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Comments
Agreed. Where I live (NYC metro area), these people gravitate toward the 3-series convertible equipped with automatic.
But a properly equipped sedan - sports package & 6-speed stick - is one of the most involving & entertaining drives available. And the latest Audis are catching up.
The Asians still haven't figured it out, although I'll give Infiniti some credit for its G sedan & coupe. I'd pick one of those if, for some sad reason, I simply had to buy an Asian car.
Unfortunately, Audi has been dropping the 3 pedal setup for most of it's lineup since the introduction of the DSG.
BMW will probably be the last of the Germans who will offer manual trannies and even then it'll be found in probably 3 models, the 1, the 3 and the Z4. Audi and Merc (if they even count anymore) manual equipped cars will be a distant memory...
Audi's website shows that the A4, S4 & S5 for 2011 can all be had with 6-speed sticks.
"Toyota has reached an out-of-court settlement with relatives of a family killed when the Lexus sedan they were driving sped out of control and crashed, an accident that put a national spotlight on the sudden acceleration problems that later prompted the automaker to recall millions of vehicles."
You missed these important excerpts:
the lawsuit against the dealer had not been dropped
Investigators found that a wrong-sized floor mat that trapped the accelerator caused the crash.
Remember, the same thing happened to Bernard, in the same car. This was negligence by the dealer.
And before anyone shouts about spin or bias, this report is from the Detroit News, possibly the most pro-domestic paper in the country.
If I was shopping for a 3er, I'd probably look most at the 335d. The new 5 and 7 look promising too...I do like cars of those sizes. I'd probably pick Infiniti over Lexus too, aside from an IS-F.
Subaru has come a loooooooooong way. They haven't even sold FWD since 1995. Galvanized steel means they no longer rust before the fuel tank is empty, and nowadays they have the clearance so they're great in snow.
Remember - the family is still going after the dealer.
The real money is in punitive damages, and the negligence really came from the dealer who put the wrong mat in that loaner car.
G35? The new M? IS-F? GT-R? WRX STI? EVO? LF-A? Miata? Genesis coupe?
Nothing? C'mon now....
If you ask me, sure the Germans build great cars, but they got scared and retreated upmarket in terms of price. They really don't offer much that's under $30 grand, maybe even $40 grand.
At down-to-earth pricing, you're much better off with a domestic (Mustang, Camaro, Challenger, G8, Charger, EcoBoost Taurus) or Asian (widebody WRX, EVO, Miata, etc.).
What $30 grand (new) German car would you buy? No FWD allowed.
Ummm..
umm...
A FWD Audi is like non-alcoholic beer, and the A3 is now an old Golf clone.
A 1 series would pretty much have to be a stripped 128i model. Too small, only 2 doors, dorky looking, and the 135i would push $40 grand.
Mini are FWD and a MazdaSpeed3 would beat you around the track.
Benz? Entry-level C classes are weaksauce.
What can you get for around $30 grand, an above-average budget, from Germany that is truly sporty?
Cost no object, Germany does great. When you factor in cost, for most folks they can't even make the short list.
A bare-bones 135i with only the M sport package and nothing else, if you can find one, retails for more than $38 grand. Stripped, mind you. TMV is $36,494, and this is basically a sub-compact 2 door with a tiny back seat.
Want a sedan that can seat 4 adults? 335i with just the M sport package will set you back $45,224, with a TMV a hair under $43 grand. Go American and get a CTS for that price and get more space than a 5 series to boot. Or buy a G35 and a jet ski with the change.
I tested an A4 2.0T without the dynamic suspension and it was lame. Brake drive, squat, and nearly as much body roll as my minivan, so a base Audi isn't gonna cut it either. Go price a Quattro with the V6 and the dynamic suspension option - same problem.
Perhaps the reason you're disappointed with the selection from Asia (or America) is because you're comparing cars in the $22-35k range to cars that cost $37-43 grand.
Or another common trick from Germany - compare much smaller German cars with similarly priced competitors. That erases the huge cost disadvantage and further handicaps American/Asian competitors with extra weight.
Let's face it - at some price cutoff, perhaps around $35-40 grand or so, you're better off non-German below that price.
I'll pretend that I didn't see "(new)" & suggest a CPO 328i sedan. I'd look for one with a stick & the sports package. Nothing else.
Admittedly, this won't be easy to find, particularly where I live: the greater metro NYC area. When I bought my new 330i, I had to place a factory order & wait for almost 3 months to get a stick. But it's worth looking for.
I agree with your assessment of the Mercedes C & FWD Audis. (I wouldn't buy a Mercedes if I couldn't afford an E-class.) But the MSRP for a new Audi A4 with quattro & 6-speed stick is $32,850, which isn't too far over your $30K limit. And that's before you do some hard bargaining.
