Toyota on the mend?

louiswei

Example 1:

…what happens when big dreams get mugged by reality? That’s what Nancy Fein addressed in her talk. As soon as the first Lexus 400 sedans hit the market, she said, the company learned that there were three minor technical problems with the car.

So more than 300 Lexus officials organized into small groups and traveled to all parts of the country. They visited the affected customers at home, brought them a gift, apologized for the glitches in person, and, of course, brought along a technician who fixed the problems. On the spot. In their driveways.

Example 2:

Last year, another small problem developed with a Lexus model—this time, the new ES 350 sedan. Something about the transmission skipping second gear and slipping from first to third. (Don’t ask for more details, I’m not a car guy.) The problem affected about 700 cars before the Lexus factories fixed it. This time, rather than visit customers at their homes, Lexus did ask them to visit their dealer. But instead of just fixing the problem, Lexus gave all the affected customers a brand new car. No questions asked.

Wow!!

Source: The Passionate Pursuit

anythngbutgm

I recall Lexus also recalled every single LS sedan in 2006 and replaced the transmissions in those cars as well, no questions asked.

A very good friend of mine got one of those first Tundras back in March and I think he's up to about 15k miles on it. Hasn't experienced any of the issues that have been going around the net. Thing runs like a champ.

BTW, actually saw a guy plowing with an 5.7 SR-5 4X4 during the big storm we got over the weekend. We got about 9" of snow and then freezing rain on top of it and once the storm subsided Sunday morning we found snow banks blocking the driveways from the night before, they must've been 16 -20" tall. The neighbor across the street from me hired the plow driver and he went through the bank no problemo. No tire spinning, no bogging down, didn't even look like it was breaking a sweat.

nippononly

Yes, but doesn't it include everything classified as a "truck"? So that would include some interesting fare, wouldn't it? Not sure when all the exact release dates were, but what about the new CRV? The Acadia? The 2008 Grand Caravan/T&C? The first two have changed the fortunes of their parent companies for the better, and are leading their respective brands for sales increases etc. The T&C offers innovative new features not offered anywhere else in the segment.

And that's just three off the top of my head. there must be others. Not to mention, Toyota had to offer totally unprecedentedly HUGE cash rebates all year long to increase Tundra sales despite it being an all-new model; CRV just went ahead to top its segment in annual sales and lead the Honda brand for single-model year-over-year sales increases without a single incentive of any kind. Significant, if you ask me. And this despite Honda's difficult decision NOT to offer an optional gas guzzling V-6 (I believe the CRV is the fuel economy leader in its segment, except for the Escape Hybrid), while the huge-engined Tundra models average about 16 mpg.

ruking1

Given the 2020 35 mpg fuel standard, why would anyone get a truck that was not a diesel and starting off with a min of 25-40% better than the EPA for a Tundra? EPA 14/18, 16/20. 25% would yield 18/23, 20/25 mpg.

My take is Toyota Tundra would be a segment killer application with diesel V8 with 30/35 mpg!!

gagrice

BTW, actually saw a guy plowing with an 5.7 SR-5 4X4 during the big storm we got over the weekend.

That truck will not be worth much after a winter of plowing snow. 1/2 ton is light in the chassis for that kind of abuse. The Tundra is a light frame to start with. Snow plows should be used on minimum 3/4 ton HD PU trucks. I bet he voided most of his warranty mounting that plow on it.

anythngbutgm

We've got guys plowing streets with Explorers and Nissan Frontiers. Probably not as capable, but they also get the job done apparently. :shades:

ruking1

The true test is will those same trucks be plowing 5/10 years from now!?

stever

Never buy a used truck that looks like it once held a plow on the front. Talk about severe duty cycles....

gagrice

Spoken like a true Alaskan. The truck may look good on the outside. Check to see if it ever had snow plow mounts. It will be damaged from plowing snow. About the only trucks that held up year after year plowing snow were the old military power wagons. Even a 3/4 ton will be stressed by a plow.

I cannot imagine destroying a $45k Tundra plowing snow. Buy a 5 year old Super Duty and trash it plowing snow.

anythngbutgm

This one was a barbones DC with the 5.7. At least that is what I could tell by the base models wheels. Those can be had for around 30.

Plus, there was a contractors logo on the door so I'm guessing this thing does double duty.

gagrice

Yeah, you can get the Double Cab SR5 with 5.7 here in San Diego for under $25k. They still have a $4k rebate sitting on all Tundras. According to the dealer I bought my Sequoia from they cannot give the Tundra away. You can get the once popular Crew Max Limited 4X4 with 5.7 for under $35k. You got to feel for the guys that got in a big hurry and paid $45k for them.

larsb

so Tundra sales for December will be Zero? If they can't "give em away...." then that must be the number we are shooting for.........

