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People have been mistaking one pedal for the other since I started driving (legally anyway) on my 16th birthday in 1966.
This entire panic over a few accidents goes to show why the U.S. is the world leader in anti-anxiety medication prescriptions. Too many worryworts just waiting and watching for the sky to fall. That's no way to live.
John
Total breakdown by manufacturer
link title
link title
Ford’s sales rose 22 percent, boosted by strong demand for the F-Series pickup and new Ford Mustang. Sales to rental, government and commercial fleets rose 32 percent.
Fleet sales spiked to 38 percent of GM’s sales. Those sales can hurt resale values and brand image, but the company said it expects to end the year with 25 percent of its sales to fleets.
That's very good. Tell that to the state patrol officer's family and the others who have died in the few accidents. I'm sure they'll feel much better after you assure them there is nothing wrong.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Mercedes Benz-18,548
BMW-17,859
Buick-12,582
Cadillac-12,328
Acura-11,766
Audi-9,205
Infiniti-8,091
Lincoln-7,755
Volvo-4,569
Porsche-1,873
Waiting now for xlu to say something like "yeah but they failed to sell triple what Lincoln did" or some such comment.
Toyota stumbled
That's very good. Tell that to the state patrol officer's family and the others who have died in the few accidents. I'm sure they'll feel much better after you assure them there is nothing wrong.
It seems that those who know little about the actual facts of a situation are the ones crowing the loudest about what they "think" happened.
Try doing a little reading on the subject... You might actually learn something.
http://autos.aol.com/article/toyota-tragedy-saylor-family/
From the link...
When the San Diego County Sheriff's Department Report No. 09056454.1 became public information last week, we learned that the very same car that Mark Saylor drove on August 28 had been reported as having unintended acceleration problems.
Earlier in the week the Saylor family died, Frank Bernard and his wife picked up the very same loaner vehicle -- a white Lexus ES350 with California dealer plate 6DRT323. In a police report, Bernard told the San Diego Sheriffs that that as he was merging onto a freeway, he saw a truck nearby and accelerated briskly to get in front of it. Once in front of the truck, he let his foot off the accelerator. The vehicle "kept accelerating on its own, to about 80-85 MPH."
Bernard said he stepped on the brakes and tried to lift up on the accelerator with his right foot. He got over to the shoulder, was able to slow the car to 50-60 MPH, but was unable to stop the car's ignition (the Lexus has a push-button start system that requires a three-second hold to turn off the car). Trying everything he could, he eventually placed the car into neutral. The engine "made a very loud, whining, racing sound" but the car stopped.
He was safe.
Bernard noticed the floor mat had become stuck under the accelerator pedal. After he cleared the mat, he drove normally, although likely a little shaken.
When Bernard returned the vehicle to Bob Baker Toyota/Lexus on the evening of August 25, he reported the problems to the receptionist.
"I think the mat caused it," he told the receptionist upon handing her the keys. "You need to tell someone."
The message never got to the right person.
Three days later, Mark Saylor picked up the same Lexus ES350 with the same all-weather floor mat installed. Hours later, he and his family were dead.
That's old news. It still goes to show that a manufacturer needs to idiot proof their cars. Neither driver knew how to turn the vehicle off with that push button start.
Lexus/Toyota needed brake override plain and simple.
It also shows how at least one driver didn't know how to simply shift the car transmission to "neutral".
I don't disagree with the brake over-ride feature, but I am confident that inexperienced and/or untrained and/or incompetent and/or inattentive drivers will always find a way to kill themselves (as well as others), regardless however many safeguards are put into place.
>Try doing a little reading on the subject... You might actually learn something.
Rather than being personally disrespectful of others, check the rules for the forum, you might try following your own suggestions. :P
Unless you were in the car with them, Godlike, you have no idea if the supposed floormat ploy toyota-lexus thew out as the sole cause of unintended accelerations was an actual reason or if the car was out of control like the one driven into the California dealership by the person who drove the racing car by shift into and out of gear.
