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Toyota on the mend?

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    fezofezo Member Posts: 10,384
    Yeah, they said they weren't pulling out of the TV market either.
    2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
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    ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Where my kids at?

    "Honey, where ARE the kids?" :D
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    ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Did they stop selling TVs? :confuse:

    The Big Screen store had a screamer of a deal on a 70" LED Mitsubishi TV. You pay $2000 and you got that plus a 2nd 42" TV as well. :surprise:

    They need a partner, perhaps PSA will step up.

    Any how, they're no threat to Toyota.
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    nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    edited May 2010
    From what I saw, the market is up 17% for the year, Toyota (and Honda) are only up 12% for the year. That's all I meant by my original remarks.

    It seems from the numbers you posted that with market-matching slatherings of incentives and 0% financing, Toyota has gradually reversed the trend and will end up ahead of the market by year's end, but for now it's net market share change this year is a loss. which is probably a good thing, where Toyota is concerned.
    Time for them to stop pumping up the volume at the expense of quality. Time to get back to being #2. #2 is a comfy spot to be as an automaker - the media attention will fade back into the woodwork and people will go back to picking on GM (assuming GM regains the #1 spot). :-P

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

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    nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    edited May 2010
    The CEO emhpatically states that they're not going to leave the U.S. market

    LOL! I seem to recall the CEO of GM "emphatically" stating they would not be declaring bankruptcy, about six weeks before they did so despite his statement! :-P

    CEOs say things....

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

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    fezofezo Member Posts: 10,384
    Well, I've seen darn fewer, as in none, around here for a while. Maybe they just don't like Jersey.

    I had an old 27" Mitsubishi set which refused to die but did get to the point where it was clearly terminally ill....
    2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
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    gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    "Honey, where ARE the kids?"

    That would be the day I spend $43k for a vehicle to have the kids throw up in. It is strictly a Yuppie Mini van.
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    cannon3cannon3 Member Posts: 296
    Toyota is in no way going to fail here in the U.S. market. However, Toyota will loose market share over the next 3-5 years and it will be permenant. My feelings are GM will regain #1 in the next 2 years, Ford will bump Toyota to number 3 in the next 3-5 years here in the U.S. market. What I am getting from most Toyota owners, present and previous is they are more miffed that Toyota tried to hide their problems rather than just step up and claim them. This has damaged Toyota. Anyone who knows the Japanese culture knows they hide issues rather than reveal them to save face. I know, I worked for a Japanese company for 10 years, visited Japan and learned their culture first hand.
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    explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 19,399
    that video was hilarious. if only Connecticut had 7 letters available for vanity plates. 'SWGR WGN". :)
    2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
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    steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited May 2010
    You guys are replying to an especially idiotic spammer for some accessory site. He didn't quite figure out how to paste the link in his post. :P

    But at least his little fake question ("I think that Toyota's sales has gone up") was good for a few replies. :D
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    gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I saw the BMW in the link and figured he was selling something. Despicable :blush:

    Just to keep the spin in perspective around here. Toyota should just drop the Yaris and Scion brands. They are all in the toilet. Not worth the fuel to haul them over here. Cannot be making money on them. If not for SUV and surprisingly Tundra sales the overall 12.8% sales would be lower. Total ToyLex cars a weak 10.3% gain YTD. Total light trucks and SUVs was a better 16.5% YTD.

    The amazing number for me was Chrysler up 25% YTD. With April sales up a whopping 61%.

    Toyota can thank the increased sales of full sized PU Trucks and Luxury vehicles for making their climb out of the toilet easier.
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    fezofezo Member Posts: 10,384
    Well, Chrysler sold 4 cars in April 09. In April 10 they made it to 5 cars.
    2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
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    gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I was thinking that Andres gave them another chance and bought a Neon. Do they still build the Neon? I think it is Dodge trucks and Jeep that are carrying the load. Though it seems the gains are from several Chrysler products. They may make it yet.
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    lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    I believe the Neon was replaced by the Caliber. The one neat feature of the Caliber is the drink cooler.
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    anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
    The SRT Caliber had amazing potential, 300hp, AWD, stick. in a hot looking profile. Dropping the AWD was a dumb move. Now they don't even offer the SRT anymore.
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    andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,730
    Dude, here's the problem with the SRT Caliber. It has a 1995 Dodge Neon Chassis and Frame. It is a Neon with a powerful motor and crude AWD.

    The Chassis is just not up to the refinement and strength requirements of a "performance" vehicle.