"Tundra sales up 43.2% in November to 14,988"

gagrice

"Tundra sales up 43.2% in November to 14,988"

That is over the old Tundra that was not really a very popular truck at all. They are still short of their goal for the first year of the Tundra. And I was repeating what the finance guy was telling me at ONE Toyota dealership. You are ignoring the fact that Toyota has a $4000 rebate sitting on the hood of all Tundra PU trucks. That is twice as much as GMC has on the hood of most of their trucks. The most GMC is offering is $3k on a loaded Denali PU truck. I am sure they did not like selling me that Sequoia for nearly $5000 under invoice. That is what Toyota is having to do to unload their big vehicles. Should not be a surprise to you. You are always cheering for the downfall of the big vehicles.

nippononly

"downfall of the big vehicles", woo hoo! LOL

I hope this next Sequoia is the LAST generation. When will Toyota figure out these are a niche vehicle at best? Let people buy Suburbans instead.

And if they can't maintain sales and eliminate the massive cash on the Tundra's hood, then they should either abandon that model in a few years as well, or accept that it will sell 100K a year, kill the rebates, and call it a day.

Now if they could be the first to market with a really good diesel for the Tundra, that might change things a bit. In that case I would like to see the diesel be the ONLY engine for the Sequoia.

Come to your senses Toyota!

gagrice

In that case I would like to see the diesel be the ONLY engine for the Sequoia.

I understand that the Land Cruiser sold in the UK is only available with a V8 Diesel. I would be happier if my Sequoia was diesel. I really think the new Sequoia is over the top size wise. Though it is still smaller than the Suburban. The Sequoia gives up 17 inches and about 1000 lbs to the new Suburban. The Expedition EL is the same size as the Suburban. So there are still bigger choices than Toyota's biggest SUV. I only bought the Sequoia as an interim vehicle until a good diesel choice is available. I am not thrilled with the direction GM has gone with the Suburban. I liked the generation that ended in 1999.

louiswei

I think the $4k rebate is an outdated information, according to Edmunds, Toyota is currently running a $2k rebate on all new Tundras. It was a while ago that Toyota was "rebate-happy" on the Tundras for a couple months but they scaled it back a bit after that.

Also, according to edmunds, GMC is current offering $2k rebate on the Sierras with Chevy running $2k on all Silverados as well.

I am guessing here but I'll bet my money on the reason you got that Sequoia for nearly $5k under invoice because you bought it right before the new one is about to hit the dealer lot. So yes, your dealer was unloading those old Sequoias at any price possible. I would be surprised if you can get that same deal if you go back to the same dealer and shop for those new (and humongous) Sequoias.

I agree that we are witnessing the downfall of big vehicles. Good to see that too.

louiswei

If there are people willing to buy those big gas guzzlers with gas price about to hit $4 per gallon then I say let them. TMC is a full-line auto manufacture so if there is a market for something, naturally they will want to provide a product for it, They have enough resource and funding for it.

I don't blame Toyota providing heavy rebate on the Tundras in order to capture a piece of that market, it is the biggest segment nevertheless. In other words, Toyota right now is "buying" their way into that market.

I do agree a good diesel V8 could be the game changer in the full size pickup segment and whoever gets that first is going to be the winner for years to come.

nippononly

Have they changed the Suburban a lot? Seems like after all the fanfare had settled down from the GMT900 updates, the one model on this platform not changed that much was the 'Burb. Too bad there is no hybrid version, although it looks like even with the hybrid powertrain, the Tahoe 4x4 only pulls 20 mpg. What updates to the Suburban have you objected to?

Oh, and yes, Toyota has diesels worldwide for all its trucks, but given the lead time and the 2+ years we have had high gas prices, it has been EXTREMELY lazy IMO about developing them for use in the American models (LC, Sequoia, Tundra, Tacoma, perhaps 4Runner as well?). First they said they would have a diesel for the Tundra by mid-2008 for the '09 model year, coming on-line within 18 months of that date for other models, now the latest word is maybe never. :sick:

louiswei: I am fairly sure there are still configurations of the Tundra with a $3500 cash rebate, and that's the '08. The remaining '07s (of which there are plenty around) have even larger rebates.

The most popular configurations (4-door, non-MegaCabs) do have lower rebates, but even then the $2000 you mention is historically high for Toyota for a new model.

louiswei

Nope, Edmunds is showing $2k throughout the lineup. I can't find any information on the Toyota website so I'll take Edmunds' word for it.