I think that I'd prefer a CTS to just about anything out of Asia, with the possible exception of the G37. The Caddy is better looking & probably more entertaining to drive than any of its Asian competitors - again, with the possible exception of the Infiniti G.
In fact, the CTS is on my short list of possible BMW replacements, when I next go into the market (which won't be before next year).
So maybe Yamaha and Toyota will continue that mutually beneficial relationship for an optional engine for the FT-86. My bet is they will just use Subaru's turbo 2.0 already in use in the home market (can you say WRX? Now subtract 700 pounds and 2 drive wheels and imagine how fast it might be. ;-)).
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I'd just driven these at the BMW Ultimate Driving event, a bunch of base/automatic AWD sedans - a Bimmer vs. Audi 2.0 Quattro vs. Lexus IS 250 AWD vs. Benz C300 4Matic.
Of course they always stack it in their own favor, for instance the Lexus was the IS250, and now you can get an IS350 in AWD, and for about BMW money.
Any how, the Bimmer was the only sporty one there. The Benz and Lexus were soft, and the Audi was surprisingly disappointing. Lots of turbo lag with the auto, plus dive and squat, body roll, ... it really wasn't any fun at all. Dunno if BMW disconnected the sway bars or what, but I swear the Lexus was easier to handle around the tight autocross.
A year or two ago I went to an Audi event at Summit Point, and the funny thing is they had basically the same lineup of cars, except they used an A4 V6 instead. Even though it was competitor base engines vs. Audi's upgrade V6, they argued it was about the same price as the BMW, and at the time Lexus didn't have the IS350 AWD.
So they run these events with the odds stacked in their favor. In that test I liked the Audi and the BMW, roughly even, but I had to remind myself I was driving roughly $40,000+ compact sedans.
Yes, when equipped properly, both Audis and Bimmers are fun, but you're also paying more than double the price of a similarly sized Civic EX or Corolla XRS, so it's not really fair to either of those to compare.
I'd like to see what the Germans can give us in RWD for $25k, though. When the 1 series came, instead of giving us a modern-day 2002, they simply let it occupy the price point of the last 3 series and pushed the 3 series even higher up the price scale.
I'd be shopping CPO too!
To be fair, Toyota owns 5% of Yamaha.
FWIW, I like a lot of what I'm hearing but if the FT86 really goes on sale for under $22k I'll buy ya lunch next time you come to the DC area.
And iluv, there is no WAY you are getting those rims from Toyota at the base price, no matter what they said about the concept's exterior being true to production. Just no WAY.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Don't expect to get these seats.
And those rims are nice but I'd be very content with rims like my '08 Lancer GTS has. Decontenting is Toyota's mantra. I realize this. I can dig that and really, it's about the bodystyle ta me. I know Toyota is really working hard on this car and Subaru is supplying the drivetrain, what I've been reading lately is they're saying that it will be a boxer motor from Subaru producing 160-170hp. 6-speed stick is the standard tranny, which suits me to a tee.
Guys, it's not about the same Rockford Fosgate 650-watt stereo with 10-inch subwoofer in the truck that my '08 Lancer GTS has. Really. Courage. Courage. Everyone. Courage. Courage. Everyone.
It's about a carmaker that wants to stretch back to the glory sporty days of the Celica Supra supreme. People like me, myself and Irene have been lambashing them for years for wussing out in the sporty department. The Germans are a joke at making sporty cars. My Lancer could run circles all over and around an Audi A4 in it's sportiest getup. Please. Take a longer toke if you need, but please, people, try ta keep up with me here. Sheesh-are-reeses-pieces.
It's all Japanese now for slick and sporty and once this 2012 Toyota Celica comes out it will be the fastest thing out there. I mean, within reach of the average working pig out there.
It's all Mitsubishi and Toyota friends. Subaru's are ugly as hell but I do respect their carriage works ala engine and tranny's to go. Bring 'em on. And if the Oklahoma City Thunder go further in the playoffs this season they can thank all the hard workers of the Seattle Supersonic basketball organization. The NBA and David Stern owe the great city of Seattle a viable NBA team. The NBA front office ought to finance the building of a new stadium for Seattle, too. What a farce. But I can digress with da best of 'um.
This car is an earth mover and a change dialecter that will forever alter the appetite and face of the modern automobile movement. Mitsubishi has what it takes to compete and if my local Toyota dealer won't play nice with me in Nov. of 2011 and offer fair trade-in value for our 2008 Mitsubishi Lancer GTS I'll just look at them and tell them I have to go, to be able to keep a great car like my Lancer GTS from model year 2008 would be a privilege and an honor. If they play this snotty German crap and act like since it's a Toyota I should bow down and kiss their shoes then there will be no 2012 Toyota Celica for me.
