Toyota on the mend?

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Comments

  • ingvaringvar Member Posts: 205
    German cars very addictive:-)
  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
    Gangsterism? Does Ben drive an Escalade? :surprise:
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    edited March 2010
    I think we should all be alarmed NHTSA is not publicly releasing detrimental information about auto manufacturers

    Finally something we actually all might agree on.

    Yes, indeed, NHTSA makes recalls public but TSBs are not, and this has been standard industry practice for decades.

    That needs to change.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    As I mentioned before, if you're pulled over you get very nervous. If you know you have something to hide, even more so. Sikes had been going 90+ for how long?

    Pure adrenaline.

    If his heart rate were anything but elevated, he'd be dead.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    edited March 2010
    Gary: ever been to a track day?

    The joke is that if you take your street car to the track, for a one-day event such as Friday At The Track (FATT), that you drive home with:

    10,000 miles of brake dust! :D

    ba-dum-PAH!

    Thank you, try the veal, don't forget to tip your waiters and waitresses.

    Point is, do you really think he could go 110,000 miles at 90mph with his foot on and off the brakes and not cause undue wear on the pads?

    Heck no.

    This was like 40 track days back-to-back-to-back.

    Of course the brakes overheated.

    Of course the pads wore down.

    Your argument isn't even consistent. If the brakes should last 110,000 miles, how did the pads all but disappear after just a few miles in one day?

    These were extreme circumstances. If you're driving and not braking, there is zero wear.

    If you're driving very fast and cycle the brakes off and on 250+ times, there is plenty of wear.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    that age old question; are people basically good or bad?
    i think good, although some others are on the other side of the fence.


    Thank you, this one post can sum it all up, in fact.

    Is Sikes good or bad?

    Would you trust him? Would you like him? Is he a nice guy?

    Think about it.
  • sharonklsharonkl Member Posts: 660
    You must have not read what I was posting. And you are absolutely wrong, a basic medical opinion/interpretation can be formed from documented information in the CHP report. .

    Sikes was evaluated in ambulance by Paramedics, EMT. My assumption is he was put on a cardiac monitor by crew, readouts are relayed to supervising ER physician. This is standard California EMS protocol for patient with chest pressure symptoms & very high blood pressure w known existing cardiac history. Patients symptoms & findings were reported by CHP & returned to acceptable range.

    Ambulance dispatch was appropriate. Patient hx & symptoms warranted an ambulance.

    Are you saying ambulance was not apropriate??? Are you saying Sikes deserved no medical care because his symptoms were a hoax??
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    You are misunderstanding us both.

    We are disputing the CAUSE of his elevated blood pressure.

    Not whether it was high or not. It was high.

    We're saying it was caused by:

    * 90+ mph speeding
    * lying to a cop
    * perpetrating a hoax to promote your porn web site

    That is all.
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,356
    Regular medical doctors misdiagnose cases on a daily basis, with the patient right in front of them. I could be wrong but I don't think that your impressive list of credentials include being an MD, but you are somehow able to make a remote diagnosis, with no chance of error, from a police report.

    Is it possible you could be mistaken?

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    From sciencenetlink:

    Who’s Lying?

    When a person lies, his or her body may undergo physical changes such as:

    increased heartbeat, stuttering
    increased breathing, sweating
    higher vocal pitch, irregular face/body movements

    Other indicators that could indicate that someone is lying include:

    avoiding eye contact, fidgeting arms, hands, and fingers
    reduced blinking, mouth/face touching
    head scratching


    Pretty much describes Sikes.

    increased heartbeat? Check

    increased breathing? Check

    Avoid eye contact, let's see....

    image

    Check, and ...

    image

    Definitely, check.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,700
    >avoiding eye contact,

    Some people look down when speaking. It's a recall technique for some. There are other indicators of what's going on to determine if they are lying to use your term.

    Most people would not look directly into a video camera because it's an alien concept to them to be talking to a camera.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    The photos were added for a touch of humor, that's just a snap shot anyway.

    The point was that an elevated heart rate is a symptom of lying, consistent with the medical report.
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    Mine is a 2007, last of Gen 1 Sequoias.

    Gary, just in case you disappear one day in a blast of sudden acceleration, we want you to know that we enjoyed having you around here.... :shades:
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    :D

    Gary? GARY? ;)
  • sharonklsharonkl Member Posts: 660
    I have already addressed the very high blood pressure CHP documented in my prior post. .

