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Comments
They can use the Scion tC platform for cost savings, it seems to sahre the tC's rear end. And it would be an obvious competitor for the Civic Coupe (not that Toyota needs to sell more Corollas).
I'm not holding my breathe. It would be a welcome surprise.
DrFill
I think there is a 95% chance that this coupe is coming our way. It's probably a major reason why it'll be badged as a Toyota but not Subaru. Toyota needs 2 sports cars (one low end and one top end) for its US model lineup anyway so this could be a great fit.
Now, Toyota, what's up with the new Supra?
DrFill
DrFill
400HP, 25mpg and $32K will be a pretty good combination IMO.
A pretty bad combination, IMO.
Toyota needs to do the right thing.
DrFill
Hopefully there'll be a stripped version with 300HP and manual tranny.
Keep your fingers crossed.
I had an hour or so to kill so I went into Mossy Toyota in San Diego. Wandering through the new Tundra fleet I ran into Joe the salesman. Very nice young man. Told him I wanted to check out the CrewMax. That truck has a BIG back seat area. I was also struck by the short hood length. In our conversation I asked if a person could order one from the factory just the way they want it. He told me no problem 30-60 days unless they found a match in the area. The conversation went to SUVs which I am actually wanting to buy. He has a lot of 4Runners. I sat in front and in back. It is a sardine can, no way would I buy one. Next to the Sequoia Limited. Now that was nice with good leg room in the back seat. He insisted we take a test drive. I liked the smooth response better than the Mercedes GL I drove yesterday. The MB has a surge issue similar to what folks are complaining about with the Camry. The Sequoia is a VERY nice SUV. They only have a 2wheel drive in the limited. The price they quoted me was about $5k over the Edmund's TMV for that vehicle. I would consider it. I have several other Luxury SUVs to test drive before I make up my mind. I would buy from Joe. Nice guy and very accomadating.
For you hybrid buyers. They claim to have the largest inventory of Prius in San Diego. I saw 13 lined up. The also had half a dozen Camry hybrids. Including that jasper green. I kind of like it. Not the Camry hybrid. The color.
Check this link for spy pics!link title
Mack, I think of you often and hope you're able to pull through this latest setback. You're not too far from me (I'm about 200 miles west of you on I-64 in central VA). Hang in there, and keep those great posts coming!
I learned to drive on a 4Runner, back in the day, so I have a rather large soft spot for it.
Having driven it several times recently, it obviously is a very nice truck, but it cannot drive as well as a Highlander, for example. It's for the young, adventurous couple. It's old school.
Sequioa is coming. Stay tuned!
DrFill
If one wants a people hauler then Sequoia (or even Highlander) is a better option. However, if one wants to go offroading then nothing can beat a 4x4 4Runner.
The GX is an amped-up 4Runner. Another excellent job by Toyota of sdesigning the two so they don't don the "Badge-engineered" label. They definitely have different styling themes, and differing personalities.
I wouldn't expect wholesale changes to the Tundra's interior for the Sequioa either. You have to admit, there is plenty of sapce out back in the Max.
A fully-independent rear end should make the 3rd-row quite nice! :shades:
DrFill
are they actually going to go to the trouble of designing a IRS system if they didn't bother to do it in the more expensive LX/Land Cruiser?
Land Rovers well below the LC price point with more off-road capability have IRS.
So if you buy the Sequoia or any other new truck are you gonna be trading in your GMC Hybrid?
Anything that diefies the Camry is a good ting!
DrFill
Not feelin' the GL either, huh? I think that would be the best luxury full-sized SUV.
DrFill
I really wanted to like the GL3230 CDI. There is something that is not right with the shifting both up and down. I hope this is not the case with all new automatic transmissions. When you let off the gas it would down shift which abruptly slowed you down. It was a very nice quiet ride. Plenty of power. I expect a $70k vehicle to be near perfect. I expect that from a $30k vehicle.
Now I read here on Edmund's complaints with the Sequoia transmission. I may just buy a year old Denali Yukon.
