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Comments
"Poor job of communicating during...": is that what they call deceit and risking people's lives these days?
>As part of our heightened commitment to quality assurance, we are fully committed to being more transparent.
I think we heard that same kind of promise in campaign 2008; will people fall for it again?
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Both should not be believed or trusted.
Chris Santucci and Irv Miller are credible.
Sikes and other Toyota execs who cooperated with trying to hide these facts are not credible.
We should be asking Chris Santucci and Irv Miller what they think of the Sikes case, they would tell the truth.
Good points. Shifting into neutral is not a simple flick of the wrist as in yours or my Toyota. Actually putting it in Park is the fastest way to disengage the HSD from driving the wheels. If you had never tried these maneuvers, who knows what the mind will conjure up? The car was not brought to a stop until a long uphill stretch with the emergency brake applied. The battery probably ran out of power. The rear brakes were still usable. I would imagine the attorney offered his services as soon as the incident occurred. He was already going after ToyLex on the Saylor case. It was a win-win for the attorney and Sikes. I don't think you will see a trial for Sikes. Toyota will pay him to shut up. Have you heard a peep from Sikes since he was told to talk to the press by the CHP?
Battery ran out of power? Weak sauce.
That would have occured well before he stopped. Wasn't he driving at speed for a long, long time? No way was the battery providing significant power for that long. Fail.
You seem desperate to believe Sikes.
I put him and the Toyota execs who forced Miller to retire in the same group - not trustworthy.
Toss them in the same jail and throw away the key.
Thanks for clearing that up for me. Must've flip-flopped my Toyota execs.
I repeat-Toyota's doomed.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
RUNAWAY AVALON DRIVEN TO DEALER WHILE MOTOR SURGING
Anyone?
Some cases ARE happening, and they are mysterious in their cause. Some other cases are questionable in nature.
Here is more detail about this case for those who can't watch the video (like me)
link title
Kevin Haggerty testifies before congressional panel on Toyota
Thursday, February 25, 2010
FROM STAFF REPORTS
Lawmakers asked no questions of Kevin Haggerty after he spent about five minutes testifying Wednesday before a congressional panel examining the Toyota recall.
Haggerty, of Union Township in Hunterdon County, told the story of how his Toyota Avalon mysteriously accelerated as he drove to work in December on Interstate 78.
His remarks came about 6 p.m. after hours of testimony by Toyota CEO Akio Toyoda and U.S. Transportation Secretary Raymond LaHood.
"The only way I was able to slow the car down was to put it in neutral," Haggerty, 45, said of that day.
He drove about five miles, alternating between neutral and drive, before pulling into the Toyota dealership where it had previously been serviced, he said.
With the car stopped outside the dealership, the brakes smoked and the engine revved, he said.
Haggerty, 45, was asked to testify because his was the rare case in which Toyota technicians actually witnessed a sticking gas pedal, which has led to the recall of millions of cars, officials said.
Even after the gas pedal assembly was replaced and the car returned to him, Haggerty said, Toyota couldn't pinpoint what was wrong.
His story gained national attention when it was featured on ABC's "Nightline."
"I agreed to an interview mainly because I wanted to help people," said Haggerty, who owns a sales company and received a new Hyundai Sonata free from another Hunterdon County auto dealer.
Notice what saved him?
PUTTING THE CAR IN NEUTRAL LIKE A THINKING HUMAN.
double duh, who'da thunkit?
But what you said was that there are no reasons to use rubber mats there. There are reasons to use them there. Not my reasons, just reasons that I explained. It's not about me no matter how much you want to argue foolishly.
Once again you overgeneralize instead of making intelligent arguments and providing facts to support your position.
How about coming down off your high horse and stop acting the know-it-all day after day? Everybody on this board who disagrees with you isn't the idiot you make them out to be.
And about that "poor designed throttle" in 8 million vehicles. I had an '06 Avalon and there was nothing wrong with the pedal or the mats; and I had the factory carpeted mats and Avalon-marked rubber mats. I tried to jam the pedal on them - even stacked them - and the pedal would NOT reach the mats.
If the design is at fault, assuming there is a fault, and it's not just a random manufacturing defect, then I assume there would be a significant number of failures and not the fraction of a percent that have been reported.
John
Nor is it about me. It is about 4 people that died because of UA in a Lexus ES350. Whatever the cause it was not the fault of the driver that died. And Toyota will pay dearly for covering up their problems with UA.
