Toyota on the mend?

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Comments

  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    edited May 2010
    GM-speak is something that GM invented. Toyota then studied at the altar of the GM PR machine for many years, until they were better at double-speak and misdirection than even GM itself. Call Toyota's version Toyota-speak, if you like, but GM-speak is all too real and still practiced by GM post-bankruptcy.

    The funny thing is that the world's two largest car companies (at the time) studied each other's practices so extensively, and yet I'm not sure that it benefited either one in the end.

    Toyota's mastery of Toyota-speak ensures that we will never know what is really going on behind the scenes over there, all these new weepy, grateful TV commercials notwithstanding.

    gagrice: Toyota did an exemplary job of responding to both customer feedback and feedback from Toyota dealer service departments (as to the problems they were seeing) up until about '01 or maybe '02. Then the massive expansion began. I am hoping they can eventually get back to the level of service they had prior to '02.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • tbone_raretbone_rare Member Posts: 96
    "Thankfully Toyota is offering some jobs in the USA". That's an interesting concept when a lot of people in these forums are blasting the federal government for the bail out for GM. I'd be curious to know how many people are employed by GM vs. Toyota in the US. If one of the domestic auto manufacturers had lied about their issues like Toyota did, legislators would have called for their heads! Americans need to quit sucking up to Toyota....and start supporting American companies that are trying to pay their workers a real wage with real benefits!
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    new hires will be paid no more than 50 percent above the prevailing manufacturing wage in the area where a plant is located

    Does that sound unreasonable? :confuse:

    New factories are moving to areas with a lower cost of living. That worked for Nissan in TN, for instance.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    OT is by Federal Law 1.5 times regular pay when you work over 8 hours in a day or 40 hours in a week. $14 per hour for an entry level manufacturing job is great pay

    I think it's actually the states that regulate overtime pay rates, but here in MD it is 1.5x after 40 hours.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    I caught it on Sunday night.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I'm surprised that you are surprised.

    There may be delays while they re-emphasize quality and safety, and conclude "if overhauling safety meant slowing product, so be it". That should be no surprise at all.

    their $50,000 SUV staying right side up

    Remember - it DID stay right side up. There was no roll or flip, it merely drifted sideways at excessive cornering speeds.

    What does that last remark mean?

    It means safety will get priority over new product deadlines. They are reluctant to have these delays but they may be necessary.

    I don't see any of that as surprising news.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Oooo, these guys are just BEGGING for the UAW to come! Gee, I wonder who's going to be buying Toyotas when everybody's making Wal~Mart wages?
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Did they shed any new light?

    Anything about follow-up investigations in the Sikes case - specifically the comment from NHTSA about the brake pad wear being inconsistent with full brake pedal force?

    Any new interviews?

    I'm just wondering if they uncovered anything new, or just re-hashed old news and summarized it.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    edited May 2010
    Here's what happens to a neighborhood when the manufacturing sector leaves:

    A mural in a Nicetown park depicts a matriarch presenting a turkey dinner to smiling relatives. Its message bespeaks social order, homey virtues, and veneration of the old - precisely the notions that were shattered last Monday when a well-regarded, 68-year-old handyman was shot on Rowan Street.

    The daylight killing of Lawrence Bennett, allegedly by Tyrone Roberson, 17, has riled and disconcerted Nicetown, an impoverished neighborhood f sporadic violence bifurcated by the Roosevelt Expressway and Germantown Avenue in a postindustrial sector of North Philadelphia.

    "Ordinarily, the elderly in Nicetown are given respect by virtue of their age," said Police Capt. Stephen Glenn of the 39th District. "People don't think the shooting is justified in any way, shape, or form.

    "So I don't quite understand this."

    Others say they do.

    "Yes, it's unusual a young guy kills an older one," said Mary Suttles, 66, a community liaison from City Councilwoman Donna Reed Miller's office and a longtime Nicetown resident. "But there's no respect anymore. Kids don't care any more about an old person than anyone else.