The transmission is an important, and underrated efficiency tool. It can make, or break, a vehicle.
DrFill
Early '07 Camry owners have had issues. Different tranny, doh.
DrFill
DrFill
That car was awesome and sold me on diesels pretty much.
Until you drive one it is hard to get people interested in a modern diesel.
If Toyota would just get off the stick and bring a Tacoma and Sequoia Diesel to the USA, they would lure me in.
Plan A (hybrids) rocks!
Plan B is almost ready.
DrFill
Toyota is causing itself to become lost in the shuffle, in terms of product. It's beginning to show: this was the third straight month in which its sales did not top same-month sales last year. It's still up 3.8% for the year in a market which is down slightly for the year, so it's not at crisis stage yet. It's not the best of omens though.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Running down the lineup...
The 3 key vehicles
The Corolla is winding down after 5-1/2 yrs. Incentives are $500-$1000 but pricing is about $1000 higher now than when it debuted in 2002. It's been a money machine.
The Camry, what can you say.
The Prius is a beginning its 5th year this month. The 4th year was its best ever.
The others:
The Scions are in the midst of two product changeovers. I am surprised that the tC is down. We still have leftover 07s on the lot which in the case of Scion is highly unusual.
The Avalon is a small volume lead-in to the Lexus lineup. Even with its excellent fuel economy it's still a $30000+ vehicle so it's expensive and directed to a limited market segment.
The Sienna is probably just beginning its last year in this form and despite its excellent fuel economy it too is on the expensive side $26000 to $40000. Down 29%.
The RAV is the star of the SUVs because it's the least expensive. It gets great fuel economy, the V6 is phenomenal, it has good size now and it can appeal to a wide variety of buyers.
The Highlander from initial reports here and in reviews is a great vehicle with a fantastic engine ( Avalon, RAV, Camry, Sienna, ES/RX 350 ) but it does begin at $30000 again.
The BOF SUV's ( FJ, 4R, Seq, LC ) are getting ignored by the whole buying public across the board at every maker while fuel stays at about $3 a gallon and prices start at about $30000 and go up to $60000. Only the Expedition showed an improvement in Sept 07.
PICKUP TRUCKS:
The Tacoma is down? What the ??? It is getting pricey though at upwards of $28000-$30000 ... but there's little or no incentives either. It is up slightly for the year.
Ahhhhhhh The Tundra... Everything in all of Toyota this year is focused on one thing. Making sure the Tundra succeeds. My feeling is that a lot of effort and marketing is being directed to the Tundra during 2007 with all the other vehicles taking a backseat.
According to a presentation by the head of CAT last month the softness in the automarket is expected to last through to Spring 08. But even in this soft market overall sales for the year are up with some key vehicles being up signigicantly.
Camry
Prius
Tundra
What do you mean the model didn;t advance enough? When has Toyota ever had a big advance in a model prior generation vs previous generation except for a few occasions like with the 92 Lexus ES(vs the ES250) and the 92 and 07 Camry, and current Prius vs the last gen Prius. Besides that nothing else really sticks out to me in terns of big time advances by them over the years. The first gen 99 Lexus RX 300, and the first gen Lexus LS 400 were big steps foward for Toyota/Lexus too but they were brand new models/nameplates at the time too. The Scion Tc looked like a smash hit at the time when it was first introduced but I think interest in that model has faded a little bit because there is so much competition(the Scion TC) in that category right now with a red hot selling Mazda 3, a revitilized introduced 2006+ Honda Civic Coupe, and a well-styled 2008 Mitsubishi Lancer. I did see a kid driving out a brand new Scion TC when I was at the dealer getting my brand new Mazda 6 prepped though the other day. The dealer where I bought my Mazda 6 sells Mazda, and Toyota/Scion brands
I did go down several times to see the Tundra. I liked its very impressive list of features!! However the vehicle is HUGE!! It makes a Toyota Landcruiser look like a compact car in comparison!
I did ask if/when a diesel option might be offered!
