer. Great car. Great service. No complaints. Lube, oil,and filter changes cost +/-30 bucks. Tire rotation, brakes, tranny fluid and coolant changes are competitive with any other independent. Had a mass air flow sensor cleaned once--cost 100 bucks. Battery replacement with OEM model--110 bucks. We get regular flyers and newsletters from Toyota advertising most common maintenance servicing needs and none are out of line. None of the many routine maintenance items are any more expensive than independents, and in fact some are even less. So just how preposterous are these wacky claims about outragious costs which most of us haven't seen? Are these folks living on another planet? Are there some renegade dealers out there who risk losing their franchises by gouging customers? (I seriously doubt that!!) Lastly--why is Toyota being held up as any different from other manufacturer's dealers. Most, if not all of them seem to offer the same competitive pricing for routine stuff as Toyota does. Is there something going on out there these angry dissidents know about that we don't?
It will be interesting to see if buyers get that kind of service out of the 2007 Toyota vehicles. That is the title of this thread. Sounds like you got lucky with your dealer also.
We also have an 07 Camry. Purchased last Sept. I have no reason to doubt that our experience will be any different, and i believe it is the norm rather than the exception for most dealerships, Toyota included. Luck has little or nothing to do with it IMO. Reason for posting was to throw a little oil on the rather alarmist waters developing here because some claims being made about service costs and other issues were getting too far fetched. Either there are some with a godawful dislike for Toyota, or are just stirring the pot for the fun of it. Like most, Im more comfortable with truth in advertising.
Thank you for sharing your experience with us, t_rucky.
It's good to know that my own good experience with the local Toyota dealership was shared with other. The latest round of "Toyota service bashing" got my worried there for a while. :P
Dealer service varries widely, and has little to do with the quality, or lack of quality of the manufacturer. There are two local Ford dealers close by me. One I would never think of either buying from or taking my car to for service. I tried them once for a new vehicle purchase and once for service, both were some of the worst experiences I've had at a dealer. The other is amazing both during purchase and after.
I'll be very interested in what Toyota comes out with in 08 and 09. At present, they offer nothing that interests me. I prefer sporty cars, and all of their cars are pretty much grocery getters and family trucksters. I'd love to see honda start making some cars that appeal to people in search of a driver's car, rather than an appliance.
I've been hearing rumors of a supra for years. I'm not holding by breath. If they do bring it back, they'll likely make the same mistake they did last time, price it out of reach for 90% of the people who want one. Looks like I'll be getting a 350Z for my next ride.
My wife prefers small 4 or 5 doors with some oomph under the hood and a manual. We don't have the luxury of waiting until the 08 Matrix, Corolla, Xa, and Xb come out. Looks like a Civic Si or Mazda 3 will be her next car.
"You are a lucky man. My wife has a folder on the LS400 since it was new in 1990. There is right at $18k in routine maintenance and repair. No major repairs. Most periodic maintenance with filters, lube and oil change were right at $1000." ============================================================
Amazing!! If she is still driving the same mileage as with the '64 (17k per year) that comes out to six cents per mile! Even at half that mileage it is only twelve cents per mile. Everyone I know would kill for anything that low in costs; it is virtually unheard of. The national average is somewhere around thirty cents per mile for all cars combined.
A good rule to follow is after the initial servicing of a new car to find a local reputable repair shop and have them do everything except safety and recall repairs. Your costs will be about 40% less and you will make friends along the way.
The generally low repair costs is one reason resale is so high.
"Especially when rags like CR quit giving them higher marks than they deserve." ============================================================
To pick out one item from a generally strange post; it is not CR that is giving them high marks, it is over a million surveyed owners of all cars that give them the high marks. When they have a bad one, as in the MR2, it shows up as a bad one. Some GM vehicles are now showing great marks, some Nissans are showing poor and so on.
A better indicator is to look at the "Would you buy that car again" numbers and see some developing trends with the Japanese weakening slightly, but not significantly, and Americans gaining moderately and steadily.
"That's only because those MANY of us that buy a Toyota never want to talk about the problems they have had. It's almost like we feel embarrassed if we have to take it in for a repair. We all want to believe that we bought the best quality vehicle, but when it breaks down like any other, we don't want to admit that we were wrong. We want to overlook it and write it off as happenstance." =========================================================== Awfully risky territory looking into the minds of others to determine their motives and methods of operation. I could use some advice on the next market move mtyself!
"Why? Because cars held up better and an extended warranty was considered a waste of money. Now everyone is afraid to keep a car past the warranty. What does that say about perceived reliability?" ============================================================Now this is getting very, very strange. no one who has followed the US car market for any length of time could make this statement. Every private and government study, survey, and analysis around points to the increasingly longer life of cars. In the late 60's, when I was still in auto repair, for a car to reach 100000 miles was a sheer act of persistent maintenance and immediate repair. Generally everything from the fuel, cooling, and electrical systems, and the engine, drivetrain, brakes and the rest broke down with amazing frequency and at significant cost in 1960's dollars. Then along came the Japanese and the rest is, unfortunately, history.
I am in California - there is a little of everything on the road here including the occasional Japanese, European and American car - all driven by engaging eccentrics. Why would anyone else want to drive a car from that era? and I say that as someone who owned several??
Yes, I visited L.A. in Dec. '05, and I saw old cars of every description still running around, most still looking good. (Lack of road salt must help.) Lots of old Beetles. Classics from the 50s and 60s. I even saw one Yugo moving under its own power!
...we're back to the domestic vs. imports arguments again?
About dealers, a lot of them, regardless of the manufacturer's name on the sign, will try to gouge you for unnecessary "service," like the infamous fuel injection cleaning, transmission flush, or even power steering flush. They'll charge the moon for changing a timing belt -- luckily more and more cars are ditching belts for chains.
In my burg, the same dealership group has quite a number of franchises, both domestic and import. The Honda and Chrysler/Dodge vehicles are sold out of the same building.
You can bet that they pull the same stunts with all service customers. I get their mailings for sales and service -- good for laughs. Lots of locals gladly drive 20-40 miles to neighboring towns to buy their cars. I myself advised my son in buying a Prius in one of these other towns last summer.
For me, I won't darken the dealer's door for service except if it involves warranty or recall work, which has been seldom to never with my former and current 3 Camrys and one Frontier. I also do as much of my own maintenance/repairs as possible, using the same nearby independent for close to 15 years for work that I can't (or prefer not to) do.
#1 on the list is that the survey is not random. It's as far from it as a survey could be.
How many Camry 6 cyl owners for 2005 were surveyed? How many 4 cyl owners for Camry 2003 were surveyed? How many owners of those Tauruses for 2002 were surveyed? How many miles did those cars have? What kind of care had they had? Had they been overserviced by forced visits to the dealer as someone posted earlier? (that preventative maintanace can be good for a car.) How many? They don't tell. But they want us to trust that they can can do a Cleo fortune-telling guess about each car.
Data that tells how many repairs and what kind are collected by other companies but we're not allowed to get those.
The only true data for a vehicles reliability is hidden in the records of the automaker. They are the only ones that know how many widgets fell off of a 2002 Tacoma. They cover the warranties and sell the parts. I can guarantee the automakers records will not be published.
Trusting any publication to give you credible data on an individual car is a crap shoot.
The average buyer trusts the dealer to give them honest appraisal of problems on their out of warranty car. I think that is wishful thinking. Before the warranty expires you have to beat them into replacing a defective part. After the warranty every nut and bolt is going to cause you to be stranded if not replaced on that visit to the shop.