No soup for you, compadres. Oh, this car is designed at the Nice, France Toyota design facility. So we can't play America vs. Japan vs.Germany vs. China thing here, now can we? Does it make you wonder who is inside designing the 2012 Toyota Celica, fellow car nuts? What country do they come from and just who do they represent?
Hey, pass me that 'World Container' Tragically Hip CD, Johnnie, pour yourself another Margarita, salt the top 'a the glass and turn up the Canadian rock and roll. We're on a mission here. Yeee-haaaaaaaaaaaaa! Watch out for that elk standing partly in the road and partly off da road!
Oh, and if the 2012 Toyota Celica base red 4-dr. RWD 6-speed with an average stereo and power w's, l's and m's is a penny above $21,000 in Nov. of 2011, it's my wife and I and our 2008 Mitsubishi Lancer GTS for another 4 years or so. Tell me where I'm missing out from having something wonderful here?
For Seattle to get another NBA franchise, now you're stinking up a stronger herd and coming up with something worth talking about. Getting Babwa-Wa-Wa to just leave TV for good, Seattle to get an NBA franchise, Lady Gaga to be told she's pretty close to talent-less, Katy Perry to go in to reality TV and slap young men silly, and electrically-propelled 2012 Toyota Celica's to light up all of our lives. Yep.
The Germans have some of you high on the nasty, intoxicating aroma of their interior shading materials. VW is really thinking No. 1 in the world by the year 2018? Cough*Cough** I hear Wal*Mart calling you, VW, you're not what you think you really are.
Smoke what you need, pop what you need or drink what you need, if that's what you all need. But try and keep up wid me here, car nuts. :shades:
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
Oh and yes, they have "improved" it by giving all but the GLI models the first NON-independent rear suspensions they have ever used in that model!
When the "U.S spec" midsize comes out next year, which I call the Passat but who knows maybe they will be too ashamed to give it that name, we will see "Cheap" Mark II at VW dealers, and wonder where the VW of old has gone. Well, nobody bought the VWs of old, so the new VW aint your father's Volkswagen (those were better).
But all of this, of course, comes straight from the Toyota playbook, circa 1995ish (except perhaps the powertrains, they were fairly competitive until Y2K or so).
It's a really good thing Subaru is doing all the mechanicals for the FT-86.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
2012 Toyota Celica...uhhh...I mean 2012 Toyota FT-86
Look at that car straight-on and tell me that you really think that Toyota is wanting to change the bodystyle. Ta suit who? Mr. Magoo?
Dig it. It's like turning on AC/DC's 'Shot Down In Flames' to 10 on a loudness scale of 10 and just letting the music soothe the wild beast within.
It's a really good thing Subaru is doing all the mechanicals for the FT-86.
Amen, bro.
This is really automotive pleasure at it's best going down here, gentlemen. I am challenging Toyota to try and top my 2008 Mitsubishi Lancer GTS. No one else can even come close ta the challenge. I will run circles silly around you. Oope--I mean Mitsubishi will run silly circles around you. Really, if my local Toyota dealer won't play nice with me then I'll play my best Donald Trump and get up and walk. Think Clark Howard with a Drive-By Truckers t-shirt on instead. This is what it's all about. Whoo-hooo! This car changes the rules.
Period.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
I kind of like the looks of the FT86 from certain angles. Not enough to consider one for my garage. If it did not get hung up on my driveway, it would fall into the potholes that the stimulus did not fix. There is not a chance it will weigh 2000 lbs and sell for $21k. To sell for that price the materials will be cheap and it will weigh closer to 2800 lbs. Toyota will not make it cheaper than a Scion tC. The base tC with alloy wheels and a 5 speed has a TMVof about $22,000 before TTL. And it weighs a porky 2900 lbs. You read too much into the Toyota hype. Save your money and sell your Mitsu on Craigslist. Your gonna need $30k to get one out the door.
Then I'll buy ya both lunch, LOL.
Actually I bet that would be a lot of fun.
As for the FT-86, you have to de-concept-car-ize it to imagine what a production model will look like. The interior ought to change more than the exterior.
PS
I must be getting old, nothing much smites me in the vehicle world these days.
Ah, yes, the old 2.slow...
110hp, right? What were they thinking? 110hp from 2 liters? That has to be the record lowest specific output (HP/liter).
they have "improved" it by giving all but the GLI models the first NON-independent rear suspensions
Details? Are they using a torsion beam axle?