We're supposed to think a highway patrolman and another adult male in the passenger seat wouldn't check the floor for the pedal to see if it were entrapped?
Really? :P
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Your house is flammable too, but you sleep in it every night.
Cars without Li-Ion batteries burn up all the time.
>Cars without Li-Ion batteries burn up all the time.
Like this toyota?
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Wrong - both Mitsubishi and Jaguar/Land Rover also had single digit increases in sales.
Suzuki and BMW and Porsche were all in the negative column, too.
Lexus sales are important because those models are the most profitable.
By the way - the Lexus LF-A sold out already, and it's not even out yet.
First time I've read that - but I though all along that it was the mis-matched rubber mat in the Saylor car that caused this problem.
That puts the blame on the dealer employee who installed the wrong mat, which is also what I've been saying all along.
The dealer failed again by not replacing the mat (stupid, stupid mistake). Unbelievable.
busiris wrote:
a manufacturer needs to idiot proof their cars
Agreed, but to what extent is Toyota liable for the mistakes made by these "idiots"? Dealerships are independently owned and operated, I think the blame in this case should fall on the dealership/mechanic.
and...
Lexus/Toyota needed brake override plain and simple
They've done this already, and the feds will mandate this on other cars as well.
The case in the Cali dealership where the customer drove in with the throttle pinned shows UA is not entirely made up, but in Bernard's loaner Lexus it's pretty clear what happened:
Bernard noticed the floor mat had become stuck under the accelerator pedal. After he cleared the mat, he drove normally
No he's not Godlike but we have an eyewitness.
Saylor drove that exact same car, still with a mismatched rubber mat, people think it could not be caused by the same thing?
SAME CAR, folks. What reason is there to doubt what Bernard said?
>SAME CAR, folks. What reason is there to doubt what Bernard said?
Interesting attempt to twist the logic. However, your logic says that Saylor (et al) would also have noticed the encumbrance of the pedal by the floor mat and removed it and would be with us today. You are trying selectively to apply parallelism to the events, and parallelism is not mandated. But if one applies it to certain parts, then it must be applied to ALL parts.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Same applies to Saylor's case.
Bernard remained calm and survived.
I do agree the dealership has the bulk of the responsibility to install the correct accessories. Toyota has admitted by their recall that the pedal is poorly designed. Making a sticking throttle too common an occurrence. It will be up to the court and jury to decide what percentage of the blame is Toyota's and the dealer's.
Wow, that feels strange. Let's not do that too often. LOL
The at-fault party is the service tech who installed those mats.
You could go one step up and say the person who trained them may also share some blame. Or the service manager.
Someone heard Bernard identify the life-threateneing problem specifically and ignored it and put the same mat back in the same car, and (predictably) the same thing happened again to Saylor.
That person should be criminally liable.
You could go one step up and say the person who trained them may also share some blame. Or the service manager.
Someone heard Bernard identify the life-threateneing problem specifically and ignored it and put the same mat back in the same car, and (predictably) the same thing happened again to Saylor.
That person should be criminally liable.
Remember, the person he told about the floor mat was the receptionist... Who most likely had no idea what Bernard was actually saying.
The point is...Its impossible to absolutely idiot-proof any complex machinery. Or, for that fact, anything not so complex. That's why hair dryers come with warning labels telling the user to not use the dryer while in the tub or shower.
I remember seeing an advertisement a while back from, I believe Allstate Insurance, that stated 600 house fires are caused each Thanksgiving day nationally by idiots frying turkeys.
Modern airliners are probably the best engineered, most reduntantly designed machines in general service today. Yet, as the Airbus A330 that crashed into the ocean several months ago once again proved (in this case, the airspeed sensors are suspected to have failed), disaster can always usurp even the best engineering.
There are those who, until their death, continue to make the case that the Saylor case was due to electro-mechanical UA, and no amount of evidence will change their mind...
That's why conspiracy theories about just about everything continue to persist... simply because no one can ever demonstrate with 100% reliability that the suggested (and most probable cause) wasn't indeed the case.
Sometimes, a story is much more compelling than the facts...
