Toyota on the mend?

gagrice

I just matched the Silverado LTZ crew 4WD 6.0L with all the gadgets at $42k The Tundra limited crew 4WD with all the same gadgets is $46k. What say ye? Must be some big rebates that Edmund's has not gotten from Toyota.

kdhspyder

Reg Cabs sit like they were cemented in place.
Unless they can get the CrewMax ramped up faster it will have a 90 day waiting list at most dealers.
The Double Cab is the meat and potatos vehicle and it turns well.

In all fairness I think the Sierra and then the Silverado are a very small notch above the Tundra in toto. I think the Tundra is their equal mechanically. It also has far more standard features across the board but the T900's are the class of the field now. I see GM having a hugely profitable year with the T900's gaining a lot of sales from Ford and Dodge defectors.

All bets are off if gas stays above $3/gal for a long time.

kdhspyder

Good point.

I was surprised when one of the former posters here ( jreagan ) brought this up. I had thought that from the midsized vehicles upward the Tundra had a price advantage. It doesn't in the Limited trims.

Looking at the volume and pricing picture it now makes more sense.

Reg Cabs are intended to be only 10-15% of the total production. They are presently priced WAY too high, but it's only a small volume.

Double Cabs are intended to be 55-70% of the total production. They are presently $2000 - $4600 under their competition. Looking only at MSRP, rebates aside.

Limited Trims and CrewMax's are equal to or higher than their competition but again the volume is relatively small.

So where the most head-butting with the competition will occur, the pricing is very much in line. With only a couple of hundred thousand units to sell it doesn't make a lot of sense to fight tooth and nail for a small volume.

gagrice

I think the crew makes the most sense for a family that wants the utility of a truck and the convenience of a car. If my Sierra was a crew instead of the extended cab with those horrible overlapping doors I would keep it. I am looking at a large luxury SUV and just get an old beater truck for the few times I need it. I will look at the new Tundra. I don't think it will appeal to me. UNLESS they were to put a small diesel in a 1/2 ton crew. That would be a good reason to switch from GM.

210delray

But Toyota's 2007 Tundra Double Cab is like the other guys' crew cabs -- it has 4 front-hinged doors and plenty of room in the back seat. The Crew Max will be more like Dodge's Mega Cab.

gagrice

guess I better check them out. The Dodge Mega Cab is SOooooo long that you cannot find parking. Is the Toyota the same length?

geo9

Again you forgot to read............
Not to mention you ignore Edmunds comparator.....

Aside from side air bags or that 6 speed wonder tranny
and the $6000 price difference in the WT vs. sr-5. GM
still has standard comfort and extra operating features
that are lacking in the tundra UNLESS you get the $40,000
limited............

Now with that big price difference not to mention the
actual OTD price of Dodge, Ford and GM fullsize trucks
with rebates etc. shows that the tundra won't sell to
well as shown in last months sales figures.........

Remember I was comparing BASE trucks 4wd small v-8 4x4.
The $6000 cheaper unit as well as the majority of trucks
that will sold this year!

toyota missed the boat again!!!!!!!!!!

geo9

Wrong again spyder..................
Your claim of wrong product mix at dealers is incorrect.

Heres a SMART dealer thats loaded with plenty (30)of $40k
plus double cabs and a few (10)reg. cabs too.............

Please note this dealer is using toyotas typical bag o'tricks to inflate sticker prices: ALL WEATHER GUARD PACKAGE
CARPET FLOOR MATSCARGO MAT
BEDLINER WOUT RAILS
FRONTREAR MUDGARDS
SPORT PCKG and lets not forget your favorite SET (or whatever YOUR dealer calls that extra charge regional dist. fee in your area).

http://www.boch.com/boch/common/aspx/SearchResults.aspx?StoreID=2&model=Tundra&s- - - -

kdhspyder

NO they ignored the boat leaving... As I mentioned before why fight over a basic trim work truck. With limited volume let the Detroit3 have all of it.

The area that they want to compete in is the SR5 vs the 2LT vs the SLE vs the XLT vs the SLT.

If you want to persist in comparing the WT vs the SR5 then yes the price difference is whatever you want it to be. But it doesn't matter. At some time in the future when larger volumes have to be met then maybe fighting over these trucks will make sense ... but not now.

Do the comparisons: SR5 vs 2LT vs SLE vs XLT vs SLT .. Big V8's,

Ahhhh but now if you bring in rebates then that just a function of having to meet certain volume goals. Given that the Silverado is such a superior vehicle to the rest of the market and it's MSRP is higher than the Tundra's...why should it have to be rebated? It's only to generate enough sales to meet plant volume requirements in a slackening market.

kdhspyder

Boch is in the Northeast where all business has been slow due to the snow.

