Toyota on the mend?

tsu670

A vehicle (Sienna) with a known history of sudden unintended acceleration that Toyota refuses to include in its recall list has odds in your favor? My goodness.

ben66

I think there is nothing wrong with wanting to cut costs, so long as its done in the proper way. I remember Warren Buffett's partner Charlie Munger once remarked : I have seen many corporations go bust because of bloat, but I never seen one that go bust because they streamline their costs properly.

I once also remember Carlos Ghosn say something like " If you only ask yr supplier to reduce their price by so and so percent, thats pure bargaining / squeezing, not negotiating. What we want is to negotiate, like for example if I can give you this amount of volume a month, what price reduction can you give me ".

Now thats normal in business. What toyotas doing is demanding their suppliers cut their prices no matter what. And that at least Nissan has so far never been caught covering things up and lying the way toyota did.

Negotiating with suppliers for better terms for more volume, thats very reasonable I believe. Carlos Ghosn got the nickname " Le Cost cutter " because of the quick way he cut costs, but again back in 1999 when Nissan was on the verge of bangkruptcy with a debt of 20 billion dollars (and those big interest payments each month), he has no choice but to move fast. And he did succeed in turning around the company. Thats a feat which many agree is quite an achievement.

And in 1999, I think he did not just cut costs blindly. From what I heard, he realized that the design department was key to the company's future. And in that department, he did not cut costs, instead he gave them more resources. That is the key for Nissan's turnaround then. New designs, new technology, etc. He cut costs in areas where there are bloat, but for the critical things, he did not.

One difference is Carlos Ghosn is an engineer by background. Some of toyota's ceos, especially the now " famed " katsuaki watanabe, are just bean counters. Which do you prefer, an accountant running a car company or an engineer ?

So far I have not heard articles where suppliers got very upset with Nissan like how suppliers got upset with toyota.

Warren Buffett was also famous for being thrifty and cost efficient, but that did not result in his companies running into quality problems. I guess theres a difference between cost efficient, negotiating for better terms in return for this or that, compared to how toyota does it : Just give me 30% reduction in price or ELSE... "

obyone

Watanabe is regarded as having made the key decision to build a manufacturing plant in San Antonio, Texas U.S.A to build full-size pick-up trucks. That decision has led to massive economic losses for Toyota Motor Corporation and its United States Sales group Toyota Motor Sales.

anythngbutgm

Gotta start somewhere tho right? Toyota saw big profit in large trucks (which they have been trying to crack into for a decade) and San Antonio plant provides a basis for future growth in the segment. So they are looking to sell a modest 200k units now, but the plant has the capacity for much more than that. Better to have a plant open for growth rather than see a bump in desirability with no place to build.

I think the positive side of that is Toyota invested in yet, another plant here in the states rather than just importing the Tundra and Sequoia (which are exclusive to the states) from overseas.

Or, I suspect that you are one of those folks who would just rather Toyota just closed up shop and never put up the offering in the first place...

gagrice

Nissan, GM, Toyota recall vehicles; have we become a ‘recall nation’?

Auto recalls, of course, happen all the time, but rarely as widely –and dangerously — as these. And the recalls are changing consumers’ perception of their vehicles, too: no longer are cars perceived as uniformly made by one company. Now, like computers, they’re seen (rightly) as an assembly of many parts.

The difference: a faulty computer is a lot less likely to cause you bodily injury.

As I alluded to in a previous SmartPlanet post, Toyota’s recall highlighted its over-reliance on suppliers and its own de-prioritization of quality control in the pursuit of international growth and increased profits.

But GM and Renault partner Nissan joining the club may indicate that there exists an industry-wide issue when it comes to quality control oversight on a global scale.

Lack of QC

jam1000

Regarding the stated topic of this thread, see Saturday's Wall Street Journal article titled, "Toyota to Idle Plants in Europe." The first para. states that Toyota announced on Friday that it "will suspend production at its factories in France and the U.K. for at least 12 days in coming weeks due to weak regional demand for its vehicles after a series of global safety recalls." The last para. states that it will also "aim[] to finalize the details of its first ever group-wide reorganization of its production facilities by this summer to avoid a steep fall in profitability in the wake of the recalls."

lemko

Katsuaki Watanabe wouldn't be the first accountant who brought down an automotive manufacturer. Remember a [non-permissible content removed] named Roger Smith?

obyone

I think the point of my post was the amount of bad decision making from Mr. Watanabe based on his background in economics. Each decision he made while head of Toyota Japan has caused Toyota to lose money. Why he is still on their board of directors is another question. Japanese society bases a lot on obligations that need to be repaid. In his case I don't see any obligation owed to him by Toyota rather the embarrassment he's caused is basis for seppuku.