    Also, it's from Chrysler so you'll have to use your warranty often, and most likely that will be in the government treasuries warranty coverage bailout program.
    '15 Audi Misano Red Pearl S4, '16 Audi TTS Daytona Gray Pearl, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
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    ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    That would be the day I spend $43k for a vehicle to have the kids throw up in. It is strictly a Yuppie Mini van.

    The local dealer has 109 Siennas in stock and the median price is just $27,632. Far from Yuppie territory.

    Just checked and you can't spend more than $39,846. None in the $40s out of 109 in stock.

    The $43k van may be a bit of a unicorn.
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    ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Toyota should just drop the Yaris and Scion brands

    I don't really like the Yaris or the current Scion lineup, but...

    Keep in mind young people that buy these will grow up to buy bigger Toyotas and maybe even Lexus models. Plus it gives them loss leaders that get people in to showrooms.

    These models exist overseas and sell in higher volume, so all they really have to do is adjust them to meet US emissions and safety regs.

    Scion timed the market very badly - the xA and xB were small and got upsized just as shoppers started looking for smaller and more fuel efficient cars.

    Personally I can't stand center-moutend gauge pods, a deal-killer that cross the Yaris, xD, and xB right off my list no matter what.
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    fezofezo Member Posts: 10,384
    Those center mounted gauges are a killer. The last thing I need is a way for my wife to more easily see how fast I'm going. :sick:
    2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
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    gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I thought the first xB was cool. I even looked at them and would have considered one if they were not so expensive. Lots of room and great headroom. Then they came out with the second model and it is just BUTT ugly in my opinion. xB Sales attest to what I am saying.
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    ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Yes, perfect for back-seat drivers, nightmare for the driver.

    I don't want to have to wear binoculars to see how fast I'm going. In fact I'd probably just mount a big Garmin right in front of me and refer to that instead.
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    ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I also liked the original xBox. That's what I called it.

    It had massive passenger space in a tiny package. Great space efficiency.

    The 2nd one is bigger outside without being bigger inside. Worse, it has a HUUUUUUUUUUUGE blind spot between the C- and D-pillars.

    In fact it just has one enormous C-pillar, no side window back there at all.

    Worst downgrade ever. The 2.4l engine replaced the 1.5l engine just as gas prices spiked.

    DOH!
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    gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    The xBox was cute in its ugliness. The new version has nothing going for it. In fact all the wannabe xBox copy cats have gotten it wrong. The closest might be the HHR.
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    steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    The last thing I need is a way for my wife to more easily see how fast I'm going.

    Quote of the day. :D
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    larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    edited May 2010
    Gary - the only visual difference in the two is that the new one is italicized a little bit.

    It's mostly the same vehicle, just with a backward slant. Less square and more parallelogram.

    People are not buying as many of them because there are other options - Kia Soul, Nissan Cube.

    As one reviewer of the "new Xb" said: The xB maintains its cubist exterior design, but the new version sports beveled corners where the old car featured the sheer facets of a cut diamond. These softened edges and integrated bumpers give the new car a fresher, sleeker appearance.
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    nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    price (and invoice) the Yaris and Scions in accordance with the fact that Toyota's profit margins are much smaller on imported cars than on ones built here. That is part of the reason there is $3000 of wiggle room when you are negotiating to buy a Corolla, and only $500 of wiggle room when you are trying to buy a Yaris.

    They screwed up by redesigning the Yaris sedan to be 90% of the size of the Corolla, I will agree. But if you want a new $13K Toyota in my area, it's going to be a Yaris (with crank windows, etc; at least A/C, ABS, and 6 airbags are standard). Corollas start about $15,5 in NorCal, because Toyota doesn't build strippo Corollas for this region.

    The Scions have a certain sportiness when compared with their similar-sized Toyota models, so I can see the attraction relative to Toyota cars. But there are so many other good choices in that $16-18K price range, it's no wonder they stopped selling once they "redesigned them for America" and sucked out all the JDM quirkiness.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

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    nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    edited May 2010
    As one reviewer of the "new Xb" said: The xB maintains its cubist exterior design, but the new version sports beveled corners where the old car featured the sheer facets of a cut diamond. These softened edges and integrated bumpers give the new car a fresher, sleeker appearance.

    This is exactly the type of review I had such contempt for when the new xB came out. This person, just like Toyota designers on American shores, had no idea what made the old xB so cool, so they had no idea that they had removed all of it when they designed the new xB.

