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Comments
Again, partially the fault of the driver. Just like not shifting it into neutral.
I tried this out on a couple of Infinitis and it is a really cool technology. No fumbling with the fob at all. :shades:
link title
push start is not the monster you are making it out to be by any means! I'm surprised your trying to tell us that mostly expensive luxury vehicles are the only ones coming with it as a defense?
Try it at home later. Cover yr gas pedal with yr floor mat and see if the gas pedal even moves one tiny bit !!
Yes. And try this...
Take a 6 oz balsa-wood wedge and slide it up under a 200 lb solid oak entrance door. Then, try to move the door in the direction of the wedge.
Tell us how easy the door moves.
Its not the weight of the wedge or the mat...Its how the raised surface (due to insufficient clearance between the bottom of the pedal/door and the top of the mat/wedge ) causes increased friction, keeping the pedal/door from returning to its original "relaxed" position. Its how door-stops work.
The Saylor case was NOT a floormat issue though. As I explained long ago on this forum, there is ZERO POSSIBILITY that a full-grown man, with another full-grown man as his front seat passenger, WHO IS ON THE VERGE OF DYING IF HE DOES NOT DO THIS, would NOT be able to say, "Hey pal, hold the wheel for a second while I lean down with both hands and yank out this stuck floormat !!!!" and grab and pull that floormat out. ( And it would never have come to that if he would have just put the car into neutral and/or had known how to shut the car down with the Power button. )
Unfortunately for Toyota owners, there is apparently some sort of defect SOMEWHERE in the system which causes the motor to rev uncontrollably.
I'll be glad when NASA finds the defect and people can get on with their lives.
The use of lasers instead of radar is spreading rapidly throughout the CHP organization. Very soon, radar detectors will be obsolete in Cali. They get much more accuracy and a much more unassailable ticket when they use laser.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Yes...Assuming he understood that the floor mat was the cause of the stuck accelerator pedal. If he didn't understand the mat was the problem, why would it occur to him to attempt to move it out of the way?
So, why didn't he put the car transmission into neutral?
Could he have simply been paralyzed by panic???
I'll be glad when NASA finds the defect and people can get on with their lives.
Other than a few hard-liners against Toyota posting here, I would say that most people have already decided to get on with their lives. Toyota sales continue...
Good point in theory, but in reality, I think any of us in that situation would look to see if something was holding down a stuck pedal and not assume that nothing could be done about it.
Personally, I would like to think I would do that as well. But, I also realize I am not "everybody".
You know, one of the major causes of private plane crashes is simple...They run out of fuel. Even with a fuel gauge in front of them.
Another major cause in more advanced private plane crashes...The pilot forgets to lower the retracted landing gear before touch-down.
People do strange things sometimes, even when they aren't in high-stress situations. That's why almost any poster here has seen auto accidents that beg the question..."How stupid was THAT driver?"
Put even the best trained individual in an emergency situation and he will sometimes take the worst action possible. Example: the Colgan Air 3407 pilot that pulled back on the stick in a stall situation, causing the plane to crash. One doesn't have to spend much time on Google to find tons of examples where someone died by taking the wrong (or in some cases...no) action.
Sometimes, people simply do the wrong thing...Even when they know better.
Sure they can, and DO.
But in this case you had 3 adults in the car, including two men in the front seat. I'm not buying that NONE of them thought to check to see if something were holding down the accelerator.
Well, you aren't alone in that belief.
However, I am not one of them. The previous driver of the loaner car experienced the very same thing, and clearly identified the mat as the culprit. He could reproduce it, and even attempted to get the dealer to correct it, to no avail.
I think Saylor simply lost rational control of the situation and went into a panic.
While I do think there is a valid possibility of vehicle induced UA in any vehicle, at least, for me, using the Saylor's case as the "poster boy example" seems like a dead end. There's just too much evidence against it in this case.
But, that's my opinion. And, you're entitled to yours as well.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oIS5n9Oyzsc
The 5 year old Civic was ahead of Corolla in May too. We will see lots more of that - they didn't really redesign the Corolla at the last makeover so much as go on an internal quest to see how cheaply they could make it SEEM like a "new" model....too bad Honda is delaying the redesigned Civic a year, or they could really take advantage of this timing.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Will the rental companies take a chance on Toyota with all the bad publicity?
All good modern detectors detect both radar and laser these days. Unfortunately with laser, if it goes off, it's probably too late, but not necessarily.
We'll see.... I get CHP constantly using radar to this day.
Laser jammer
I'm going to have to disagree with you. :surprise:
I think a normal everyday person would first shift into neutral and then worry about why the engine is racing itself. First shift into neutral, pull over to the side of the road, then look to see if you have a floor mat/stuck accelerator issue. At 120 MPH, even with 5 people in the car, you don't want to be wasting time and effort in the driver's footwell unless you are certain (100% certain) that is the cause.