As far as whether Toyota built the plant or not is not my concern. I usually don't concern myself with anything that I have no control over. :P

obyone

During the 70's and 80's most CEOs came with an accounting background. That soon changed to marketing with the success of Lee Iacocca.

ben66

But there is a big difference between toyota's case and Renault / Nissan's case. Nissan, like I said, have their share of recalls (even honda have some sizeable recalls too recently, especially their fit model), but the point is, they don't do what toyota does, that is, cover-up, buy time, minimize, to save money over lives, like their internal memo boast, save $100 million. And so on.

Also Nissan's recall case is much smaller compared to toyota, and far less serious, not so life threatening. Nissan and Carlos Ghosn are in fact famous for being very open during the days when they are trying to turn around in 1999. And its not surprising because the way Carlos Ghosn does things is very different compared to the more traditionally closed, secretive Japanese CEOs.

Looking at the scope of recalls, their nature, I believe now Nissan's quality is way better than toyota's and perhaps similar to honda's, considering the size and scope of Nissan's recalls is similar to honda's.

toyota's scope and seriousness of their recalls should put their rankings way below Nissan and honda. Thats why I am deeply suspicious of those jd power / cr rankings that consistently put toyota near the top.

Its like if a kid failed many of his / her tests, and also caught misbehaving often, but yet the school still put that kid's ranking at no.1 or even 3 of the whole class. That defies common sense right ? Somethings wrong man. Maybe the kid often buy gifts for the head teacher ?

Significant is the fact that Nissan is now the top Japanese car manufacturer in China, where unlike Japan, people don't feel drawn to toyota because toyota is still 100% Japanese whereas Nissan is a mix of Japanese and non-Japanese. Moreover Nissan's board of directors appear to have a number of Americans.

The Chinese, as some members here note, are not particularly fond of the Japanese. But the fact that Nissan have become the biggest Japanese car maker there today proves their quality must have been pretty good. Otherwise, the Chinese have no special emotional incentives to buy Japanese cars.

There are American sounding names like Colin Dodge, Andrew Palmer on Nissan's executive committee and board of directors. I don't think these names are French. toyota ? 100% Japanese, honda, also 100% Japanese.

I like companies who say they like diversity and mean it. Nissan's board composition proves its not just small talk :

http://www.nissan-global.com/EN/DOCUMENT/PDF/AR/2009/AR09E_P26_Executive.pdf

tsu670

Do ya think Mazda would be interested in giving their marketing slogan to Toyota?

andres3

I don't think you get it.

Reliability and dependability are measured in the amount of tow trucks you'll need, not the amount of recalls.

It is measured in the amount of money you'll have to spend in 5, 6, 7, 8, or more years to keep it running. The amount of shop visits you'll need.

Since all automakers have recalls, I don't even think recalls figure or factor into the process. I don't hold recalls against the manufacturer unless there is an undue and unusually high amount of recalls for a particular model. Recalls basically cancel themselves out since all manufacturers have them.

The difference is in the amount of rattles, squeaks, and noises one car has at 60,000 miles while your Honda or Audi has none. The way a car still looks like new when it has 65,000 miles while another is ready for the junk yard.

That is how you measure reliability and dependability, not with recalls.

obyone

Would the amount of drivers killed per manufacturer also reflect reliability and dependability or does that say how many stupid drivers bought that particular brand?

lemko

Dead men tell no tales.

andres3

Would the amount of drivers killed per manufacturer also reflect reliability and dependability or does that say how many stupid drivers bought that particular brand?

Amount of drivers killed per brand has nothing to do with reliability or dependability.

However, it does have a lot to do with SAFETY, safety ratings, and safety quality.
Maybe Toyota does attract more mediocre to bad drivers, but this would be hard to prove. If the accident rates are high for Toyota's, I think that would tend to show they do have more bad drivers. If the death rates are higher for Toyota's, that might tend to show they are less safe.

ben66

toyota's slogan should be changed to MOVING FORWARD SUDDENLY.

imidazol97

http://www.daytondailynews.com/news/dayton-news/investigators-will-look-at-accel- - erator-in-lexus-crash-that-injured-3-628408.html?cxtype=ynews_rss

"Montgomery County Sheriff’s Major Dave Hale said Tuesday that since Lexus is made by Toyota, a sticky accelerator “is a possibility.” It could take weeks, though, to determine the cause of the 5:50 p.m. crash, which involved two other cars and sent another motorist to the hospital with minor injuries.

