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You don't "support something you don't know anything about" by getting associated with the entity performing said unknown act.
Weren't they all recalled for rusty frames, bad camshafts, defective throttles, poor brakes, weak suspension, frames and tailgates that fall off? Along with many reports of UA. I lucked out and got the last of the old style Toyotas, same as you. They did slip in their cheap made in India Denso NAV/Audio system. Unfortunately cheap NAVs are not considered a safety issue even if they do lead you onto private roads and you get shot at. :shades:
Cracks me up when people feel remorse about a purchase yet blame anyone but themselves.
The odds on a 2010 Toyota still running good in 2030 is near ZERO. I am tired of our LS400 that is going on 21 years old. But I am too frugal to get rid of it while it is running good.
It's hard to grow yet still maintain quality control, and the fact is Toyota simply grew too much, too fast.
The odds on a 2010 anything running in 2030 are near zero.
Oh, REally?
Who might this be who "tells" car companies to sell gas guzzlers?
Any specifics?
Or just conspiracy rabble? (ding! ding! ding! we have a winner)
Don't be so smug and drive your gas gussling Sequoia and apply your sense of justice to other cultures. You want to make a change, start in your own home.
Toyota light bulbs last "forever." You should know that. You never have to change a bulb. However, they did regularly service their Toyota's, just not at a Toyota dealer. But these services never included things that would not fall into routine maintenance.
Trust me, some of the Toyota's were flawless during my childhood when I lived at home, so I'd of known of any repairs. There was a Camry, a 4runner, and then another Camry. My brother bought a T100 pickup, then decided a Tundra was in order several years later. He liked to rub it in everytime the Neon was in the shop because his T100 was flawless. Oh yeah, my brother traded in his Tundra for a USED and LARGE Lexus SUV (can't remember the letter number combo - not the little RX, it was the BIG one?) That was a great SUV except it guzzled gas. When gas climbed over $4/gallon he came to his senses and got a brand new Corolla.
Oh yeah, he got someone to pay an arm and a leg for that SUV even though gas was high. So the high gas prices didn't affect certain top of the line SUV's as much in resale value (I thought he'd get taken to the cleaners for sure).
There's a little thing that good judges consider in a civil case. It falls under "due dilligence." If a claimant does not do their reasonable due dilligence to minimize and MITIGATE the damages as they are about to occur, or are currently occurring, then that is on them. Just because a vehicle is defective does not make that defect "at-fault" in an accident.
You can't just start to experience UA in a Toyota (or any vehicle for that matter) and say to yourself "YIPPEE, now I can sue Toyota for all their worth (and then aim your car for the nearest mother pushing a baby stroller)" You have to exhibit due dilligence with reasonable competence. That means you try shifting into neutral and avoiding accidents that are preventable. Anything less then that, and it's on you personally.
Just as you wouldn't leave a bowling ball in your driver's foot well while driving, you should not leave an incorrectly installed floor mat there as well, nor a poorly chosen floor mat that doesn't even fit or work right with the vehicle you are driving.
Also, sticking gas pedals exhibit signs and symptoms that they are starting to fail and have issues long before they fully fail. The driver has the responsibility to take care of a sticky throttle concern long before it becomes a "serious" issue.
If it is accident-free then I offer $1,000 dollars in US cash.
What's your best offer thus far?
Re floor mats, you perhaps have a somewhat better argument if one accepts the conclusion you are assuming, namely, that the issue is clearly visible and in plain sight (and I would add has been that way for some time and does not occur spontaneously, as the "slipping" that Toyota describes on its website suggests is the case). But it's not clear to me that the problem would be clearly visible and in plain sight in all or even most situations. Moreover, the fact that Toyota, dating back to 2007, issued multiple TSBs and then, finally, a recall re the floor mats warning of the dangers of crashes caused BY IMPROPER INSTALLATION (i.e., dealer incompetence, not driver incompetence) makes clear that this is indeed a problem that results from poor design by the manufacturer and poor execution by its dealers, and there is no appropriate basis for trying to fob off the blame on the consumers.