I think it is Chrysler who owes Daimler-Benz an apology, not the other way around. Soon possibly Renault & Nissan and FIAT will be owed an apology, and anything else Chrsyler touches quickly becomes worthless.
You're not serious are you? The car would run out of gas or blow up before a service rep made it out to the car. He also stated he WOULD NOT HAVE known to put the car in neutral if he had not seen the bit on ABC shortly before this happened to him. I am sure that Toyota wishes he had not made it to the dealership. That puts the monkey on their back to disprove electronic failures are not involved in UA.
Kevin Haggerty, a 45-year-old salesman from Pittstown, New Jersey, has seen plenty of car wrecks in his other job, a volunteer firefighter. When he went shopping for a car, he decided he wanted something safe and reliable, something that would protect his wife and two daughters, and that's what he thought he'd gotten when he purchased a new 2007 Toyota Avalon sedan.
But in mid-2009, he says he started having trouble with occasional episodes of random acceleration. Haggerty says his Toyota would start revving and picking up speed and he'd have to stand on the brakes to slow it down. And then, three days after Christmas, there was an episode that would have resulted in a high-speed collision on Interstate 78, and perhaps fatalities – had not Haggerty used what he'd learned from ABC News to bring his runaway Toyota under control before it crashed.
Haggerty says problems with his Toyota Avalon started in the middle of last year. Haggerty would be driving through his hometown at 25 miles an hour and the car would begin accelerating. He took the car to his Toyota dealership in November after a couple of incidents. The mechanics there said they didn't know what was causing it.
"They went through the car thoroughly and did all the diagnostic tests," said Haggerty, "and they couldn't determine why it was happening."
The dealership did not attempt to blame the problem on poorly fitting floor mats, which was the official Toyota corporate explanation for the issue.
By then, Haggerty had seen ABC News reports on uncontrolled acceleration, and had also watched a video on the Blotter about how to control an accelerating car.
Three days after Christmas, on Monday morning, December 28, Haggerty was traveling east on Interstate 78, headed to work, when he says the car started accelerating again. Soon the car had revved itself up to 65 miles per hour. Haggerty remembered the video.
"I had my foot on the brake," recalled Haggerty. The more he pressed the brake, the more the car accelerated. "It seemed like the accelerator was overpowering the brake."
As Haggerty started to panic, he thought back to the video he'd watched. "I could see why some people would want to keep hitting the brake, keep pumping the brake rather than go into neutral. But I remembered the safest thing to do is to go into neutral and control the car, and that' s what I did."
After getting the car under control, Haggerty called the dealership on his cellphone. He realized he was close to the interstate exit that would take him to dealership. They had told him they had never witnessed the acceleration first-hand -- now he was going to show them.
"I called the service manager," said Haggerty. "I told him I'm having the problem right now." They told him to bring the car in.
The car kept trying to accelerate, but switching from neutral to drive and back again as needed allowed Haggerty to steer the car onto an off ramp and the three miles to the dealership.
When he reached the dealership, the brakes and the tires were smoking. Haggerty put the car in neutral. The engine was still revving.
The first thing the service manager did, said Haggerty, was check the floor mat. The mat was still in place, attached to the floor with factory-installed brackets. "He even confirmed to me," said Haggerty, "that it's not the floor mat that's the problem. It was accelerating and he witnessed it. He sat in the seat and he witnessed it accelerate."
The service manager called a Toyota representative. According to Haggerty, the Toyota representative told the service manager to replace the gas pedal and the throttle and their sensors.
Haggerty has not had another incident of random acceleration since the parts were replaced. He feels fortunate that he was alone in the car on December 28.
"After I got out of the car at the dealership, the first thing I thought about was my family," said Haggerty. "And if they were in the car, if my wife was driving – you know, I'm not sure if she would have panicked and kept hitting the brake pedal and known enough to put it into neutral. That flashed through my mind, you know. If my wife and kids were in the car."
On Thursday, Toyota announced a recall of 2.3 million vehicles to fix sticky accelerator pedals. The company said the recall would cover Haggerty's Avalon. Haggery, however, says he does not have a sticky gas pedal.
Last fall Toyota recalled 4.2 million vehicles, saying that fixing floor mats and altering gas pedals would address random acceleration.
http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/toyota-driver-abc-news-videos-helped-save-life/sto- ry?id=9618954
So much for getting a Toyota tech to come out. :sick:
The contrast between this case and Sikes shows just how improbable Sikes story is.
