Well thanks for the welcome. Actually I've been here before, but I don't post too often because sometimes things get a little too testy for my liking. (Might happen when some folks read this post!!) I have no doubts that the claim being made about older Toyota workers being mistreated is an exaggeration, and that an organization campaign is doing a bit of politicking. As much as I'll probably be criticised for saying so, truth is usually the first casualty in those situations! Yes, aging workforce is a big problem in this country, regardless of the industry. In case you haven't noticed, the mandatory retirement age is being raised in many areas because there is a looming shortage of younger workers--plus people are just living longer and don't want to leave the workforce. Also, there is a much greater awareness of repetitive strain injuries(regardless of age) which has given rise to serious focus on ergonomics in the workplace. The age of older workers needing "protection" is long gone, I think. Regarding corporations being heartless? I honestly think that's an overstatement. Many corporations are quite worker friendly, and its importance is recognised pretty well throughout industry these days. Besides, public corporations live or die on being able to satisfy stockholders who are unforgiving masters!! (How much stock do you have in your 401K, and how do you react when it sinks because profits are down??) Whether you agree or not with our free market economic system, it beats what's in second place!! I do agree with comments here about 'SOME' CEO and executive compensation being outragiously high though. Some of these grossly overpaid people should give their heads a shake--what kind of a message are they sending for God's sake?
Welcome to the forum. I respectfully disagree with you and believe the UAW article. Yes, I'm biased but I having a relatives and friends that worked for the internationals of the UAW, IUE, the storys are true. I've seen these story's for years coming from Toyota workers. It's almost like some of you believe large corporations really care about their people. That's a laughing matter today. Maybe years ago they did but today it's all about the buck.
Drfill, from my understanding no position in Toyota, has more than a 25% salary gap. From what I understand the CEO, makes less than Jim Press, because our salary's expectations here in the U.S. are out of whack. If I was Toyota, I wouldn't let anyone hire my best guy.
I agree that a few companies are looking after their employees without some laws to force them. Whole Foods Market did about $5 billion last year and they only pay the CEO 19 times the salary of the average employee. That is a rarity. It makes it hard to keep key people with all the head hunting going on. I also agree that the workforce is shrinking and age will be less of an issue. I would still like to hear from a Toyota line worker that is happy with the status quo.
The marker, or the market will make the corrections necessary.
If Toyota has high turnover, and quality suffers, they will make the corrections necessary.
If a worker is being underpaid, he will make the correction.
If the problem produces enough negative PR, corrections will be made.
If it's a favorable market for employers, workers will get less. If there are many opportunities, a quality worker will get more. Standard capitalism rules apply.
Toyota doesn't work in a vacuum, and American workers and workers in the Mexico plant won't make the same. Reality bites.
Some more growing pains that Toyota will have to overcome.
There's no slave labor or unsafe working conditions, and no worker is gonna get rich working the line. It's just a job. If that's your life's work, tread lightly. Manual labor is a tough road to hoe.
Some interesting responses. I'm grateful for them. Rocky, you hold to your beliefs if that's what you believe. No problem here. I can tell you this though. I'm self employed now (past 8 years!!), but it wasn't always that way. Before I got this "real job", I spent 15 years on the line at Chrysler, here in Lower Michigan. I became a shop steward after 3 years, and an area rep after that. Just before I left to start my own business, I was offered a job with the National Union as a regional rep., but by this time I was tired of the BS from both sides of the fence, so I turned it down. All I can say to you is "don't believe everything you read". What turned me off the job I was doing was the idea that as a rep.,you have to do whatever it takes to convince your "flock" that the union way is the only way. That involved telling the troops whatever they wanted to hear, no matter how off center it might be. Now that I'm on my own, I've looked at being an employer in an entirely different way. I can tell you too that I'm very glad I made the move!! At least now I can live with my conscience. One of my Automotive customers is an Asian automaker. Guess who. I would rather deal with them than the North American automakers any day.
Well I can congratualte you on creating your own business in the automobile industry. I do think your experience of being a union man will give you the morale grounds of treating your employees right.
A big international like the UAW, has to have one message to give to all it's members to keep them unified and happy. I'd rather the message be optomistic than negative. The workers deal with enough negativity on the shop floors and don't need that from their union. The Big 3 part of the automobile industry is seeing some of it's worse times. I however believe things are getting better. The SUV/Truck segment has always been a strong point for the big 3 and now some members of Congress want to implement such drastic changes it would certainly do severe damage to the big 3.
Toyota, is also very dependent on Trucks, and SUV's. They make some of the best on the market and not all of em' are just sipping gas. I hope for all party's sakes that they delay the implementation of these unrealistic fuel economy and emissions standards. What I'd like to see is within the next half decade they start to slowly make the improvements to not spring this on the automobile industry.
Well thanks for the congrats Rocky! My union background taught me that everybody's different. Some see things one way, and others see them completely opposite, and then (thank God!) most folks see things as they are. I also learned that the vocal minority tends to control most outcomes, because they make the most noise. Most of the time they are totally self serving and don't care about what's right, or what's best best for the majority. I try to treat my employees as best I can afford. I have profit sharing, and a host of other user friendly things, but it all boils down to economics. I do what I can. Example: the other day, one of my guys was painting a part outside, and the overspray got on some employee cars. I paid $200 for each of 10 cars to be fixed, and detailled in and out. Everybody was pleased with that. Inasmuch as only 40% of my business is automotive, I do have Toyota as a customer; I have spent much time in the Georgetown plant, and it is a great operation. I don't think you'll find too many employess there complaining, altho' my experience has shown me there will always be some you can't do enough for. Such is life.