Twist beams actually have some packaging advantages. They're OK when packaging is a priority over handling, for instance in a minivan or people carrier. They are compact and don't intrude in to the cargo area.
I think VW gave up and basically said they would bring lower prices and bigger interior to the USA.
Let's keep in mind these will be in different classes.
The GTS competes with the Impreza 2.5i (or perhaps the discontinued 2.5RS), just as we see WRX vs. Ralliart, and STI vs. EVO.
I don't see the FT-86 in that class. It's more likely to compete with sport coupes like the Mitsu Eclipse, or more recently the Hyundai Genesis coupe. The old Celica and Prelude were priced much higher than the Corolla and Civic, for instance. Even now a Lancer GTS starts at $18,990 while the Eclipse is $20,699 (plus freight for both). The Genesis coupe is a good $6 grand more than an Elantra Touring, but they had to go to a RWD platform (a la FT-86).
So figure at least $1700-6000 more than a Corolla XRS to start. That's a pretty wide range. Let's see...$18,860 plus 750 freight for the XRS.
That would leave a potential price range of $21,310 if you're an optimist like iluv, up to $25,610 if you're skeptical, like myself.
Let's just say I hope you're right, and I am wrong. :shades:
http://www.autoblog.com/2010/09/20/toyota-drops-in-best-global-brands-rankings-s- till-top-auto-bran/
the company had built so much room that it could fall some ways and still be on top, sliding from eight to 11, just ahead of Mercedes at number 12. Interbrand said that while Toyota's problems were exacerbated by the way the company is set up, it hasn't been hurt as much as some would have thought and it has proven its resilience over the decades
Of course you are.
I sure don't see anything in this interior that expensive looking. Are ya starting to see how the base 2012 Toyota Celica could sell for $20,995 now? With the body shown here, RWD, 6-speed stick, power w's, l's and m's, competent stereo. Right in the ballpark of $20,995 to perhaps $21,995. I would go up to $21,995 for one of these, providing the two parties could agree on my trade-in.
http://www.caranddriver.com/features/10q1/2012_toyota_ft86_subaru_0846-feature
The target is just above $20,000, so Toyota and Subaru will face tough competition from V-6 versions of the Chevy Camaro and the Ford Mustang, along with the Miata and the Hyundai Genesis coupe. But if Toyota’s and Subaru’s sports cars manage to keep curb weights well below 3000 pounds and combine the dynamics of a Miata with stunning looks, they both just might have hits on their hands.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
Details? Are they using a torsion beam axle?
You got it, tried and true torsion beam, solid rear, and I'm sure that it is to "bring lower prices and bigger interior to the USA" just as you said.
The interior also gets harder and cheaper for 2011.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
But that new bodystyle is undeniably sexy. Whoa. The car will be RWD, light, and a drifter's dream. Enter old western music and Clint Eastwood.
I don't know guys, these seats might indeed be the production seats for a year from now. From the interview with an actual design employee from the Toyota Design Center in Nice, France, the interviewer asks him if everything is ready and what we see is what we'll get. The Toyota design employee answered yes. Fine with me, those seats look awesome. I wouldn't absolutely need to have them but they're indeed growing on me with each passing automotive day.
Check out that small backseat area. I will be buying the 4-dr. sedan, so my rear seat passengers better not be frequent buffet buyers.
The spiritual predecessor to the 2012 Celica, the AE86 Corolla, is shown
here behind the new beauty from Toyota
The dash may change in production form, though the employee from
Toyota was mum about it...biggest indicator for change though was right here
I'll try to find out more about any changes to come, right now what we see is what we're gonna get. He said that this concept is very, very, very close to reality as we see it now. They started around mid-2008 working on this car and they are all very excited about what they have created. That steering wheel looks hot, I love it. :shades:
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
Toyota has registered FR-S in the U.S. It stands for front engine, rear wheel drive, sports car. This may indeed be the car's name for the U.S. and Canada.
Here's some engine particulars working in tandem with Subaru.
The FT-86 rides on a modified Subaru Impreza platform, has a low center of gravity (engine placement) and is a rear wheel drive hatchback. It has a 2.0 liter horizontally opposed boxer engine (naturally aspirated with direct injection) mated to a Subaru 6-speed manual transmission.
http://www.tune86.com/ft-86-content/toyota-ft-86-concept-and-ft-86-g-sports-conc- - - ept-technical-facts
Height: 1,260 mm (49.6 in) The car is low-slung
Tires:: Bridgestone Potenza RE050A
Base color: shoujyouhi red (with hint of blue)
The vehicle was unveiled in 2009 Tokyo Motor Show.
The concept is fitted with brakes from Advics, a joint venture company formed between Aisin Seiki, Denso, Sumitomo Electric and Toyota.