"How many Camry 6 cyl owners for 2005 were surveyed? How many 4 cyl owners for Camry 2003 were surveyed? How many owners of those Tauruses for 2002 were surveyed? How many miles did those cars have? What kind of care had they had? Had they been over serviced by forced visits to the dealer as someone posted earlier? (that preventative maintenance can be good for a car.) How many? They don't tell. But they want us to trust that they can can do a Cleo fortune-telling guess about each car.
Data that tells how many repairs and what kind are collected by other companies but we're not allowed to get those." ============================================================ Your response is disingenuous and creates a distortion of the reality. It "Cleo-guesses" a pro Japanese bias when the same "Cleo - guesses" could be a pro American bias in that our cars are far more inferior than indicated, but CR is covering up for them. In CR's case we have evidence, in your case we have "Cleo-guesses".
The surveys have been under way for decades and have now included more than 20 million responses including 1.3 million this time around. These surveys have factored out to clear trends over time going back to 1947. While one may argue that the surveys show "selection' to use a statistical term , their duration mitigates against that, as well as does the breadth of the owner population surveyed. When there are not enough samples received to reach statistical significance CR states that "Insufficient data" was received in that cars column. Also, the surveys always ask for the mileage on the car and the results are adjusted based on those numbers; this is clearly stated in their publication. Other CR surveys indicate that the CR group shows no significant difference in the maintenance habits of American and other car owners. "Forced maintenance" is a limited but universal problem facing the entire range of makes and certainly existed when I worked at the Chevrolet agency in my early days in the 60"s. That problem prompted CR to recently run a significant article warning people to avoid wasting their money on unneeded service and repairs. Ironically for dealerships, the increased reliability of all cars has created a vacuum of service and repair needs and some are creating "phantom" needs. When there is a statistically significant difference between say a Camry 4 and a Camry 6, which has more suspension problems, they give it two columns. American cars have shown an incremental improvement against european cars over the last few years similar to the trend that developed slowly in the Japanese favor beginning in the 70's and 80's. In one very recent annual publication the surveys indicated that American cars as a group. with significant outlyers, were now as reliable as the Japanese were 10 years ago, which was very reliable - it is just that the bar got raised through the improved overall numbers. Remember at some point the cars can not be more than 100% reliable for any given period of time. Additionally cars as a whole have shown a significant improvement in longevity and reliability in the surveys which is why CR now includes 10 years of used car buy recommendations instead of only six or seven; this is also stated in their publication.
As to the illogical conspiracy theory of "data collected by others" but not available to us; - well, their is always someone claiming superior insight, information and intelligence, unavailable to us mortals, who is always unable to provide more than enuendo in support of their claim. Iraq and WMD's come to mind.
>Your response is disingenuous and creates a distortion of the reality. It "Cleo-guesses" a pro Japanese bias when the same "Cleo - guesses" could be a pro American bias in that our cars are far more inferior than indicated, but CR is covering up for them.
You need to read the original post. Nowhere was a bias one over another mentioned. Hot air on your part. Disingenuous I believe.
>As to the illogical conspiracy theory of "data collected by others"
You don't seem to have understood that the car manufacturers have actual data s to repairs under warranty and out-of-warranty on models done by them. Other car warranty sellers also have data. IIRC someone collects those data pieces but it's not something we as buyers can get. That data would tell the seriousness of repairs by past models on a dollar basis.
As for the politics in your post, I have no idea what innuendoes have to do with cars, which are the topic.
"The only true data for a vehicles reliability is hidden in the records of the automaker. They are the only ones that know how many widgets fell off of a 2002 Tacoma. They cover the warranties and sell the parts. I can guarantee the automakers records will not be published.
Trusting any publication to give you credible data on an individual car is a crap shoot.
The average buyer trusts the dealer to give them honest appraisal of problems on their out of warranty car. I think that is wishful thinking. Before the warranty expires you have to beat them into replacing a defective part. After the warranty every nut and bolt is going to cause you to be stranded if not replaced on that visit to the shop." ============================================================
Some of you folks are living in a bleak world of conspiracies of silence, dishonesty, unfounded distrust, manipulation, a total dismissal of the car owners experience, and who knows what else!
That same view seems to translate itself into some of your posts as well which tend to skirt reality and common sense and create a phantom world.
A very large number, if not in fact most people do not take their cars to the dealership after the warranty expires. The Big Bad Manufacturer has less information than broad surveys on the reliability of cars because they do not control the after market parts market, or the independent Auto Repair shops, or the do it your self repair person. The people with complete repair information are the owners who respond to surveys such as CR's. One could say that no one should be trusted, including CR, but then, following your logic, that would also reflect on you being untrustworthy in your motives and statements as well.
I would like to see American cars make a come back; some of the CR data indicate that trend is underway in the reliability numbers. Also 54% of the Ford cars they tested were recommended buys, beating out Mitsubishi (43%), Hundai (42%), VW/AUDI(45%), and Volvo (40%), and nearly equaling Nissan's 59%. Toyota (85%), Subaru (100%), and Honda (100%) still lead.
"You need to read the original post. Nowhere was a bias one over another mentioned. Hot air on your part. Disingenuous I believe."
Deny it as you wish, it is clear and denial won't make it go away.
"You don't seem to have understood that the car manufacturers have actual data s to repairs under warranty and out-of-warranty on models done by them. Other car warranty sellers also have data. IIRC someone collects those data pieces but it's not something we as buyers can get. That data would tell the seriousness of repairs by past models on a dollar basis."
More disinformation. The surveys cover ten years of results, not just the short warranty periods. Warranty sellers are to be trusted now but not CR? Even if so, the sampling would be truly tainted through selection. Further, you have given no reason to believe that their "information" would be in any way different than CR's owners true experience. Additionally, you can derive a result of their "secret information" by getting quotes on say a Chrysler mini van and a Honda mini van and compare the costs which represent underwriting experience.
As for the politics in your post, I have no idea what innuendoes have to do with cars, which are the topic.
My post was clear to you and was on the nature of "private information available to the truly informed like you that would prove your contention if it could only be revealed to the great unwashed".
Again, where is your evidence that the owners are wrong about their experiences, or that somehow CR can not be relied upon.
Also, you did not respond to my other refutations of your unsupported "Cleo-guess" posting.
From the number of dealers vs independent repair shops in my neck of the woods, I'd say most people take their cars to dealers, not indy shops. But that may be a factor of where I live.
Me, I go to a dealer, but only because I've always had good service there. It'll usually take a few visits to a shop before you can figure out how trustworthy they are.
As far as all the CR haters out there, people tend to develop a view and ignore or distrust anything that doesn't fit into that view. For example, if you're a brand X lover and see brand Y broken down on the side of the road, you'll likely think "more proof that brand Y is crap". If you pass a brand X car on the side of the road you're likely to think "wow they must have really mistreated that car". Anyone that has had different experiences must be lying or stupid.
What's funny is if you look at the "would buy again" surveys. No matter how bad a car is, some people would buy it again. I'm sure Yugo had some repeat buyers. :P
I love getting people talking about past experiences with cars at parties and such. Generally their responses are fairly close to what I would expect.
>The surveys cover ten years of results, not just the short warranty periods
The surveys are only as good as the method of collecting and the data collected. It's obvious you're not going to understand the deficiencies of a truly random sample and a well-designed set of questions for collecting that information. You're just going to keep throwing out silly comments that I don't this or I don't that. You're not going to change. I understand what's happening in the data collection. Twist words how you want.
The Buicks which I have chosen have received good ratings. I have to dig out my auto issue of CR but I believe the Lucerne is rated well.