All of this, by the way, assumes that sticking pedals and poorly designed and installed floor mats explain the entirety of the UA issue. Jury's still out on that one, in my view.
Have you ever sat on a jury in a civil case. It has more to do with who has the best attorneys. When you are putting Toyota attorneys against insurance company attorneys it becomes a real crap shoot. Toyota will not want to expose themselves any more than they have to and will settle many questionable cases. We are talking $billions before it is all said and done over the next 20 or so years. Better unload your pile of TM stock while it is still riding high. It is down about $60 from its peak and headed lower.
Kinda' weird. If you buy your car in a neighboring state with free service, do you still get free service at your local Mid Atlantic dealer?
Seems to me that Toyota would be much better off if they made free service applicable to the whole country, and then promoted the heck out of it. That says, "We're sorry. We care. You can trust us and our cars. Here's a money saving, worry-free incentive for all of America."
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
"You want to make a change, start in your own home."
No offense, but why didn't you?
$2 grand.
It would be fun though to drive a smugmobile for a week or so and sneer at other drivers.
I walk to work most days, it's only 6 blocks. I could drive the new HL everyday and a tank of gas would last for months.
Oh, and about floor mats. Blaming the manufacturer for loose mats ignores the car washes that remove the mats, clean them and throw them back into the car. Not the maker's fault the reinstallation was poorly done. Nice try at pinning it on Toyota, but the driver needs to take responsibility.
John
It's funny but we've sort of come full circle. When we said it was the floor mats lots of folks here were adamant that was a smokescreen and not the real problem.
I thought it was, though I blamed the person intsalling the mats (the Lexus dealer in the case of the police officer, for using the wrong mat).
Now that Toyota was fined the same people are jumping in saying the fines were not big enough.
But hang on a second, if it wasn't the pedals, then why should there be fines at all? For a delay of a fake recall?
Is the pedal problem real, or fake, a smokescreen?
It can't be both.
Sure it can. We know people experienced WOT with the floor mats and stuck defective throttles. I think there is the 3rd electronic problem that Toyota fears the most. We also have the smoking gun with a possible Throttle body controller and sensors going bad. I think it will shape up to be many different issues all as a result of poor testing and QC. Along with an occasional driver error.
Well ..... Toyota pinned it on itself with its multiple TSBs -- well before any of the current ballyhoo -- and finally the public admission of a safety defect (the recall). I did not see anything in those pronouncements about the undoubtedly countless (IYV) instances of car washes removing mats that lead to UA. Oy.
LaHood says federal officials could find more Toyota lapses as they pore over documents
.Deanna Bellandi and Ken Thomas, Associated Press Writers,
On Tuesday April 6, 2010, 4:35 pm EDT
CHICAGO (AP) -- Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood said Tuesday he wouldn't be surprised if a review of documents from Toyota Motor Corp. uncovered additional safety lapses at the Japanese automaker.
LaHood said Toyota was "safety deaf" and said the Japanese automaker made a "huge mistake" by not disclosing safety problems with gas pedals on some of its most popular models sooner. A day earlier, the DOT charged that Toyota failed to alert regulators to its safety problems fast enough and announced it would face a record $16.4 million fine.
Documents obtained from the automaker show that Toyota knew of the problem with the sticking gas pedals in late September but did not issue a recall until late January, LaHood said on Monday. The sticking pedals involved 2.3 million vehicles.
On Tuesday, LaHood said, "This is the first thing that we have found. It may not be the last thing," adding that "it would not surprise me if we discovered other information."
Under federal law, automakers must notify the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration within five days of determining that a safety defect exists and promptly conduct a recall.
Toyota, in a statement Tuesday, said it "has and will continue to practice its philosophy of satisfying consumers with high quality vehicles that are safe and reliable, and responding to consumer feedback with honesty and integrity."