According to chief engineer Tetsuya Tada, the unique shoujyouhi red colour was based on the colour of a Japanese monkey's backside.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
Redesign rumors FALSE? Q&A Jaromir Cech, Toyota FT-86 designer
The Toyota FT-86 concept will be a production reality by 2012, arriving in the UK with a target price of less than £20,000 for the entry level model.
To find out more about the car, which rumours suggest will be formally confirmed for production at the upcoming Geneva motor show, Autocar sent Steve Sutcliffe to meet its designer, Jaromir Cech.
What was the design brief for the car?
The first ideas we had came after some feedback we got from the engineering people. They told us they’d been testing this car, and that it drove just like a go-kart on the track. And so we thought, ‘Well, we need to make a car that looks like it drives like a go-kart.’
So when did you first start designing it?
A little over two years ago, since when the idea has been refined, obviously, but still with those same themes at the centre: driver focus, purity of form and functional beauty.
Were there any influences apart from the original rear-drive Corolla?
The Corolla represents a lot of the FT’s basic design influence, but really there are a number of cars that we looked at, from the Supra to the original MR2.
You were primarily responsible for the interior; which bits are you most proud of, and which aspect do you think will make it into production?
I’m proud of the interior. It’s deliberately extremely driver-orientated and contains quite a few fresh ideas, especially within the modular dash design.
I’m not sure whether the zips idea for the doorbins will make it into production — it may prove too difficult to mass-produce — but I hope one day we’ll see something like it in a production Toyota because it’s a simple but also functional solution.
And like I say, that’s the key design theme for the whole car: functional beauty. That came right from the very top.
This is interesting, it's from Steve Sutcliffe.
Steve Sutcliffe about the FT-86
In the metal, says Sutcliffe, the charm of the FT-86 is achingly apparent. For starters, it's no more than two-thirds of the size you'd expect it to be. The Audi TT - not a big car - dwarfs it.
Beyond that, the most striking aspect of the car is how low the bonnet line is and how snugly the whole car seems to hug the ground as a result. This is because the engine is derived from Subaru's famous flat-four 2.0-litre 'boxer' unit.
Senior Toyota designer Cech estimates than the bonnet is around 100mm lower than it would be with a conventional four-cylinder engine in place, but cautions: "It won't be quite as low for the production car. Unfortunately, we have to raise it maybe 50mm to meet pedestrian crash protection legislation."
Mechanically, the car is fairly conventional. Suspension is probably wishbones at the front and almost certainly multi-link at the rear, transmission a six-speed manual and the chassis conventional rear-wheel drive.
What will make it special, claims Toyota, is the ultra-light kerb weight, which may be as low as 1250kg in production trim, its purity of response, its handling agility and the fact it will have a proper limited slip differential. :surprise:
Another distinguishing feature will be its interior, and in particular its dashboard, which may even include software that provides data acquisition for a host of circuits.
Sutcliffe concludes that the FT-86 is a deadly serious attempt to take a slice of the lucrative affordable coupe market , as well as recapture and repackage the DNA that made Toyota's cars so popular in the past. "The sooner it goes into production, the better," he says.
1250kg=2,750 lbs. Wow-now that is lightweight! Another plus-point for this car. I feel that it will be funner to drive being more lightweight, and actually easier to navigate through the snow being RWD as it is. Better control. It will be done by going slower (and employing limited slip-differential) and controlling the steering aspect like Toyota has designed the car, with small, steady steering snippets, and the 6-speed tranny will also help with control in the snow. Great news-this car is looking more and more, as research continues, like one that I will pursue for purchase.
I love the speaker in the door swoosh design here
Hey, Toyota, leave that steering wheel design as it is in production, OK? I love it's design ergonomics! I want to feel it right now, in my Elko bedroom.
Is this whole thing reaching a different level now? Anyone else thinking that? Or is it just me?
Right in front of the rear wheelwell...is that some kind of side marker light?
I'm all over that.
I love the dual exhausts as well.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
Since last year, we’ve been hearing about a new sports car from Toyota and Subaru that will be priced around $20,000 and would give the two brands something to be proud about. However, both automakers were very good at keeping their upcoming sports coupe out of way of spy photographer lenses and never really talked much to the media about it in terms of when it will be available or what it would be called. In fact, the car’s nickname eventually became “Toyobaru,” which to say the least, we hated.
http://www.egmcartech.com/2009/10/06/toyota-ft-86-concept-first-look-at-toyota-a- - - - - - nd-subarus-rwd-coupe/
Toyota and Fuji Heavy plan to have the FT-86 on the roads by 2011. Subaru will get its own version of the car. Prices are expected to start around 3 million yen ($33,700 USD) in Japan and around $20,000 in the United States.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
Well, it seems like Subaru doesn’t really care anymore. Reports coming out of Japan say that Subaru may drop the idea of offering an all-wheel-drive version of the Toyota FT-86 altogether due to added cost involved with the conversion from rear-wheel-drive to all-wheel-drive.