According to Toyota the diesel is 'completed'. It's a typical obtuse and secretive response by Toyota. However at the end of this month at the SEMA show in LV they will unveil a dually Tundra diesel 'concept' using a Hino engine.
The announcement of the SEMA show debut seemed to imply that the Hino engine was a drop-in just to have an engine ( any engine ) in the vehicle. I took that to mean that the one being shown was not the one that was announced as being 'completed'.
Well, the hybrid powertrain is the same as that of the outgoing model, with the same uninspiring fuel economy. The new Yukon hybrid will produce better fuel economy, more interior space, and much more towing capacity for the same money. The new HL's interior is still too cheap for the price tag, just like the outgoing model's. And the standard V-6 powertrain is shared with the thousands-less RAV4, which also has almost as much interior space. Indeed, what is really "new" except the swing-up glass on the rear end and a generally pleasant but hardly stand-out restyling? Sure that third row got a little bigger but a comparison of interior space between it and the RAV is virtually a wash.
Meanwhile, the competition now in that segment is much more fierce than it was when the first HL came around in '01, and despite arriving AFTER the new GM Lambda models, and with the new Pilot less than a year away, it provides only mediocre competition for either.
Now Corolla sales have been raging all through the year on the backs of $2500-3000 routine discounts off sticker and continuing high gas prices, but when those dealers try to get close to full sticker next spring, they may run in to trouble if the Corolla update is as weak as the HL's was.
All this so Toyota can give away $3000-5000 all year on every new Tundra it sells, just to get into the truck market? If you give away the WHOLE farm trying to get the farm on the map, you have kind of shot yourself in the foot, dontcha' think?
Plus, the cool Scions are gone, having been replaced by Amerified Toyotas that someone for some reason glued Scion badges on. :-(
Could some of these issues be part of the reason Toyota is down for its third straight month and up only slightly for the year, while both Honda and Nissan have fared noticeably better recently?
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
That's not exactly correct about the fuel economy. When compared to their ICE siblings the new Y/T hybrids will save the same amount of fuel in city driving as the HH does ( both save more than the Camry hybrid does ). But the Y/T hybrids are 20% below the fuel economy of the HH on all other criteria.
The GreeHybrid database has the HH at about 25 mpg overall. The Y/T2M's should endup right around 21 mpg overall.
The Y/T hybrids are going to be $5000 to $10000 higher in price than the new 2008 HH. One begins around $34000 the other likely will begin around $44000.
The competition is much fiercer in the Crossover segment with a lot of new options now for every buyer. Pricing is a key factor here...and a weak market.
Meanwhile, the competition now in that segment is much more fierce than it was when the first HL came around in '01, and despite arriving AFTER the new GM Lambda models, and with the new Pilot less than a year away, it provides only mediocre competition for either.
Now Corolla sales have been raging all through the year on the backs of $2500-3000 routine discounts off sticker and continuing high gas prices, but when those dealers try to get close to full sticker next spring, they may run in to trouble if the Corolla update is as weak as the HL's was.
The drivability of the HL over the Rav is like night and day. The HL is MUCH smoother, quieter, and gets to speed not as fast (it's also heavier), but in a mature, appealing manner.
The HL also has 94 cubes behind the front seats, easily beating the Pilot, and approaching Yukon territory. Pretty good efficiency for a mid-size! Plus it tows more than Pilot!
Plus it is about 20% more efficient than the YH. And gets to 60 a second faster. Plus the 3rd seat goes into the floor. And it costs less. Better resale. Standard back up camera. You get the idea. It's better. :shades:
The HL also is stronger, faster, and more efficient than the Pilot in ICE form, and the Hybrid only enhances the advantage. Plus the 3rd seat now has easier access up the middle, and you get the back-up camera thrown in!
The Hl is a better vehicle than the Pilot, and a better value than the Tahoe. Pretty easy to see that, if you keep your eyes open. :surprise:
Having actually sold Corollas this year, I, personally, never took off more than $1500 a unit. It's not a fire sale, as you imply. Especially if they drive the Yaris first.