    A medical hoaxer/hoaxer does not display the EXTREME physiological response documented. And as explained he was already on therapuetic blood presure medication that would have factored in higher blood pressure in stress situations. A national hypertension protocol exists. CHP documeted BP very high. USBP took BP immediately after incident while Sikes still sitting in car. CHP documented Paramedic/EMT found BP very high. The Paramedic/EMT documentation report was not released that could further clarify - he was probably put on cardiac monitor relayed to ER physician. Since Mr. Sikes released after awhile when BP/other vital signs returned to acceptable level & denied chest pressure & stated he felt ok- cardiac rhythm was most likely normal.

    I don't think I'd probably like Mr.Sikes very much if his dicey history is all true.

    I don't know what final decision will be regarding the incident.

    Hope you are not saying he didn't deserve ambulance dispatch and treatment. I don't think you do, but just asking.
  • avucarguyavucarguy Member Posts: 56
    With a positive cardiac Hx and previous cardiac surgery, and truly elevated BP and complaints of chest pain. The EMT would have taken Sikes to the ED for further eval including cardiac enzymes and an EKG at a minimum. And if Sikes truly have cardiac symtoms and is admitted, the attending would order a 2D echo(echo cardiogram) and order a cardiology consult. A portable cardiac monitor only tell you so much, and you must be trained to read a cardiac monitor. Lying, speeding while attempting a hoax would definitely raise your BP and HR. Anyone can claim they have chest pain, including drug addicts going to the hospital lying so they can get IV Dilaudid to get their kick. I see this very often being an RN.
  • sharonklsharonkl Member Posts: 660
    But my son is MD and he agrees!!! I am an RN CDE. My husband was CEO of SF ambulance company, California State EMS Commissioner & helped establish many of California's present EMS laws. He designed and developed first successful neonatal tansport unit in the United States. He helped establish, taught at SF community college. Has an award in his name awarded posthumously by SF Depeartment of Public Health for his outstanding lifetime EMS work in SF and at state level.

    I beg your pardon. I was not diagnosing. It appears you are not familiar what is a diagnosis and what is not a diagnosis. Please read what I wrote.

    Would you prefer Mr. Sikes was not treated too?? Are you saying he didn't deserve ambulance dispatch & treatment???

    .
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I beg your pardon.

    I am getting the impression you are trying to convince the faithful that someone claiming UA is not a hoaxter. Several posters here were convinced that the Sikes runaway Prius was a hoax before any of the sinister details in the Toyota smear campaign came to light. Any detail that may shed light on the case is irrelevant when you do not believe that a Toyota is capable of UA. And those that believe that on some rare occasion that a Toyota may possibly have an electronic issue that causes Unintended acceleration, only an idiot would not be able to instantly bring the car under control.

    You and I both know that Toyota will Never admit there is any chance of an electronic failure causing UA. They would rather spend $millions smearing any consumer that has a decent case, than the $Billions it would cost to retro-fit every one of their flaky vehicles electronic control modules.

    There are those posting on this thread that are true believers in the infallibility of Toyota. There are those that would like to know the truth. And there are those that truly hate Toyota for making GM look bad. You and I are in the middle group.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Gary here's one reason it was a hoax:

    None of the other UA cases we know about ended with the car just finally "not accelerating" any longer. They all ended with the car crashing into something
    to stop it. The brakes apparently did not stop the car.

    Sikes repeatedly says he stood on the brakes but couldn't even slow the vehicle. Yet Car and Driver had recently tested three cars at full throttle at 100 mph and brought them all to a full stop, including a 540-horsepower Mustang. The 2008 Prius only has 110 anemic ponies under the hood. (After my story broke, a leaked congressional memo revealed that tests on Sikes' car showed that, as they were designed to do, when the brakes on Sikes' car were applied, the engine automatically slowed.)

    Sikes "finally" stopped his car. His UA ended differently than ALL the other ones we know about.

    Why is that, one must ask?

    Hoax questions

    Forbes column on the hoax
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,700
    >You and I both know that Toyota will Never admit there is any chance of an electronic failure causing UA. They would rather spend $millions smearing any consumer that has a decent case, than the $Billions it would cost to retro-fit every one of their flaky vehicles electronic control modules.

    What is obvious is that many want to argue over Sike's status rather than talk about toyota-lexus-scion's faulty electronics or parts thereof.

    It was like the burned oil, sludge, fiasco, where the drivers were blamed by most of the proponents. People who pointed out that sludge had really happened due to some characteristics in the design of the motors were considered outcasts. The faithful tried to close discussions on other than Edmunds just to quash the talk about their favored auto.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,700
    I'm waiting for someone to leak the negatives about the Saylors involved in the death car in San Diego. Wasn't that the same freeway? Surely there were some negatives. Or is it that there is too much positive PR and publishing negative info like they've done to Sikes would cause a reaction. Or is it that Exponent or others involved weren't yet active when the Saylor runaway was big news, and now suits are in place.