People forget that Saylor and his passengers did just about everything as wrong as you can do it. He should have taken the 52 exit heading West. He should of scraped himself along a guardrail to scrub off speed. He should have shifted. Parking brake anyone? He should of tried to rearend someone moving at full freeway speed rather than hit an Explorer that was stationary or barely moving (not to mention he clipped it rather than direct hit). He should of held down the start/stop button until it killed the engine.
The more and more I think about it the more and more it sounds like a suicide mission.
Your thinking and posts are so silly. At 120 MPH taking the 52 would have launched them over the guard rail. Maybe a Porsche at that speed. Not a wallowing ES350. I agree it would be logical and my first instinct to shift into neutral. We may never know why he did not do that. If Saylor was doing anything suicidal his brother in law would have said so to the 911 operator. He talked to him for close to a minute. That is two miles at 120 MPH.
I'm not willing to duplicate a realworld test to prove you wrong, but that doesn't change my opinion that I am right.
I don't think he'd be launched over the guardrail. I think he'd understeer at that speed into the guardrail and scrub off major speed each time he bounces from wall to wall until the car destroys itself enough that it can no longer propell forward.
Granted, it's not a great situation to scrub with guardrails at 120, but it's far preferable to hitting the "end of the road" and a dead end T intersection.
You live in the area. See how fast you can safely take that 52 on ramp from the 125. Keep the radar detector on. :shades: You know those Santee Sheriffs are out to make a buck.
This witness Bernard did not show up until the Sheriff's Dept determined the wrong floor mat was installed. Very convenient given Toyota's history of deception to have a witness come forward that shoves the blame onto the dealership. Where is this mystery witness? Never interviewed by the press. Spoke to investigators and never seen again. Mighty suspicious, wouldn't you say?
http://autos.aol.com/article/toyota-tragedy-saylor-family/
The official crash report... I suggest you read pages interviews on pages 21-24, and the "conclusion" on pages 28-29..
http://autos.aol.com/gallery/saylor-crash-report/
Do you really think this guy (Bernard) would vouluntarily come forward and lie to the cops? Why?
Lets see... The dealership knows where he lives, and so do the police. He didn't just "disappear".
Show a money trail, and you might get someone to believe it.
Otherwise, its just a theory that someone with a vivid imagination would believe.
Maybe someone's been watching too much TV....
Making Toyota the most desperate of the bunch.
50% less desperate than any of the domestics, by my math. I'm looking at absolute numbers, you're only looking at increases/decreases.
Looks like everyone but GM had lower incentives in May vs. April.
Check out the residuals - Mazda and Subaru on top (we own one of each). :shades:
You'd think someone would try neutral first, since it's clearly in your line of sight (and anyone in the car can reach it).
Maybe he could not reach the gas pedal, depending on where the seat was positioned.
Remember - Bernard was able to pull the stuck accelerator on the very same car, not just the same model, but that same VIN.
The shift knob is right there in front of everyone. I bet all 3 adult passengers could reach it (rear passenger may have to remove a seat belt). Just one tap up/forward.
Now look at the gas pedal. Only the driver has a chance (1/3 of the adults), and it's a long, long reach with your hands.
I wonder how Bernard was able to get the mat unstuck, come to think of it. I wonder if he just grabbed the back of the rubber mat and pulled the whole thing back. Did the report say he actually grabbed the accelerator pedal itself? Seems like a pretty far reach.
I noticed noone shared this:
Chrysler Group is recalling more than 25,000 Dodge Caliber and Jeep Compass vehicles to address the risk that accelerator pedals could become stuck and cause unintended acceleration
Read more: http://www.autonews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20100604/OEM/306049956/1143#i- xzz0qIFVOx1c
Looks like 5 complaints so far despite it being a totally different design. Same supplier, though.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
On page 23 of the official incident report he stated that he was able to shift into neutral and move over to the side of the road and stop, with the engine reving at a high RPM. Once there, he used his foot to lift up on the accelerator pedal to raise it, stating it required some amount of force.
He then reached down and moved the mat with his hand, but did not say where he grabbed the mat. He said he didn't think it was attached using the retaining hook, as he was able to move it.
Once again, here is a link to the Official San Diego Sheriff's Incident Report...
http://autos.aol.com/gallery/saylor-crash-report/
It takes a while to read it, but it makes the cause of this accident pretty clear.
Alright, just for you I just came back from a few runs around noon through the 52 west offramp from 125 North. I had to make 2 runs because the first time some insanely slow driver was blocking the fast lane of the 2-lane ramp, and there also happened to be a vehicle blocking the right lane too.