I remember a day when you used to be "down" with us. :sick:
DrFill
While if I was Toyota I would worry about Honda/Acura because thats the one manufacturer if Toyota falters down the road Honda could take some of Toyota's market share. Nissan still doesn;t have their quality up enough to compete with Toyota. The Nissan of the 2002+ era does not have great quality/reliability like the Nissan of the 1980's or 1990's with the exception of their Infinti line.
Just for the record for the year I think:
Toyota/Lexus/Scion up 72,000 units I think for the year
Honda/Acura up 33,000 units
Nissan/Infinti numbers I would have to check on but I know their sales numbers are up for the year.
Well you say Toyota sales are only slightly up for the year but Total auto sales in the US are down 2.8%-2.9% for the year and Toyota is up 3.8% for the year so Toyota is doing ok. The only Toyota division that is down so far this year is Scion which is down by 39,000 units(100K units sold so far this year vs 139K units sold ao far at this time last year.) Lexus is up for the year with 244K units sold so far this year vs 234K units sold so far athis time last year.
"All this so Toyota can give away $3000-5000 all year on every new Tundra it sells, just to get into the truck market? If you give away the WHOLE farm trying to get the farm on the map, you have kind of shot yourself in the foot, dontcha' think?"
I do think that Toyota shot themselves in the foot in that they created artificial demand for the Tundra by offering 3000-5000 dollars in rebates. Toyota should have let Demand for the Tundra create itself instead of offering the monster rebates that they did in my opinion. But than again Toyota now has a goal of selling 200K units of Tundra a year for this particular generation of Tundra so that explains the monster rebates that Toyota offered on it. Well at least now, Toyota has cut prices of the Tundra and has yanked out some of the standard equipment that people in the market for a truck like the Tundra may not want.
"Plus, the cool Scions are gone, having been replaced by Amerified Toyotas that someone for some reason glued Scion badges on."
Scion wasn't even "cool" in the first place with the exception of the TC in my opinion. I myself am 27 but I wouldn't a buy a Scion because its not what I am looking for in a car. I mean I don;t see alot of first gen XA's or XB's around here but the TC does have good popularity in Central NJ. Still I sort of still look Scion's idea though when it was first introduced in the US because you could pick whatever upgrades you wanted in a XB, XA or a TC. Finally, Is there a Scion brand that sells in Canada like it does in the US? I do agree with you there is a resememblance with the newere Scions and with newer Toyota's as well since the new gen XB do bare a striking resemblance to the 07 Camry though with the headlights. I guess Toyota was trying to make the XB look edgier by putting throwing a Camry styling cue in there with the headlights.
As far as the Corolla is concerned its in its 5th(2007 leftover model on the lot) or 6th year(2008 model) year of its current generation bodystyle but like "DrFill" said in his last posting I don't think Toyota is giving firesales rebates on the Corolla.
Honda is a fine competitor but it's limited in scope. It really only has 4 vehicles. Civic, Accord, Ody, Pilot. None of these can grow big enough to do any major damage to Toyota's position.
Regarding the Tundra it comes down to the bottom line in that they've put themselves in place to make much more money with the same number of units. The trucks are hugely more profitable than the other vehicles. The incentives are $5000 to $6000 but the rebates are actually only $2000 to $3000. A buyer can choose one or the other.
Agreed on the Corolla. They are discounted as they should be in their last several months but overall the current MSRP is about $1000 higher than when this Gen first came out in Feb 2002. In effect even with a $1000 rebate they are still selling the Corolla at 'full sticker'. What the dealers do has nothing to do with Toyota.
I'm baffled too with the Scion situation. I like the current lineup better than before but neither would be my first choice. Why the tC is slow suddenly is beyond me. Where are these buyers going suddenly?
As for HL vs Pilot, Honda is well aware that the Pilot has been around for a while, so it will be the bargain (lots of Honda-incentivized leases and bargain purchase prices) of the two for the next year (the '09 will be a revised model). After that, who knows? Honda rarely rests on its laurels, and the new HL doesn't provide a very high bar to vault.