Toyota has recalled more than 6 million vehicles in the U.S. and more than 8 million worldwide because of acceleration problems in multiple models and braking issues in the Prius hybrid.
The government said documents provided by Toyota showed the automaker had known about the sticky pedal defect since at least Sept. 29, 2009, when it issued repair procedures to distributors in 31 European countries and Canada to address complaints of sticking pedals, sudden increases in engine RPM and sudden vehicle acceleration.
The Transportation Department said the documents also show that Toyota knew that owners in the United States had experienced the same problems.
The Japanese automaker was still weighing its options on Tuesday about whether to accept or contest the fine. The proposed fine is the most the government could levy, but further penalties are possible under continuing federal investigations. LaHood declined to speculate on whether Toyota will face additional fines.
Toyota's fine of $16.375 million is the largest ever levied on an automaker and dwarfs the previous record: In 2004, General Motors paid a $1 million fine for responding too slowly on a recall of nearly 600,000 vehicles over windshield wiper failure.
The fine is just one of several problems it continues to face related to its recalls. Toyota has also been named in 138 potential class-action lawsuits over falling vehicle values and nearly 100 personal injury and wrongful death cases in federal courts nationwide.
Still, Toyota's sales have stabilized over the last month thanks in large part to generous incentives. On Tuesday Toyota said it would continue to offer most of its sales incentives in April after the discounts helped drive up sales more than 40 percent last month. The incentives include cheap leases, zero-percent financing and a two-year free maintenance program.
The Transportation Department said the fine it is seeking is specifically tied to the sticking pedal defect and Toyota could face additional penalties if warranted by investigations.
The government has linked 52 deaths crashes allegedly involving sudden acceleration in Toyotas. The recalls have led to congressional hearings, a criminal investigation by federal prosecutors, dozens of lawsuits and an intense review by the Transportation Department.
Toyota has attributed the problem to sticking gas pedals and accelerators that can become jammed in floor mats. Dealers have fixed 1.7 million vehicles under recall so far. The sticky accelerator pedal recall involves the 2007-10 Camry, 2009-10 Corolla, 2009-10 Matrix, 2005-10 Avalon, 2010 Highlander and 2007-10 Tundra.
Consumer groups have suggested electronics could be the culprit, and dozens of Toyota owners who had their cars fixed in the recall have complained of more problems with their vehicles surging forward unexpectedly. Toyota says it has found no evidence of an electrical problem.
Reviews of some recent high-profile crashes in San Diego and suburban New York have failed to find either mechanical or electronic problems. In the New York case, a police investigation found that the driver, not the car, was to blame.
Following the recalls, the Transportation Department demanded in February that Toyota turn over documents detailing when and how it learned of the problems with sticking accelerators and with floor mats trapping gas pedals.
NHTSA said documents provided by Toyota showed the automaker had known about the sticky pedal defect since at least Sept. 29, 2009, when it issued repair procedures to distributors in 31 European countries and Canada to address complaints of sticking pedals, sudden increases in engine RPM and sudden vehicle acceleration.
The government said the documents also show that Toyota knew that owners in the United States had experienced the same problems.
Thomas reported from Washington. AP Auto Writer Dan Strumpf in New York contributed to this report.
Copyright © 2010 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. The information contained in the AP News report may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed without the prior written authority of The Associated Press.
Now that gave me a good laugh. What a joke and a big fat lie. Toyota management does not have an honest bone in all their accumulative bodies.
the ironic thing is, there are a large number of diesel trucks out there putting on huge miles every year.
i remember a guy showing me his truck which he just paid off.
4 years old, 900,000 miles on it.
I think if Toyota pays this $16 million dollar fine that'll be MORE payback for bailouts from and to Government Motors than the old GM will ever pay back themselves.
The Feds needed to tag Toyota for about a $billion to get their attention. Remember they saved a $100 million by sidestepping a recall in 2007.