    "Lack of jobs, drugs, and bad education are to blame. It's depressing."
    Older residents will tell you life in the Nicetown neighborhood was comparatively grand half a century ago.

    Like much of North Philadelphia, Nicetown had a heyday, a time of bustling verve that made it a great place to live in the late 1950s and '60s, people recall.
    "It was close-knit with a lack of crime," said Majeedah Rashid, executive vice president of the Nicetown Community Development Corp.

    "It was lovely, clean," remembered Jesse Daniels, who moved to Nicetown on Juniata Street about 40 years ago, when he was 16. "Neighbors could keep their doors open. There were no abandoned buildings. It was a decent place to raise children."

    Residents saw a fitting correspondence between the name of their community and the lives they lived, even though the name is derived from John Neisse, a Frenchman and a contemporary of William Penn's.

    What kept Nicetown vibrant were jobs - specifically factory and warehouse jobs that were plentiful when America was a country of manufacturers.

    Residents even now can rattle off the litany of companies that offered living wages and decent lives, then moved on: Pittsburgh Plate Glass, Midvale Steel, and, most recently, Tastykake.

    At one time in the 1960s, the now-shuttered Budd Co. facility sprawled over 85 acres of Nicetown and employed 6,000 in its automobile parts plant, historians said.

    Now, dead factories litter the landscape like wrecked ships marooned by permanent low tide.

    There is, said Suttles, a bitter, mocking quality to the omnipresence of empty buildings whose jobs went elsewhere.

    "It just breaks my heart," she said.

    As in many poor Philadelphia neighborhoods, white people moved out of Nicetown, African Americans moved in, jobs left, and the local economy collapsed - all between the 1960s and '80s.

    Drugs and their by-product, random violence, found purchase in a place that began leaking hope.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Nothing I haven't already heard or seen posted here.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    edited May 2010
    You're having a lot of fun with the "Wal~Mart wages" comments, but I think you're way, way off.

    I did a quick search for retail cashiers and found a random sample:

    Sears, TN, $5.75 per hour
    WalMart, Canada, $7.75 per hour
    WalMart, location undisclosed, $9.40 per hour
    Wal-Mart starts their employees from just a little over minimum wage to a couple of dollars over minimum
    Wal-Mart is $6.55 hr
    Wal-Mart $8.50 in Texas


    This source says the average wage is $8:

    http://www.counterpunch.org/cox04202004.html

    This source says $8.23, pretty close:

    http://www.ufcw.org/take_action/walmart_workers_campaign_info/facts_and_figures/- - walmartwages.cfm

    If so, the $14/hour starting wage for Toyota would be a whopping 75% higher. Not even in the same ballpark.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I completely agree. The entitlement mentality in the World today would have US believe a person should get a great wage no matter what the market. Unless the US is willing to lose more manufacturing, they better get used to lower wages for menial jobs. Toyota is still providing good jobs. The UAW mentality helped sink the domestics. Ford is making money because they went out of the USA.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,691
    > I'd be curious to know how many people are employed by GM vs. Toyota in the US

    That would need to be FULL time jobs. Toyota has lots of part time employees, at least they did before the expose came out! They probably have laid those off to collect entitlements from the local communities.and state governments.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    edited May 2010
    Ironically...

    My best friend's wife worked at Ford, in marketing. It was a white collar job, though. Her job was outsourced. :(

    She took a job with Nissan. They moved from Orlando to Franklin, TN. The cost of living is lower there, so she actually moved up to nice McMansion with twice the square footage. She went from a Mercury Mountaineer to a Nissan 350Z roadster, and just traded to a new Maxima.

    I think we all have to get used to globalization. Resistance is futile. :D

    Ford is going overseas for lower-cost labor, will continue to do so, and in fact NEED to do so to ensure their own survival.

    Meanwhile, the "imports" are here to stay, the chicken tax guarantees that. They can find economies in building the cars where they sell them. They can also hedge their bets against currency volatility by building on different continents.