We’re guessing that means the only difference between the Toyota FT-86 and Subaru’s version will be the design.
Apparently the costs of changing out the driveline to AWD will be too high so Subie's version of the 2012 FT-86 will stay RWD.
http://www.egmcartech.com/2010/03/12/report-subaru-ditches-all-wheel-drive-plans- -for-its-version-of-toyota-ft-86/
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
I must be getting old, nothing much smites me in the vehicle world these days.
Man, if this baby doesn't get yer motor runnin' I don't know what will. I am already imagining enjoying long drives through the Nevada landscape, maybe over to Yosemite National Park. I need ta see that Park.
From a new online article...
The three-spoke steering wheel features a flat bottom for a sporty touch, while there’s the now mandatory engine start/stop button.
The FT-86 will be a much-needed model for Toyota, a brand that has been searching for an image boost after discontinuing its most exciting products in recent years – the Supra, MR2 and Celica.
http://www.smh.com.au/executive-style/motors/ft86-toyotas-sports-car-revealed-20- - - - - - - 091013-guxy.html
This would be my first car with an engine start-stop button. Hadn't even thought of that. The 2010 Suzuki Kizashi I test drove over in Vegas had that engine start-stop button. I don't see the big need for one of these but, oh well. Bring it on.
Here's the natural lead-in to going 4-doors here from Toyota.
Toyota says the FT-86 is a five-seater, unusual for a coupe.
Well, do you get it? Toyota was planning from the beginning to possibly build 4-dr. FR-S sedans.
The mostly grey interior looks more concept than production car, though. A strong hexagonal theme dominates the FT-86’s dash, notably the air vents and rear-view mirror.
And the following I think is really smart on both Subie and Toyo's part...
Toyota paid about $320m in 2008 to double its stake from 8.7 to 16.5 per cent in Subaru’s parent company Fuji Heavy Industries when the sports car collaboration was first announced.
There was speculation the project was delayed by the financial crisis, though the joint development should significantly reduce production costs for both parties.
Bingo! I really perked my own ears up when Toyota announced a 4-door FR-S. And also, of course, when they said that the cost will be right around the $20,000 mark. If the car does cost $20,000 well then that will be a bargain. My wife will need to know that...yes. :P It's cool that I know how ta drive stick, the automatic trannied FR-S will no doubt cost another $1,000.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
Tyres are Potenza RE050 245/40R19 at the front and 275/35R19 at the rear.
And the all-important motor information.
Toyota-Subaru "D-4S"
2.0 Liter NA DI horizontally opposed
(Flat-4 Boxer engine)
http://www.tune86.com/ft-86-content/toyota-ft-86-concept-and-ft-86-g-sports-conc- - - - - - ept-technical-facts
I must fit Toyota's particulars for the 4-dr. sedan because this is exacly the engine size I want. I still want good gas mileage and this 2.0L 4-cyl boxer should deliver pretty good gas mileage. With the 6-speed manual transmission and all. I would deliver a guess for you if want me to. I am gonna guess this pup will deliver about 36mpg with the 6-speed manual getup. Good business case ta build it information there. I tend to be smart about not overdoing throttle tap, too, and so that is how I come up with this figure. Excellent, top drawer, Kensington.
This is the most hatchy-coupey look at the car I've seen yet
Incidentally, a lot of you probably know this, but the reason for the low $20,000 price for the 2012 Toyota FR-S is to attract younger buyers. Makes sense, I'll just benefit from that reasoning, too, even though I am not one of those younger buyers.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
It has its nice angles. Just when I get down to buying, practicality always wins over frivolity. I also like to have room in a vehicle for stuff. Sports cars are so limited. I loved the first Miata. When I watched some dude trying to get his new computer monitor into the front seat, I lost the desire. If I did buy a sports car it would have to be able to retain its value over many years. Think Mini, Porsche, Ferrari. The FT86 may be better than some. Just not good enough. I am trying to imagine why Toyota would haul the FT86 and sell them in the USA for $20k when they are going on the market in the UK for $31k USD and Japan for $33k USD. Or is it a case of loss leader to get people back into the Toyota stores?
If you are going to Yosemite, make it as late in the fall as you can. After the maddening crowds. I was there for the first snowfall a few years back and it was still bumper to bumper. Though the back roads across to the Eastern Sierras would be a great place to try out a cars handling.