He drove about five miles, alternating between neutral and drive
So that simple technique worked, again and again and again, just like the Operator instructed Sikes to do at least 3 times, which Sikes ignored.
Personally I think he was a little crazy to put it BACK in to drive rather than pulling over and calling a tow truck, but the fact that he simply put his in neutral and that worked REPEATEDLY shows it's not hard to do.
It would not blow up because all modern cars have rev limiters.
You don't know as much about cars as you think.
That would have saved them.
His continued driving a car with "occasional episodes of random acceleration"?
Seriously?
Didn't think to have it towed in for repairs?
Darwin was right.
The dealer employee who told him to bring it in? An even bigger idiot.
:sick:
Where is the Avalon built? Did it use a CTS throttle pedal?
Can anyone verify?
Assembly Georgetown, Kentucky, United States (1994–2000)
Altona, Victoria, Australia (2000–05)
So probably KY.
I notice you are quick to discredit anyone claiming to have a problem with their Toyota. Showing a distinct bias for the company. While I admit I have a bias against Toyota. Calling the driver an idiot for continuing to drive his car after several incidents of UA is uncalled for. He did take it into the dealer and was told the standard lie. Nothing wrong with your car. So when it went solid WOT he wanted to show the dealer he was not crazy. And did what he had to do to get the car into them as proof. Funny how so many of the faithful want to blame it on the driver. Then when a driver brings in proof positive that Toyota has some electronic issues with UA, they are tagged as idiots. Your Toyota bias is showing in blazing colors.
distinct bias
Nonsense. Read post 8114 again.
I still think it wasn't smart to continue driving a car at WOT after neutral worked the first time.
I guess I have self-preserving instincts. There's no way I would intentionally continue to operate a car that was actively and continuously malfunctioning. Seems obvious to me.
I'd probably call 911, actually. Then record what I observed with the video camera on my BlackBerry, as evidence.
I don't see how driving to the dealer was safe, or necessary for that matter.
You keep accusing me of bias, but I've already showed that long ago I was the one who was saying "let's wait and see" and not jumping to conclusions.
I proved that, yet you still continue to accuse me of bias.
http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/direct/view/.efda853/7510#MSG7510
Then I write "Actually, I believe him completely" about Kevin Haggerty here:
http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/direct/view/.efda853/8113#MSG8113
No bias here, proven twice.
Will you still accuse me a 3rd time? Let's see. :sick:
I will apologize as you are more balanced than most of the Toyota faithful on this thread. In fact a few posts back I thought we had won you over when the Irv Miller story surfaced. I believe Toyota is rotten to the core and needs to be knocked into the dirt. I felt the same way about the way GM conducted business. And the banks and insurance companies. So it is not just Toyota I am disgusted with. I think the greed and avarice shown by Toyota has given that bunch of losers in DC a golden opportunity to screw US all.
It's like Dumb and Dumber, and remember I said the Toyota dealer employee was the Dumber.
Call 911 and film it. Put it up on YouTube.
I believe Toyota is rotten to the core
I say bring the whistle blower out of retirement, make him CEO. Seriously. He was already a communications executive, right? Restore some credibility.
Fire everyone that resisted publishing these issues. Get rid of the old-boys network that allowed that to hapen.
I'm not sure how widespread that was, but he would know. He knew who to send those memos to. That's why he should be brought back and promoted.
I still don't believe Sikes story, not for a second.
I believe Irv and I believe this new guy, even though I don't think it was the smart thing to do.
Chris Santucci - lobbyist who NHTSA laughed at when he approached them about UA
Irv Miller - group vice president for environment and public affairs, retired, whistle blower
Help me out here, who was the guy who works for Toyota but came from NHTSA? And who was the recipient in Irv's memo? Fire them first.
Give Irv the highest job in the USA, and recruit Chris Santucci for a VP position or something.
but the fact is that Toyota deserves the fine big-time.
Their actions were egregious and illegal and just plain wrong.
also: what lemko said !
-----------------------------------------------------
right foot on gas, left foot to stab at the brake over and over. Sikes is a complete liar and if he was worth anything (but of course he is not which is why he just trying to get PAID) Toyota would be suing him.
Sikes story didn't make sense from the begining, and anyone who isn't so blinded by their biased hatred towards the company can see that.
He won't collect a DIME.....
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
-------------------------------
and what proof do you have that the car acted as Sikes has claimed? You believe a broke con man just like that?