We're supposed to think a highway patrolman and another adult male in the passenger seat wouldn't check the floor for the pedal to see if it were entrapped?
Actually, there is quite a bit of information published on this event. And, I haven't seen any documentation that the previous driver has any relationship with Toyota (other than owning one) - Yet, it is HIS explanation in the link.... not Toyota's.
Again, I suggest you do a little research and read some of it, instead of going into your "analysis" with a pre-conceived explanation of what happened.
The facts are the facts, and no amount of wishful thinking will change that.
You are certainly entitled to your own opinion, just not your own facts.
That's right. That's exactly what you should be doing.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I was specifically talking about the top 7 automakers quoted in that article. If this (Toyota being in the same league of Mitsubishi) makes you feel better, go ahead.
Face it, Toyota is in trouble; and it will get even worse before it gets better.
I'll bet that Watanabe never would've guessed that his cost cutting efforts would have such far reaching effects and so long after he left the position. I'm sure there is a special place for him in Toyota's history though I doubt you'll ever read about it.
Good point, but the dealership Manager has to train all their staff. Someone comes in and says "your loaner almost killed me" and they ignore it, that's negligence.
Its impossible to absolutely idiot-proof any complex machinery
Could not agree more.
Sometimes, a story is much more compelling than the facts...
And again, could not agree more.
:shades:
True, but cost cutting has occurred across the whole industry. Especially vehicle made in the USA - they had to in order to remain cost-competitive.
The LF-A ad is very neat, and like I said those are already sold out. You have to lease one for 3 years (for something like $150k) and then pay the balance at the end of the lease to own it. They're trying to prevent speculators from re-selling them.
Her stories about UAW workers she knew were the funniest - forklift operators earning six figures (longevity seemed to be the key), people staying punched in while going to bars for long lunches, working under the influence and claiming it was medical conditions, etc.
Unfortunately that party ended, and she said she was earning $14/hour now, even after 8 years there. Still, they were doing OK, her husband had retired from the postal service, and they had come on motorcycles for the Memorial Day events here in DC.
She offered lots of insight - cost cutting pressure has sent them looking to Mexico for subassemblies, and quality is inconsistent. At a Honda plant, they had been promised 3 shifts, and when only 2 shifts surfaced, Honda had to pay big fines to the state (few jobs created).
My wife was bored to death so I left with 1,000 questions in my mind to ask her, but it was insightful nonetheless.
In a perfect world, that would certainly be the case (by the way, I agree with you...).
However, the article didn't address exactly how the information was relayed to the dealership representative...
It may have been...
"There's a problem with the floor mat, and it caused the gas pedal to get stuck once while I was driving..."
or a more forceful...
"THE FREAKING GAS PEDAL GOT HUNG ON THE GAS PEDAL AND DAMN NEAR KILLED ME!!!!!!!!!".
And, since a receptionist position usually doesn't pay the highest salary in the dealership, I would imagine it is "manned" by one that feels little dedication to the shop (other than the necessary amount needed to keep his/her job).
That's a problem that every business must deal with these days. And, the way things are going, I predict that problem is only going to increase.
That is why, IMO, the operator is (or needs to be) ultimately responsible for the safe operation of the equipment being operated.
I've been driving for 40+ years (legally), and while cars have changed immensely over that time, the average state driver's exams are pretty much the very same ones given when I was 16. Can you imagine airline pilots today taking the same flight instruction as they did 40 years ago in order to get a license???
But, given the current environment, I do agree that this guy (and the others that died in the incident with him) was/were dealing with a deck stacked against him/them before he/they even got into the car.
Its just a very unfortunately situation.
On holding down the start/stop button, I suspect he was unaware that it would shut the engine down after being depressed for 3 seconds. In the auto manuals on different makes/models that I have examined (Nissan, BMW and others), they are murky at best about that procedure. I suspect many manuals are being re-written to include that item now. Certainly, it should be emboldened somewhere obvious in the manual.