The government has been intervening in business for a LONG TIME. It is gonna get a lot worse. We own banks, Insurance companies, two auto makers and millions of homes. Toyota could be next.
Well sure, it's less than $8 per car sold by Toyota in the U.S. each year, only $2 per recalled car if you look at it that way.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Precisely. ROFLMAO.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
I can assure you no vehicle purchase has ever kept me up nights. I have no problem helping Toyota's bottom line when they offer the best bang for the buck. If you follow the GM threads you would know I was just as critical of GM with my last GMC PU truck. That bottom line you refer to is somewhat illusive. It could be in one of our 401K accounts. Or it could be in a Swiss bank account hidden from taxes. That applies to the bottom line for ALL auto makers. If I bought a new vehicle today it would be of German origin with a diesel engine.
I would NOT buy a new Toyota with their current DBW design or lack of design.
Very accurate and very succinctly put. I have had the opportunity to drive over 50 new GM cars (all makes) as my personal vehicle over the past 20 years. I had one incident of getting stranded which was quickly resolved by a dealer in Kentucky. He didn't have the part I needed in stock, so he pulled one off a new car in his lot to get me on my way, The only other problems I had were a leaking wheel that caused me to loose tire pressure over a period of two weeks and a cruise control that stopped working. Both of these were immediately corrected (replaced wheel, and fixed faulty electrical connection). Those 50 vehicles represent about 400,000 basically trouble free miles.
But Consumer Reports and Road and Track decided that they liked the touch and feel of the radio knobs on the Camry and from then on, Toyota could do no wrong.
Now this whole secrecy thing from Toyota has me wondering, what is the validity of the data that has them rated with such high quality? Have they simply swept the real data under the carpet???
At least that is finally being acknowledged.
I've agreed with you several times, but here I disagree.
TSB = Technical Service Bulletin.
In other words, they are instructions for service technicians. A manufacturer will issue these to clarify the procedure for installing certain accessories, for instance.
This does not pin the blame on the manufacturer, in fact it addresses a mistake by service techs employed by dealers.
Example: Mazda (true story) issues a TSB to remind techs to use the provided hooks provided when installing rubber mats and not to stack two mats on top of each other.
Mazda did not pin the error on itself, it merely reminded techs to follow the procedures they had already set. In fact the instructions also were included with the rubber mats themselves (I know because I bought a pair for my Miata).
So TSB does not necessary equal a problem.
In the case of the rubber floor mats it became a safety recall. The question with floor mats has to be addressed. Was the TSB an urgent implement, or just one of hundreds of TSBs that get lost in the shuffle unless a customer brings it up. We should have a better picture when and if the Saylor case makes it to court. The Lexus dealer claims it was not his fault. hmmmm, sounds like we could be in for a real show in court.
True, but let's face it, Toyota IS the number one import, and that's been a sore spot for every domestic car lover since the early 1980s. They've had a huge target on them for 3 decades now.
Sure, the fine is a drop in the bucket, and they absolutely deserve it (and more, jail time for the guy who authorized that PowerPoint slide), but don't be naive and think any other for-profit manufacturer is much different.
Remember the Pinto? Ford assigned a monetary value to each death caused by it being rear ended.
GM attacked Dateline NBC and stood by their barely legal side saddle tanks. Being a big domestic brand they found a sympathetic public and got away with murder, pretty much.
Mitsubishi hid recalls for years and MMNA sold cars to phantom buyers to meet quotas, remember that?
These are for-profit businesses and their only concern is profit. If they're being nice it's mainly because they believe that will help them sell more cars and increase those profits.
Green hybrids, flowers, cute puppies? Yup, they help sell cars. Profit.
Toyota is no different than any of those others.
Yes, but remember - you thought that was a smokescreen.
The Lexus dealer is at fault - they used the wrong floor mat! Ignored TSBs and instructions that came with that mat, also.