I'm done reading your allegations that are less than respectful. We disagree. Have a good day.
...toward Consumer Reports. Especially for Buick owners since this make has historically done well.
In general CR seems to take it on the chin like Al Gore and the Toyota Prius. Why?
The "buff books" OTOH seem to get a free ride, despite having to prostitute themselves for advertising revenue and the resultant "all cars are (almost always) wonderful" reviews.
I also disagree with the allegation of "forced maintenance" for Toyota and Honda only. The previous poster hit the nail on the head by saying that all dealers, due to more reliable cars and longer regular service intervals, have had to scramble to find new ways to make money in their service departments (VW, Land Rover, and Mercedes possibly being excepted).
Thus, the push to change the oil every 3000 miles (still) because of the heat/cold/desert/city/mountains/unpaved roads/take your pick, requiring "severe service" intervals. Then there's the lucrative fuel injection cleaning and transmission flush. I've even read about 100% nitrogen being promoted for filling your tires instead of "plain old" air (which happens to be 78% nitrogen anyway).
Last time I checked, the consumer always can say NO THANKS! And vote with his/her feet by taking their car elsewhere for service. Edmunds and other websites have plenty of solid advice for maintaining your car without getting hosed.
Anyway, if any of you out there want to participate in building a new mousetrap for reliability surveys, there's this. (Note: I am not affiliated in any way with this site.)
They have set themselves up as a data-based, statistics-driven precise reporting magazine, while they aren't really working that way. They make conclusions based on their opinions along with _some_ data. Some of that data, as I've said, may be based on enough responses which are accurate and unbiased enough from the customers who choose to return the responses; some of that data is based on fewer responses; and some may be from people reporting how they want to see things reported-which may be a natural emotion about the car you love or that you hate.
They have presented themselves as a source of info that is the be all end all. The buff books report how they as driver's who prefer sporty cars find the cars meeting that sports car, high performance requirement. I found a magazine recently in a waiting room about the Roll Royce some model or another Bentley model, I believe they were. That also isn't of much appeal to 95% of the posters here but is a specialty group of cars they tested because people like to read about it even if they never have hope or reason to shop those models.
As for dealers pushing service it happened much more in past years based on coworkers comments. You also recall gagrice's comments in another discussion here about their Lexus dealer. IN this area, at those times, the GM, Ford, Chrysler dealers those coworkers visited didn't push required services beyond company owner manual requirements. Neither did the GM dealers whom I frequented for my service. I understand your experience in your area of the country may be different, both then and now.
End of my discussion and back to the regular program Toyota in 2007 currently in progress.
that this is supposed to be a thread about the unique challenges Toyota faces in the year to come, and perhaps the ones after that?
If Toyota is benefitting from a false perception that it is more reliable than it really is, that will only INCREASE sales.
If some feel that it is becoming a widespread realization that this is a false perception, a supposition I would heartily disagree with, that's worth a few posts at most given Toyota's continually escalating sales of most models, and then we should move on, eh?! ;-)
All the folks who think Toyotas are overblown should feel free to buy something else - indeed, 14 million people in the U.S. alone did exactly that last year!
Can't we all just get along? :-)
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
"End of my discussion and back to the regular program Toyota in 2007 currently in progress." ===========================================================
Hardly the response to the questions posed to you that would be required of the subject "Toyota in 2007".
One of the main sources of information for Toyota, as people have experienced it here, is CR. Your attack on its reliability based on your opinion, misunderstanding of their processes and rejection of their statistical methods called into question the reliability of that information.
You then support your position be quoting the experience of others on this board as more than anecdotal and in fact present it as representative rather than individual - a complete rejection of the statistical method, and one you accuse CR of being subject to.
You further re-stated those claims in defense of themselves as somehow more significant when re-stated.
As CR pointed out in their piece on dealer maintenance, it is a universal problem not confined to a region or make.
As pointed out by others; unlike the buff mags that I read as a kid until it was apparent that everything they touched was fabulous, CR does not depend on revenue from those companies ads. They may be fun and sometimes have engaging writing styles, but they are primarily fun
Emunds, a useful source of information as recommended by CR, usse phrases that are purely subjective in describing cars here.
Further CR states quite openly that when their is an opinion it is from a panel, not an individual, and frequently gives the breakdown of opinion by that panel.
Your statement "Some of that data, as I've said, may be based on enough responses which are accurate and unbiased enough from the customers who choose to return the responses; some of that data is based on fewer responses; and some may be from people reporting how they want to see things reported-which may be a natural emotion about the car you love or that you hate." is purely your own opinion without any evidence to support it.
Additionally, as already reported here, your statements about process are inconsistent with those of CR, do not represent the evidence in their reports, and cast aspersions on those reporting to CR, as well as on CR itself.
Further, CR states that cars with the lowest ratings are not necessarily unreliable, and that cars with the highest ratings are not necessarily problem-free. This is in part an outgrowth of the statistical axiom that "what is true of the individual is not necessarily true of the group, and what is true of the group is not neccessarily true of the individual".
As we discuss Toyota and its rise to within a hairs breadth of becoming the number one producer of cars in the world, information from CR on Toyota and its comparisons to other cars remains valuable. Undermining that information with unsupported claims does nothing to further that discussion.
I have no affiliation with CR, edmunds or any other company mentioned on these boards.
"Repeat buyers of Yugo" is very funny and probably occurred as you stated. I think there is still an active Yugo owners club somewhere in California.
Even as Chrysler minivans were melting down, the number of people who loved the car was still very high until just recently. I actually like driving them, and for me they are very comfortable.
On that same thought; I always engage people about their experience with their cars and recently rode with a cabby who drives a Venture. The last one he had went 367000 miles (!!) and finally had to be retired because of metal fatigue in the body/frame - it buckled diagonally along the driver/ passenger seat lines. It had the original engine and the second automatic transmission. He admitted to less than recommended maintenance. He bought another, and why not?
I think CR sometimes suffers from the burden of being the messenger of bad news, now apparently reversing, and that the messenger should be rejected (killed) because the news is disliked.
As for our subject, Toyota in its future, CR only recommended 85% of Toyotas it tested in contrast to years past, and to recommending 100% of Hondas and Subarus. Nissan had fallen from grace some time ago and now shows some sighs of recovering with a 59% recommended, nearly tied with up and comer Ford with 54% recommended.
Toyota's numbers could be blip, or a trend and CR will be one of the primary sources to watch for confirming information.
"From the number of dealers vs independent repair shops in my neck of the woods, I'd say most people take their cars to dealers, not indy shops. But that may be a factor of where I live.
Me, I go to a dealer, but only because I've always had good service there. It'll usually take a few visits to a shop before you can figure out how trustworthy they are."
I meant to reply to this in my last post but it got to long.
Access would be a problem, but it seems largely based on geography. Where I am we have at least 25 Indy Toyota shops for the two dealerships within a 10 mile radius. CR did a survey of experiences with dealerships, Indy's, and chain shops in reference to brakes, exhaust and one other repair, and I believe dealerships were last on the frequency of use list; maybe someone can check that out. The repair categories were chosen as being universal to all vehicles and were a test of satisfaction at different types of repair facilities. As I recall, the highest rating for satisfaction of repairs were the Indy's.
Glad that you have had good experiences at the dealership. Is it a small area where people rely a lot on each other and on community involvement?
Glad that you have had good experiences at the dealership. Is it a small area where people rely a lot on each other and on community involvement?
Galveston is small in size (it's an island) but not so much in population (60K). We have more indy shops in numbers, but most are small (maybe 1-2 mechanics and 2-3 "helpers".