On the 2nd run I maintained a stable 100 MPH on the 52 west exit safely (did have to change from left to right lane one time due to traffic). I wouldn't want to go faster then 100 MPH really, as that's really jamming for the turn. I probably did the turn in the 99-102 MPH range through the whole turn from start to finish. Now granted, my A3 has the "sport package suspension factory stock" but I have it a tad souped up (just a bit) with ultra lightweight 18" OZ Racing wheels with slightly oversized width 235/40R18 rubber. Also, the extra large tires for my A3 are about as sticky as street legal tires can get, being Nitto NT-05's. If Tire Rack carried Nitto, they'd classify these as EXTREME Summer Performance tires.
But I did this with no tire squeal or understeer. I think I could manage 110 at about the limits using only one lane, but 100 was fun enough for me.
So your right, no way the Lexus could make that turn at 120 MPH without crashing as it would be dangerous to try even in my A3. I just think that type of crash is FAR PREFERABLE to running out of road at 120MPH.
And the conspiracy on Bernard was just my curiosity. It seems like the news goes after every little story tied to this tragedy. Where was the interview with the star witness to what happened? Or the receptionist?
Do you really think this guy (Bernard) would vouluntarily come forward and lie to the cops? Why?
Toyota has paid off people in the past for their silence. You don't think they would pay someone to lie to the cops? Some of the top guys at Toyota tried to lie directly to Congress and got caught. When $millions and possibly $billions are at stake Toyota will do what is necessary to protect their interest. Having it conclusive that the floor mat caused the Saylor crash is called damage control. And I read all the reports as soon as they were published. And was fairly well convinced it was the dealers sloppy actions that caused the crash. Now I am not as certain. I may just have to join Larsb in his disbelief of what we have been told.
PS
Don't expect me to consider the Santee Sheriffs as impeccable investigators. I am almost as skeptical of them as Andres3.
The reason the Saylor crash fell onto the Sheriff's laps is because the accident technically occurred on Mission Gorge Road.
Heres goes the song, sing it aloud while remembering what toyota had done and the retribution coming :
" Desperado, why don't you come to your senses (have they ?)
You've been out ridin' fences,
for so long - now. (yea, since years way back their cover-ups)
Ohh you're a hard one. (oh yea, hard, cunning, callous, dishonest too !)
I know that you've got your reasons. (Damn right, to make billions now, then trillions in the future ! Money, money, money....its a rich man's world...)
These things that are pleasin'you (Seeing the cash pile stack ever higher)
Can hurt you somehow. (you can say that again man !!!)
Warren Buffett said another thing " We prefer AVOIDING DRAGONS rather than slaying them ".
Very smart ! Life is hard enough, why make it harder ? Why make it RISKIER ? Thats why he is so successful. Oh yes, he said one more thing : " The secret of getting really rich is AVOIDING RISKS ". Quite the opposite of the traditional " High risk, high return " advise given by average fund managers.
Thats why he very seldom screwed himself over the past decades. Lower risk, higher return, AND LONGER LIFE ! Thumbs up Buffett !
And thats also why he, one of the smartest and richest guy in the USA (and the world), DID NOT BUY A TOYOTA !!!
Find out for yourself what HE DRIVES....Any takers ?
PS
Don't expect me to consider the Santee Sheriffs as impeccable investigators. I am almost as skeptical of them as Andres3.
Well, I don't see that there is anything in existence that could convince you otherwise.
When one believes that witnesses are potential paid-off liars and investigating agencies cannot be trusted and/or are incompetent, then I fail to see what evidence could be produced that would change one's pre-conceived notions in an event such as this.
Now, do companies/individuals do extreme things to avoid "doing the right thing"?
One need look no further than the Gulf of Mexico to answer that question. Can you say BP?
But, in the Saylors case, the really BIG potential loser here would be the dealership. So, one would practically have to believe that ...
1- Law enforcement is stupid/corrupt/maybe both.
2- At least one witness was "corrupted" in some way to lie.
3- Somehow, the dealership is willing to take the blame for Toyota for some type of undetermined "compensation"... an event that may well cost them millions.
In my opinion, that's a real stretch...
As for your original question (where is this witness, and where is the receptionist, and why haven't they been publically interviewed?), logic tells me... what rational person would want to constantly be reminded about an incident that took multiple lives (an incident that may well have been avoided if they had done just a little bit more... taken just a few additional seconds...talked to one other person...mentioned a minor comment to someone in the service/detailing area)?
I would find that feeling very "uncomfortable", to say the least.
IMO, in this one particular case, the explanation put forth is also the most reasonable and plausible explanation.
Does unintended acceleration exist?
Maybe. So far, I haven't seen and quantifiable proof of it. But I don't rule out the possibility of it.
Thats why he very seldom screwed himself over the past decades. Lower risk, higher return, AND LONGER LIFE ! Thumbs up Buffett !