Have you read the CHP report? The CHP officer adds enough credibility to counter balance my skepticism of both Sikes and Toyota. I will put you down on the list for Sikes gets $0. I still say Sikes gets $50k to keep quiet.
If Daimler Benz is a Vampire then Chrysler is rotten putrid Garlic.
He already spilled everything on the TV news.
What does he have left to "keep quiet" about?
Their actions were egregious and illegal and just plain wrong.
I don't doubt that Toyota has some corrupt employees. I just don't think a fine is the right kind of punishment here. It just puts more money into the hands of the government and government motors and makes Toyotas more expensive to the buying public.
I think they should criminally prosecute the willfully negligent people at Toyota. I think they should require the firing of key personnel involved in wrong doing. I think jail time for the wrong doers would be a good thing. I don't like the idea of a financial penalty hurting the whole for a few bad apples' actions.
Frankly, I haven't heard much about bankers, wall street execs, home loan sharks, and AIG insurance personnel going to jail, so I won't hold my breath for this to happen. Only in the latter cases, the people paying the "fine" were the taxpayers in the form of bailouts.
We have heard one very short interview from Sikes of his runaway Prius incident on TV. That was within a very short time after the incident. Do you really think that Toyota wants to take a chance of him being on the stand giving a complete rundown of his experience? He has had lots of time to hone his story. No matter if it is true or false. Toyota has no credible defense in the case. Toyota said He hit the brake multiple times and the throttle stayed wide open. There is NO defense for that happening. Whenever he hit the brake hard enough for the brake lights to come on the throttle should have shut down. There are witnesses to the brake lights and Toyota has already stated the throttle stayed Wide open. Would you take a chance like that with a Jury?
Toyota will pay him off to keep him quiet.
"A federal judge in Southern California was chosen Friday to preside over more than 200 lawsuits filed against Toyota in the aftermath of the automaker's sudden acceleration problems, which could potentially mushroom into one of the nation's biggest product liability cases.
More than 130 lawsuits are potential class-action cases filed by Toyota owners who claim their vehicles plummeted in value after the recalls.
At least 100 other lawsuits seek damages from Toyota for injuries or deaths attributed to sudden acceleration, which the U.S. Judicial Panel on Multidistrict Litigation determined should also be part of the centralized case."
Southern California court gets Toyota lawsuits (Yahoo)
He had no damages. His car was not even damaged.
What would be the basis of his suit? That he did not have the cojones/intelligence to put the car into neutral? "Afraid the car would FLIP?"
What kind of idiot thinks a car will flip if you put it into neutral?
Toyota lawyers would MASSACRE him in a trial, and rightly so.
Now that doesn't mean that Toyota won't sue Sikes. He should also be arrested for staging an accident. He is as bad as balloon boy...or do you believe him too?
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
Just a few issues to consider when evaluating Toyota/NHTSA are listed below.
(1)Toyota Hires defensive litigation firm Exponent engineers, researchers, etc. Exponent always does reports/studies defending their clients. Yes, and that includes fraudulant/corporate biased reports/studies. Ask University of California Medical Center Researchers. Exponent wrote/published articles tobacco doesn't cause lung cancer for tobacco industry. PGE hired Exponent for help regarding chromium pollution - lawsuit and PGE loss here in California. Recall the movie Erin Brockovich. Took almost 10+ years to correct the wrong PGE, Exponent, Chem Risk did in having published an audaciious fraudulant scientific study using a Chinese scientists name without his personal permission once study completed. I already knew of Exponent several years ago from our medical team review of scientific medical research. Champion MD researcher discusssed them at length. Exponent is excellent, but it's what they do/write that is highly questionable. Corporations hire them to protect their interests using their attorneys to actually do hiring of Exponent so Exponent and studies can be protected legally. Have had long list of unfavorable links about this firm for several years now. Here are a few.