“There is in most cars, especially in high-end cars, what is tantamount to a black box in an airplane,” Hale said. “That has to be downloaded and that can take anywhere from maybe a week to sometimes a month, depending on if we can do it or it has to be sent out.”

If the Sheriffs Department detective is naive, toyota-lexus will take the parts, check them, and find nothing wrong. They'll tell the public the driver hit the brakes 255 times white racing down the 35 mph street and through the BP station which sits on the corner with Main Street.

Notice how the wheel and strut assembly broke loose from the car. Interesting that this is the second time a few weeks I've heard of that. A neighbor had bragged at the scene of an accident in the neighborhood where someone had hit a car pulling out of their driveway. She bragged about how their Lexus had "saved them" when they hit a guard rail; the front wheel had come off the car and that saved them by doing so she said. It was all I could do not to share more information about her toyota. Also I didn't explain that if the wheel were more difficult to fall off, more energy would be absorbed doing so and the impact for the passenger compartment would have been less.

This makes literal the saying, "The wheels are falling off the car."




pictures are from wdtn.com video of the accident scene.

http://www.wdtn.com/dpp/news/car-flips%2C-lands-on-two-other-vehicles

gagrice

There is another aspect to these kinds of accidents. Lexus and other auto makers are selling these luxury sedans to older folks. Going from a 1990 Caddy that will go 0-60 MPH in say 10 seconds to an ES350 that is in the 6 second range can be tough for slower reaction time individuals to control. I don't think high performance luxury sedans should be sold to people that old. Unless they take a driving test in the car to demonstrate they can handle that kind of acceleration. A car that may be perfectly safe for a 50 year old driver could be a death trap for an 80 year old. How is that old person to know, when they are just looking for a nice luxury car? When you buy an ES350 you get the high performance model with no options. With a Buick LaCrosse you can get the high performance if you want it. They also offer a few milder options better suited to the 80+ seniors on the road.

More lack of safety concerns by Toyota/Lexus?

jam1000

I have agreed with many of your previous posts on this thread, and as my previous posts indicate, I have been critical of Toyota for its apparent lack of concern regarding UA. But now you are really stretching, and patronizingly and indiscriminately insulting all senior citizens in the process. (I'm 50.)

gagrice

indiscriminately insulting all senior citizens in the process. (I'm 50.)

I'm 67 and wondering if I would want that kind of acceleration in a new vehicle. I know when I test drove a new BMW X5 diesel I was a little put back by the massive acceleration from about 10 MPH to 70 MPH. I don't have the reaction time I did when I was your age. I know my friends that are 75 -85 do not have the quickness that even I do. I was thinking of that lady 83 years old and her Lexus just takes off with a little accelerator push and next thing she is flipping end over end. Kind of like taking a pilot of a Cessna 150 and putting him into an F18 and saying go for it.

anythngbutgm

March Sales Way Up

While others have a bit prematurely called for a Toyota death-watch, we’ve been following the story of comeback kid Toyota for a while. In Japan, ToMoCo’s production, domestic sales, and exports are solidly up. In the U.S.A., where Toyota had taken the biggest recall-pummeling, Edmunds predicted a 37.1 percent rise over March 2009. Looks like their crystal ball is in fine shape. Expect Toyota to surprise when March numbers come out.

lemko

I see traffic on the two Toyota topics is way down, so this leads me to suspect the issue has been resolved and I didn't hear about it.

gagrice

Toyota is still having UA issues. The media tired of that and are now onto the HC and other issues. Like jobs and climate. A runaway Lexus being tracked by helicopter would bring them back to the forefront. The Faithful are hoping that March will be a big sales month. We should know in a few days.

larsb

Gary says ,"Toyota is still having UA issues."

Ummm, DUH.

They will continue until they figure out a fix and get all the cars recalled and repaired.

No one should be surprised, amazed, shocked, about any new stories.

Time to move on to other issues.

houdini1

I heard on the radio earlier today that Toyota sales were up 35% in March.