    Anyone else find it odd that of all the car models raced in NASCAR the Camry is the only one built in the USA? :surprise:
  • wxwarriorwxwarrior Member Posts: 1
    edited May 2010
    Two weeks ago my wife was stranded on the freeway as her friends prius just quit - all the lights came on, the engine died and the tranny could not be shifted out of drive. Then last week the same prius had to be towed from the womans driveway. This morning a camry ran a light - narrowly missed t-boning me. The driver looked embarrassed throwing his hands up. I guess the accelerator was stuck - don't really know though. Goes anyone know if this stuff is hurting toyota sales?
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    Americans need to quit sucking up to Toyota....and start supporting American companies that are trying to pay their workers a real uncompetitive wage with real uncompetitive benefits!

    ;)
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    I completely agree. The entitlement mentality in the World today would have US believe a person should get a great wage no matter what the market.

    It cracks me up that people think a cashier is a "career". A boxyboy, a waitress (at other than a high end restaurant), a greeter, a stocker - these are jobs for teenagers or college students! Or at best part time jobs for the second worker in the family. People who think they're going to live their lives with these jobs as a primary are not going to have a high end existence. Nor should they.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    edited May 2010
    Surprised? Oh, I wasn't surprised. And I don't believe this company has really turned the corner it needs to turn just yet. They are currently spending a lot of time and energy slapping lipstick on a pig, but whether all these changes cause them to become more connected to customers again, as well as rein in quality control and the safety aspects of their engineering, remains very much to be seen.

    I used a turn of phrase regarding the GX460 "staying right side up", but really that vehicle was wildly out of control in the videos I saw of it being tested. it is a vehicle that is (a) high up with a high COG and (b) has no road or steering feel at all. The stability control shouldn't let it get anywhere close to where it did, and I don't think that's an isolated or extreme opinion - CR seemed to agree, as did many folks interviewed. Whether Toyota agreed in hindsight or just fixed it because of public outcry is something we will never know, now that it is back on the market.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Last week they were spontaneously combusting! :surprise:

    Looks like Toyotas have improved this week, then.

    Thanks for the update. ;)
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    edited May 2010
    I'm not sure if drifting/oversteer is something I'd describe as "wildly out of control", but it certainly did not behave the way a vehicle with stability control should behave.

    Not too long ago that sort of skid/drift was desired, because the alternative would be a rollover.

    Consumer Reports actually rolled an Isuzu Trooper and a Suzuki Samurai. Car & Driver rolled a Jeep Liberty as well.

    The Lexus did not roll or tip. I'd choose a little drifting over a rollover any day.
  • obyoneobyone Member Posts: 7,841
    I'd choose a little drifting over a rollover any day.

    That is until you see that sidewalk quickly approaching and the vehicle still out of control.
  • obyoneobyone Member Posts: 7,841
    Back to Toyota profits. I'm sure you agree that Toyota's today aren't selling for as much as they sold for a year ago. So if the sales price hasn't increased, the only other place would be a lowering of costs namely labor and parts. We have already witnessed the cost cutting in parts in Toyota recalls and looking at the approach they take in using slave labor, I'd say any company could increase profits at the personal suffering of those third world country labor that Toyota uses EVEN in Japan.

    They are also actively lowering wages and benefits in their USA plants and I'd say they will soon approach Wal-Mart wages.

    There were a group of elderly Japanese who swore revenge at the end of WWII for embarrassing their emperor. Was Toyoda one of them? They supplied the government with a whole bunch of trucks and equipment during the war so I wouldn't be too surprised if he was. That would also explain why their market is closed as far as importing products made in the USA.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    edited May 2010
    Slow down, I say. Driver error all the way.

    Most people only saw the clip where the Lexus slides. Watch the whole thing. They approach that decreasing radius curve at an abusrdly high speed.

    You can't cheat the laws of physics - even with stability control it probably would not have completed that turn. It may not have skidded off course, but it still would have gone off course without skidding.

    You'd still likely crash.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    You overlooked volume - economies of scale help improve profits.

    A big corporation like Toyota has high fixed costs, but once those have been covered, incremental sales increase profits quickly and directly.