    And yes, sales of the new model sucked before the Soul and the Cube ever arrived.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

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    ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Plus they completely removed the rear most side window, adding a massive blind spot.

    To me it totally lost its edge. I liked the old one, you couldn't give me a new one.
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    larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    nippononly says, "And yes, sales of the new model sucked before the Soul and the Cube ever arrived. "

    But it CERTAINLY wasn't because people thought the new one was "Butt Ugly" as Gary put it.

    Maybe the "straight-up-boxiness" added a cool factor that I'm too old to recognize, but I don't think they lost sales because it became "slightly less boxy."
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    gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    To me it totally lost its edge. I liked the old one, you couldn't give me a new one.

    We have a consensus. The new xB is a POC to look at and drive. That includes the Soul and the Cube. Horrible looking little vehicles. I don't like the Fit either.
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    fezofezo Member Posts: 10,384
    I liked the old Xb and am no fan of the new one. The old one looked like it was designed by the same guys that used to do milk trucks.

    There's a house I pass every day going to work that has two identical black Xbs in the driveway.

    Both of my older daughters did their behind the wheel driver's ed in an Xb and a new Beetle. The younger one preferred the Xb. That a girl!
    2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
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    gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Maybe the "straight-up-boxiness" added a cool factor that I'm too old to recognize, but I don't think they lost sales because it became "slightly less boxy."

    Most of the old style xBoxes I saw were driven by 50-60 year olds. It was meant for the younger generation. Toyota screwed up and ended up doing ok with a different age group. Why they changed a popular model is beyond me. It is rare to see the new style. Still lots of the older ones on the road.
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    larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Well, they both look like PT Cruisers, and those were heavily middle-aged and older owners.

    And no, the "new generation Xb" did not fall off in sales because it was "ugly." The new one came out in 2007. 2006 was the height of popularity because it had maxed out the buyers who wanted it. Every car has a peak year.

    It fell off in 2009 because of OTHER OPTIONS ON THE ROAD, like the Soul and the Cube. Like I had said.

    Year Sales
    2003 6,936
    2004 47,013
    2005 54,037
    2006 61,306
    2007 45,834
    2008 45,220
    2009 25,461
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    gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    edited May 2010
    It looks to me like 2007 should have been better than 2006 and it wasn't. Last year of a model is usually a slow year and first year is great. That did not happen because the new xB is UGLY

    The xB looks about as much like a PT Cruiser as it does a Camry. No resemblance what so ever. Face it Toyota took a winner and destroyed it. I know you hate to admit you are wrong. No way you can spin those numbers and make the new generation xB look good.

    The Fit, Soul, Cube and xB show that there will always be someone that will buy vehicles no matter how ugly they are. None of which are big sellers for their makers.

    PS
    Chrysler was smart enough to stick with a winner on the design of the PT Cruiser and get a lot of good years out of it. 10 years and 2 million sold is not too bad.
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    ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    The drop from 61 to 45 is significant but let's remember gas prices spiked and they swapped the 1.5l for a 2.4l, so that had a lot to do with it.

    The Soul doesn't bother me, but I like the interior mostly.

    The Cube is unique enough, with its asymmetry, that I actually like it.

    Too bad Nissan's gear box is like stirring a wooden spoon in a bucket full of nails.
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    nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    edited May 2010
    Yeah, the Cube manual is so terrible it's the one car in existence where I would prefer the CVT to the manual. For me that's saying a LOT. I wouldn't buy either because the wind noise in the Cube is completely deafening at any speed over 50, and the thing keels over like a drunken sailor whenever you take a turn.

    All criticisms you could never level at the old xBox. And as for the spin on the sales numbers, OMG! The old xB sold more in its last year than the new model EVER sold in a year. The peak sales usually come in year ONE for a car model. They came in year 3 (its last year because of a truncated model run) for the old xB because Toyota had previewed the new model by the end of '06 and everyone had realized they had totally messed it up. :-P

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

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    gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Toyota had previewed the new model by the end of '06 and everyone had realized they had totally messed it up

    I think it is fair to say after the change to the xB the whole Scion line went down hill. Toyota cut the soul out of the brand. The xBox was the best seller in the whole line. The tC is a nice looking little coupe. Just a limited market. Another mistake by Toyota. They all add up to the fall from number one.
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    larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    edited May 2010
    nippononly says, "The peak sales usually come in year ONE for a car model."

    Maybe in the 70s and 80s that was true. But not today.