Those seats look just goofy too, I can't imagine those making production. The interior will have to be toned down a lot...although I suspect the exterior is pretty close.
Still can't warm up to cars that leer or have goofy faces.
And 20K pounds is over 30 grand...of course, UK prices include tax, but still.
Yeah, I do believe that Toyota has received feedback about this car and people love its bodystyle. But Mr.Toyoda doesn't want to lose the U.S. marketplace participation and he knows how popular the mid 80's Corolla AE86 was. And this car will be the best car ever produced for drifting. Who usually does the drifting lingo? Young people. So Mr. Toyoda wants to keep a bare bones FT-86 available in the U.S. for around $20,000. They're going to be really smart if they do keep the low end right around $20,000. He remembers of course when Toyota has put out some affordable and sporty cars and he made a remark in my reading last night where he mentions specifically that this fact makes him sad they don't provide that any more. So he had the ED2 group begin working on this car. That was in mid-2008! The Chief Designer said they had it nailed by August of 2009!
Yeah, those seats are starting to grow on me but there's a slim chance they'll make production. I like how they slant upwards at one's thigh level.
About the tires. I really think Toyota will drop to 18" tires for production FT-86's. What is being shown now is the concept model, of course. I would really be surprised if they stay with 19" tires in production. I'm getting used to how this new model introduction game works by now.
To me this face is inviting and quite sporty...don't know if those thin slanty lines inside the headlights will remain in production models of this baby
This Mazda 3 has a leering, goofy fash
Once Toyota releases a name I want 2012 Toyota FR-S t-shirts, keychains and I really want a metal model of this pup. Bad. This car changes my perception of Toyota completely. I was wondering when the sleeping corporate giant would wake up and realize that they once made desirable, sporty cars available for the masses. It was apparently lost on making a huge profit.
The last model Celica and the Scion tC were partly there. I test drove a 2005 Scion tC RS 1.0 in Absolutely Red over in Idaho Falls in early 2006. It was cold out, and I was really going to trade in for a 2006 Scion xA, not the tC. But both cars were fun to drive and even the xA had a solid, well-put together feel. The shifter was a couple of steps up above our 2001 Kia Sportage 4X4's. I wanted the car.
My wife took a look at the brochure for the 2006 Polar White Scion xA in 5-speed and foglight form and basically laughed. The 2012 Toyota FR-S in 6-speed base from, decent stereo, power w's, l's and m's has already been confirmed to come in at around $20,000 and the dealer is in Elko, NV, about a half mile from the hospital I work at.
There is no Mitsubishi dealer in Elko and the closest one is in Twin Falls, ID, which is about 229 miles north. We are isolated and for the convenience factor the FR-S just makes a lot more sense. So the plans are solidly in place.
I want a good relationship with Dale White Motors of Elko, NV, and it is quite nice that they're right here in Elko. This fact really solidifies plans, and this one is one where everything I am learning jibes perfectly with what I am looking for. Almost like I'm some sort of car nut that loves red sportscars made for the masses or something. And there's this huge automaker from Japan that's building the car just for...me.
I love to hear all about you but sometimes I wanna talk about me. Me-me-me-me-me-me-me-me-me-me-me-me-me.
Toby Keith
Toby's a Ford F-150 and Harley-Davidson man.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
It's easy to carry a CRT monitor so long as you open the top to get it in.
Plus, how often do you haul monitors? I'm an IT guy and it's maybe twice a year.
Aren't you using Flat Panel monitors now anyway? I can fit a couple of those in my 5 cubic foot trunk.
The FR-S is a hatch and would probably fit half a dozen of those even with a passenger.
I'm not sure they'd cost quite that much, probably more like $8-900 in the smaller sizes that will be enough for such a light/small car. The summer tires they spec will be to obtain good results in the car mags. I bet all-seasons will be offered (especially for Subaru's snow belt customers).
Also, the FR-S will not appeal to the "typical Toyota customer", it will bring in new ones who perhaps have not been there since the Supra went out of production.
The problem these cars face is longevity - no doubt they'll be a hit at first, but sport coupes suffer from flavor-of-the-month, so Toyota (Subaru, really) will have to update it to keep people interested.
I know others do not agree, but I think this should be a Scion, and get updates every 3-4 model years or so.
200hp + RWD for $20 grand will create a HUGE affordable sports coupe niche for them. Even at $22k it will.
For some reason I find it hard to imagine the price will be any less than $25k, though.
This ain't hype, either.
Let me look for a cutaway to show you what they mean by that...
Here's one:
That's a Forester, but check out the position of the engine block - the entire block is below the top of the bumper.