And thats also why he, one of the smartest and richest guy in the USA (and the world), DID NOT BUY A TOYOTA !!!
Find out for yourself what HE DRIVES....Any takers ?
Would that be the same Warren Buffet that runs Berkshire Hathaway, which in turn owns the lion's share of Moody's (the credit rating agency), the rating agency that totally mis-rated and over inflated the value of so many mortgage-backed securities?
You know, the mortgage-backed securities that caused the recent financial crisis?
What he drives/doesn't drive is simply irrelevant.
Buffett as an individual American citizen is known for his honesty and he is a good honest taxpayer. His tax payments a year is said to be able to foot the bill of ALL federal expenses for a certain period of time !
toyota, on the other hand, DELIBERATELY screwed people here and there. Now thats different.
Don't people value their lives anymore ? I mean, I know that owning a toyota does NOT automatically mean they will get SUA. BUT, why take the risk, no matter how small, WHEN you can buy another car proven to be safer and not made by rascals.
Do you have the facts in front of you about how quick their response was, or are you just making biased assumptions?
How long *DID* Chrysler take to respond? :confuse:
On page 23 of the official incident report he stated that he was able to shift into neutral and move over to the side of the road and stop, with the engine reving at a high RPM. Once there, he used his foot to lift up on the accelerator pedal to raise it, stating it required some amount of force.
He then reached down and moved the mat with his hand, but did not say where he grabbed the mat. He said he didn't think it was attached using the retaining hook, as he was able to move it.
People should read that report or at least your post again, so I've quoted it for reference.
This means Bernard did *not* reach the gas pedal while driving, which seems very difficult to begin with.
Remember, Sikes claimed he reached down and was able to pull up on the gas pedal several times while driving 100mph. I haven't sat in a Prius but I doubt that's possible unless he has super-human arm extension. That alone proves Sikes was lying.
My guess is Warren Buffet doesn't drive at all, but I'd say he's driven around in a Lincoln Town House or Cadillac DTS stretch limo.
I cheated and looked - most the Google hits look like a Lincoln to me. What do I win?
But that might change given he bought a huge share of Chinese auto maker BYD:
http://www.treehugger.com/files/2009/08/warren-buffett-china-byd-electric-cars-p- lug-in-hybrids-investment-profit.php
The story on Chrysler said there had been only 4 reports and the response had been quick by Chrysler.
Compare that to toyota-lexus' having had reports of UIA since 2002 and having worked to minimize the recognition thereof by misreporting the type of reports of acceleration to the NHSTA and appearing to have tried to manipulate the NHSTA through the MCI plan (friends & family).
> biased assumptions?
What do you think based on the above? :P
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/money/tax/article1996735.ece
"Warren Buffett, the third-richest man in the world, has criticised the US tax system for allowing him to pay a lower rate than his secretary and his cleaner."
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I would like to think I would shift to neutral as well.
But, once again, examine the Colgan Air 3407 crash, where TWO qualified pilots, after being repeatedly instructed to go to full power in a stall situation and put the nose down, instead pulled the yoke back, exacerbating the already critical situation and causing the plane to crash, killing 50 people. Now, pushing the nose down in a stall condition is taught to even the most basic pilot in training... ANY pilot training.
We KNOW this happened because we have accessed the plane's data recorder...its not someone's educated guess.
Why did they do that?
Beats me...but, they did it. Perhaps they were extremely poor pilots, maybe fatigued, maybe sick...but they had passed FAA certification requirements. They knew what to do, but failed to do it.
So far, I haven't seen where Saylors had any extra driver training, so why should he be expected to respond to a situation like a Michael Schumacher most likely would respond?
To me, its just another example of people doing the exact wrong thing in a stress situation.. Sometimes, s_ _ t happens. Its just that simple.
Panic, plain and simple.
I watched this autocross one time, and this guy driving a VW Golf rolled his car over in an extreme manuever. He reached his hand out of the window as if to prevent the 2500 lbs car from rolling, and suffered a serious injury to his hand.
Eventually he was OK, he came to nasioc.com later to give us an update, but it does to show that in a panic situation, your behavior is not rational.
This phenomenon is actually common - so much so that it's one of the reasons window nets are used in racing.
You take risks everyday when you wake up and get out of bed. You take them because people choose to LIVE life rather than HIDE in FEAR.
What cars have been proven safter than Toyotas, and by whom? Who's done this proving of superior safety in other vehicles?
I'd rather bu from rascals than lazy bums and incompetents.
The first thing a 911 operator should say in that situation is immediately shift into neutral.
Sounds like you already had the answers before you asked me?
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
That's not realistic with all the complexity in an automobile, but Chrysler knew they were using CTS as a throttle pedal supplier and those cars have been on the road for about 4 years now.
Sure, Toyota was slow/deceptive but I'm not ready to hand Chrysler any medals either.