All the invective being spewed here did not sway anyone except the 2 or 3 people making all the negative posts. You guys keep it up though, it is quite entertaining.

jam1000

According to the article linked above by anythingbutgm, Toyota sales are expected to be up 30-35% in March, and the industry generally is expected to be up 31%. Combine that with the steep discounts Toyota is offering, and it's very hard to draw any conclusions other than that some people are willing to gamble on the x percent chance that they will experience UA in order to save a few thousand bucks.

There are lies, damned lies, and statistics.

anythngbutgm

Or......... those who predicted (and those who wished for) Toyota to lose large amounts of market share and sales to fall just as badly as some sort of retribution for the Detroit-3 (in a matter of a couple of months as opposed to the 3 decades it took the D-3) may have gotten their hopes up and are in for a very big disappointment... Predictions of Toyo falling back to 5th or 6th place in sales and losing hundreds of thousands of customers were mentioned plenty of times.

No lies, just sharing news I read at other sources, much like many others here on the forums. If I was a fan of Toyota I would be happy as well.

Where is our buddy revit? :P

houdini1

Looks like the 35% was premature...it is now up 40% !!

houdini1

Where is our buddy revit?

Whoever was paying him obviously realized that all he was doing was posting old news stories and fired him !!

jam1000

Yes, that is certainly a possibility as well. The question -- to which I don't know the answer -- is to what extent Toyota's purchase of market share through discounts has cut into profitability or is in effect a loss leader.

jam1000

I guess they need more UA incidents and recalls. They seem to be good for business.

graphicguy

I didn't doubt that sales for Toyotas would be up after all of the rebates, incentives, etc.

Problem is, we still don't know the cause of Toyota's multitudes of problems.

Plus, even if you don't have a Toyota or Lexus that was part of the recall, the much lower selling prices are going to affect the resale value down the road.

Toyota solved one problem.....getting people in their stores with the rebates/incentives. They created another problems in the fact that they can't raise prices without losing the audience they're trying to capture somewhere down the road unless they continue (or increase) those incentives and rebates.

Their problems still persist, regardless of the price they put on them.

anythngbutgm

Oh I don't doubt that incentives greatly reduced the profit margins for the month of March and will no doubt continue for the next month or so, but at the same time Toyota also does very well with inventory control so while they are essentially "selling the deal", they are also moving inventory along so their is minimal long term effect (unsold and taking up space, older models holding up future model years, etc.)

Also, Toyota has more money than god and it appears they still have a solid reputation, or one in which they can bounce back from even the highest of profile problems, so the effects are short term.

And, it will also get people who were on the fence about owning a Toyota (because the prices were higher than the competition) into the dealers who had never been owners before and just might end up appreciating the same quality and attributes so many other Toyota owners have been heralding all these years. Not myself tho, at least until something interesting comes along (4runner is close but I have mileage concerns)

anythngbutgm

Nah, the incentives aren't really that crazy actually.

Heck, 2000 bucks back and 0% on a loaded Tundra or Sequoia is about the most agressive ones they have out there as far as my area is concerned.

By contrast, there is a Chevy dealer unloading Silverados for 10 grand off the sticker... so if anyone is looking? :confuse:

explorerx4

i will be interested to see what the sales mix was between models.

carbuff1171

It is good to see that the U.S. government has such a surplus of our tax dollars that they can afford to help financially struggling Toyota/Lexus by hiring NASA to help find the cause of their problem.

http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/nasa-scientists-test-toyota-electronics/story?id=1- 0241757

mnf

Stuck inside his Camry the rumor is that a door lock recall will be coming we should be seeing first hand pictures from inside his car.

lemko

Hey, Rev. Jim Jones was giving away free Kool-Aid! I guess they'd have gone for that deal too.

lemko

Shoot, why don't they have NASA help some of our own industries first?

gagrice

The NHTSA administration is in over their heads. They are a bunch of politicians and auto forensics is too challenging for them. So they had to ask another agency for help. We will probably get another agency Called the DBW research group, to find all the problems Toyota has in their poorly designed systems.

skeezix

Speaking of "poorly designed systems", I've always wondered why at least 50% of the Toyotas I see on the road have exhaust pipes that are hanging way down low under the car. I see this all the time yet I never hear any owner complain and CR never faults Toyota for exhaust problems. Sometimes, when one of these low hangers hits a dip in the road too hard, I see sparks a flying. Has anyone else noticed this? If I had a car with this issue, any make, any model, it would go straight to the shop for repair.

doggrandma

... or

"Nothing Can Stop Us Now!"

andres3

With a Buick LaCrosse you can get the high performance if you want it. They also offer a few milder options better suited to the 80+ seniors on the road.