Now take the 2nd largest Toyota store in the nation Laurel/Carmax in MD, where the weather has been resonable and here is the picture. It's significantly different.
Laurel/Carmax Tundra inventory
12 .. V6 RC WT
3 ... 4.7L V8 RC
4 ... 5.7L V8 RC
14 .. V8 Double Cabs
0 ... CrewMax's

nippononly

Age 50 for Scion?

In this article:
http://www.autoweek.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070322/FREE/70319009/1528

is the following quote:

"Still, Scion has had success in reaching its young buyer base. More than half have been under 35, Toyota says.

Part of the reason that Scion is hitting its Gen Y target..."

Seems like Scions's median buyer age is one of the lowest in the industry. I hear it stated just exactly that way again and again when I see articles about Scion.

I think Toyota would do very well to have a fourth Scion model available in the next year or so, again something taken directly from the Japanese market without any "Ameri-fying", and hopefully something weird and wacky as only the home market Toyotas can be!

poncho167

Toyota and pretty much any company looking to attract young buyers will always claim to be youth oriented or give an incorrect age that is years lower than the actual buyers age. Last year the Toyota Scion brand was 42-years-old which is something they didn't care for because they want those buyers in more expensive Toyota's not entry level cars.

PF_Flyer

If you want to discuss the pickup trucks in detail, please head over to the Pickups Message Board and use the approriate discussion there.

This discussion is supposed to be about the Toyota COMPANY and its outlook for 2007. While I understand that different vehicles are going to come up, this is not the place to get into pickups comparisons or into the never-ending domestics vs imports battle.

kdhspyder

It's anecdotal only but in an area where the demographics are 'mixed' ( not just urban, not just retirees and not rural ) the only buyers shopping the Scions are those under 30. It's rare to see any older person actually buy one for personal use.

However since most young people in the 18-24 y.o. range have no resources whatsoever except their job, or are in debt up to their eyeballs after school, it's very often the parents or grandparents cosigning the loan. The buyer with the better credit score goes first and 'appears' to be the owner. But...they are definitely not the driver.

A community of primarily retirees would skew all the stats.

drfill

Bringing in the youth.

Scion execs want a exclusive, low-volume dealership experience from high-volume, low pay-scale Toyota sales reps. Not gonna happen.

The salesmen turn-and-burn, just like everywhere else. This isn't BMW/Mini.

DrFill

gagrice

The only Scion I would recognize without a second look is the xB. I mostly see men driving them. Most are over 50 years old. Same goes for the Element. The one person with a Scion xB that I talked to was under 35. He liked the mileage, did not like the performance. The ones I see with the fancy wheels are older people driving them. I went and sat in the xB. Roomy enough for a shopping car. Way over priced at my local Toyota dealer.

anythngbutgm

Scion would do well with a 20k roadster. Something like a SOlstice/Sky but with the Toyota quality and a better engine. Heck, keep options to a minimum, drop the 1.8 or whatever litle 4 they are planning on using in the Corolla, maybe 180 - 200hp, RWD, 6-speed gearbox (All Kappas retain 5-speeds plucked from the Colorado pickup truck = nasty) and they'll have a winner.

Something like an old MG-B or TR-6, light nimble, work for the power... That would be on my wishlist. :shades:

poncho167

I am sure that some may have been purchased by parents but that should not be more of an age factor than would those who bought Cavaliars, Escorts, or any other entry level car. The pricing of the Scions is on the high-side for an entry level model.

poncho167

"Something like a SOlstice/Sky but with the Toyota quality and a better engine."

The Toyota quality isn't much different than the two cars you mentioned. Last time I checked Toyota was not in the lead in this department, especially with the million plus recalls in the last two years.

ruking1

I think another way to put it: Toyota is where Ford, DCB, GM, etc, etc, aspire to be. Toyota has its product line from so called sub economy to upscale. (Lexus) The key for me is Toyota actually makes cars people want to buy in fulfilling its (inner) corporate goals.

maple2

The reason the whole frame is not boxed is that it does nothing but add weight.

wrong again spyder, fully boxed frame is stronger, now is it stronger than is absolutely necessary? That could very well be, depending on what application it is being used for.For an everyday driver back and forth to work with some recreational towing and such, the C channel frame is fine, the domestics all used them until recently. But dodge upped the ante, ford and chev followed suit, and toyota came to the party with an antique frame. Do you really think c/f/d just wanted to add weight to their trucks for no apparent reason ?They werent heavey enough already? Did you ever play with lego as a kid? did you build a 3 sided structure? How about a 4 sided structure? If not, this can be YOUR HOMEWORK then come back and tell us which one was stronger.
Now, again there is nothing wrong with a C channel frame but to state "There is no measurable effect. None. Zero. So what good is it. Dead weight in the truck reducing the payload at best." is just plain wrong

kdhspyder

OK I readily admit that the FBF is stonger. I've never said anything else.

