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Comments
How can you be so sure of that? Will a San Diego jury agree with you? I don't like that dealer so it makes little difference to me. Are we positive the floor mat had the right part number on it from the factory? Too many what ifs to be sure.
I do believe the floor mats then the poorly designed throttles are a smokescreen to deflect from possible electronic failures. Don't forget the throttle body controller failure causing UA. How many other parts can and have caused UA?
At least Cali is import-friendly.
If this case were in Michigan they'd force Toyota to shut down.
Here, Toyota's TSBs identified a safety issue and warned dealers of the potential catastrophic consequences:
"If the floormat is NOT properly placed and secured, it could slip and interfere with the movement of the pedals during driving and may cause an accident," Toyota said. "NEVER install more than one floor mat at a time in the driver's seating position."
(My bolding; quoting from one of the Wash. Post article I pasted in a previous posting.)
Perhaps one could argue that this is true of all floormats in all cars. If that were the case, however, why is it that only Toy. floormats on Toy. cars have led to UA? That suggests that there is a design flaw in either the floormats or the pedal or both. In any event, I continue to believe that in this instance Toy. did pin it on itself by acknowledging in its 2007 TSBs that the interplay b/w its floormats and the pedal could result in an accident.
If I were GM I would do what GM did, especially when NBC later admitted they had an ignition souce (model rocket engines? or flares?) rigged to the gas tanks to make sure the tanks exploded. Or did you forget that part?
I'm sure the prosecutor will go after the ones with the deepest pockets, but Toyota made is abundantly clear to their techs, and the bone-headed dealer employee ignored all those instructions and even used mats from the wrong model.
is it that only Toy. floormats on Toy. cars have led to UA?
I'm not sure that's true. Search the NHTSA database and there are UA complaints for 90% of car models. At a minimum I'd say the cause is TBD (to be determined).
Toyota's pedals were close to the ground and weren't as fault-tolerant. Less forgiving of mistakes by an at-fault technician/dealer employee.
We can't blame Toyota for that, though. This is why we have ladders with a big STOP label at the top rung. Some people were dumb enough to keep climbing, but that's not the fault of the ladder manufacturer.
Here's how I see it:
Dateline NBC/GM = Sikes/Toyota
GM jumped on NBC and got on-air apologies. A domestic brand had enough power to do that. Public opinion swing in favor of GM, then they bury the fact that it was a poor design.
Actually, very similar to Toyota's gas pedal - not fault-tolerant.
I don't think an import brand like Toyota will ever get an apology from someone who perpetrated an obvious hoax. The economy is bad (especially Michigan's), so there's no way they'll get the same sympathy GM played to in the case of the exploding gas tanks.
IIRC, a young child was trapped in a GM pickup and was burned to death, absolutely horrifying.
http://www.fairwarning.org/2010/03/old-trucks-leave-fiery-legacy-smoldering-ange- - r/
Some articles found on Google attribute 600+ deaths to those tanks, in the order of 10x even the worst estimates for Toyota's UA claims.
Which bone headed employee or employees? And was the mat just laying there ready to pop into the loaner vehicle? Again no good reason for a rubber mat in San Diego. So it may have been a TSB that was not even mentioned to employees. You can bet that there is a lot of finger pointing going on at Bob Baker Lexus. From the top guy to the girl at the front desk.
So 20 years after the C/K GM trucks with dual tanks were said to be dangerous, this guy drives across the path of another vehicle. As so many here have stated it is the DRIVERS fault. If you cannot get your car into neutral when it is blasting down the highway at 120 MPH it is the drivers fault. How is that fiery crash, any different from the fiery crash last year that killed 4 people. Will Lexus change their design for the ES350? GM did a complete design change in 1988. I do not see any comparison here. It is a deflection from the poorly designed ToyLex vehicles. GM changed designs. So should Toyota. GM eliminated the dangerous gas tanks in their Trucks. Toyota needs to eliminate the possibility of UA.
Toyota's pedals were close to the ground and weren't as fault-tolerant. Less forgiving of mistakes by an at-fault technician/dealer employee.
We can't blame Toyota for that, though. This is why we have ladders with a big STOP label at the top rung. Some people were dumb enough to keep climbing, but that's not the fault of the ladder manufacturer.
I don't doubt most car models have at least one reported incident of UA; the question (for me) is whether the incidence rate for any of those other makes approaches the rate for Toyotas.