2008 Tundra 5.7L auto, 14/18, 16 combined. Compare that to the 2008 Sierra 5.3L auto, 14/19, 16 combined. I think the two will be very close. The Sierra 6L with the same power as the Toyota 5.7L makes 13/17, 15 combined, under the new ratings system.
And that can be compared to the 2008 Ford F-150 5.4L auto, 13/17, 15 combined. And to the 2008 Ram 5.7L auto, 13/19, 15 combined.
Toyota is no fuel economy champ in this segment, but I would say they are right in the middle of the fray...
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
OK, you got me on that one. Still not what I am looking for in a 1/2 ton PU truck. No reason we should not get closer to 30 MPG with plenty of towing power. You know what I am referring to.
I know EXACTLY what you are referring to, and I think we should go so far as to MANDATE that all half-ton and greater pick-ups be diesel-powered. Indeed, I am disappointed that Toyota appears to be waffling and delaying on what were once pretty firm-sounding plans to put a diesel in the new Tundra by calendar 2009...
...and you can FORGET the fantasies of two years ago that there would be a hybrid Tundra available within a year of launch...I think that program is well and truly dead, haven't heard anything about it for ages...
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I would have bit my lip and bought a Toyota diesel PU truck in a 1/2 ton version. Sounds to me like they are just in the HP race with the rest. Someone needs to be a leader in the auto world. No one wants to buck the status quo in the USA.
I guess you missed my point. It was to build more efficient vehicles. Toyota is falling goose step in behind the Big 3 building gas guzzlers. Only one of your four points apply. The LS600hL is turning into a joke that NO BMW or Mercedes buyer would fall for. The LS460L seems to be in a good position. Only two of the 6 hybrids are selling the others are sales flops even with incentives. When they build a full size PU that gets significant improvement over the competition I will concede they are going against the status quo. I do not consider jumping into the HP race an improvement. The trucks I have owned since 1988 have had plenty of HP. They all had one thing in common. They used more fuel than was necessary to get the job done. Toyota has not changed that ONE LITTLE BIT.
Well, give 'em credit for three: Prius, Camry, and RX400H which was a wait-list car for a long time. Highlander hybrid, not so much! GS450H, almost no sales at all, right?
The LS600HL got a nice review on NPR this afternoon. Whether people will buy it is another question. I think a few Lexus devotees might, and a few rich hybrid fans.
I agree with you that the U.S. is very much a lockstep market, and Toyota has pretty much been right in lockstep with the rest. I do give them credit for continuing multiple small-car offerings when almost no-one else did, and for always making their small cars class leaders in fuel economy (and for making their midsize 4-cylinder offering good enough that 80% of their midsize sales were 4-cylinder, a powertrain with class-leading fuel efficiency). Also, the original Scion line-up was a step away from "lockstep", although the new line-up beginning this year looks like they are falling right back in line. :-(
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Not sure if the RX400h sales wait was on purpose to keep up the enthusiasm or legitimate. I am with you on the Camry 4 banger and Corolla. I even checked out the xB. It was so blinged up and over priced we walked away. I thought the Scion was selling good. Why would they screw with success?
I think we are seeing this the same. No real effort on any car company to do anything that would seem anti-competitive. I still remember when Chevy was locked out of racing because no one could beat them. I think Toyota is following a path to avoid any such lock out.
xB sales were going strong. Unfortunately, it was a virtually unmodified (except for small changes to federalize it) Japan-market bB, which was introduced in 2000, and was no longer going to be built over there. :-/
RX400H sales were good, they exceeded Toyota/Lexus sales goals for that model. The wait list was genuine, they were caught flat-footed when it first came out.
The funny thing about Chevy and Toyota is that Toyota has always seemed to try to be the Japanese GM, in its sales and advertising models certainly, and even in its line-ups. There is a difference between the two in corporate philosophy, I would argue (GM being very American in focusing too much on short-term fixes to long-term problems because of the board and stock fluctuations), but apart from that it comes down to rep. The reliability thing won't stand Toyota in good stead forever, as it appears to be slipping and GM appears to be improving.
One area where I wish Toyota would mimic GM more is in the number of sport offerings, although I wish that Toyota would take a different road to sport than GM: instead of taking existing models and adding power, I would like to see them subtract weight and improve handling. That was the formula for some of the great sporty cars in Toyota's past. The only sporty model that was ever fast in a straight line was Supra, but they had lots of other fun sporty models.
Instead, Honda continues to trump them on sport offerings, even as it somehow manages to also offer most of a full line and make good profits. Lesson for Toyota, perhaps? Yes, Toyota, it CAN be done!
I went and took a personal look at some full-size pick-ups the other night. Seems like the domestics still make a model without carpeting. The cheapest Tundra, the one that Toyota calls its work truck, has full carpeting, stereo, A/C, etc. Maybe Toyota would be better off leaving the commercial end of the market to the domestics for now, and just selling double-cab and CrewMax versions. That way they could break into the retail large-truck market first.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Hybrids aren't the problem, market expectations are the problem. And Toyota/Lexus strategy maybe a problem as well!
Tundra has the best powertrain in the class. If that is a small achievemment, hopefully the domestics can come up just as small.
As you were properly corrected, Toyota/Lexus currently sells 4 hybrids, 3 are successful. The 600h will be successful as a halo car alone. Everyone who comes through the door on it will walk out with an LS.