Now give me one maeasurable criteria where the FBF added to the performance of the C/F/D/N.

Not towing, not hauling, not speed certainly. So what benefit did the other 4 get out of it? You tell me.

anythngbutgm

lol, check again, that's still a helluva a lot beter than the 7 million that GM had over the past 2... Or since we are delving back in time, how bout the almost 11 million in 2004 alone?

http://www.detroitnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070106/AUTO01/701060374/- - 1148

Even in 2006, GM outnumbered Toyota in recalls 2:1. I'd put my money on Toyota quality being above GM.

And to be back on topic, I really think a small economical roadster would be a hit. :shades:

maple2

the advantage with the stiffer fbf is that you can have a long wheel base truck and have the small panel gaps because there is little, to no flexing vs the open c frame which, because it will flex more, the gaps have to be wider in the first place to accomodate this

anythngbutgm

And the ride can get a bit jarring. Sure, you could offset that with softer springs but then you end up with a wallowing pig on the road as well as a sloppy turning radius.

One thing I noticed was the commercial for the GMC with the X-ray vision. Notice as it is going over the bumps how the bed appears to be close to slamming up against the back of the cab? If the FBF is super stiff, that much better than say the Tundra frame, why is there so much flex in this area? Imagine how bad it'll be when there is some actual weight in the bed...

I'm still not sold on the the whole FBF is better thing.

maple2

I'm still not sold on the the whole FBF is better thing.

then i ask you this, why go fbf part way and open c the rest, why not open c the whole frame? Unless your just trying to save a couple bucks

kdhspyder

This is precisely why the frame is designed this way. Most of the weight and ALL of the torque from the massive engine is concentrated under the hood. This is the area that needs to be the stronges.

Next the weight of the cab and all the occupants needs to be supported so that's why the middle section is a reinforced 'lipped in' C frame.

Finally there is little or no weight ( most of the time ) and no torque at all under the bed.

It's saving weight and designing the frame in the way it's going to stressed. The easy way to do it is just box everything.

Both systems will perform all the functions that any half ton truck will normally encounter.

maple2

Most of the weight and ALL of the torque from the massive engine is concentrated under the hood. This is the area that needs to be the stronges.

Half true, how do you suppose all this torque gets to the ground? think rear wheels

Next the weight of the cab and all the occupants needs to be supported so that's why the middle section is a reinforced 'lipped in' C frame.

I guarantee the cab and its passengers weigh more than the engine, regardless, wouldnt you want the cab to have the strongest part of the frame as well? I would like to be sitting in the strongest part of the truck.

Both systems will perform all the functions that any half ton truck will normally encounter.

agree whole heartedly and I have never said otherwise. just that if you want to go to the extremes (more than would be expected from a 1/2 ton) the fbf front to back is stronger

gagrice

I know this is not just about trucks. I will have to give the brakes to Tundra this year. They put 4 wheel discs on even the entry level truck. GM went cheap on the brakes this year. If they are trying to hold off Toyota gaining on the PU market GM needs to do better not less.

maple2

I agree that gm should not be cutting corners anywhere and they need to keep improving, toyota is coming hard with this tundra and they will steal some sales from gm/f/c no matter what the domestics do, although i think nissan and dodge will be hit hardest. But at the end of the day, for the same reasons the domestic cant seem to gain any ground in cars ie people are happy with their imports so take an impala for example, nice car, gets good reveiws, good mileage etc. But its only as good or near as good as the imports. they need to blow the competition away to get conquest sales back from toyhon. I think you will find the same to be true with trucks, people are generally happy with their domestic trucks, the tundra is as good in most respects, almost as good in some, and better in some. But as a whole package it dosent blow the competition away so most people will just stick with the brand they have.

drfill

And a black one driving, very nice, muscular styling!

Toyota knew what everybody else had, or was going to have, so not going FBF has to have several advantages for them to do it, when the competition is going in another direction. In essence, the truck has 3 different frames for different parts of the truck.

Under the cab a FBF is not needed because between the frame upo front, reinforced C-Channel and side door beams, plus curtain air bags, at the side of the cab, safety is not an issue.

FBF all throughout is great, but not necessarily better.