I think the reason the local dealerships are so good is because of the owner. He seems to run a tight ship. Nearly every time I get my car serviced I get a call within two days from a 3rd party asking about my experience. In the service department at least, there is a very low turnover. I see mostly the same faces every time I go back. Another thing I like about dealers is that they've seen many of the same vehicle you have and know the weak parts. I had a Chevy I took to two different shops multiple times to fix a stalling problem with no luck. Took it to a Chevy dealer and they knew what was wrong before they even popped the hood.
In general, I think the Indy's are better, but finding a good one can be a pain. In my experience, there's a lot of bad ones, and it often takes some time and lots of money before you figure it out. There's also the good Indy's that everyone knows is good and have long waits as a result. Finding one that's good AND fast is the trick.
As CR pointed out in their piece on dealer maintenance, it is a universal problem not confined to a region or make.
I pretty much agree with CR on that one. I was pointing out that my experience with A Lexus dealership and A Toyota dealership was less than desirable. I got called everything but a liar. So CR confirms my experience. I was ready to dump our LS400 until we found an honest independent. Now the car should be good for another 10 years. It should have close to 135k miles by then and ready to be put out to pasture.
Even as Chrysler minivans were melting down
Not sure where you are getting your info on that statement. Both the Dodge and Chrysler mini vans are up in sales over 2006. The only top selling mini van losing sales is the Sienna. Further indication of Toyota's deterioration.
Where I am we have at least 25 Indy Toyota shops for the two dealerships within a 10 mile radius.
Is that an indictment on the reliability of the Toyota name plate? In our area I searched far and wide to find ONE Lexus independent. We have several Lexus dealers in San Diego. I have to drive 16 miles to get to, TLC a fine Lexus independent. For Toyota I see about as many independent repair places as dealers in our area.
By contrast my experience with two out of the three GM dealers I have dealt with was very good. The one that I would not recommend as they could not find the problem in my 1993 Chevrolet PU Air conditioning. Was Bob Baker Chevrolet. Right next to Bob Baker Lexus. The same dealer that ripped my wife off before we were married.
If Toyota is benefitting from a false perception that it is more reliable than it really is, that will only INCREASE sales.
In the short term, yes. But, if the majority of people's experiences with their Toyota's didn't bear out CR's conclusions they would likely not purchase again and CR's reputation would not be what it is.
One problem with forums such as Edmunds is it's similarity to a customer comment card. You're much more likely to hear from minority who've had a bad experience than the majority who have had a positive one. I think the majority of drivers, whether driving foreign or domestic, have positive experiences with their cars. However, when you have a forum with Toyota in the topic, it will act as a beacon for everyone on Edmunds with a bad experience with a Toyota product or that's a booster of another make.
It's not that we are CR (Consumer Report) haters, we just don't think they are honest.
I would go to CR for information on toasters, TV's, and lawn mowers, but the articles, tests, and general information on auto's seems a little bit shady. I have read some of their auto tests and could tell that they were Japanese biased right away. The comments that the writer wrought were outright ridiculous.
With CR's recent child safety seat scandal in which they out sourced the test to another company, and admittedly had false information, just shows me more and more that you really don't know what to expect from this company and that their data shouldn't be written in stone, but should be questioned often.
due to the "comment card" phenomenon of Edmunds. Not only do the squeaky wheels get greased, but defenders of good experiences appear also. My experience with Lexus has been quite outstanding, actually, and I will state that categorically. I have been impressed with Toyota consistently, but wonder how long they can keep up the perfection they reputedly have, as they grow to global dominance proportion. When GM was dominant in the world, they were never perfect, just huge. Toyota, needs to do both.
At the moment, Honda seems to continue to have the edge for quality, but they never tried to be the largest, or even an all things.
It does amaze me how Honda can continue though, to put out the ugliest product on earth, and every one of them is still a mega hit (Ridgeline). It is only because they are so good.
Still, driving an Accord and a Camry back to back, I choose the Camry for ultimate driving ease and convenience. The Accord is much sportier in handling and ride, for the young at heart.
My hearty congrats on some excellent (and very welcome) commentary, Hypnosis44. Your insightful and objective analyses are refreshing, and it's nice to know there are a few folks who exhibit some unbiased common sense for a change. I was particularly impressed by the following (paraphrased) excerpt from one of your posts:
"Some folks are living in a bleak world of conspiracies of silence, dishonesty, unfounded distrust, manipulation, a total dismissal of the car owners experience, and who knows what else!
That same view seems to translate itself into some posts as well which tend to skirt reality and common sense and create a phantom world."
This properly describes what is sometimes seen in forums like this one where a decidedly anti(whatever make)dissident gets carried away with decidedly irrational negativism. But that's decidedly human nature, isn't it?
I have so many questions, so I apologize in advance for the length of this post.
The lease is up on my 2004 Camry XLE, V6. It has 30,500 miles and is very well equipped, and in great shape. The buyout is $12,700.00 The Toyota dealer's rate is 7.5%, a little lower than my bank. I have tier 1 credit. I want to keep the payments as low as possible, so I got the price for 60 month financing. If the tax and tags(913.00) are included into the financing, the payments will be $275.37 a month. For piece of mind, I feel I will need to get a warranty. I've been talking to Warranty Direct. Any thoughts on buying the warranty from them as oppossed to the Toyota dealer?
I had extended the lease till April 24, hoping that Toyota would come up with a lease special on 2007 Camry, and to get prices and drive comparable cars. It's down to the wire, and still no lease support. I haven't driven any 2007 cars as comfortable and well equiped as mine for anywhere near what my lease was, 390.85 for 36 mos, 12,000 miles a year, (that was with 0 down, sign and drive). The lease on 2007 Camry XLE's are ridiculous with the same terms.
Does it make sense to buy the car? I've heard I could use the equity I have in the car to negotiate a decent lease? How does that work?
If I sound confused that's because I am! I don't want to make a decision I will regret. Any suggestions will be greatly appreciated.
I've heard I could use the equity I have in the car to negotiate a decent lease?
Not usually. The Dealer can do it IF your car is worth more than the residual value - but it's not likely that's the case with a new model out. Good luck with that - I've only had that done once, because the dealer was my friend.
If I were you, I'd buy the car you have out of your lease for now, and then wait for the new model to get reasonable on lease terms, and make a deal then.
Any thoughts on buying the warranty from them as oppossed to the Toyota dealer?
The difference between buying the warranty from a second tier insurance company, and from the manufacturer of your car, will be this:
Your transmission fails this summer. You take it to the dealer to fix it because you want it done with new factory parts and expertise. If you have the Toyota warranty, they will fix it right, you will likely pay a $50 or so deductible, and on you go. But if you have a Schlock of Conneticut internet warranty, you get to pay for the repair, and submit the claim to the warranty company, and eventually, they pay you what they think is warranted to avoid a lawsuit. OR, perhaps the dealer or independent shop will call the warranty company and negotiate a price for the repair - but the warranty company wants them to put in a used transmission from a wrecked car, not a new one, and that's all they pay for. The difference between the two is $1500. You want a new one anyway, so you get to pay the difference. $1500, and warranty direct pays the other $1500. Not awful, you get the cost of your warranty back that way, but you also got a transmission with 30,000 miles already on it.
Personally, on a Camry that you've always owned and serviced, I'd skip the extended warranty. You won't need it, the odds are with you. But if you must have one in order to sleep at night, get the dealer/manufacturer warranty. If it's piece of mind you want, that's what you need.
This opinion was formed from my personal experience with my daughter's Caravan, I paid for the warranty, and I paid for the transmission!