Lexus makes more on a pimped-out 460L anyway, so they won't cry if you "settle" for a $90k 460.
When you say best do you mean most HP or best fuel economy? I want a 1/2 ton truck that gets 30 MPG. So I look at it as a failure. It does not have the most powerful engine nor the best engine for economy. So where is it the best? GM beats it on both ends. And GM is far from what I consider great.
Not to mention the Tundra is butt ugly.
PS The new Silverado blows the new Tundra away on all aspects of crash tests including rollover.
My take on most of the Toyota line has been fair to mid line/land. However within those parameters Toyota has done "reliability" well, or at least the perception of.
Toyota had a great run in the 1990s. I think they got too big too fast and is causing them to lose that edge. The mighty can and will fall. No company is invincible.
I don't think so, because 4 vs. 5 stars in the frontal NHTSA test is no big deal, seriously. I know the public doesn't realize this.
What is the difference in rollover ratings?
I say, wait till the IIHS frontal offset and side impact tests.
Great run in the 90s regarding reliability? Well, so far my 2004 and '05 Camrys have been stellar in this regard, but it's admittedly too early for a definitive judgment.
Styling is subjective, but all of the large trucks have too-large grilles and emblems, IMO. I prefer a more understated look, but that ain't gonna happen with pickups, whose owners like the "macho" in-your-face look.
Yes, I think being in the #1 BIG "seat" changes perceptions in a BIG way. Toyota is now understanding (in the US markets anyway) what it is like to sit beneath the "sword" (Sword of Damocles). Indeed GM could not catch a break as the #1. Now, almost anything they can halfway count as a success is newsworthy. Before being #1 Toyota could sweep quality issues (such as faster wearing pads and rotors READ less than adequate) So now they are newsworthy for stuff I would not necessarily want to be known for; such as the BIGGEST volume and % recalls in auto HISTORY, etc. So Toyota might see this as just the price for being (now) number one. Toyota in the past has gotten away with spotty dealership experiences. As the number one, this will as a minimum "bite them". One of the underlying assumptions is of course the USA archetypal favoring the "under dog"
Have folks ever wonder why the Asian markets (elite) will pay almost expotentially more for German cars; with its correspondingly poor reliability; in stark contrast with the now legendary Asian high reliability? Yes you got it, different assumptions.
To me anymore BMW's look like Camry's and Camry's look like BMW's!????
Well many here would use the difference between 4 & 5 stars to claim their choice was superior. I was more responding to the superior drive train comment. The Tundra 2WD only got 3 stars on rollover tests.
I prefer the clean lines of the pre 2002 Chevy PU trucks. I think change for the sake of change is bad. Dodge started that ugly gross grill look. Ford followed and Toyota being the copy cats that they are did the same. Chevy went a little different with less of a radical grill. Still not esthetically pleasing. NOt all of us feel that way. I have a neighbor with a Titan and Armada. I cannot understand what he sees in either vehicle. Horrible looking monstrocities.
Keep your 2004 and 05 Camrys. They are superior to the new ones. My cousin bought a 2007 XLE V6. Says it is not the car her older Camry is. Leaves the new one in the garage. She does not like the handling on the new one. Plus claims it is not as fast.
Fast wearing pads and rotors -- what cars? My '97 Camry had its front pads replaced for the first time at 109K miles, and the rotors were untouched. The rear drums never needed any work. I sold the car at 111K miles only to upgrade to an '04 Camry with side airbags.
OTOH, my '90 Sable's front rotors warped before 20K miles.
BIGGEST volume and % recalls in auto HISTORY
That's a big claim -- do you have the stats to back it up? How big was the Chevrolet engine mount recall of the early 70s? What about the Ford cruise control/fire recall (still ongoing)? And the Ford ignition switch recall?
I look around at cars today and wonder who is copying who? Lexus was smart to copy the looks of Mercedes in 1989. To many they lost the edge until this latest LS460 came out. The last generation of Lexus LS430s were not attractive at all. The rest of the Lexus line are just rebadged Toyotas.
Yes, being Number ONE makes you a big target. I think GM may be relieved to give that big Zero to Toyota. Honda and Toyota have proven you can make money when you are not on top. Maybe GM will learn the art of building cars and making money again.
gary says, "Keep your 2004 and 05 Camrys. They are superior to the new ones. My cousin bought a 2007 XLE V6. Says it is not the car her older Camry is. Leaves the new one in the garage. She does not like the handling on the new one. Plus claims it is not as fast."
Well, that's merely one person's opinion, not a FACT.
If it's "not as fast" that must mean Toyota gave it a smaller engine, which flies in the face of your "Toyota is just going for HORSEPOWER" argument.
In fact, she's incorrect if she thinks the 2005 XLE V6 is faster:
I really do not follow the Toyota line per se. These are fact and not opinions. In my experiences, 1985 Camry, 1987 Toyota Landcruiser, 1991-1996 Toyota Landcruisers. The Camry was the "secret warranty". Rotors, pads, front suspension, rear suspension replaced at no cost. Front end was realigned. The Landcruisers checks were sent as a result of a class action suit to where Toyota sent the paper work as owner of record and checks were retroactively sent.
I do intend to keep my Camrys. I still have my '98 Nissan Frontier because it's been bulletproof and gets great gas mileage compared to today's "compact" and larger pickups.