    $14/hour is a long, long way from $8/hour. Ask anyone who earns $8 if they'd be interested in a job that paid 75% more (or even 50% more). You'll have a huge line of applicants.
  • robsisrobsis Member Posts: 162
    Just think....with those great cars being built at $14/hr, we could unionize, raise the price of the cars, give the workers three times as much and add absurd benefits...and let quality fall into the bottom of the tank...then blame management for the drop in quality, then strike and add to the companies woes.... and absolve all those workers from any of the blame in regards to the fall....

    Oh, wait? I forgot. That's already happened in the American auto industry before, hasn't it? Thank God that Toyota sees that all you need to do is pay a fair wage and treat your people right and they will stay and do a great job for you. (Not speaking of anyones comments as to third-world slave labor...just talking the US here!)

    (sorry, NOT a big fan of unions..all they've ever done is take my money for dues and give me excuses why they couldn't help me when I needed them..IMHO, they've run their course...they were valuable 100 years ago, not in todays market, with all the governmental agencies and attornies running around.)
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    Tesla to make electric vehicles with Toyota, buy NUMMI

    Automotive News -- May 20, 2010 - 5:36 pm ET
    UPDATED: 5/20/10 10:34 p.m. ET

    PALO ALTO, Calif. -- Toyota Motor Corp. and Tesla Motors Inc. will team to produce electric vehicles at New United Motor Manufacturing Inc. in Fremont, Calif., a plant that Toyota last year ruled too inefficient to keep open.

    Tesla will acquire the now-closed NUMMI property and employ 1,000 people building unspecified electric vehicles in a partnership with the world's largest automaker, the companies announced Thursday.

    Toyota will invest $50 million in the small California-based electric sports maker in exchange for Tesla's common stock when the EV company completes its planned initial public offering.

    In addition to the NUMMI purchase, the venture will spur a product-development relationship between the automakers.

    Under the partners' scenarios, Tesla will gain from Toyota's scale, engineering resources and access to its supplier base. Toyota, in turn, will have Tesla's lean and rapid product development, as well as its electric vehicle technology. Toyota is still using older-tech nickel-metal-hydride batteries in its Prius and other hybrids, while Tesla is using newer, lithium-ion batteries.

    .......“NUMMI is a massive plant. We're going to be occupying a little corner,” (Tesla CEO Elon) Musk said. He added that he expects the plant to build “hundreds of thousands” of more affordable electric vehicles in the longer term.


    http://www.autonews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20100520/OEM05/100529982/1186-

    I'm glad they are still going to be building cars at NUMMI, it seemed a shame to lose it totally. And its a reasonably good deal for both sides, this venture-cash-for-battery-technology swap. The amount of money is relatively little for Toyota, huge for Tesla, and if it gives Toyota a leg up in the race to introduce the next-gen electric cars, it will end up being a priceless investment.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
    That's great news all around. Jobs saved and saving Tesla Motor from failure is a win-win. :shades:
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Why not, use the NUMMI factory. It is coming out of our tax dollars.

    That cost will be covered by $465 million in Department of Energy loans that will fund the manufacturing ramp-up, as well as development of the upcoming Model S sedan.


    Anyone want to guess if the UAW is included in the plan? My guess is the company will recruit NON Union people for their 1000 eventual employees. When Toyota shut down the plant because it was inefficient, the UAW was the biggest factor. Now that WE are footing the bills it is a great place to do business.

    There are still many obstacles to selling a $40k+ car with very limited range. Even with the $7000 tax rebate. That limits the buyers to people that pay that much in taxes to start with. The current Tesla is a joke IMO. You may want a car with 6000+ AA sized batteries in your garage charging. I DON'T. This does not make Toyota look good except in the eyes of the blind.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    There are still many obstacles to selling a $40k+ car with very limited range. Even with the $7000 tax rebate.

    Well, this $40K sedan is supposed to be the equal of the BMW 3-series in terms of speed and handling, and will only be $32,5 after the rebates. Not to mention it will create no tailpipe smog-forming emissions. And the range is expected to exceed that of the Leaf, which people are calling a pretty good deal at $23K after the federal rebate.