The difference between buying the warranty from a second tier insurance company, and from the manufacturer of your car, will be this:
Or it could go like this: you hand you're extended warranty card that you got from Schlock of Conneticut internet warranty and the mechanic supresses a chuckle as he shakes his head. He then tells you that Schlock went belly up a couple of years after you purchased it and is no longer paying claims. It happened to millions of Warranty Gold policyholders.
Before I ever considered an extended warranty, I'd read the contract and make sure that the manufacturer is the administrator and is actually backing it, rather than a third party.
As far as buying the car at lease end, if you really like the car, go for it. I'd be very hesitant to go for an loan for that many years though. That car will be 9 years old by the time you're done paying it off. There's also a good chance of being upside down on the loan which blows big time if it gets totalled or your life changes and you need/want a different car. 60 months also means you're paying mad interest over the life of the loan. It's only my opinion, but if you HAVE to go 60 or 72 months on a used car, you likely can't afford it.
sounds like working for toyota is not such a good place after all, for a company that desperately wants to keep a union out you would think they would be a little smarter than this? http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/070331/clsa026.html?.v=1
UAW Vice President Terry Thurman, who attended the hearing, said the union is committed to providing "all the assistance we can" to Toyota workers.
Looks like the leach is looking for a new host. After sucking GM, FORD, and DC dry, they are out to destroy TOYOTA. The only difference is TOYOTA is a foreign company; if employees ever get the dumb idea of forming a union, TOYOTA can just close up shop and move elsewhere.
Comments
oil/filter 5000 mi/6 mo's ( required )...At several (many?) stores now these are free.
rotate tires 5000 / 6 mo's ( suggested )
inspect brakes 5000 / 6 mo's ( required )
That's it.................................it's all in the book
At your own descretion you can do..
..an annual engine flush or coolant replacement.
..spark plugs - 100,000 mi plus
..all new engines have timing chains - no replacement
..the rest of the potential services are wear items
That's a heck of a list.
On hoses and such I'd be ashamed if I were the dealer to say they were wearing out that quickly. My Accord at 128K still has the originals and they are in fine shape. My old Ody was at 117K and the original hoses when I traded it in on a newer one.
I am used to that kind of life out of things.
The last time I was replacing thing prematurely was the ill fated Windstall. We put that in the "if I knew then what I know now" category. 3.8 engine. Ford automatic. Ugh.
My immediate family has had great luck with Honda's (my side of the family) and Toyota's (my wife's side of the family). CR and JD Power back up our experiences. We'll continue to buy Honda and Toyota until our experiences change.
I've alternated between Japanese and American cars since I was 16. I was never sad to see the American cars go, but I still miss the Japanese cars.
No I am complaining about the repairs that were not needed and done by the Lexus dealer. Plus the recommended repairs that they wanted to overcharge for. Routine oil changes were about $105 starting from when she bought the car new. Always maintained by the same Lexus dealer, until we got married and I caught them in so many lies. The car still runs and looks like new with 87K miles.
out of warranty repairs are the ticking bomb on all new vehicles.
This is what I have been complaining about with all new cars. There is too much crap that will go wrong in just a few years. No one bought extended warranties in the 1980s or 1990s. Why? Because cars held up better and an extended warranty was considered a waste of money. Now everyone is afraid to keep a car past the warranty. What does that say about perceived reliability?
That said, were I buying a high end vehicle today and intended to keep it for the long haul, there's a lot of options I would avoid. Power adjusting pedals, power liftgates, etc are at the top of the list. Also anything with a central control center that controls several functions (AC/Stereo/Nav/etc).
We have a 2000 Avalon XLS, bought new, now with 168,000 trouble free miles, and always serviced by our local Toy dealer. Great car. Great service. No complaints.
Lube, oil,and filter changes cost +/-30 bucks. Tire rotation, brakes, tranny fluid and coolant changes are competitive with any other independent. Had a mass air flow sensor cleaned once--cost 100 bucks. Battery replacement with OEM model--110 bucks.
We get regular flyers and newsletters from Toyota advertising most common maintenance servicing needs and none are out of line. None of the many routine maintenance items are any more expensive than independents, and in fact some are even less.
So just how preposterous are these wacky claims about outragious costs which most of us haven't seen? Are these folks living on another planet? Are there some renegade dealers out there who risk losing their franchises by gouging customers? (I seriously doubt that!!)
Lastly--why is Toyota being held up as any different from other manufacturer's dealers. Most, if not all of them seem to offer the same competitive pricing for routine stuff as Toyota does. Is there something going on out there these angry dissidents know about that we don't?
Reason for posting was to throw a little oil on the rather alarmist waters developing here because some claims being made about service costs and other issues were getting too far fetched.
Either there are some with a godawful dislike for Toyota, or are just stirring the pot for the fun of it. Like most, Im more comfortable with truth in advertising.
It's good to know that my own good experience with the local Toyota dealership was shared with other. The latest round of "Toyota service bashing" got my worried there for a while. :P
Sounds like at Bob Barker Lexus, the price was wrong.
I'll be very interested in what Toyota comes out with in 08 and 09. At present, they offer nothing that interests me. I prefer sporty cars, and all of their cars are pretty much grocery getters and family trucksters. I'd love to see honda start making some cars that appeal to people in search of a driver's car, rather than an appliance.
I've been hearing rumors of a supra for years. I'm not holding by breath. If they do bring it back, they'll likely make the same mistake they did last time, price it out of reach for 90% of the people who want one. Looks like I'll be getting a 350Z for my next ride.
My wife prefers small 4 or 5 doors with some oomph under the hood and a manual. We don't have the luxury of waiting until the 08 Matrix, Corolla, Xa, and Xb come out. Looks like a Civic Si or Mazda 3 will be her next car.
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Amazing!! If she is still driving the same mileage as with the '64 (17k per year) that comes out to six cents per mile! Even at half that mileage it is only twelve cents per mile. Everyone I know would kill for anything that low in costs; it is virtually unheard of. The national average is somewhere around thirty cents per mile for all cars combined.
A good rule to follow is after the initial servicing of a new car to find a local reputable repair shop and have them do everything except safety and recall repairs. Your costs will be about 40% less and you will make friends along the way.
The generally low repair costs is one reason resale is so high.
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To pick out one item from a generally strange post; it is not CR that is giving them high marks, it is over a million surveyed owners of all cars that give them the high marks. When they have a bad one, as in the MR2, it shows up as a bad one. Some GM vehicles are now showing great marks, some Nissans are showing poor and so on.
A better indicator is to look at the "Would you buy that car again" numbers and see some developing trends with the Japanese weakening slightly, but not significantly, and Americans gaining moderately and steadily.
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Awfully risky territory looking into the minds of others to determine their motives and methods of operation. I could use some advice on the next market move mtyself!
============================================================Now this is getting very, very strange. no one who has followed the US car market for any length of time could make this statement. Every private and government study, survey, and analysis around points to the increasingly longer life of cars. In the late 60's, when I was still in auto repair, for a car to reach 100000 miles was a sheer act of persistent maintenance and immediate repair. Generally everything from the fuel, cooling, and electrical systems, and the engine, drivetrain, brakes and the rest broke down with amazing frequency and at significant cost in 1960's dollars. Then along came the Japanese and the rest is, unfortunately, history.
About dealers, a lot of them, regardless of the manufacturer's name on the sign, will try to gouge you for unnecessary "service," like the infamous fuel injection cleaning, transmission flush, or even power steering flush. They'll charge the moon for changing a timing belt -- luckily more and more cars are ditching belts for chains.