The metal intake manifolds on that EJ25 is being replaced with one made from composite materials to lower the center of gravity even further (2011+ Foresters get it). As if it needed help.
Also, that very Forester has nearly 9" of ground clearance. The FR-S should have probably 4-5". So imagine that whole powertrain set even closer to the ground.
2750 lbs, most of it just 4-10" off the ground. Should stick to the road like glue.
2750 lbs, most of it just 4-10" off the ground. Should stick to the road like glue.
Like nippononly, the only other Edmunds member I know of who might want ta buy one of these pups, we feel that the fact that Subaru is doing the mechanicals is not only really smart (on Toyota's part) but really nice for us to benefit from their new tight business relationship, too.
And the base $20,000 (perhaps $20,995) will be a reality. Bookmark this and get back ta me in Oct. of 2011 to confirm that, K?
ateixiera-are you planning on buying one of these, too?
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
You're gonna like this, too:
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/motoring/news/article.cfm?c_id=9&objectid=10674907
They say the Subie version will indeed have AWD, and after spotting this test mule are projecting a 0-62mph (100kph) under 7 seconds, with 35mpg to boot.
Heck, I may have to get one for myself. Now that a coupe and sedan are likely, I wonder if they'll still do a roadster?
We run 3 cars in our fleet:
* a winter car (must be AWD/4WD with clearane for snow)
* a trip car (must be spacious, comfy)
* a sports/commuter car
Having the first 2 allow for many compromises in the 3rd.
This one has definitely piqued our interests...
Engineers have apparently worked hard to make sure that the engine meets the latest emissions regulations and delivers town-and-around fuel economy of about 8 litres/100km, or 35mpg.
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/motoring/news/article.cfm?c_id=9&objectid=10674907
That is a Subaru estimate for their version of the car but the Toyota version ought to be really close to that. I still think I could pull 36-37mpg with my 2012 Toyota Celica...I...I mean FR-S.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
Since last year, we’ve been hearing about a new sports car from Toyota and Subaru that will be priced around $20,000 and would give the two brands something to be proud about. However, both automakers were very good at keeping their upcoming sports coupe out of way of spy photographer lenses and never really talked much to the media about it in terms of when it will be available or what it would be called. In fact, the car’s nickname eventually became “Toyobaru,” which to say the least, we hated.
Toyota and Fuji Heavy plan to have the FT-86 on the roads by 2011. Subaru will get its own version of the car. Prices are expected to start around 3 million yen ($33,700 USD) in Japan and around $20,000 in the United States.
I've already provided links to the two quotes above in the posts of mine that come in a string just above. I think a lot of you are not sure that Toyota will offer the base FT-86 for only $20,000 and I'm telling you that they will. Reason being that they want the youth involved here and this car will attract scads of youths.
But young people don't have much money. Hence the need for $20,000 pricing. Plus, come on now people, Toyota is the King of Decontenting. They will decontent, make their final decision on what is and isn't important in the end, and make a final judgement on production content.
And you and I and everyone else will see that they will charge $20,000 for the base model of this car. The FT-86 in 6-speed manual form that is.
Here's a quote from an April 2010 Car and Driver article that states the car will cost just above $20,000. So it might cost $21,000-$22,000, yes. I'm just thinking that Toyota will not even want to go a few grand more and do what they've been saying they're gonna do, and that is make a base 6-speed manual-trannied model available for old guys like me who love sports cars and the budding youth who want ta Snoop Dogg and Katy Perry it in their own FT-86. For around $20,000.
The target is just above $20,000, so Toyota and Subaru will face tough competition from V-6 versions of the Chevy Camaro and the Ford Mustang, along with the Miata and the Hyundai Genesis coupe. But if Toyota’s and Subaru’s sports cars manage to keep curb weights well below 3000 pounds and combine the dynamics of a Miata with stunning looks, they both just might have hits on their hands.
After reading that you know what popped in to my mind? That Toyota will charge about $20,995 for theirs and Subaru, a much lower volume sales carmaker, will charge about $23,999 for theirs, which will indeed be AWD. We just heard that early this morning.
I'll be on this stuff like Gary Payton on Michael Jordan in the 1996 NBA Finals, guys. Please throw us all a bone if you beat me to any FT-86 news. I don't want the Subaru, I personally wouldn't buy a new Subaru, I don't like their styling. But Toyota's FR-S is styled just to my liking. Put some good AC/DC on your platters and get back to me later on all of this, OK?
gagrice, you really don't want one of these? Are you sure? These are gonna be an absolute ball ta drive, man. Belly up ta the bar and take in some loud Foghat with me and talk about it. What again don't you like about the 2012 Toyota FT-86? Remember, Toyota is planning on building a 4-door sedan of the car now.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick