Toyota on the mend?

anythngbutgm

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Toyota says that its Volt rival will be on sale in June of 2012 at a price around $28,000. That's about $13,000 less than the Volt

ateixeira

They also have a RAV4 EV coming.

They need to redesign that hatch, though, which opens the wrong way, blocking curbside loading.

gagrice

Maybe they got the design in the UK. Just looked at the pictures and it would be tough loading. You haul your stuff out in the street then open the door. Why not a raised or double door. That is a poor design. Its ugly anyway, so never on my list of SUVs.

robsis

Interesting that you point this out as I was truly SHOCKED when I called from the dealership and got a quote on our new 2010 FJ Cruiser. I was expecting a much higher rate and was told by the agent that the Toyota's are considered so safe in the industry, expecially the newer ones, that their rates, across the board, are just about the lowest around. We pay the same for a 1998 Subaru Forester that we pay (same coverage, BTW) for the FJ.

When I asked her about the UA issue, she chuckled and said they had received a memo regarding UA and Toyota that basically said it was so minor, percentage-wise, to the number of vehicles, that the industry did not consider it an issue. The bigger numbers were what mattered and that is where Toyota shined in occupant protection, etc.

No doubt that UA, etc., has caused some headaches for Toyota (and Toyota deserves it on many fronts); however, the insurance industry is definitely one to follow when it comes to real cost (to own, to life, etc.) and Toyota is still a leader here.

Some will just refuse to recognize this and blindly beat a mantra of Toyota Bashing. Kind of like hating a particular politician.......even when they do something right, it's wrong to those kinds of people. It's amusing to me..... :shades:

uplanderguy

It was actually the insurance industry that first brought Toyota's above-average number of UA incidents to the forefront. Glad you're paying good insurance rates though (really).

ateixeira

It's a JDM design that they never reversed.

So basically it opens to the curb side for Japan & UK, but they didn't flip the door for LHD markest like the USA, so the door opens and ... DOH! ... blocks the curb.

Stinks for loading groceries and Costco purchases, stuff like that.

The Highlander doesn't have that issue, and they just added a split fold 3rd row to correct that model's most glaring mistake.

ateixeira

That's funny, I had a '98 Forester as well, actually my Sienna replaced it. Yes, the rates dropped.

Fortunately for Subaru, rates on newer models are better (we now have a 2009 Forester). I think all the Top Safety Picks they won really helped their image overall in their eyes. IIHS = Insurance Institute for Highway Safety, so they are the ones conducted those very same tests.

Funny side note - in the TCO reports I just checked the insurance rates for older models actually increase steadily, outpacing even inflation. Year 5 was 15% more than Year 1 in insurance costs. So they do not usually drop as mentioned above. I checked several models from 3 different manufacturers, too.

That makes the drop in my rates all the more significant.

I guess when the insurance industry observes a lower-than-projected rate of claims for a very safe model they drop the rates. :shades:

gagrice

It really does not make sense with all the incompetent drivers that buy Toyota. :shades:

nippononly

Unlike Volt, for which GM claims a 40-mile range before gasoline-recharging begins, Toyota only claims a 13-mile electric-only range for the plug-in Prius that is coming.

So that extra 10 grand for the Volt buys you another 27 potential miles per day without using gas, which could make your gas costs $0 depending on your driving pattern. With the Prius, I would think almost everybody would use some gas each day, as 13 miles round trip doesn't take you far. For many, that will throw the advantage to the Volt.

For me, the other end of the spectrum would be much more important: the Volt only has a range of 300 miles before it requires refueling (which without any electric charging buys you only another 260 miles), while Prius will go 500 miles before refueling. Advantage Prius, in my book.

nippononly

I think Toyota should market the FT-86 under the Scion brand.