In my burg, the same dealership group has quite a number of franchises, both domestic and import. The Honda and Chrysler/Dodge vehicles are sold out of the same building.
You can bet that they pull the same stunts with all service customers. I get their mailings for sales and service -- good for laughs. Lots of locals gladly drive 20-40 miles to neighboring towns to buy their cars. I myself advised my son in buying a Prius in one of these other towns last summer.
For me, I won't darken the dealer's door for service except if it involves warranty or recall work, which has been seldom to never with my former and current 3 Camrys and one Frontier. I also do as much of my own maintenance/repairs as possible, using the same nearby independent for close to 15 years for work that I can't (or prefer not to) do.
#1 on the list is that the survey is not random. It's as far from it as a survey could be.
How many Camry 6 cyl owners for 2005 were surveyed? How many 4 cyl owners for Camry 2003 were surveyed? How many owners of those Tauruses for 2002 were surveyed? How many miles did those cars have? What kind of care had they had? Had they been overserviced by forced visits to the dealer as someone posted earlier? (that preventative maintanace can be good for a car.) How many? They don't tell. But they want us to trust that they can can do a Cleo fortune-telling guess about each car.
Data that tells how many repairs and what kind are collected by other companies but we're not allowed to get those.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Trusting any publication to give you credible data on an individual car is a crap shoot.
The average buyer trusts the dealer to give them honest appraisal of problems on their out of warranty car. I think that is wishful thinking. Before the warranty expires you have to beat them into replacing a defective part. After the warranty every nut and bolt is going to cause you to be stranded if not replaced on that visit to the shop.
Data that tells how many repairs and what kind are collected by other companies but we're not allowed to get those."
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Your response is disingenuous and creates a distortion of the reality. It "Cleo-guesses" a pro Japanese bias when the same "Cleo - guesses" could be a pro American bias in that our cars are far more inferior than indicated, but CR is covering up for them. In CR's case we have evidence, in your case we have "Cleo-guesses".
The surveys have been under way for decades and have now included more than 20 million responses including 1.3 million this time around. These surveys have factored out to clear trends over time going back to 1947. While one may argue that the surveys show "selection' to use a statistical term , their duration mitigates against that, as well as does the breadth of the owner population surveyed. When there are not enough samples received to reach statistical significance CR states that "Insufficient data" was received in that cars column. Also, the surveys always ask for the mileage on the car and the results are adjusted based on those numbers; this is clearly stated in their publication. Other CR surveys indicate that the CR group shows no significant difference in the maintenance habits of American and other car owners. "Forced maintenance" is a limited but universal problem facing the entire range of makes and certainly existed when I worked at the Chevrolet agency in my early days in the 60"s. That problem prompted CR to recently run a significant article warning people to avoid wasting their money on unneeded service and repairs. Ironically for dealerships, the increased reliability of all cars has created a vacuum of service and repair needs and some are creating "phantom" needs. When there is a statistically significant difference between say a Camry 4 and a Camry 6, which has more suspension problems, they give it two columns. American cars have shown an incremental improvement against european cars over the last few years similar to the trend that developed slowly in the Japanese favor beginning in the 70's and 80's. In one very recent annual publication the surveys indicated that American cars as a group. with significant outlyers, were now as reliable as the Japanese were 10 years ago, which was very reliable - it is just that the bar got raised through the improved overall numbers. Remember at some point the cars can not be more than 100% reliable for any given period of time. Additionally cars as a whole have shown a significant improvement in longevity and reliability in the surveys which is why CR now includes 10 years of used car buy recommendations instead of only six or seven; this is also stated in their publication.
As to the illogical conspiracy theory of "data collected by others" but not available to us; - well, their is always someone claiming superior insight, information and intelligence, unavailable to us mortals, who is always unable to provide more than enuendo in support of their claim. Iraq and WMD's come to mind.
You need to read the original post. Nowhere was a bias one over another mentioned. Hot air on your part. Disingenuous I believe.
>As to the illogical conspiracy theory of "data collected by others"
You don't seem to have understood that the car manufacturers have actual data s to repairs under warranty and out-of-warranty on models done by them. Other car warranty sellers also have data. IIRC someone collects those data pieces but it's not something we as buyers can get. That data would tell the seriousness of repairs by past models on a dollar basis.
As for the politics in your post, I have no idea what innuendoes have to do with cars, which are the topic.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Trusting any publication to give you credible data on an individual car is a crap shoot.
The average buyer trusts the dealer to give them honest appraisal of problems on their out of warranty car. I think that is wishful thinking. Before the warranty expires you have to beat them into replacing a defective part. After the warranty every nut and bolt is going to cause you to be stranded if not replaced on that visit to the shop."
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Some of you folks are living in a bleak world of conspiracies of silence, dishonesty, unfounded distrust, manipulation, a total dismissal of the car owners experience, and who knows what else!
That same view seems to translate itself into some of your posts as well which tend to skirt reality and common sense and create a phantom world.
A very large number, if not in fact most people do not take their cars to the dealership after the warranty expires. The Big Bad Manufacturer has less information than broad surveys on the reliability of cars because they do not control the after market parts market, or the independent Auto Repair shops, or the do it your self repair person. The people with complete repair information are the owners who respond to surveys such as CR's. One could say that no one should be trusted, including CR, but then, following your logic, that would also reflect on you being untrustworthy in your motives and statements as well.
I would like to see American cars make a come back; some of the CR data indicate that trend is underway in the reliability numbers. Also 54% of the Ford cars they tested were recommended buys, beating out Mitsubishi (43%), Hundai (42%), VW/AUDI(45%), and Volvo (40%), and nearly equaling Nissan's 59%. Toyota (85%), Subaru (100%), and Honda (100%) still lead.
Deny it as you wish, it is clear and denial won't make it go away.
"You don't seem to have understood that the car manufacturers have actual data s to repairs under warranty and out-of-warranty on models done by them. Other car warranty sellers also have data. IIRC someone collects those data pieces but it's not something we as buyers can get. That data would tell the seriousness of repairs by past models on a dollar basis."
More disinformation. The surveys cover ten years of results, not just the short warranty periods. Warranty sellers are to be trusted now but not CR? Even if so, the sampling would be truly tainted through selection. Further, you have given no reason to believe that their "information" would be in any way different than CR's owners true experience. Additionally, you can derive a result of their "secret information" by getting quotes on say a Chrysler mini van and a Honda mini van and compare the costs which represent underwriting experience.
As for the politics in your post, I have no idea what innuendoes have to do with cars, which are the topic.
My post was clear to you and was on the nature of "private information available to the truly informed like you that would prove your contention if it could only be revealed to the great unwashed".
Again, where is your evidence that the owners are wrong about their experiences, or that somehow CR can not be relied upon.
Also, you did not respond to my other refutations of your unsupported "Cleo-guess" posting.
Me, I go to a dealer, but only because I've always had good service there. It'll usually take a few visits to a shop before you can figure out how trustworthy they are.
As far as all the CR haters out there, people tend to develop a view and ignore or distrust anything that doesn't fit into that view. For example, if you're a brand X lover and see brand Y broken down on the side of the road, you'll likely think "more proof that brand Y is crap". If you pass a brand X car on the side of the road you're likely to think "wow they must have really mistreated that car". Anyone that has had different experiences must be lying or stupid.
What's funny is if you look at the "would buy again" surveys. No matter how bad a car is, some people would buy it again. I'm sure Yugo had some repeat buyers. :P
I love getting people talking about past experiences with cars at parties and such. Generally their responses are fairly close to what I would expect.