More lack of safety concerns by Toyota/Lexus?

So now you blame Toyota for making better engines than Buick? How about the old person take responsiblity for his diminished driving skills and not drive at all? Or how about they take action and reflash the ECU to limit revs to under 3,500? Essentially create an artificial 3,500 red line?

ateixeira

Yes I have noticed the low hanging exhausts on some models, strange but I've never once heard a Toyota owner complain about that. Not sure why.

ateixeira

Combine that with the steep discounts Toyota is offering...

There are lies, damned lies, and statistics.

What I find interesting is you make no mention whatsoever of the poaching by competitors the month before.

Sure Toyota is offering incentives, but GM and Ford acted first.

ateixeira

Translated for me as saying: "Prius Driver Charged with making false accusations/wasting police time/fake emergency calls"

http://www.aftenposten.no/nyheter/iriks/article3585600.ece

NHTSA should fine people who make bogus claims to reclaim funds they spent investigating hoaxes. They can even pay for NASA's help.

andres3

I'd call that a successful month.

ateixeira

Prius driver charged with false distress call

The 50-year-old driver from Søgne who said that his Toyota Prius ran amok is charged with giving false nødmelding.AVOLE DAY Kvamme / FVN.NO
KRISTIANSAND: - The discoveries made through technical studies and other information has reasonable grounds to suspect that the driver called in a fake emergency call to the police, which resulted in intervention by the police, said police and a police officer Kjetil Nygård at Lillesand sheriff's office to fvn . com.

The charges were issued by police attorney Eric Ramsland at Police College on Friday afternoon. Police now want to call 50-year-old for questioning as soon as possible.

- We need to clarify the health of his. He came to the hospital after another traffic accident Friday, "said Nygaard.

- The case has received enormous attention. Now we want a good opportunity to conduct an open investigation. He is suspected of having received notice from a serious accident that perhaps were not so serious. The case has received enormous attention. We will reveal the actual course of events, and ensure an investigation that give us an objective approach, and secure him the rights he should have, "says Nygård.

- Are the police that he drove into the barrier on purpose and with reason other than to stop the car?

- I do not wish to speculate on. We would get all information in the case, through additional technical studies and information from the accused, answer Nygård, according fvn.no.

Read also:

Police investigating the Prius case

- Gas Pedal-hang on Toyota in Norway

Toyota will buy the Prius that ran amok

Up to 3 months
The charges prosecutors refer to Penal Code section 349:

"With fines or imprisonment for up to 3 months Any person who by undue cry for help, the abuse of distress signal or the like, intentionally or negligently causes terror among a larger number of people, along shoal treatment or intervention by the police, paramedics, doctors or the armed force, or that contribute hereto. "

Police say 50-year-old is familiar with the indictment.

This has happened:
At 12.26 on Thursday 11 March called 50-year-old Police College and explained that he could not stop the car on the highway to Lillesand.

The car had run amok, and held up to 176 kmh.

Police called Toyota to get advice. Before they had time to call him up again, rang the man himself. He explained that he had managed to stop the car by running into the barrier.

In the weeks before the incident mentioned media wide brake problems with some Toyota models, as Toyota Norway called in the 23,000 cars.

4. and 5 March advanced as 50-year-old picture and ad in Søgne and Songdalen Budstikke, and would have 235,000 dollars for the 2009 model, with specification of the brake failure did not apply his model.

Wednesday 10 March wrote the Norwegian online newspapers how the American James Sikes' Toyota Prius to have run amok on the highway in California on Monday 8 March. He called emergency services, and received help to stop.

Read more domestic cases from Aftenposten here

lemko

...about Priuses? Did the drivers realize they hate the car and are looking for a way out or are they looking for a big payday courtesy of Toyota. They haven't been injured, so I can't see much of a settlement coming from Toyota, so the Prius must be a miserable car to drive.

ateixeira

Nice spin!

People wanna cash in.

If I hit anything with my Sienna - bingo - UA! I don't have to pay for the damage and may even win some money!

It's like not having to pay the collision deductible.