No way! Toyota needs something enticing in its lineup like a person needs air to breathe. This car should be the new Celica, only the fourth generation in its history to deserve the Celica name, as all the others were FWD (although the last-gen model WAS a lot of fun despite the FWD).

gagrice

iluvmysephia1

and I still remain interested in the RWD 2013 Toyota FT-86 6-speed manual. With a 120hp Yaris 4-banger that will get...what did you predict, nippononly, 40mpg. For sure it can. Put on Tommy Roe's 1969 Top 40 hit 'Dizzy' and pour me a nice tall Margarita, and do salt the top. As I grab my tennis racket tomorrow and challenge my son to a match in Elko's 80 degree NE Nevada Great Basin heat.

Built it right, build it proud and make it shine in that same red-orange glow that this picture represents. Call it a Scion. Doesn't matter ta me. I've test drove a 2006 Scion xA in polar white and a 2005 Scion tC RS 1.0 in Absolutely Red before and dug both of those forays very, very much. Now get crackin' and make mine with the non-stick pedals.

fintail

I'll take the one in back...oh yeah, it's heading for 20 years old now

nippononly

Still desirable though. There's a dealership in Silicon Valley that has a pair of them, low mileage twin turbo models. They are technically for sale, but with advertised prices of around $60,000, I think the owner just wants to have a piece of Toyota history to show off to prospective customers. :-)

anythngbutgm

"Daimler’s Next Hybrids: Made By Toyota"

:shades:

lemko

Heck, with my short commute, I could get by all week without using a drop of gasoline provided I don't go out every day for lunch.

fintail

60K for a pair of pristine twin turbos actually isn't an insane price. Per car it's nutty though. Maybe the last exciting Toyota made.

anythngbutgm

In that case, I'd go with the Nissan leaf with a range of 100 miles.

In the city, I'd expect Nissan to score big time with their new entry... It's affordable, uses no gas and unlike the PIP or the ridiculously overpirced Volt, it's a zero emissions vehicle... :shades:

larsb

Nissan's "100 mile range" is just a technical specification.

That 100 miles is probably on a test track, no heater, no A/C, at 30 miles per hour.

The "reality" under most normal circumstances will always be less than that.

Using the heater and A/C will tax the batteries more. Also, higher speeds will tax it more. So if anyone thinks they can drive a Leaf for a 60-mile daily commute at 70 mph in the dead of winter with the heater on or in the middle of summer with the A/C blasting on full, you might be hard-pressed to do that.

• How does using the A/C or heat affect that theoretical 100 mile range?
It depends on how cool you're trying to keep the car but it can cut about 10 percent off of your distance (so knock you down to 90 miles). The engineer next to me during the test drive said running the heater actually takes a bigger bite and that it would be closer to 20 percent.

Not trying to knock the Leaf at ALL, just trying to help keep some expectations at a realistic level.

anythngbutgm

Understood but wouldn't the same penalties affect the competition?

I find significant value in the Leaf due to it's non polluting powertrain, especially in congested cities.

larsb

anythngbutgm says, "Understood but wouldn't the same penalties affect the competition?"

Yes, correct.

I was just responding to someone who was quoting the Nissan's 100 mile range and pointing out that no one should make a decision on which car to buy SOLELY based on the 100 mile range that Nissan is stating.

gagrice

SOLELY based on the 100 mile range that Nissan is stating.

Or the 40 mile range GM is stating.

I would take the simplicity of the Leaf over the complex Volt or Toyota hybrids.

busiris

SOLELY based on the 100 mile range that Nissan is stating.

Or the 40 mile range GM is stating.

I would take the simplicity of the Leaf over the complex Volt or Toyota hybrids.

I dunno....

If I lived in a small urban environment and never traveled out of town, I guess I agree. However, I (and I suspect many others) am skeptical of buying a "ride" with such short "optimal" distance specifications with no alternative power source.

Years ago (mid 1970's) , I remember seeing a boxy little electric vehicle being sold. When I was at college (a very hilly town), you would see these things on the side of the road, half way up the hill....with a dead battery, and a walking driver.

I think it was a Sebring-Vanguard CitiCar.