3 stars for rollover is pretty typical for trucks and SUVs. Relatively few get 4 stars, and these tend to be the newer, lower car-based types. For cars, 4 stars is the norm, with very few getting the top mark of 5 stars.
I think you are in denial that the armor is failing Toyota. We are not talking about recalls 30-40 years ago. We are talking last year. Nearly a million cars with steering issues recalled. Deaths as a result, cover-up and apology to the Japanese people. That is a bit more of a problem than bad switches or engine mounts.
I will repeat. Better keep those pre 2007 Camrys. They may be the last of the good ones for the foreseeable future.
They're too big to do that. Not enough $$$ to go around having to support 8 brands here in the states alone. T/H have the luxury of supporting few nameplates, concentrating each individual model on its intended market.
No infighting for sales, no starving brands to satisfy others.
They could always issue a "Road to Redemption" speech...
Seriously, they have more money than god right now and if they throw enough at the issues that they were having, they'll be back on track. As of last year, Toyotas recalls were still half of GM's, and was well ahead of Ford and Chrysler so the cieling isn't exactly caving in on them...
The Ford recalls are recent, and the cruise control one is still ongoing, as I said. This is the one that causes vehicles to catch fire even while parked, some in garages that in turn ignited the attached houses. People have been killed.
The ignition switch problem is also faily recent, and was problematic because cars could stall without warning -- my in-laws had one such car ('94 Sable) with this problem. The engine mount issue, while long ago, caused throttle linkages to jam when the mounts failed, often when the cars made left turns. Not a good thing. There were crashes; I don't remember if there were deaths, but certainly there were injuries.
The Toyota steering issue killed no one -- there was ONE crash in Japan in which there were injuries. This is the same issue where 3 managers were investigated (not jailed as some have claimed) for not reporting problems to their superiors. This has been exaggerated into saying deaths occurred, etc. We've discussed this before. The vehicles involved were 1989-96s, not recent models. Toyota recalled them long after they were legally required to.
Maybe that is what makes the new GM PU trucks superior. They are on truck frames and handle like a car. I drove one and it was pretty nice. I have not driven the Tundra yet. Why is it so difficult to just say, yes, GM has a safer truck than the Toyota Tundra? The Tacoma has a great safety rating. Why did they skimp on the Tundra? Were they in a hurry to get it to market? I think Toyota is headed in the same direction that brought the other auto makers down.
I think one would have to say this is a trend. It did not just start with the Tundra. The F-100 was a real dud. This continued to the Tundra, while good, really did not top the then other truck offerings. It did overcome Toyota's reluctance to put a V-8 in a close to full sized truck. However it did get someone who didn't want to get a so called AMERICAN (Ford,GM, Dodge) truck into an AMERICAN (Toyota) truck.
On "safer" I'll withhold judgment until the IIHS test results are released. I've seen the detailed NHTSA frontal results, and there's not a lot of difference, mainly higher chest forces on the Tundra dummies compared to the Silverado dummies. Head injury measures were very similar (and in my view, these are more significant).
I haven't looked into the rollover details, I'll admit, but one thing the Tundra has going for it is standard ESC, which should reduce the frequency of rollover in actual use.
On that note, it'll be interesting to compare the trucks' crash records in the real world, but that'll take a few years.
Now, I must really get back to work...be back this evening!
emerging as the number one global carmaker (ahead by 90,000 sales in the Jan-March period) has been the gross exaggeration of anything negative about it in the press and here at Edmunds.
My jaw has dropped as I have heard about the deaths and cover-ups related to the old Prados. In fact, there were no criminal charges for anyone, there were no deaths, and the one Prado that crashed in Asia because of a bad tie rod was almost 15 years old at the time.
The law did not require Toyota to recall vehicles as old as these, yet it did anyway, at no small expense to itself. As a result, my 17-year-old 4Runner with a quarter million miles got free new tie rods. I guess the old ones were faulty, huh?!
Obviously the first quarter does not necessarily secure Toyota's spot as #1 global carmaker, but it appears this may be the year. And I do think they need to make a priority of getting and then keeping quality under control. I WAS encouraged to see that my new Matrix is much better built than the one I had five years ago (long story!). No rattles or squeaks, which was a problem in many new Toyota cars around 2002-2003.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Hope you have a good day at work. I am packing for Hawaii for 2 weeks. Give you folks a breather. I will check in from time to time. Keep it between the lines.
210delray: The engine mount issue, while long ago, caused throttle linkages to jam when the mounts failed, often when the cars made left turns. Not a good thing. There were crashes; I don't remember if there were deaths, but certainly there were injuries.
The Chevrolet motor mount recall affected V-8 Chevrolets built between 1965-69. ALL V-8 equipped Chevrolet cars (except the Corvette, if I recall correctly) were recalled, so it was huge, given Chevy's volume at that time. And, yes, there were fatalities.
It was a big deal at the time. I was still in grade school, but I remember my parents talking about taking our 1965 Chevrolet Bel Air wagon in for replacement motor mounts.
As an aside, I don't remember the quality of that car being all that impressive. Our 1967 Oldsmobile Delmont 88 - bought used from a neighbor - seemed like a giant step in quality and reliability. The Chevy was shot at 100,000 miles, while the Oldsmobile was still going strong at 110,000 miles when my parents traded it for a slightly used 1976 Delta 88 Royale hardtop sedan.
Hold on we must be talking about a different recall. Here is the one for nearly a million in the USA.