    I'm waiting for the negative on the Apple guy, whatever his name is.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I think Toyota feels home free on the Saylor case. The Dealer will be hung out to dry on that one. Even though it is a P*** poor throttle design. They are probably feeling safe on the Sikes UA because he has a dicey background. So people don't feel sorry for a smut peddler or a real estate agent. Sike's smartest move was calling 911. Getting the CHP involved gives him enough credibility that all their attempts at smearing would backfire in a court of law. $100,000 and Sikes goes away. The Woz pointing out the crummy cruise control in the 2010 Prius will more than likely get resolved, even though Toyota claims that is the way they designed it to work.

    Don't be surprised if El Cajon Lexus becomes Saylor Lexus. Bob Baker the owner will pay dearly. As I doubt he has a big enough liability policy to cover the settlement. I don't think Lexus will allow him to drag it out in court. Every bit of evidence blasted on the 6 PM news is not what Toyota wants right now. If people felt bad for Smith the pictures of that wrecked ES350 are a lot more heart wrenching. The 911 call being played over and over. Toyota will settle for $millions on that one.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,700
    The only salvation for Mrs. Smith was that her entry was onto an expressway that is high speed in Eastern Tennessee. It's 3 or 4 lanes, I can't recall which. I suspect she was going east from the Route 66 entry, near Sevierville home of Dolly Parton. Therefore she didn't have slow traffic to block her; people are used to high speed drivers and move out of the way in the left lanes to let them through at 80 and 85. The speed limit is 70. Otherwise she might be going to jail for ramming into the rear of someone when it wasn't her fault: it was the car's fault.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    The EMT would have taken Sikes to the ED

    You can't force someone in that situation to go to the ER.

    Let's give it a rest shall we, and get back to Toyota.

    thanks.
  • sharonklsharonkl Member Posts: 660
    You are the first one who responded to this NHTSA legal counsel interpretation of TREAD Law that was passed to make information public knowledge.

    The loose wording of Appendix C creates multiple possibilities for manufacturers legal pressure to keep any information they request confidential. Dealership submit consumer complaint voluntarily but can be kept confidential - won't appear in NHTSA data base. Knew none were getting on data base. Also no checks/audit are made to make sure dealerships turn in all of the consumer complaints, accidents, etc. Etc. Etc.

    Yes, it does need to change. Seems to be a big huge problem for all of us consumers.
  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
    Maybe it was the same "act of god" that got the car to stop as she claimed...
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Maybe they should change this topic to "Assassinate Sikes' Character."
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    I like to put some of these "faithful" is a car hurtling down the interstate at 90 mph with no brakes and the inability to shift into neutral ans see if their heart rates are not elevated.
  • 210delray210delray Member Posts: 4,721
    Your fellow Pennsylvanian friend brags about driving near such speeds on PA interstates and regularly lambastes the 65 mph speed limit, so I'd hardly consider it "hurtling." But as Steve said, let's get back to the topic at hand.
  • 210delray210delray Member Posts: 4,721
    edited March 2010
    From Karl Brauer

    ...Let's all remember that at the end of the day it's still completely possible (and I'm of the position quite likely) these cases of unintended acceleration involve human error. The error may be getting some help from things like pedal placement or floor mats or control design (I remain skeptical of push-button start/stop controls), but if someone doesn't fully familiarize themselves with the basic controls of a vehicle before they drive off in it I still categorize any subsequent control misapplications as human-error related...

    ...There's a fifth point I have to make, and this is the silver lining in an otherwise media-induced storm cloud: The majority of people out there are seeing through the news/political/trial lawyer circus act. When Toyota announced aggressive incentives a few weeks ago vehicle sales spiked. So for every Rhonda Smith and Jim Sikes and Tony Rackaukus claiming Toyota is the Spawn of Satan there are thousands of people rushing out to take advantage of incredible deals on Toyota cars; cars with a long history of high quality, strong resale value and -- most importantly -- no proven life-threatening defects or safety issues.

    And if you think I'm simply out to defend Toyota at all costs, you're wrong. I'm out to defend logic, critical analysis and rational responses to a serious situation. It just happens that, in this case, they are largely the same thing.
  • 210delray210delray Member Posts: 4,721
    edited March 2010
    And Bill Visnic in Michelle Krebs' Auto Observer:

    The tide of public perception may be turning in favor of Toyota Motor Sales USA after investigation of a highly publicized crash of a Prius hybrid electric vehicle in Harrison, New York, last week demonstrated the driver -- who claimed the car accelerated unintentionally -- was flooring the accelerator rather than the brake pedal.