As to whether we can / should blame Toyota for the fact that it designed its pedals to be closer to the ground, I'm inclined to disagree, though I would have to know more info. than what has been reported in the press. If there is a risk that is reasonably foreseeable -- and plainly here it was (Toyota issued TSBs warning of the risk of accidents) -- the mfr. has an obligation to address that risk in an appropriate manner. Simply informing dealers may not be enough if the mfr. is aware that dealers are ignoring the instructions, as seemed to be the case here (that's the part I need more info about). Toyota does have some control over its dealers, so presumably it could strengthen the message or punish the dealers for non-compliance with its instructions. If Toyota decides for business reasons not to screw up its relationship with its dealers in that manner, then it has an obligation to address the known risk in a different, more effective fashion. Here, there is no question that Toyota knew about the safety risk presented by the interplay between its floor mats and the placement of its pedals. If its "fix" for that risk was not effective -- and let's face it, a TSB (even with some words in all caps) is the weakest form of message -- then it needed to go to "Plan B" (e.g., it could have conducted a special service campaign that, while short of a recall, would have been stronger than a TSB).
Will Lexus change their design for the ES350? GM did a complete design change in 1988
Yes, actually, they added the brake override. 2011 Siennas have it.
You're holding GM to a lower standard. Build safe gas tanks from now on. Yet you want Toyota to retroactively fix all those gas pedals.
Double-standard.
I looked at other minivans I considered and those have UA complaints yet no brake-throttle override.
As for the last point, I don't think you can recall a procedure for installation.
No sand? No dirt? No gravel? No road tar to track onto the nice carpeted mats?
You need to stop and think these things through before you post silly statements like that.
John
If this ever makes it to court it will be Toyota suing Saylor.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
Hopefully it works better than the Prius brake override.
GM paid off the NHTSA to the tune of $51 million to avoid recalling 9,000,000 PU trucks. The also paid off close to a half $billion in lawsuits. How much is that in 2010 deflated dollars? How much will Toyota pay to get out of the mess they are in? Closest estimate I have seen is about $5 billion.
Looks like the DOT let Toyota off real cheap... :sick:
The GM Recall settlement came almost 10 years after the last of the saddle tank PU trucks was sold. How far back should recalls go? I had a heck of a time with my 1964 Land Cruiser. Maybe we should get it recalled for horrible brakes. :shades:
Toyota is still selling vehicles with potential UA as we post.
Actually, so is everyone else.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
That will be difficult as he is no longer with US.
If you mean Sikes, he has had mental anguish and libel spread as a result of erroneous Toyota news statements. Remember 250 brake and gas pedal depresses. Later changed to 255 brake depresses while at WOT. Which according to Toyota should be impossible in the Prius. Toyota will settle with him. His testimony is not going to be blasted across the Globe.
"If you mean Sikes..."
Wow. I thought the idea of suing Saylor meant the toyota-lexus supports had really hit bottom in argument logic. Blame the dead guy and his family. Sue the heck out of them!
Oh, Sikes. Now what did Sikes do wrong? His Prius wouldn't quite accelerating the computer-controlled brakes didn't work. Sue him for buying a toyota-lexus-scion? :P
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
Bingo, I'm more concerned about competitors who haven't added that feature yet.
Toyota is ahead of the curve in this regard.
Re not being able to do a recall, Toyota in fact just did a recall for the floor mats, so if it did one just now, it could have done one before (and I therefore also assume it could have undertaken the less drastic remedial measure of a special service campaign as well).
Seems like both are trying to save face.
Of course I believe him. Toyota gave no proof that his Prius did not runaway as he said it did. Their evidence was the car was at WOT while the brakes were hit 255 times. If it registered being hit the throttle should have shut off. That is what Brake Override is supposed to do.
We will know who lied when Toyota pays him off. Sikes being a sleaze is not a good Toyota defense. If Sikes or the CHP was going to recant his story it would be in the News. The only thing undecided is how much Toyota pays for Sikes silence.
Irv Miller toyota in email
"Koganei further wrote that Toyota executives were concerned that news of the mechanical failures "might raise another uneasiness of customers.""
---do you think they would??? Duh.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Irv Miller toyota in email: http://www.businessweek.com/ap/financialnews/D9EUH9FG0.htm
"Koganei further wrote that Toyota executives were concerned that news of the mechanical failures "might raise another uneasiness of customers.""
---do you think they would??? Duh."
If this is accurate, Toyota is in a world of hurt the likes of which few corporations have ever been in.