DrFill

w9cw

My sister who just turned 51 today just bought a new Scion tC. She loves it, and she's not the only "older" person I've seen driving tC's either.

m1miata

Well the xB seems to sell well with older people. I have seen plenty adults in this circus car. Kinda cute little thing, and I suppose perfect for running around town in - why not!
It is like the Honda Element, which seems to have attracted older buyers. Now the xA and tC may be a different age for buyers.

I see a new xB is on the way. Not as, shall we say cute though. Nissan Cube ever coming to the states? It is sort of interesting looking, as boxes go.

What would interest me from Toyota would be the Celica coming back as a RWD and selling below $24K with a six cylinder, or an i4 with some HP & torque. Maybe a real base model for $21K. Right now, Toyota has nothing I would be interested in. I got an Accord V6, which is fun to drive, and sells for a great price in the SE model.
Loren

cptchetco

Just to ad an angle to the discussion, while Consumer Reports gives Tundra a generally good review, it is noteworthy that its $2-30000 more than and F-150 and the Toyota costs $.06 cents per mile more to operate, with a lower rated weight capacity.

Oh! I just ran across the owner reviews of the Camry Solara. Not too impressive.

gagrice

When I looked at the xB it was with the idea I could get an around town car for under $15k. The dealer in El Cajon had added so much crap on the two they had, they were $20k before TTL. My wife and I liked the roomy feel of the xB. We did not test drive as we were pressed for time. For some reason they were pushing the FJ Cruisers they had lined up in front. I think I will wait until a decent EV hits the market for that around town vehicle. I don't think Toyota has that on their radar screen.

If any thing causes Toyota problems it will be dealers that are less than honest, arrogant and or greedy. Two dealers, Poway Toyota & Kearney Mesa Toyota never even came out to see what I was interested in. I sat in several cars under the canopy at Poway Toyota. I never saw a single person on the lot. About as bad as BMW and Mercedes dealers. I have never had that experience with the Big 3 dealerships. They are on you when you step out of your car.

imidazol97

>If any thing causes Toyota problems it will be dealers that are less than honest, arrogant and or greedy.

That's the case in my area. The salesmen acted like they had gold and you owned mud. When they condescend to talk to you on the lot, they start telling how poor the resale value is on 'other' brands.

A large deal opened about 30 miles away and flooded this area with advertising; I see lots of their cars in this market. Others must not like the local dealer either.

kdhspyder

Well to keep peace at home I sure hope that the new hybrid concept that Toyota announced in Detroit does hit the streets at some time soon. To me it looks like a Celica from Outer Space.

I USED to have an MR2 Spyder in my profile here. It was my wife's 'summer shoes' whereas the Highlander 4WD is her 'winter shoes'. But alas the MR2 had to be sent away for being bad. ( This is absolute confirmation of Gary's KISS theory of owning cars ). Interesting story.

m1miata

You like to get pounced on? I don't want those all too hungry animals sneeking up from behind -- ouch!

Yes, dealerships are different, and it looks like you did not find a good one yet.
That is not good. A dealer some 30 miles away had around five xB and some 21+ Prius parked for sale. And it is an honest dealership.

Loren

gagrice

I like for a sales person to greet me in the lot. This is not snow country where they have to put on a jacket to go outside. In contrast, we stopped to look at the new Acura MDX last week. A young man came out and greeted us and took us all through the finer points of the new MDX. He was very well informed on the MDX and all the competing models. Not once did he bad mouth any of the competitors offerings. One of the few pleasures I have had talking to a sales person at a car dealership. If the seats in the MDX were not rock hard it would be on the short list because of that salesman. I have NEVER met a Toyota salesman at a dealership that was well informed of their vehicles. Of course I am not including kdhspyder our well informed resident salesman.

lemko

Kids today must have very generous parents or grandparents. I bought my first new car on my own after I graduated from college - a new black 1987 Chevrolet Caprice Classic. Fortunately, I was nowhere near in as much student loan debt as a lot of kids are today. They're financially hobbled before they even get out of the gate.

lemko

Uh, wouldn't the Tundra's larger brake rotors, ring gears, and leaf springs add as much if not more weight than a fully boxed frame? Do these larger components really make a difference or is it a ruse for the rubes?

imidazol97

That's not bad spelling. I have been looking for a Tundra at a construction site around us. There are some smaller developers clearing and putting in roads and homes in groups around us. There is construction of businesses and offices. I have not yet seen one Tundra. I also check at the highway construction and repair areas along our roads, i.e., I70 and I75. Ain't seen one yet.

I have seen a lady and a man driving one. They looked like people who'd never put more than a bag of mulch in the back on a plastic liner to keep the bed clean.