    The case follows that of Prius driver James Sikes earlier this month in which Sikes claimed his Prius took him on a minutes-long, 90-mph-plus unintentionally accelerated ride on a San Diego freeway. As with the latest New York report of unintended acceleration, investigation by Toyota and the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) refuted Sikes' claim that prolonged heavy application of the brake pedal would not slow his car.

    Investigators determined Sikes had not applied the brakes in a prolonged fashion on his allegedly runaway Prius -- instead, he repeatedly applied and released the brakes some 250 times during the incident.

    Now, as quickly as doubt surged about the safety of Toyota's electronically controlled throttles or the software that governs the engine-management computer that controls them, it appears Toyota could be just as swiftly validated in its steadfast position there has been nothing wrong with the mechanism of the throttles or the electronics and software that control them...


    ...Toyota, in fact, seems to be growing increasingly confident in espousing its position that causes of these accidents and reports could be manifest -- but are not caused by mysterious faults of equipment or software. In a statement about the New York Prius crash, Toyota expressed sympathy for all involved in accidents involving Toyota vehicles, but also offered a number of probable causes, all of which involve driver mistakes or confusion.

    "As always, it is important to remember that many of the complaints in the NHTSA database, for any manufacturer, lack sufficient detail that could help identify the cause of an accident or, in some cases, even the specific vehicle involved," Toyota said in a statement.

    "Furthermore, instances of unintended acceleration can be caused by many factors and they are not all sudden or sustained," the statement continued. "The category is very broad, affects all major automakers, and can include issues involving pedal entrapment, pedal misapplication, transmission surges and driver reaction to normal engine speed control variations when cruise control or air-conditioning systems are in use."
  • 210delray210delray Member Posts: 4,721
    Just wanted to comment on part of Toyota's quote:

    "As always, it is important to remember that many of the complaints in the NHTSA database, for any manufacturer, lack sufficient detail that could help identify the cause of an accident or, in some cases, even the specific vehicle involved," Toyota said in a statement.

    I had pointed this out long before that you don't have to provide a VIN, name, address, or e-mail or phone contact to post a complaint on the NHTSA website. Not much that NHTSA or the manufacturer can do to follow up on such complaints then.
  • obyoneobyone Member Posts: 7,841
    You have repeatedly stated that your Camrys aren't affected by this latest series of SUA/UA. Toyota used DBW since 2002. So how does that leave you unaffected as there was a substantial increase of SUA/UA incidents reported in 2002 vs. 2001 and earlier?
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,356
    Maybe because he knows how to drive and takes personal responsibility?

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • grayhair1grayhair1 Member Posts: 4
    edited March 2010
    At last some sanity instead of all the conspiracy theorists!!!
  • 210delray210delray Member Posts: 4,721
    edited March 2010
    Thank you. And I've practiced jamming the gas and brake at the same time, with and without shifting to neutral -- car stops easily, just as in Edmunds' tests. Plus there had been never even been a detectable "surge" in either of my Camrys in over 116,000 combined miles of driving. There are much more important things to worry about while driving.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Hope you are not saying he didn't deserve ambulance dispatch and treatment

    Not at all, better safe than sorry.

    If later on he ever admits this was a hoax, he should have to reimburse his insurance company for the ambulance costs, though.

    We'll agree to disagree on the medical symptoms. I can't think of a more stressful situation than knowingly lying to a cop.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,700
    >Hope you are not saying he didn't deserve ambulance dispatch and treatment
    >Not at all, better safe than sorry.
    >If later on he ever admits this was a hoax, he should have to reimburse his insurance company for the ambulance costs, though.

    And when toyota-lexus ever is found guilty for their hoax since 2002, they should have to pay every owner a penalty along with fixing their cars, right! :P

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Several posters here were convinced that the Sikes runaway Prius was a hoax before any of the sinister details in the Toyota smear campaign came to light

    Really?

    Let's see what conclusions people and the media jumped to:

    Start on March 8:

    On the very day Toyota announced their BS, another Toyota runaway and 911 call

    WOW! Thanks to DVR, I don't watch live TV ..... so early this morning I turn on last night's CBS news with Katie Couric and the lead story is the runaway Prius in San Diego.

    The California highway patrol had to stop it by getting in front of it. What will the morons at Toyota blame this one on? Like is the guy Mark Saylor's twin brother also living in San Diego?