    I think this thing has potential, but will reserve judgment until they actually have it fully designed and ready to show. Seems like a good idea, no?

    Mainly I think it's good that this company's manufacturing unit will remain in California (there was talk of Texas and other places even further away), given that it is a Silicon Valley company. And I do think the relationship will prove beneficial for Toyota in the long run.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Seems like a good idea, no?

    Seems like a good idea, Yes!

    I have always been an EV supporter. Just not liking the direction it is headed. A simple in town solution as a second car or commuter vehicle would be my choice. Everyone is looking for the miracle battery. Until that is invented we will be in this same 100+ year old holding pattern.

    Toyota has wisely stayed with the NiMH until a better battery comes along. They have enough problems without having Li-ion batteries burning homes down.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited May 2010
    Mainly I think it's good that this company's manufacturing unit will remain in California (there was talk of Texas and other places even further away), given that it is a Silicon Valley company. And I do think the relationship will prove beneficial for Toyota in the long run.

    I've long had doubts about Tesla's viability but this looks like a good deal all the way around to me too. Some jobs are created, a plant remains on the tax rolls, and Toyota needs all the good PR they can get right now (as does Governor Schwarzenegger).

    The way Subaru sales are going, maybe Toyota can set up a line for them there sometime.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    The big question is, will the Tesla be worth $10k+ more than the Leaf. Both 5 passenger. And mileage is a direct calculation to the amount of energy used. So Tesla can make all the claims they want about mileage. The proof is in the driving.

    Just in: will the UAW kill the project before they even get started?

    DETROIT, May 21 (Reuters) - The United Auto Workers union urged Toyota Motor Corp (7203.T) and electric car start-up Tesla Motors to hire union workers when they reopen a recently closed plant near San Francisco.

    http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSN2113644620100521

    No way Tesla can compete paying line workers $30 per hour. If I am doing the hiring I would not talk to anyone that was even related to a UAW worker. The fact that it is OUR tax dollars opening the plant TesYota may be screwed from the get go.
  • xluxlu Member Posts: 457
    edited May 2010
    Now it's the Japanese made flag ship LS being recalled in Japan first (before the US recall). How would the conspiracy theory work here?

    Lexus LS recall
  • xluxlu Member Posts: 457
    DETROIT (Reuters) -- Toyota Motor Corp.'s sales fell in early May from April as hefty buyer incentives started in March are losing their impact, Edmunds.com said on Thursday.

    Retail sales for Toyota in early May are down 12 percent, Edmunds said.

    "We're noticing that Toyota's incentive program is starting to fall on deaf ears since most of the people who were open to getting deals from the automaker already made their purchases," said Edmunds analyst Jessica Caldwell.

    "Our Toyota cross-shopping data indicates that the brand has not yet recovered from recent image problems."

    Read more: http://www.autonews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20100521/RETAIL01/305219950/1- 448#ixzz0odVS9A2T
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    Yes, but the Leaf is a "5-passenger" in the same way a Versa is a 5-passenger - it can be done and there are 5 seatbelts, but you wouldn't put 5 adults in it for very long.

    I believe the Tesla 'S' will be a whole size class larger. And with the moves of a BMW for the same price (after federal rebate) as a BMW, I think it has a shot.

    That is the design spec, now let's see if they can do it. This car is still two years away.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    And with the moves of a BMW for the same price (after federal rebate) as a BMW, I think it has a shot.

    My guess that would defy the laws of physics. Though there are people in our government that say they can do that. It will be interesting to see how involved Toyota gets in the project. I think it is strictly a PR move for them.

    The Tesla sedan with a base price of $49,900 will not be for everyone. Nice commuter for an LA Yuppie. Or movie mogul with more money than brains. I don't see you or myself popping for one.

    http://www.teslamotors.com/models/
  • obyoneobyone Member Posts: 7,841
    Hawaii would be a perfect place for this vehicle. Would take me almost two weeks to hit 300 miles. :)
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    edited May 2010
    Don't forget your high electric cost. I figured a small EV in CA with out 35cent per KWH would be equal to a small diesel car. So far all the specs are very speculative.