Check out some of the prices paid on the Corolla board. Look in any weekend paper. Ask the folks in your office who bought Corollas this year. Anyone paying a price higher than $2000 off MSRP is not getting the best deal they could have. I was just reading last night here at Edmunds a post from a guy who got $3300 off their new Corolla. My boss's boss just got $3100 and change off the sticker on his new LE. You don't even have to try hard for those deals on Corolla.
Anyway, I only mentioned those models because their sales are all down, in addition to Yaris sales. You have to wonder in particular about the HL, since it is a brand new model. In the bigger picture, carguy is certainly correct that for the year Toyota is up about as much as Honda and Nissan in an overall market that is down. But three months of down sales for Toyota while H/N continue their rise might mark the beginning of a worrisome trend.
And Doc: I have told you before - I have been a devoted Toyota fan for 20 years or more, and many of my new cars in that time have been Toyotas, including the most recent. But that just makes me all the more ready to hold their toes to the fire when holding toes to the fire is needed. With the relentless and aggressive cost-cutting of the last 15 years, and some of the large-scale problems of the last five that have resulted, not to mention the rush to middle market that has eliminated most of the interesting models in the last decade, I begin to question the car company I am rooting for. That's all.
I wish them well, but they seem to be in a bit of a drunken stupor brought on by these huge sales increases recently. This is just the wrong moment to mortgage the product quality that got them these sales increases in the first place.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
GM told us the final mileage for its new hybrid full-size SUVs would be around 20 mpg, and the company was right. Today, it announced that the EPA has rated the two-wheel-drive Chevy Tahoe and GMC Yukon at 21/22 mpg (city/highway). The four-wheel-drive models get 20/20 mpg. The non-hybrid versions get 14/20 and 14/19 mpg with a similarly sized V-8 engine.
Story from cars.com
Uh you forgot about the CR-V and I do believe Honda is major threat to Toyota(thats if Toyota falters) and word is Honda will have a competitor to the Prius in the near future so Toyota better watch out when Honda's Prius competitor comes out.
"Why the tC is slow suddenly is beyond me. Where are these buyers going suddenly?"
Like I said before potential Scion Tc buyers are going to Mazda 3, Honda Civic Coupe and Mitsubishi Lancer I think.
"The incentives are $5000 to $6000 but the rebates are actually only $2000 to $3000. A buyer can choose one or the other."
Whats the difference between and rebates aren;t they the same thing?
"Agreed on the Corolla. They are discounted as they should be in their last several months but overall the current MSRP is about $1000 higher than when this Gen first came out in Feb 2002. In effect even with a $1000 rebate they are still selling the Corolla at 'full sticker'."
Corolla's are selling for full sticker currently vs the 2003 model? I don;t know about that because it depends with the spread between new invoice(on a 2007 or 2008 model) and old MSRP is on the 2003 model would think anyay.
Civic Si, GTI's, maybe even the Rabbit. I'd even throw a Fit (NPI) or the Base Mini Cooper in there. The Scion is nice and sporty but I didn't find it to be a great handler in stock form and the thing is heavy.
That is why I would push Toyota to market the future lightweight coupe that has been floating around the rumor columns as the next gen tC. I'd even go further and add a lightweight convertible to go with it. Both should be rear drivers as well...
The pricing is said to be in the mid $40's as opposed to about $40K for an ICE.
Now when GM migrates the 2-Mode system to their lambda structure for the Outlook, Enclave, Acadia and new Traverse those will put a hurting on the HH in its present form. All of them are bigger with similar power to the Highlander.
But..... that's several years down the road.
In the meanwhile the new Prius is due here in about 12-18 mo's. The Prius is the launch vehicle for Toyota's new powertrain innovations. If it comes out with a significantly superior system, whatever its form, that improvement gets migrated to the HH, TCH and whatever is in the lineup then.