No doubt, battery and electric car technology has improved considerably, but it would take a lot of selling for someone to get that image out of my mind.

gagrice

Lots of hills and freeway driving should be left to the carbon fueled vehicles. We don't need them blocking traffic or dead along the road. I try to justify any of them in my mind or calculator and they just do not compute or compel me to spend my cash.

larsb

Well, the one full, complete advantage that the Volt and/or Plug-In Prius have over ANY pure electric car is :

The Volt or Prius will NOT leave you on the side of the road needing a power outlet to get moving again.

busiris

Well, the one full, complete advantage that the Volt and/or Plug-In Prius have over ANY pure electric car is :

The Volt or Prius will NOT leave you on the side of the road needing a power outlet to get moving again.

Actually, diesel power is highly competitive with hybrids, and I suspect that if I were looking for such a vehicle, and I expected to keep it for a long time period, I would find that diesel would be the cheapest-per-mile to own and operate, and also be the most reliable.

anythngbutgm

I agree, but to me it's not much different than running out of gas. If there is a range display on the dash it would be helpful in knowing how far I can go.

Plus, there may be a whole infrastructure of charging stations awaiting to be built which in my opinion is a double plus because not only does it encourage the market to accept EV's rather than fall for the fear mongering "range anxiety" (not by you laserb, but by others like the Volt groupies) it also could mean the addition of work to current and possible start-up companies which results in adding jobs

Also, Nissan supposedly will have a "quick charger" available (for sale) which will recharge the batteries to 75% in a half an hour. :surprise: I wanna say I read it was $250.00.

But think of the possibilities on that front as well as there is a market for charging stations as well. Again, more jobs...

larsb

anythngbutgm says, "I agree, but to me it's not much different than running out of gas."

Actually, there IS a substantial and BIG difference between running out of gas and running out of electricity for an electric car:

You can get a gasoline car going again with a plastic jug of gasoline.

You can't "haul electricity" to the side of the road to get your electric car recharged. If you run out of electricity in an EV, you gotta pay to get TOWED.

I drove the EV-1 over a weekend a couple of times, and I can tell you that when the "miles to go" meter started getting down toward the low range, I started getting worried.

anythngbutgm

That's why I think the Leaf will be a great option for city dwellers (like Lemko). Charging stations can be just as plentiful as gas stations.

Outside the city, ya "advance at your own risk" certainly applies.

larsb

anythngbutgm says, "Charging stations can be just as plentiful as gas stations."

And what year do you expect that to actually be true? Certainly not 2011, 2012. Maybe by 2013-2015?

anythngbutgm

Sure, 2013. Depending on how the EV movement goes maybe sooner, maybe later...

Hyundai, Mitsu, Smart and Mini are already planning on jumping into the arena and I wouldn't be surprised to see a competitor from Ford (which had an EV focus on the Today show back in the Springtime) as well.

I believe there is a big chance to blow the whole segment wide open and I would be shocked that there aren't plans and operations already in place to get the infrastructure up to speed as quickly as possible. Combined with the oil spill in the gulf, the ongoing middle East conflict accompanying the inevitable spike in gas prices and I think the the EV movement is in the fastlane, easily passing by the E-85's, hydrogen fuelcells and parallel hybrids of the world.. :shades:

JMO of course.

lemko

I wonder if someday strangers will be coming up to people's houses carrying extension cords saying,"S'cuse me, sir. My car just died. Can I plug my car into your outlet for a bit so I can get going?"

busiris

Isn't the solution obvious?

Everyone will simply keep a Coleman camping generator stowed in the trunk!

nippononly

60K for a pair of pristine twin turbos actually isn't an insane price. Per car it's nutty though. Maybe the last exciting Toyota made

No, that price is EACH. But like I said, I don't think they are REALLY for sale unless someone comes along with a million dollars burning a hole in his/her pocket that just HAS TO HAVE an almost-new Mk IV Supra TT.

Until that day, they will just be there to show off.

imidazol97

I thought at one time Richard was looking at CPO used vehicles?