    Most carmakers "test" the waters with a smaller manufacturing run in the first year, rather than take the risk of making 200,000 of them and only being able to sell 125,000. They base future demand on past sales and ramp up or down as the market calls for.

    I got involved because Gary said the Xb sales fell off because the new model is UGLY. Well, that's his OPINION, and it had no bearing on sales.
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    gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    You seem to be the odd man out with your opinion. Don't feel bad I am usually the one. Toyota blew it with the 2nd gen xB. Scion is a dead brand in the US market.
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    ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    tC is overdue for a refresh. Coupes go stale quickly.

    I believe it was based on the old euro model Toyota Avensis coupe.

    Funny thing is Toyota used the new Avensis platform for the pricey Lexus HS hybrid. So it'll be awkard if they use the same platform for a low-priced Scion.

    Any how, I think Scion is down but not out.
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    nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    They have already announced the platform for the next-gen tC, which debuts for MY 2011 I believe, and it ISN'T Avensis. I forget what it IS, but I remember remarking that it had changed.

    And of course Toyota still plans to release the iQ next year as a Scion (an on again, off again plan, but currently on). So if Scion is dead, its owners don't seem to know, but that could well be simply because they are ill-informed.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

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    obyoneobyone Member Posts: 7,841
    So if that's the reasoning for Scion what's behind the dismal sales of the Tundra?
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    ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    A Scion branded iQ is a good idea, it goes back to the quirky ways that Scion succeeded with early on.

    It would not do much volume, but it would not cannibalize other Toyota models, either, so I think they would be incremental sales.
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    ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    :confuse:

    TUNDRA April 8,949 6,156 +45.4% YTD 29,106 24,505 +20.0%

    It had a great April, up 45.4%, and is up 20% for the year, even.

    If you want to see "dismal" sales look at the Ridgeline. Edmunds wrote:

    Every one of the Honda division's light trucks recorded a double-digit sales increase compared with last April, led by the 46.3-percent increase for the Ridgeline midsize pickup, although its total volume, at 1,732 units in April, remains stunningly low

    Even in a great month (relatively speaking), it's a wallflower.
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    anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
    edited May 2010
    No sure how you define "Dismal" as they were up over 45% compared to April 2009 and up 20% ytd compared last year.

    link title

    Tundra has been neck and neck with the Sierra ever since the new model arrived. So I guess that would make Sierra sales " less Dismal"? :confuse:

    Tundra YTD 29,106
    Sierra YTD: 32,862

    Not saying the Tundra has been a runaway sales success (Quite the opposite actually) but painting it in a negative light as you are doing is misleading. ;)
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    ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Big pickups appeal to a pro-domestic crowd, so they have home-field advantage more so than in any other segment.

    I'm surprised Toyota is able to exist in that segment at all.
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    obyoneobyone Member Posts: 7,841
    The initial sales forecast for the Tundra was 200K units per year. It never came close to that number and when comparing to the F150 and Silverado sales, the Tundra sales is dismal. If you look at the Sequoia sales which is based on the Tundra platform now that is really dismal.

    Perhaps it's because GMC advertises as "Professional Grade" deters a lot of buyers. I know that everytime I bought a truck I never considered a Sierra. Even the Titan showed a 26.5% increase in sales over last year though I doubt Ghosn is jumping for joy.
    2010 Truck sales
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    andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,730
    I think Toyota's success in the big pickup market has to do with their legendary reliability for those old tiny little pickups they started out with in the 70's and 80's. I remember somone drving one of those for hundreds of thousands of miles deep into the 90's.
    '15 Audi Misano Red Pearl S4, '16 Audi TTS Daytona Gray Pearl, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
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    anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
    Yup, the 200k figure was a bit optimistic but then again, they introduced the Tundra as the gas prices spiked and the economic downturn of the Country was emminent. Also, lacking a heavy duty version didn't help since real truck buyers opt for the heavier applications where the Tundra was more of a homeowners use.

    As juice mentioned, typical truck buyers are also very loyal to domestic nameplates so I'm not surprised they wrote off a Toyota before even giving it a chance. Not all though as I know a few people who made the switch over the years...

    What happens to a Tundra after 100k miles of hard use?
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    gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Hmmm, they did not mention rust. Was this after they addressed that problem? Or was it the dry West TX climate that did not cause any rust? I like the idea of what Toyota did. It would have been nice to have an independent verification. Not sure who does that sort of thing on vehicles.
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