    PS
    A Prius may be the perfect Island rig.. :cry:
  • obyoneobyone Member Posts: 7,841
    My opinion is that hydrogen is the best option. Check it out GM and The Gas Company are teaming up.

    Hydrogen cars
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    That still does not answer the question of who can afford a minimum $100,000 hydrogen fuel cell car. I have not heard much on the Honda FCX that was going to revolutionize transportation 4 years ago. Last news I read Honda leased 3 cars in 2008 at $600 per month. I am real skeptical.

    Biodiesel is a green fuel available on some of the islands. VW TDI is a great alternative to cars like the Prius. Rest is still Pie in the Sky..
  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Member Posts: 7,709
    More Toyota auto haiku! :D

    Toyota no good.
    Why would anyone buy one?
    Unintended take off eeeeeww!!!

    2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick

  • delthekingdeltheking Member Posts: 1,152
    edited May 2010
    The latest news is that Toyota has the price of hydrogen cars to $50k by 2015. :P
    Time to catch with Toyota`s sudden unintended acceleration in hydrogen/fuel cell development, I guess!! ;)
    Here`s the link:

    link title
    http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2010-05-11/classified/chi-toyota-hydrogen-fue- l-cell-sedan051110_1_hydrogen-fuel-cell-toyota-gas-powered-vehicle
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    2015 will come and go and we will still be driving our gas powered cars. I have heard about the holy grail of auto propulsion my whole life. For more than 50 years it was always 10 years in the future. It is not practical as a fuel until they come up with a practical way to produce hydrogen. You can get more bang for the buck using natural gas directly than producing hydrogen from natural gas.

    Of course, customers have to buy that vehicle as well. The prospects of a $50,000 car with limited options for refueling seem suspect right now. It's possible that by 2015 some kind of bare-bones hydrogen infrastructure could develop in some regions of the country, but even if Toyota gets the cost of a vehicle down to $50,000, many hurdles remain before hydrogen adoption begins on any significant scale.

    Even Masuda admitted that the market for the fuel-cell sedan would at first be "small, but with some support." GM, Mazda and Honda have been on the hydrogen path for some time, but the nearly non-existent infrastructure in the U.S. has prevented retail thoughts ... along with the nearly $1 million cost for their vehicles as well.
  • delthekingdeltheking Member Posts: 1,152
    edited May 2010
    No one is talking of revolutionizing the transportation industry. Far from it. Hydrogen wont be viable for some times ,,may be decades,maybe never. It would need massive infrastructure and technology.No holy grail here. :shades: :shades:

    My response was to your statement that fuel cell cars costs 100k and above. ;);)
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I think Toyota knows that getting the fuel cell vehicle down to $50k will be a trick in itself. CA has many hydrogen vehicles running around. Ahnold has one of his Hummers converted to run on hydrogen. Which proves that no problem that money cannot overcome. The technology is old. It is getting it cost effective that will take a miracle. A practical EV may be just as difficult to produce. That means TCO that is equal to a gas vehicle of the same size and luxury.

    I don't see Toyota selling Fuel Cell vehicles at a loss like they did with the Prius.
  • obyoneobyone Member Posts: 7,841
    That's good news. Now with a case of UA your chances of surviving just increased. Wait do they do those tests at 120 mph?
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    edited May 2010
    Try getting a Sienna up to 120 mph, and let me know when you get there... ;)

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    You may want a car with 6000+ AA sized batteries in your garage charging. I DON'T

    Noone does hyperbole like Gary. Noone.

    Keep it up, it's funny and harmless as long as people realize you're joking half the time. :D

    I'm surprised Telsa didn't partner with Nissan, but I guess Nissan bailed out of Cali and went to TN already. Hope they save a few jobs - CA needs them!
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Wait do they do those tests at 120 mph?

    Sienna is governor-limited to 110mph. :P
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