Many trucks are bought and used that way. Over-sized brakes and all the other is a ruse. A solid frame will make the truck worth something to the buyer who's actually going to use it as a truck rather than a rapid gas consumer as most are around here. Pickups are mostly bought to "look the part" instead of a car with much higher gas mileage ability...

Lemko's right. If someone is using the truck as a work tool, those heavier parts would mean something to some users, but a solid box frame would mean more first...

ruking1

I would also agree with you. I would think the expectations have gone up tremendously also.

nippononly

I like to be able to look around without being attacked, as happens at most dealerships. Different strokes for different folks of course...

And I have never met a salesman at any dealership, regardless of brand, that knew anything about the vehicles. They all knew to push the sale of extended warranties though...funny story: when I bought my RSX, the sales guy told me for $3K extra, I could go for the type-S "and get the V-6"! :-P
When I first test drove the CTS, the guy at the Caddy dealership just about fell down laughing when I asked about availability of the manual. He told me Caddy hadn't sold a stick shift car in 50 years and never would. This was before the advent of all the V-models, but still...and you know, even at the GM Test Drive event, they had no stick shift CTSs. So I still haven't driven one, and I suppose I never will.
When I test drove the Cobalt, the guy was so clueless, he became like a parrot to my questions: "I will have to check on that when we get back. I will have to check on that when we get back. I will have to check on that...". But he sure did know about the extended warranty and prepaid maintenance programs, mentioned repeatedly in the course of the 10-minute test drive.

It's too bad you have so many dealerships in your area with bad business practices. Around here, I have never seen a Scion marked up or padded with useless packages of crap. Scion dealers do often have one car intended to be a demonstrator for the showroom that is fairly loaded up with accessories, just to show what kind of dealer customization is available.

m1miata

When inquiring about this and that of the cars on the lots, I find that most of the salesman are new and have come from another dealership. They seem to know more about the other car, which they sold, but of course is no good now. Gee, sorry to hear that they sold a defective product. Hope they are not doing so now. I have told some salesmen to just go to the Internet and look up all the information on the cars they sell. Wouldn't that make sense. Obviously a customer is going to have questions. Honda is not too bad salespeople wise. I have known some good Toyota salespeople too. Saturn has very nice showrooms and the people are always smiling, and trying to be friendly (a friend is someone buying your car of course), but not of their salespeople really know everything about the car. I recall the early years when they must have had a school to go to before selling the Saturn. They knew most everything about the car -- OK, what to say about the car. They use a book now with the competition comparison tests to show you how Saturn rules. Well, the Aura XR is pretty good. At least a solid effort compared to say the old Malibu.

The Cadillac CTS with a stick is something I have never seen. What the base car needed from day one was the telescopic steering column, a higher quality interior, lumbar supported seats, and one good engine. The 3.6 should be the engine.
Loren

jeffyscott

Maybe they find they sell more cars for more money by knowing sales techniques, rather than knowing about the car.

I've found when a salesman does know a lot about the car, I don't really care, because I still already know all or most of what he/she does. Meanwhile, someone else who goes in knowing nothing is not going to notice the salespersons lack of knowledge. So maybe knowing about the car is a no-win situation for them.

nippononly

Actually, based on anecdotal evidence from friends, it seems that what really happens is that if you go in knowing nothing, the salesman makes up answers to the questions you ask, and you believe him/her because why would you know anything different?!

I'm still curious to see that RSX with a V-6, although I fear it would be way too nose-heavy. :-)

The Saturn folks are pretty good, but mainly because they know where to get the info real quick. They do rely heavily on comparison books and the like. Not paying the sales staff on a commission basis has a huge beneficial effect on the quality of the staff, IMO.

Improving the dealership experience for Scion customers is going to be a huge bugaboo that Toyota may not be able to effect. They should make it an internet-only brand - you order it and arrange financing at home, then pick up your new car at the Toyota dealership nearest to your house.

uplanderguy

Speaking of "off its game":

Why does every Camry I see look like its exhaust pipe would get scraped off over a normal-sized speed bump? When you pull up behind them, it looks like a cheapo corner exhaust shop did the installation. I'm sure many will chime in to say how superior a low-hangine exhaust pipe is!

Bill P.

210delray

Well, the exhaust may look that way, but it doesn't scrape (this from an owner of 2 Camrys).

kdhspyder

Youre right on the looks, but it's only on the older models. The new '07 doesn't hang down like the previous models.

As 210delray noted it was never a problem. With 4 previous models and nearly 500,000 miles I never experienced any exhaust system problems. Never had to replace one.