Richard, are you still looking used?

nippononly

The question I have with these electrics is how many of them can do a 50% or greater charge in the 10 minutes or so that one would typically spend at a gas station.

I know there are one or two, but I don't think they include the Leaf, Volt, or proposed plug-in Prius. I could be wrong, i am going from memory.

The other thing to add into this whole discussion is how many people there are out there that have one car at home that is used as a commuter and another (often larger) vehicle they use for traveling out of town.

I suspect it's a lot of people, and for all those people the Leaf would present no concerns of range because they would only be intending to use it for around-town commuting anyway. And with a price around $20K after tax credits, it's reasonable to think they would buy one as their commute car.

I am in that group but will often have a day of more than 100 miles of driving, so the Leaf cannot serve my needs. No charging station at work. Maybe one day when we can recharge in 10 minutes at the gas station, it would be more useful to me.

beachfish2

Where are we going to get the electricity to power all of these thousands or millions of green cars? Most areas are running short of electricity as it is now. Will we be building numerous additional coal-fired or nuclear plants to satisfy the increased demand?

Has anybody run the numbers on the massive investment that will be required?

Oh well, I usually have to park a half a block to a block away from my inner city home, so I certainly won't be buying a car that requires charging at night.

John

ateixeira

how many of them can do a 50% or greater charge in the 10 minutes or so that one would typically spend at a gas station

Earlier Gary and I were discussing the idea of a removeable battery pack that would dock in place.

Think about it - you could "fill up" in seconds. How long does it take to swap a battery pack on a cordless drill? 3 seconds? Less? Quicker than running to the shed to get the portable gas can and fill up my lawn mower.

It would be more for a car, but it would still be quicker than filling up 15 gallons of gas.

Until then, there will inevitably be a few stranded owners of pure electrics.

Back to the plug-in Prius - even with a 13 mile range, which by coincidence is exactly the length of my commute, it would get most people to work OK, especially the urban customers it will target. If my work adds charging stations I'd never need to buy gas. I'd actually have to worry about the gas going stale, which is funny.

The Volt is pricey, sure it's cool but even with credits we're talking $33 grand for a car that is really only for commutes (you'd still need a 2nd car IMHO).

Toyota no doubt took into account that credit when they came up with the $28k projected price for the plug-in Prius (is it eligible for credits or did Toyota use those up?). It has to be cheaper - just attainable enough to do a lot more volume than the Volt or Leaf, I predict.

I think there is a place for each of these, and sure it will be limited volume, mostly urban buyers, but that's fine. I work in congested DC, and a lot of my co-workers don't even own a car. Some use those short-term rental cars, like Zip Car, other rely on public transportation and taxi cabs.

Plug-in electrics could steal a few of those away. Plus the folks that live close-in. I don't imagine a lot of suburban owners, though.

ateixeira

Has anybody run the numbers on the massive investment that will be required?

Production will ramp up slowly - very low volumes at first, I bet.

Also remember most of them will be charging at night, during off peak hours.

busiris

Earlier Gary and I were discussing the idea of a removeable battery pack that would dock in place.

Think about it - you could "fill up" in seconds. How long does it take to swap a battery pack on a cordless drill? 3 seconds? Less? Quicker than running to the shed to get the portable gas can and fill up my lawn mower.

It would be more for a car, but it would still be quicker than filling up 15 gallons of gas.

Until then, there will inevitably be a few stranded owners of pure electrics.

Not a bad idea at all, but that aspect doesn't seem to be in the "mix" at the moment.

NatGeo had a 1 hour Ultimate Factories program on the Volt, and seeing the way its currently designed, battery swapping will be anything but easy and fast.

Of course, that's not to say it couldn't be designed that way.

The other poster also brought up a very good point. If/when we start plugging all these cars into the grid, we're gonna need a bigger grid!

Yes, charging can be done at night, but the marketing has already started demonstrating cars being charged at the workplace while the owner is at work.