WASHINGTON May 17, 2005; Ken Thomas writing for the AP reported that Toyota Motor Corp., in one of its largest safety recalls ever, said Tuesday it is recalling more than 750,000 pickup trucks and sport utility vehicles because of problems with the front suspension that could hinder steering.
The company said the recall covers 774,856 vehicles in the United States, including the 2001-2004 model years of the Tacoma, the 2001-2002 versions of the 4Runner and the 2002-2004 model years of the Tundra and Sequoia.
Here is the world wide recall of nearly a million vehicles. Not the same steering problem and it included 170,000 Prius.
WASHINGTON - Toyota Motor Corp. said Tuesday it is recalling nearly 1 million vehicles across the globe to replace faulty parts that could cause drivers to lose control of the steering wheel.
The recall affects about 986,000 vehicles across 10 models, including its popular Prius hybrid car. More than half of the affected vehicles are in Japan, company officials said.
The intermediate shafts and sliding yokes in the recalled cars lack the necessary strength and could distort or crack under strong pressure, causing drivers to lose control of the steering wheel, the Japanese automaker said in a statement.
In the United States, Toyota is recalling about 170,000 Prius models because the steering shaft assembly could become loose or crack under certain conditions.
"I deeply apologize for the concerns we caused our customers and for the delayed explanations on the issue," Masatami Takimoto told reporters after submitting a report on the defect in Toyota Hilux Surf sport utility vehicles to the transport ministry.
People living in Japan are not fooled by Toyota. Typical comment on Japan Today.
Toyota execs aint sorry for nuthin but the fact they got caught ! This is more than just about "causing concerns" to the public. This is about integrity, ethics, and morals ! Ol Takimoto better have a better line than this crap... it reeks of smarminess and arrogance. Lets hope the big three jump all over this state side... put the hurt on Toyota, strike while the iron is hot ! Again... after 8, and probably many more, years of bold faced lies and manipulated data... you'd have to be a moron to buy a Toyota. Can't wait to get back to the states and visit the Toyota dealerships. They always have those consumer comment cards at the desk.
No shave ice where I am at. Just fresh papaya and Kona coffee watching the sun come up over the Pacific. Where I stay there is nothing but ocean for 2500 miles. That is the freshest air on earth. I'll try to post a picture.
You got your opinion and I have mine. I think the GM 5.3L V8 is better than the 5.7L from Toyota. Just going by numbers on paper is not a legitimate criteria for basing an argument. How does it do pulling a trailer? What kind of real life MPG does it get? You are hoping the 6 speed will have a better go than the 6 speed in the Camry. The Power train in the new Tundra is all speculation at this point. It could be good and it could be a giant flop. It is not even flex fuel rated. Why is that? Was Toyota in too big of a hurry to get it to market?
Yes I have been dreaming that we would get what the rest of the world has had for decades. A PU truck that gets great mileage. A Mid sized Diesel PU truck.
If Ford would offer a small 3 liter diesel in an F150 it would be capable of 30 MPG on the highway. I would rather have a 2.5L 4 or 5 cylinder rather than a V6 diesel. Then great mileage would be a given. I would say the first to market will make a killing. Not every one that buys a truck is interested in 0-60 times or needs to haul 11,000 lb trailers. That should be left to the 1 ton diesel trucks.
Toyota sells more cars than GM for first time ever
Apr. 24, 2007 10:20 AM
TOKYO - For the first time ever, Toyota sold more vehicles globally in a quarter than General Motors, preliminary January-March figures show, the clearest sign yet that the Japanese company is on track to overtake its U.S. rival as the world's top automaker.
Toyota Motor Corp.'s success is fueled by robust demand for its reliable, fuel-efficient models, including the Camry, Corolla, Yaris and gas-electric hybrid Prius.
Comments
I have no doubts that the claim being made about older Toyota workers being mistreated is an exaggeration, and that an organization campaign is doing a bit of politicking. As much as I'll probably be criticised for saying so, truth is usually the first casualty in those situations!
Yes, aging workforce is a big problem in this country, regardless of the industry. In case you haven't noticed, the mandatory retirement age is being raised in many areas because there is a looming shortage of younger workers--plus people are just living longer and don't want to leave the workforce.
Also, there is a much greater awareness of repetitive strain injuries(regardless of age) which has given rise to serious focus on ergonomics in the workplace. The age of older workers needing "protection" is long gone, I think.
Regarding corporations being heartless? I honestly think that's an overstatement. Many corporations are quite worker friendly, and its importance is recognised pretty well throughout industry these days. Besides, public corporations live or die on being able to satisfy stockholders who are unforgiving masters!! (How much stock do you have in your 401K, and how do you react when it sinks because profits are down??)
Whether you agree or not with our free market economic system, it beats what's in second place!!
I do agree with comments here about 'SOME' CEO and executive compensation being outragiously high though. Some of these grossly overpaid people should give their heads a shake--what kind of a message are they sending for God's sake?
Welcome to the forum. I respectfully disagree with you and believe the UAW article. Yes, I'm biased but I having a relatives and friends that worked for the internationals of the UAW, IUE, the storys are true. I've seen these story's for years coming from Toyota workers. It's almost like some of you believe large corporations really care about their people. That's a laughing matter today. Maybe years ago they did but today it's all about the buck.
Drfill, from my understanding no position in Toyota, has more than a 25% salary gap. From what I understand the CEO, makes less than Jim Press, because our salary's expectations here in the U.S. are out of whack. If I was Toyota, I wouldn't let anyone hire my best guy.
Rocky
If Toyota has high turnover, and quality suffers, they will make the corrections necessary.