As for shifting to neutral, I suspect he simply was in a panic and it didn't even cross his mind... being with others (one on a 911 call for help) most likely only fueled the stress level. I've seen folks do some really wierd things under pressure...folks that otherwise would be perfectly rational in an emergency situation.
And, somewhere on the Unintended Acceleration-Find the Cause thread (at least, I think that's where I read it) there is a post regarding Mr. Saylor's official CHP duties. It would appear that there may be doubt as to whether or not he had been trained in any methods related to aggressive driving skills by CHP. So, evidently...just being a highway patrol officer doesn't automatically translate into being a well-trained driver able to react professionally in dire situations. I went to school with a friend who ultimately became a helicopter pilor for the state HP, and he never had any aggressive driver training (wasn't needed in his job description).
Personally speaking... While I think there is always a possibility of vehicle-caused UA, I'd be far more apt to accept it as a serious cause if it happened to a Mario Andretti, Danica Patrick or Jeff Gordon (insert any professional driver you wish...), and we were able to get the specifics from them as to what occurred..
RACE CAR DRIVER PUBLIC DRIVING FAILS (alllefttrurns.com).
I definitely would have tried shifting into nuetral though, that's a no-brainer.
That to me is the biggest mystery in that tragedy. That would have been one of my first instincts to shift to neutral. Holding the smart key for 3 seconds would not have occurred to me. That is a poor design feature. Smartkey is a cheapo workaround of the expensive keys with chips.
LOL!
That's rich!
From the link...
Danica Patrick
In 2008 Danica Patrick received a speeding ticket in her 2007 Mercedes for going 54 in a 35-mph zone in Arizona. A year before that, Patrick received a ticket for going 57 mph in a 40-mph zone and was forced to attend traffic school. According to the Associated Press, she has received several such tickets over the last few years. I like to think this is what happens (scroll to bottom) every time she is pulled over
While I think its funny, at least in her case, it was speeding... not DUI or something stupid like hit & run.
I think my point is still valid.
I agree. I would like to think that would be my first action as well.
But, even trained pilots do stupid things in an emergency.
Continental Connection Flight 3407 is an example. The plane went into a stall, and instead of pushing the yoke forward, the pilot pulled it back...EXACTLY the wrong thing to do. Of course, it later came out that he was busy "chatting up" the co-pilot and not paying attention to the controls, as well as not being the brightest pilot around. Still, that is one of the most basic actions taught in the most basic pilot training.
From the link...http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Buffalo,_New_York_plane_crash_may_have_result- - ed_from_pilot_error
The investigation into Continental Connection Flight 3407, which crashed near Buffalo, New York last week, suggests that the pilot of the turboprop commuter airliner may have put the aircraft into its plunge.
A source close to the investigation says that information from the flight data recorder on board the aeroplane indicated that the pilot's control column, the device which is used to steer the aircraft, was pulled upward abruptly, thereby causing the nose of the aeroplane to pitch up.
The sudden pitch-up movement happened soon after the flight crew received a warning in the cockpit that the aircraft was about to stall. In aviation, a stall is when the air no longer flows over the wings of an aeroplane, and the aircraft can no longer keep the lift necessary to keep it airborne, causing it to fall.
The normal manoeuvre to recover from a stall for wing icing is to apply full power to the engines and push the nose down. For a tail stall recovery, the opposite procedure is used: the nose should be pulled up and engine power reduced. In this instance, the pilot seems to have pulled the nose upward, but also increased the engine throttles to their full setting.
After the aeroplane pulled up abruptly, it then pitched down at an angle of 31 degrees, rolling left and right, partially upside-down. This sort of stall is known as an aggravated stall, and it can be very difficult to return the aeroplane to normal flight from one. In this case, the pilot had less than two thousand feet to do so before the aircraft crashed into the ground.
The pilot's training has now been put into question, and it was discovered that the captain, Marvin Renslow, aged 47, had logged only 110 hours in this particular aircraft, though he had thousands of hours in similar aircraft. Experts say his experience should have adequately prepared him.
Who knows what was going through the guy's mind at that time...