    Toyota better gets its electronic act together ....... when your vehicle "interventions" become as famous as the "PIT" manueaver and part of the CHP training manual ...... you know you have a problem.

    officers helped bring to a stop a runaway Toyota Prius exhibiting unintended acceleration Monday afternoon

    Go back to cable ... but how much will it cost for 8.+ million cars

    In fact things keep looking worse for [Toyota]

    And it goes on and on and on

    Toyota owners have been living in a fool's paradise until now

    OK, so we all know Toyota has really bungled this

    Toyoda should just step down and let somebody else take over


    ***

    ALL of those were before March 10. Jalopnik casts doubt on March 11.

    So the conclusion most people jumped to was that Toyota was guilty.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    The throttle was unstuck at the end because it was never stuck in the first place.

    Thanks for the links. I'm sure the same people that jumped to conclusions (Toyota=guilty) will not read those links.

    I'm glad Forbes agrees: "almost none of this was true" regarding early media reports that made it look like UA.

    This sums it up best:

    The lack of skepticism from the beginning was stunning
  • graphicguygraphicguy Member Posts: 14,144
    edited March 2010
    Not to come down on Karl's writing here at Edmunds, as I like it, for the most part.

    However, one thing to keep in mind, whether it's Edmunds, Motor Trend, or any other car publication or blog, Toyota spends a lot of money advertising with them (just look at the ads for Toyota here at Edmunds).

    Doing anything but defending them, is like biting the hand that feeds you. Not likely to hear any criticism from any of these sources. Actually, I think that says volumes about the editorial content I've read from a lot of these sources. I may be censured, or even banned from here.

    But, Edmunds has more than just a slight vested interest in keeping Toyota paying for advertising on this site.
    2024 Kia EV6 GT-Line AWD Long Range
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    The NHTSA complaint form requires a name and address. If you spoof that, the investigators won't be too inclined to spend a lot of time on the complaint if they can't reach you. If the complaint sounds like a safety issue, with a real name they could contact you for follow-up info.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    NHTSA and the congressional staffers that oversaw the investigation do not accept advertisting from Toyota, yet people here already accused them of bias and being in Toyota's pocket.

    And again, read larsb's links, they anti-Toyota media bias was obvious:

    How Media Took Us For A Ride In A Prius:

    http://www.investors.com/NewsAndAnalysis/Article.aspx?id=528174

    Toyota Hybrid Horror Hoax

    http://www.forbes.com/2010/03/12/toyota-autos-hoax-media-opinions-contributors-m- ichael-fumento_print.html
  • 210delray210delray Member Posts: 4,721
    edited March 2010
    That's what I really should have said -- you can spoof a name and address to NHTSA, and with no VIN, the car can't be tracked at all.

    I received a follow-up call from NHTSA when I complained about my former Volvo 240 when the throttle "blipped" seemingly without my intervention. Later I realized my boot (with a wider sole) had caught both the brake and accelerator pedal when I was stopping for a red light. :blush:
  • 210delray210delray Member Posts: 4,721
    edited March 2010
    However, one thing to keep in mind, whether it's Edmunds, Motor Trend, or any other car publication or blog, Toyota spends a lot of money advertising with them (just look at the ads for Toyota here at Edmunds).

    Point taken, but Edmunds has stated that they maintain a "firewall" of sorts between the top editorial staff and the marketing department, the latter of which handles advertisers. Take it for what it's worth though.

    Motor Trend ("every car is great, except last year's model") has been worthless for decades.

    On the other hand the one publication that doesn't take advertisements, Consumer Reports, is always lambasted for alleged favorable bias toward Toyota, never mind that CR suspended its recommendations for the Toyota cars affected by the sticky pedal recall.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Ah, it's nice to know that warm bodies actually read and follow up on the complaints.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    The article is not in English, but a friend is translating for me.

    The guy claimed he hit the siderail at 176kph, but the police concluded he was actually going about 10kph. :D

    Hoax number 3 possibly?

    No jumping to conclusions, anyone got a link in English? I asked him to send me the link so I can use Babelfish.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,700
    edited March 2010
    http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=no&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.aften- - - posten.no%2Fnyheter%2Firiks%2Farticle3581180.ece

    See if his does it.

    Obviously another fraud. Someone trying to lie about toyota-lexus-scion. :P

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • 210delray210delray Member Posts: 4,721
    Well, the photo of the car would hardly indicate a crash at 176 km/h (109 mph)! All I see are pigeon-toed front wheels.

    Lots of snow still on the ground there.
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