If a worker is being underpaid, he will make the correction.
If the problem produces enough negative PR, corrections will be made.
If it's a favorable market for employers, workers will get less. If there are many opportunities, a quality worker will get more. Standard capitalism rules apply.
Toyota doesn't work in a vacuum, and American workers and workers in the Mexico plant won't make the same. Reality bites.
Some more growing pains that Toyota will have to overcome.
There's no slave labor or unsafe working conditions, and no worker is gonna get rich working the line. It's just a job. If that's your life's work, tread lightly. Manual labor is a tough road to hoe.
DrFill
Rocky, you hold to your beliefs if that's what you believe. No problem here.
I can tell you this though. I'm self employed now (past 8 years!!), but it wasn't always that way.
Before I got this "real job", I spent 15 years on the line at Chrysler, here in Lower Michigan. I became a shop steward after 3 years, and an area rep after that. Just before I left to start my own business, I was offered a job with the National Union as a regional rep., but by this time I was tired of the BS from both sides of the fence, so I turned it down.
All I can say to you is "don't believe everything you read".
What turned me off the job I was doing was the idea that as a rep.,you have to do whatever it takes to convince your "flock" that the union way is the only way.
That involved telling the troops whatever they wanted to hear, no matter how off center it might be.
Now that I'm on my own, I've looked at being an employer in an entirely different way.
I can tell you too that I'm very glad I made the move!! At least now I can live with my conscience.
One of my Automotive customers is an Asian automaker. Guess who. I would rather deal with them than the North American automakers any day.
I certainly disagree with your assessment. Companies routinely get rid of older workers for several reasons.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
A big international like the UAW, has to have one message to give to all it's members to keep them unified and happy. I'd rather the message be optomistic than negative. The workers deal with enough negativity on the shop floors and don't need that from their union. The Big 3 part of the automobile industry is seeing some of it's worse times. I however believe things are getting better. The SUV/Truck segment has always been a strong point for the big 3 and now some members of Congress want to implement such drastic changes it would certainly do severe damage to the big 3.
Toyota, is also very dependent on Trucks, and SUV's. They make some of the best on the market and not all of em' are just sipping gas. I hope for all party's sakes that they delay the implementation of these unrealistic fuel economy and emissions standards. What I'd like to see is within the next half decade they start to slowly make the improvements to not spring this on the automobile industry.
Rocky
My union background taught me that everybody's different.
Some see things one way, and others see them completely opposite, and then (thank God!) most folks see things as they are.
I also learned that the vocal minority tends to control most outcomes, because they make the most noise.
Most of the time they are totally self serving and don't care about what's right, or what's best best for the majority.
I try to treat my employees as best I can afford. I have profit sharing, and a host of other user friendly things, but it all boils down to economics. I do what I can.
Example: the other day, one of my guys was painting a part outside, and the overspray got on some employee cars.
I paid $200 for each of 10 cars to be fixed, and detailled in and out. Everybody was pleased with that.
Inasmuch as only 40% of my business is automotive, I do have Toyota as a customer; I have spent much time in the Georgetown plant, and it is a great operation.
I don't think you'll find too many employess there complaining, altho' my experience has shown me there will always be some you can't do enough for.
Such is life.
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/calculatorCompareSideBySide.jsp?column=1&id=23936-
2008 Tundra 5.7L auto, 14/18, 16 combined. Compare that to the 2008 Sierra 5.3L auto, 14/19, 16 combined. I think the two will be very close. The Sierra 6L with the same power as the Toyota 5.7L makes 13/17, 15 combined, under the new ratings system.
And that can be compared to the 2008 Ford F-150 5.4L auto, 13/17, 15 combined. And to the 2008 Ram 5.7L auto, 13/19, 15 combined.
Toyota is no fuel economy champ in this segment, but I would say they are right in the middle of the fray...
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
...and you can FORGET the fantasies of two years ago that there would be a hybrid Tundra available within a year of launch...I think that program is well and truly dead, haven't heard anything about it for ages...
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
1. First company to Mass Market a "usable" (sorry Honda Insight) 4-door hybrid sedan in the USA
2. First non-US-based company to COMPLETELY go after the large pickup market that GM/Ford/Dodge have owned for so long.
3. First Japanese automaker to put a $100K+ sedan up against MB and the BMW and the big sedan boys.
4. First non-US-based car company to seriously challenge for the world's #1 automaker.
So there you go. "Scared to buck the status quo" my prodigious booty.....
The LS600HL got a nice review on NPR this afternoon. Whether people will buy it is another question. I think a few Lexus devotees might, and a few rich hybrid fans.
I agree with you that the U.S. is very much a lockstep market, and Toyota has pretty much been right in lockstep with the rest. I do give them credit for continuing multiple small-car offerings when almost no-one else did, and for always making their small cars class leaders in fuel economy (and for making their midsize 4-cylinder offering good enough that 80% of their midsize sales were 4-cylinder, a powertrain with class-leading fuel efficiency). Also, the original Scion line-up was a step away from "lockstep", although the new line-up beginning this year looks like they are falling right back in line. :-(
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I think we are seeing this the same. No real effort on any car company to do anything that would seem anti-competitive. I still remember when Chevy was locked out of racing because no one could beat them. I think Toyota is following a path to avoid any such lock out.
RX400H sales were good, they exceeded Toyota/Lexus sales goals for that model. The wait list was genuine, they were caught flat-footed when it first came out.