I guess we'll drive off this bridge when we get to it...

explorerx4

I haven't seen any real 'good' news about Toyota lately.
Actually, the wake up call regarding their engineering issues, is good news for them in the long run. I am sure they will address them.
That is about the best news I can come up with.

imidazol97

http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-0915-toyota-blackbox-20100915,0,93137.stor- y

But the admission casts fresh doubt on the reliability of data taken from black boxes, known as event data recorders, or EDRs, even as they have been used to help prop up the company's image as it weathers its ongoing recall crisis. Toyota has issued more than 11 million recall notices in the last year and has been hit with hundreds of lawsuits.

"You can't rely on event data recorders to determine whether there has been a sudden acceleration event," said Clarence Ditlow, executive director of the Center for Auto Safety. "We can't take Toyota at face value that the EDR is accurate enough to clear them of responsibility for sudden unintended acceleration."

berri

Where are we going to get the electricity to power all of these thousands or millions of green cars?

Good point, and how and where will we dispose of all the hybrid batteries that go bad as that area expands? I think we'll be using petrol longer than many think. I also think that while oil is a diminishing resource, its not disappearing nearly as fast as either the green weenies or the manipulative Wall Street speculators would like you to believe.

berri

I haven't seen any real 'good' news about Toyota lately.

Well profits are up, resale value is building back up, some people got real good bargains during the hysteria. That's not to say that Toyota focused people are happy. The haters are still waiting for its demise, although it isn't going to happen any time soon. The old time Toyota fans are unhappy because Toyota chose to become a major marketer and player which has meant a loss of the old indestructible image to sell at popular price points.

explorerx4

Some of these issues for Toyota are going to take years to play out.
At the very least, they let the Hyundai monster in the front door, although not into the kitchen just yet.

berri

I think Hyundai was coming anyway. They have a lower cost base and the Korean government on their side.

As for Toyota, their management decisions cost them their premium image and has moved them into a volume player role. In good times, which much of the newly developed world is actually experiencing (and I believe we'll see again a few more years down the road), volume players like Toyota or Ford make out due to economies of scale and full product line offerings.

explorerx4

I think Toyota, among others, benefited from the same advantage you are attributing to Hyundai.
Yes, I agree that Toyota is now another volume based brand.
That seems to be viewed as bashing.
I view it as recognizing it for what it is.

imidazol97

>As for Toyota, their management decisions cost them their premium image

Toyota didn't have a premium image; they tried putting on lots of makeup to give that impression. But their handling of problems starting with 2002 and the NHSTA showed they're not premium.

To wit:

"Toyota Motor Corp. has acknowledged that a software bug in the device used to read its black boxes produced faulty data, only months after the automaker touted information from the recorders to suggest that human error caused sudden acceleration."

http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-0915-toyota-blackbox-20100915,0,93137.stor- y

gagrice

Pretty much what we have been trying to say all along. Toyota was in a hurry to make their EDR data clear them of any defects. It looks to me like they better go back to the drawing board on this one. I cannot imagine a crash at 1.4 MPH doing much damage.

In early April, Toyota downloaded data from an EDR in a crashed 2007 Tundra using the uncorrected software, resulting in what the company now says was erroneous data. Specifically, the readout indicated that the pickup slowed by 177 mph upon impact, a speed Toyota now admits is impossible.

It wasn't until June that a software upgrade was provided to NHTSA, Toyota's Michels said. He said the company had reread the data from the Tundra and that it now showed a change of velocity of 1.4 mph.

berri

Toyota didn't have a premium image; they tried putting on lots of makeup to give that impression

Well, up until not too long ago a comparable Toyota went out the door for several grand more than many of its competitors. I'd call that a premium image among buyers of mid priced vehicles at the time. Today they are more about volume, and despite the mongering they are doing pretty well on a very profitable basis. Despite the volume and a few issues in the media, look at things like CR and you'll see they still are more red dot (less repairs) than many of their competitors.