The surveys are only as good as the method of collecting and the data collected. It's obvious you're not going to understand the deficiencies of a truly random sample and a well-designed set of questions for collecting that information. You're just going to keep throwing out silly comments that I don't this or I don't that. You're not going to change. I understand what's happening in the data collection. Twist words how you want.
The Buicks which I have chosen have received good ratings. I have to dig out my auto issue of CR but I believe the Lucerne is rated well.
I'm done reading your allegations that are less than respectful. We disagree. Have a good day.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
In general CR seems to take it on the chin like Al Gore and the Toyota Prius. Why?
The "buff books" OTOH seem to get a free ride, despite having to prostitute themselves for advertising revenue and the resultant "all cars are (almost always) wonderful" reviews.
I also disagree with the allegation of "forced maintenance" for Toyota and Honda only. The previous poster hit the nail on the head by saying that all dealers, due to more reliable cars and longer regular service intervals, have had to scramble to find new ways to make money in their service departments (VW, Land Rover, and Mercedes possibly being excepted).
Thus, the push to change the oil every 3000 miles (still) because of the heat/cold/desert/city/mountains/unpaved roads/take your pick, requiring "severe service" intervals. Then there's the lucrative fuel injection cleaning and transmission flush. I've even read about 100% nitrogen being promoted for filling your tires instead of "plain old" air (which happens to be 78% nitrogen anyway).
Last time I checked, the consumer always can say NO THANKS! And vote with his/her feet by taking their car elsewhere for service. Edmunds and other websites have plenty of solid advice for maintaining your car without getting hosed.
Anyway, if any of you out there want to participate in building a new mousetrap for reliability surveys, there's this. (Note: I am not affiliated in any way with this site.)
Now, back to Toyota in 2007...
They have set themselves up as a data-based, statistics-driven precise reporting magazine, while they aren't really working that way. They make conclusions based on their opinions along with _some_ data. Some of that data, as I've said, may be based on enough responses which are accurate and unbiased enough from the customers who choose to return the responses; some of that data is based on fewer responses; and some may be from people reporting how they want to see things reported-which may be a natural emotion about the car you love or that you hate.
They have presented themselves as a source of info that is the be all end all. The buff books report how they as driver's who prefer sporty cars find the cars meeting that sports car, high performance requirement. I found a magazine recently in a waiting room about the Roll Royce some model or another Bentley model, I believe they were. That also isn't of much appeal to 95% of the posters here but is a specialty group of cars they tested because people like to read about it even if they never have hope or reason to shop those models.
As for dealers pushing service it happened much more in past years based on coworkers comments. You also recall gagrice's comments in another discussion here about their Lexus dealer. IN this area, at those times, the GM, Ford, Chrysler dealers those coworkers visited didn't push required services beyond company owner manual requirements. Neither did the GM dealers whom I frequented for my service. I understand your experience in your area of the country may be different, both then and now.
End of my discussion and back to the regular program Toyota in 2007 currently in progress.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
If Toyota is benefitting from a false perception that it is more reliable than it really is, that will only INCREASE sales.
If some feel that it is becoming a widespread realization that this is a false perception, a supposition I would heartily disagree with, that's worth a few posts at most given Toyota's continually escalating sales of most models, and then we should move on, eh?! ;-)
All the folks who think Toyotas are overblown should feel free to buy something else - indeed, 14 million people in the U.S. alone did exactly that last year!
Can't we all just get along? :-)
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
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Hardly the response to the questions posed to you that would be required of the subject "Toyota in 2007".
One of the main sources of information for Toyota, as people have experienced it here, is CR. Your attack on its reliability based on your opinion, misunderstanding of their processes and rejection of their statistical methods called into question the reliability of that information.
You then support your position be quoting the experience of others on this board as more than anecdotal and in fact present it as representative rather than individual - a complete rejection of the statistical method, and one you accuse CR of being subject to.
You further re-stated those claims in defense of themselves as somehow more significant when re-stated.
As CR pointed out in their piece on dealer maintenance, it is a universal problem not confined to a region or make.
As pointed out by others; unlike the buff mags that I read as a kid until it was apparent that everything they touched was fabulous, CR does not depend on revenue from those companies ads. They may be fun and sometimes have engaging writing styles, but they are primarily fun
Emunds, a useful source of information as recommended by CR, usse phrases that are purely subjective in describing cars here.
Further CR states quite openly that when their is an opinion it is from a panel, not an individual, and frequently gives the breakdown of opinion by that panel.
Your statement "Some of that data, as I've said, may be based on enough responses which are accurate and unbiased enough from the customers who choose to return the responses; some of that data is based on fewer responses; and some may be from people reporting how they want to see things reported-which may be a natural emotion about the car you love or that you hate." is purely your own opinion without any evidence to support it.
Additionally, as already reported here, your statements about process are inconsistent with those of CR, do not represent the evidence in their reports, and cast aspersions on those reporting to CR, as well as on CR itself.
Further, CR states that cars with the lowest ratings are not necessarily unreliable, and that cars with the highest ratings are not necessarily problem-free. This is in part an outgrowth of the statistical axiom that "what is true of the individual is not necessarily true of the group, and what is true of the group is not neccessarily true of the individual".
As we discuss Toyota and its rise to within a hairs breadth of becoming the number one producer of cars in the world, information from CR on Toyota and its comparisons to other cars remains valuable. Undermining that information with unsupported claims does nothing to further that discussion.
I have no affiliation with CR, edmunds or any other company mentioned on these boards.
Even as Chrysler minivans were melting down, the number of people who loved the car was still very high until just recently. I actually like driving them, and for me they are very comfortable.
On that same thought; I always engage people about their experience with their cars and recently rode with a cabby who drives a Venture. The last one he had went 367000 miles (!!) and finally had to be retired because of metal fatigue in the body/frame - it buckled diagonally along the driver/ passenger seat lines. It had the original engine and the second automatic transmission. He admitted to less than recommended maintenance. He bought another, and why not?
I think CR sometimes suffers from the burden of being the messenger of bad news, now apparently reversing, and that the messenger should be rejected (killed) because the news is disliked.
As for our subject, Toyota in its future, CR only recommended 85% of Toyotas it tested in contrast to years past, and to recommending 100% of Hondas and Subarus. Nissan had fallen from grace some time ago and now shows some sighs of recovering with a 59% recommended, nearly tied with up and comer Ford with 54% recommended.
Toyota's numbers could be blip, or a trend and CR will be one of the primary sources to watch for confirming information.
Me, I go to a dealer, but only because I've always had good service there. It'll usually take a few visits to a shop before you can figure out how trustworthy they are."
I meant to reply to this in my last post but it got to long.
Access would be a problem, but it seems largely based on geography. Where I am we have at least 25 Indy Toyota shops for the two dealerships within a 10 mile radius. CR did a survey of experiences with dealerships, Indy's, and chain shops in reference to brakes, exhaust and one other repair, and I believe dealerships were last on the frequency of use list; maybe someone can check that out. The repair categories were chosen as being universal to all vehicles and were a test of satisfaction at different types of repair facilities. As I recall, the highest rating for satisfaction of repairs were the Indy's.
Glad that you have had good experiences at the dealership. Is it a small area where people rely a lot on each other and on community involvement?
Galveston is small in size (it's an island) but not so much in population (60K). We have more indy shops in numbers, but most are small (maybe 1-2 mechanics and 2-3 "helpers".
I think the reason the local dealerships are so good is because of the owner. He seems to run a tight ship. Nearly every time I get my car serviced I get a call within two days from a 3rd party asking about my experience. In the service department at least, there is a very low turnover. I see mostly the same faces every time I go back. Another thing I like about dealers is that they've seen many of the same vehicle you have and know the weak parts. I had a Chevy I took to two different shops multiple times to fix a stalling problem with no luck. Took it to a Chevy dealer and they knew what was wrong before they even popped the hood.