The funny thing about Chevy and Toyota is that Toyota has always seemed to try to be the Japanese GM, in its sales and advertising models certainly, and even in its line-ups. There is a difference between the two in corporate philosophy, I would argue (GM being very American in focusing too much on short-term fixes to long-term problems because of the board and stock fluctuations), but apart from that it comes down to rep. The reliability thing won't stand Toyota in good stead forever, as it appears to be slipping and GM appears to be improving.
One area where I wish Toyota would mimic GM more is in the number of sport offerings, although I wish that Toyota would take a different road to sport than GM: instead of taking existing models and adding power, I would like to see them subtract weight and improve handling. That was the formula for some of the great sporty cars in Toyota's past. The only sporty model that was ever fast in a straight line was Supra, but they had lots of other fun sporty models.
Instead, Honda continues to trump them on sport offerings, even as it somehow manages to also offer most of a full line and make good profits. Lesson for Toyota, perhaps? Yes, Toyota, it CAN be done!
I went and took a personal look at some full-size pick-ups the other night. Seems like the domestics still make a model without carpeting. The cheapest Tundra, the one that Toyota calls its work truck, has full carpeting, stereo, A/C, etc. Maybe Toyota would be better off leaving the commercial end of the market to the domestics for now, and just selling double-cab and CrewMax versions. That way they could break into the retail large-truck market first.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Hybrids aren't the problem, market expectations are the problem. And Toyota/Lexus strategy maybe a problem as well!
Tundra has the best powertrain in the class. If that is a small achievemment, hopefully the domestics can come up just as small.
As you were properly corrected, Toyota/Lexus currently sells 4 hybrids, 3 are successful. The 600h will be successful as a halo car alone. Everyone who comes through the door on it will walk out with an LS.
Lexus makes more on a pimped-out 460L anyway, so they won't cry if you "settle" for a $90k 460.
DrFill
When you say best do you mean most HP or best fuel economy? I want a 1/2 ton truck that gets 30 MPG. So I look at it as a failure. It does not have the most powerful engine nor the best engine for economy. So where is it the best? GM beats it on both ends. And GM is far from what I consider great.
Not to mention the Tundra is butt ugly.
PS
The new Silverado blows the new Tundra away on all aspects of crash tests including rollover.
I don't think so, because 4 vs. 5 stars in the frontal NHTSA test is no big deal, seriously. I know the public doesn't realize this.
What is the difference in rollover ratings?
I say, wait till the IIHS frontal offset and side impact tests.
Great run in the 90s regarding reliability? Well, so far my 2004 and '05 Camrys have been stellar in this regard, but it's admittedly too early for a definitive judgment.
Styling is subjective, but all of the large trucks have too-large grilles and emblems, IMO. I prefer a more understated look, but that ain't gonna happen with pickups, whose owners like the "macho" in-your-face look.
Have folks ever wonder why the Asian markets (elite) will pay almost expotentially more for German cars; with its correspondingly poor reliability; in stark contrast with the now legendary Asian high reliability? Yes you got it, different assumptions.
To me anymore BMW's look like Camry's and Camry's look like BMW's!????
I prefer the clean lines of the pre 2002 Chevy PU trucks. I think change for the sake of change is bad. Dodge started that ugly gross grill look. Ford followed and Toyota being the copy cats that they are did the same. Chevy went a little different with less of a radical grill. Still not esthetically pleasing. NOt all of us feel that way. I have a neighbor with a Titan and Armada. I cannot understand what he sees in either vehicle. Horrible looking monstrocities.
Keep your 2004 and 05 Camrys. They are superior to the new ones. My cousin bought a 2007 XLE V6. Says it is not the car her older Camry is. Leaves the new one in the garage. She does not like the handling on the new one. Plus claims it is not as fast.
OTOH, my '90 Sable's front rotors warped before 20K miles.
BIGGEST volume and % recalls in auto HISTORY
That's a big claim -- do you have the stats to back it up? How big was the Chevrolet engine mount recall of the early 70s? What about the Ford cruise control/fire recall (still ongoing)? And the Ford ignition switch recall?
Yes, being Number ONE makes you a big target. I think GM may be relieved to give that big Zero to Toyota. Honda and Toyota have proven you can make money when you are not on top. Maybe GM will learn the art of building cars and making money again.
Well, that's merely one person's opinion, not a FACT.
If it's "not as fast" that must mean Toyota gave it a smaller engine, which flies in the face of your "Toyota is just going for HORSEPOWER" argument.
In fact, she's incorrect if she thinks the 2005 XLE V6 is faster:
2005 XLE V6: 210 hp, 220 fpt
2007 XLE V6: 268 hp, 248 fpt
And I don't believe for one minute that build quality on the Camry has declined in the last 2 years.
In four years, when we have owner's data on the cars, let's take a look and see which cars score higher.
3 stars for rollover is pretty typical for trucks and SUVs. Relatively few get 4 stars, and these tend to be the newer, lower car-based types. For cars, 4 stars is the norm, with very few getting the top mark of 5 stars.
I will repeat. Better keep those pre 2007 Camrys. They may be the last of the good ones for the foreseeable future.
No infighting for sales, no starving brands to satisfy others.
Seriously, they have more money than god right now and if they throw enough at the issues that they were having, they'll be back on track. As of last year, Toyotas recalls were still half of GM's, and was well ahead of Ford and Chrysler so the cieling isn't exactly caving in on them...