This article explains quite well what PGE, Exponent, Chem Risk(Dennis Paustenbach - Exponents former Vice President) did here in California. This famous Blue Ribbon Panels findings were eventually thrown.
http://ntp.niehs.nih.gov/files/IJOEH_1202_Egilman.pdf
http://www.ehjournal.net/content/5/1/5
http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/students/envs_5720/michaels_2008_CH5.pdf
http://www.ehjournal.net/content/5/1/5
http://www.ewg.org/featured/219
http://www.usatoday.com/money/industries/energy/2006-02-06-pge-settlement-brocko- vich_x.htm
(2)Tinto and Santucci both worked for NHTSA before being hired by Toyota. Santucci worked hard to get UA/SUA complaints scope narrowed down so none of the serious longer duration UA/SUA complaints were considered starting about 2003, and this strategy may have affected how all NHTSA/Toyota approaches were handled in future. And as a result complaints did not look serious. Am only enclosing only one article, but have several.
http://www.businessweek.com/news/2010-02-11/regulators-hired-by-toyota-helped-ha- lt-probes-documents-show.html
(3)Toyota is presently being investigated by China for selling uncertified parts.
http://www.straitstimes.com/BreakingNews/Asia/Story/STIStory_512004.html
(4)Here is new article today by LA Times. Entitled Toyota getting tough now. Also the article reveals the pressure Toyota is now exerting upon Gilbert, consumers, etc. University of Maryland researcher who supports Gilbert is quoted. Since most University Auto Researchers depend upon support from the auto industry, these researchers are in dilemma, have fear of retaliation and lack of auto industry financial support. The researchers have to be very careful. University of Illinois will feel/have experienced retaliation from Toyota for Gilberts testimony. Just corporate politics coming into play. And Toyota does have a right to defend. But their presented facts/stances will always have to be researched extensively for validity. http://www.latimes.com/classified/automotive/highway1/la-fi-toyota-pushback9-201- 0apr09,0,7199827.story?page=2
(5)UA/SUA complaints - complaints can be arranged into different type categories/subcategories/etc. Some are real and some are not. People are human, and as humans, do not always react to emergency events as they normally would many times. It's called the human effect. College majors exist in this. Research exists on this. NHTSA has research going on at present regarding this "human effect." You can find "Human Effect" research on NHTSA website. Safety programs in private industries/public agencies always/should always consider "human effect" when they develop their safety approaches/programs/solutions. This includes employees, patients, public, etc. The people attempting/found to abuse claims of UA/SUA complaints can be dealt with through appropriate legal channels.
(6)NHTSA has their own problems when it comes to protecting auto industry corporations interests and concealing information regarding safety defects/complaints/problems of auto manufacturers from the public. And yes, this does/should concern all of us as we are the consumers. Seems TREAD Act is not protecting the public as law was intended. Auto manufacturer lawyers have found legal loophole in law. NHTSA is susposed to be our nationl public safety agency, but who are they really protecting - us or the corporations?? Does seem NHTSA has faced legal challenges from auto manufacturers. This confidential information rule legal interpretation is one area we all should be against. This is saying we don't have a right to problem/complaint information that a manufacturer feels would hurt their reputation. This is saying we have no right to protect ourselves.
http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=ecfr&sid=627935272268d3ecf356277- 05651518e&rgn=div9&view=text&node=49:6.1.2.3.5.5.1.5.4&idno=49
http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=ecfr&tpl=/ecfrbrowse/Title49/49c- fr512_main_02.tpl
(7)Etc..
He said he would not. I don't think he has much of a case to sue.
Toyota lawyers would MASSACRE him in a trial, and rightly so.
I hope you don't think Toyota is that stupid. Don't you think they learned a lesson with the Smith testimony in front of Congress? I don't think that Toyota wants him telling his story AT ALL. I think they will pay him to keep quiet, without his filing a suit or joining one of the hundreds being filed. Destroying someone on the stand can be a two edged sword. All he would have to do is say he was scared to death and did not know what to do when the car went crazy. The brakes would not stop him and he called 911 for help.
Neutral on the Prius is not like a real car transmission. Nor does it work the same. Not all drivers are created equal. Some people are not much good in a panic situation.
The most recent example of someone panicking and being killed. The earthquake last Sunday. A fellow runs out of his shaking home right into the path of a car and is killed. They counted that as caused by the earthquake. There are no laws against a person panicking. I think that is what happened to Sikes. Remember he did NOT want to go in front of the media. The CHP talked him into doing that. He just wanted to go home. He could be a potent witness for the many personal injury cases that are coming before the court.
Also, someone mentioned earlier that the dealer, and not Toyota, has liability.
Actually, they both do - Toyota as the manufacturer and the dealer as the retail seller, under the doctrine of strict product liability.
In fact, Toyota bears a larger proportion of the liability, as the dealer would seek any loss they incurred as a result of litigation against Toyota (or would be reimbursed by way of a pre-existing agreement or insurance policy).