In general, I think the Indy's are better, but finding a good one can be a pain. In my experience, there's a lot of bad ones, and it often takes some time and lots of money before you figure it out. There's also the good Indy's that everyone knows is good and have long waits as a result. Finding one that's good AND fast is the trick.
I pretty much agree with CR on that one. I was pointing out that my experience with A Lexus dealership and A Toyota dealership was less than desirable. I got called everything but a liar. So CR confirms my experience. I was ready to dump our LS400 until we found an honest independent. Now the car should be good for another 10 years. It should have close to 135k miles by then and ready to be put out to pasture.
Even as Chrysler minivans were melting down
Not sure where you are getting your info on that statement. Both the Dodge and Chrysler mini vans are up in sales over 2006. The only top selling mini van losing sales is the Sienna. Further indication of Toyota's deterioration.
Where I am we have at least 25 Indy Toyota shops for the two dealerships within a 10 mile radius.
Is that an indictment on the reliability of the Toyota name plate? In our area I searched far and wide to find ONE Lexus independent. We have several Lexus dealers in San Diego. I have to drive 16 miles to get to, TLC a fine Lexus independent. For Toyota I see about as many independent repair places as dealers in our area.
By contrast my experience with two out of the three GM dealers I have dealt with was very good. The one that I would not recommend as they could not find the problem in my 1993 Chevrolet PU Air conditioning. Was Bob Baker Chevrolet. Right next to Bob Baker Lexus. The same dealer that ripped my wife off before we were married.
In the short term, yes. But, if the majority of people's experiences with their Toyota's didn't bear out CR's conclusions they would likely not purchase again and CR's reputation would not be what it is.
One problem with forums such as Edmunds is it's similarity to a customer comment card. You're much more likely to hear from minority who've had a bad experience than the majority who have had a positive one. I think the majority of drivers, whether driving foreign or domestic, have positive experiences with their cars. However, when you have a forum with Toyota in the topic, it will act as a beacon for everyone on Edmunds with a bad experience with a Toyota product or that's a booster of another make.
I would go to CR for information on toasters, TV's, and lawn mowers, but the articles, tests, and general information on auto's seems a little bit shady. I have read some of their auto tests and could tell that they were Japanese biased right away. The comments that the writer wrought were outright ridiculous.
With CR's recent child safety seat scandal in which they out sourced the test to another company, and admittedly had false information, just shows me more and more that you really don't know what to expect from this company and that their data shouldn't be written in stone, but should be questioned often.
with the babyseat anchors last year?
toyotas answer was to install a passenger side airbag
shut off switch.................
At the moment, Honda seems to continue to have the edge for quality, but they never tried to be the largest, or even an all things.
It does amaze me how Honda can continue though, to put out the ugliest product on earth, and every one of them is still a mega hit (Ridgeline). It is only because they are so good.
Still, driving an Accord and a Camry back to back, I choose the Camry for ultimate driving ease and convenience. The Accord is much sportier in handling and ride, for the young at heart.
Your insightful and objective analyses are refreshing, and it's nice to know there are a few folks who exhibit some unbiased common sense for a change.
I was particularly impressed by the following (paraphrased) excerpt from one of your posts:
"Some folks are living in a bleak world of conspiracies of silence, dishonesty, unfounded distrust, manipulation, a total dismissal of the car owners experience, and who knows what else!
That same view seems to translate itself into some posts as well which tend to skirt reality and common sense and create a phantom world."
This properly describes what is sometimes seen in forums like this one where a decidedly anti(whatever make)dissident gets carried away with decidedly irrational negativism.
But that's decidedly human nature, isn't it?
The lease is up on my 2004 Camry XLE, V6. It has 30,500 miles and is very well equipped, and in great shape. The buyout is $12,700.00 The Toyota dealer's rate is 7.5%, a little lower than my bank. I have tier 1 credit. I want to keep the payments as low as possible, so I got the price for 60 month financing. If the tax and tags(913.00) are included into the financing, the payments will be $275.37 a month. For piece of mind, I feel I will need to get a warranty. I've been talking to Warranty Direct. Any thoughts on buying the warranty from them as oppossed to the Toyota dealer?
I had extended the lease till April 24, hoping that Toyota would come up with a lease special on 2007 Camry, and to get prices and drive comparable cars. It's down to the wire, and still no lease support. I haven't driven any 2007 cars as comfortable and well equiped as mine for anywhere near what my lease was, 390.85 for 36 mos, 12,000 miles a year, (that was with 0 down, sign and drive). The lease on 2007 Camry XLE's are ridiculous with the same terms.
Does it make sense to buy the car? I've heard I could use the equity I have in the car to negotiate a decent lease? How does that work?
If I sound confused that's because I am! I don't want to make a decision I will regret. Any suggestions will be greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
Shellie
Not usually. The Dealer can do it IF your car is worth more than the residual value - but it's not likely that's the case with a new model out. Good luck with that - I've only had that done once, because the dealer was my friend.
If I were you, I'd buy the car you have out of your lease for now, and then wait for the new model to get reasonable on lease terms, and make a deal then.
The difference between buying the warranty from a second tier insurance company, and from the manufacturer of your car, will be this:
Your transmission fails this summer. You take it to the dealer to fix it because you want it done with new factory parts and expertise. If you have the Toyota warranty, they will fix it right, you will likely pay a $50 or so deductible, and on you go. But if you have a Schlock of Conneticut internet warranty, you get to pay for the repair, and submit the claim to the warranty company, and eventually, they pay you what they think is warranted to avoid a lawsuit. OR, perhaps the dealer or independent shop will call the warranty company and negotiate a price for the repair - but the warranty company wants them to put in a used transmission from a wrecked car, not a new one, and that's all they pay for. The difference between the two is $1500. You want a new one anyway, so you get to pay the difference. $1500, and warranty direct pays the other $1500. Not awful, you get the cost of your warranty back that way, but you also got a transmission with 30,000 miles already on it.
Personally, on a Camry that you've always owned and serviced, I'd skip the extended warranty. You won't need it, the odds are with you. But if you must have one in order to sleep at night, get the dealer/manufacturer warranty. If it's piece of mind you want, that's what you need.
This opinion was formed from my personal experience with my daughter's Caravan, I paid for the warranty, and I paid for the transmission!
Or it could go like this: you hand you're extended warranty card that you got from Schlock of Conneticut internet warranty and the mechanic supresses a chuckle as he shakes his head. He then tells you that Schlock went belly up a couple of years after you purchased it and is no longer paying claims. It happened to millions of Warranty Gold policyholders.
Before I ever considered an extended warranty, I'd read the contract and make sure that the manufacturer is the administrator and is actually backing it, rather than a third party.
As far as buying the car at lease end, if you really like the car, go for it. I'd be very hesitant to go for an loan for that many years though. That car will be 9 years old by the time you're done paying it off. There's also a good chance of being upside down on the loan which blows big time if it gets totalled or your life changes and you need/want a different car. 60 months also means you're paying mad interest over the life of the loan. It's only my opinion, but if you HAVE to go 60 or 72 months on a used car, you likely can't afford it.
Looks like the leach is looking for a new host. After sucking GM, FORD, and DC dry, they are out to destroy TOYOTA. The only difference is TOYOTA is a foreign company; if employees ever get the dumb idea of forming a union, TOYOTA can just close up shop and move elsewhere.