I am astonished.
Kiichiro Toyoda must be turning over in his grave, and the Japanese will feel a tsunami of collective shame (as this is a cultural thing).
link title
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
And when that feedback arrived, from customers, and dealers, and insurance companies, and Toyota USA, and even from their own factory workers in Japan, they acted promptly...to hide it!
Knowing that lives were at stake and money could be lost, the highest level of management at Toyota decided to bury the information.
For all his alleged character flaws, Sikes looks like an angel in comparison to the top management at Toyota.
I believe that this is just the start now that the documents are being released for scrutiny
This email was sent just a couple of days before the big recall was made so Toyota listened to Irv Miller just as they should have.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
Gary, you have GOT to be kidding me !!!
They tested his car and it showed to be performing correctly !!!
Are you putting yourself into a position to believe ANYTHING that ANY LOSER says about Toyota, as long as it's bad?
You look like you have compromised your good judgment if that's your stance.
It has nothing to do with my judgment. It has to do with facts and the credibility of witnesses. We shall see who is and is not lying when and if the Sikes case goes to court. Those of you that believe that Sikes is trying to Scam Toyota do not have much evidence in your favor. A good attorney would tear that supposed 255 brake depressions to shreds in a NY Second.
Yes, but that's data from the throttle position sensor, no? So if he had his right foot on the gas, left on the brake, that's how it would read. The brake override would still work, but the position of the the throttle was still at WOT.
From that Washington Post article, first mentioned in post #7971, quote:
Some at the agency apparently did not seem to consider the floor mat inquiry a serious one, however.
"I ran into a lot of different investigators and ODI [Office of Defects Investigation] staff and when asked why I was there, when I told them the ES350 floormats, they either laughed or rolled their eyes in disbelief," Chris Santucci, a Toyota lobbyist, wrote in an August 2007 e-mail.
When you find the whistle blowers, like Chris Santucci and Irv Miller, they are the honest ones, and should be the star witnesses from here on out.
When I heard that Irv Miller was "recently retired" you gotta wonder - was he forced out?
There's your 2 star witnesses, folks.
Where is the mention of 255 hits on the brakes? I think they knew in a trial they would be shot down in short order and changed their story. You read it and make your own determination. It looks like the NHTSA has Sikes car for more examination.
http://pressroom.toyota.com/pr/tms/toyota/toyota-offers-preliminary-findings-155- 268.aspx?ncid=11092
Ironic choice of words given Sikes is a bankrupt porn peddler.
I said this before and I'll say it again, it's entirely possible that the whole Sikes thing was a hoax, yet UA is still very much a real issue.
"The NHTSA review, which includes two studies of the electronic throttle control systems in Toyotas, is to be completed by late summer, according to the Department of Transportation." (AutoObserver)
But if it's anything like the Audi 500 case, it may be 20 years before we get a real answer (if case you missed it, the Audi case is back at the trial court level after two decades of appeals).
Toyota Statement on Internal Communications Regarding Our Recent Recalls
While Toyota does not comment on internal company communications and cannot comment on Mr. Miller’s email, we have publicly acknowledged on several occasions that the company did a poor job of communicating during the period preceding our recent recalls. We have subsequently taken a number of important steps to improve our communications with regulators and customers on safety-related matters to ensure that this does not happen again. These include the appointment of a new Chief Quality Officer for North America and a greater role for the region in making safety-related decisions. As part of our heightened commitment to quality assurance, we are fully committed to being more transparent.
I would say Toyota's Credibility about now is ZERO. I give more credibility to the CHP witness than to Sikes. That leans the balance of justice toward his story.
Your point about the demise of Toyota is duly noted, though.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
Here are some interesting parts:
A Toyota carpeted floor mat of the correct type for the vehicle was installed but not secured to the retention hooks
Oops, but they said it was not interfering.
During testing, the brakes were purposely abused by continuous light application in order to overheat them. The vehicle could be safely stopped by means of the brake pedal, even when overheated
Speed up, apply the brakes lightly to wear them down, speed up, apply brakes lightly, speed up, apply brakes lightly. Foot was on the throttle the whole time.
Sikes' story has was too many inconsistencies. Why not try neutral when the operator told him three times, and he heard and responded? Why would that flip the car? How could a parking brake make a dramatic difference if the brakes were already shot? Why hire a lawyer if you're not going to sue?
You seem eager to believe anything anti-Toyota and that clouds your judgement.