The ignition switch problem is also faily recent, and was problematic because cars could stall without warning -- my in-laws had one such car ('94 Sable) with this problem. The engine mount issue, while long ago, caused throttle linkages to jam when the mounts failed, often when the cars made left turns. Not a good thing. There were crashes; I don't remember if there were deaths, but certainly there were injuries.
The Toyota steering issue killed no one -- there was ONE crash in Japan in which there were injuries. This is the same issue where 3 managers were investigated (not jailed as some have claimed) for not reporting problems to their superiors. This has been exaggerated into saying deaths occurred, etc. We've discussed this before. The vehicles involved were 1989-96s, not recent models. Toyota recalled them long after they were legally required to.
I haven't looked into the rollover details, I'll admit, but one thing the Tundra has going for it is standard ESC, which should reduce the frequency of rollover in actual use.
On that note, it'll be interesting to compare the trucks' crash records in the real world, but that'll take a few years.
Now, I must really get back to work...be back this evening!
My jaw has dropped as I have heard about the deaths and cover-ups related to the old Prados. In fact, there were no criminal charges for anyone, there were no deaths, and the one Prado that crashed in Asia because of a bad tie rod was almost 15 years old at the time.
The law did not require Toyota to recall vehicles as old as these, yet it did anyway, at no small expense to itself. As a result, my 17-year-old 4Runner with a quarter million miles got free new tie rods. I guess the old ones were faulty, huh?!
Obviously the first quarter does not necessarily secure Toyota's spot as #1 global carmaker, but it appears this may be the year. And I do think they need to make a priority of getting and then keeping quality under control. I WAS encouraged to see that my new Matrix is much better built than the one I had five years ago (long story!). No rattles or squeaks, which was a problem in many new Toyota cars around 2002-2003.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
The Chevrolet motor mount recall affected V-8 Chevrolets built between 1965-69. ALL V-8 equipped Chevrolet cars (except the Corvette, if I recall correctly) were recalled, so it was huge, given Chevy's volume at that time. And, yes, there were fatalities.
It was a big deal at the time. I was still in grade school, but I remember my parents talking about taking our 1965 Chevrolet Bel Air wagon in for replacement motor mounts.
As an aside, I don't remember the quality of that car being all that impressive. Our 1967 Oldsmobile Delmont 88 - bought used from a neighbor - seemed like a giant step in quality and reliability. The Chevy was shot at 100,000 miles, while the Oldsmobile was still going strong at 110,000 miles when my parents traded it for a slightly used 1976 Delta 88 Royale hardtop sedan.
WASHINGTON May 17, 2005; Ken Thomas writing for the AP reported that Toyota Motor Corp., in one of its largest safety recalls ever, said Tuesday it is recalling more than 750,000 pickup trucks and sport utility vehicles because of problems with the front suspension that could hinder steering.
The company said the recall covers 774,856 vehicles in the United States, including the 2001-2004 model years of the Tacoma, the 2001-2002 versions of the 4Runner and the 2002-2004 model years of the Tundra and Sequoia.
Here is the world wide recall of nearly a million vehicles. Not the same steering problem and it included 170,000 Prius.
WASHINGTON - Toyota Motor Corp. said Tuesday it is recalling nearly 1 million vehicles across the globe to replace faulty parts that could cause drivers to lose control of the steering wheel.
The recall affects about 986,000 vehicles across 10 models, including its popular Prius hybrid car. More than half of the affected vehicles are in Japan, company officials said.
The intermediate shafts and sliding yokes in the recalled cars lack the necessary strength and could distort or crack under strong pressure, causing drivers to lose control of the steering wheel, the Japanese automaker said in a statement.
In the United States, Toyota is recalling about 170,000 Prius models because the steering shaft assembly could become loose or crack under certain conditions.
"I deeply apologize for the concerns we caused our customers and for the delayed explanations on the issue," Masatami Takimoto told reporters after submitting a report on the defect in Toyota Hilux Surf sport utility vehicles to the transport ministry.
People living in Japan are not fooled by Toyota. Typical comment on Japan Today.
Toyota execs aint sorry for nuthin but the fact they got caught ! This is more than just about "causing concerns" to the public. This is about integrity, ethics, and morals ! Ol Takimoto better have a better line than this crap... it reeks of smarminess and arrogance. Lets hope the big three jump all over this state side... put the hurt on Toyota, strike while the iron is hot ! Again... after 8, and probably many more, years of bold faced lies and manipulated data... you'd have to be a moron to buy a Toyota. Can't wait to get back to the states and visit the Toyota dealerships. They always have those consumer comment cards at the desk.
You know the Sierra and Silverado have bigger engines with less power, and fewer gears. You know the 6.0 is inferior. That's not a secret anymore.
If you're waiting for 30MPG in a full-size, I guess you are not a buyer, you're a dreamer. :surprise:
DrFill
drfill >I'd appreciate it if you didn't lie to these people, and say GM has a better powertrain
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Yes I have been dreaming that we would get what the rest of the world has had for decades. A PU truck that gets great mileage. A Mid sized Diesel PU truck.
Toyota sells more cars than GM for first time ever
Apr. 24, 2007 10:20 AM
TOKYO - For the first time ever, Toyota sold more vehicles globally in a quarter than General Motors, preliminary January-March figures show, the clearest sign yet that the Japanese company is on track to overtake its U.S. rival as the world's top automaker.
Toyota Motor Corp.'s success is fueled by robust demand for its reliable, fuel-efficient models, including the Camry, Corolla, Yaris and gas-electric hybrid Prius.