Yes, $2k is high on any Toyota whether it's new or old. But like I said, Toyota is currently buying their way into that market and they've realized that full size pickups don't sell without a hefty rebate.

nippononly

I believe the new Silverado DID sell quite nicely for GM earlier this year without anything in the way of rebates. I understand that Toyota is trying to buy its way into the segment, but the old saying comes to mind: "if you sell your soul to the devil...". That's why I said they ought to just set the price and see how it does on its own merit. Stop giving away the farm to sell some trucks. I bet they will still see sales as good as the old Tundra, which sold to the tune of 120K per year, not REAL far off the annual sales of the Tacoma at that level.

kdhspyder

I have a feeling that it's a timing issue regarding diesels for heavy vehicles.

First the question of the fuel ( ULSD ) had to be decided and implemented. Done
Then the emissions criteria had to be decided. That's done.
Then the question of fuel economy standards had to be settled. Done today.

So now all the limiting variables are identified in order that a vehicle maker can go forward with a national policy that can be put in place in all 50 states. Since Toyota is such a large diesel manufacturer throughout the world there's no reason not to expect diesel vehicles to begin to show up in the truck and SUV lines.

Two other factors are also pretty clear now.
The devalued US$ makes it much more attractive to build the vehicles here rather than import them.
Until the 'chicken tax' is revoked no real trucks will be imported.

ruking1

I would agree. Given Toyota's history of starting out with the P/U T100, a diesel V8 in a Tundra is an absolute no brainer. A turbo diesel V8 is an absolute no brainer. A twin turbo V8 is an absolute no brainer. The part that would probably present the MOST challenges would be the "bullet proof" automatic transmission/s MATED to the above diesels.

louiswei

Well, Toyota was definitely NOT satisfied with 120k per year for the old Tundra that's why they muscled up the new one and set a goal to sell 200k units for its first year. Buying their way into the market is a lot different than give out farms, it's more like in order to get the bigger farm they first must sell the smaller farm. They have to give some in order to gain some.

Yeah, 120k is not far off the Tacoma annual sales but do you know how small the midsize truck market is compare to the full size market? The full size truck market is the largest automobile market in the United States and the only one that Toyota had not find a way to crack it.

nippononly

Yes, but well over half of those full-size pick-up sales each year are to commercial work fleets. And Toyota, in typical fashion, didn't build a work version of the new Tundra. Where are the trims with vinyl floors and seats, hand cranks and fixed rear windows, and the radio delete option? When I can get a strippo Tundra 4-door for $18,995, then I will know Toyota is finally taking on the commercial buyers with any seriousness.

As for retail full-size P/U sales, it is what, 250-300K each for Ford and Chevy each year? Tundra will be doing very very well to pull 200K sales, since they will almost all be retail.

louiswei

And Toyota, in typical fashion, didn't build a work version of the new Tundra.

Well, Toyota did with the new Tundra. To increasing commercial sales were the big goal from the get-go with this new truck.

nippononly

And yet, the cheapest Tundra I can find with an 8-foot bed has a V-6 (underwhelming to the professionals I am referring to), is a short cab (fits only 2-3 people), and has such niceties as full cloth seats, dual-zone A/C, and outside temp gauge? Not to mention, the side airbags are nice and all, but would probably be deleted for monetary savings if that were an option, by many commercial buyers.

That's $22,6. Quite a bit above the figure I mentioned.

Add the requisite-in-this-biz V-8, and the price jumps to $23,7. And you still can't seat four people...

They need a proper work trim if they want to pull in the commercial buyers.

gagrice

think the $4k rebate is an outdated information, according to Edmunds, Toyota is currently running a $2k rebate on all new Tundras.

I show $4000 rebate on all 2007 Tundra PU trucks for San Diego zip codes. That is here on Edmund's. I got Nearly $5000 under invoice playing hardball with the Internet sales people. Most dealers would give me a good price on the phone. Poway Toyota quoted in an email. That is who I bought from. No sitting in a cubicle waiting on some chump to try and jack me around. Using the Internet and email is the only way to buy vehicles. Knowing what I know now, I would not get the NAV or Entertainment in the Limited. Not compatible with XM or Sirius and not very good routing with the NAV. I believe they have upgraded the 2008 Sequoia electronics.

I don't think you will see the downfall of big vehicles in our lifetime. Too many people do not want to be scrunched into a sardine can. I think these new regulations will spawn even bigger vehicles to get around the rules. Anyone for a bus to drive to the mall? They already have the E85 loophole in place.

anythngbutgm

I wonder if Toyotas stake in Isuzu will help secure a strong, reliable drivetrain. Who does Isuzu source their trannys from?

BTW, Toyota trannys are not as problematic as forum folks would like us to believe. A simple software update will smooth out the eratic shifting which has been the biggest legitimate complaint I've read.

And, last but not least, those who think the problems are only related to Toyota, check out some other forums like those fancy new GM'ers and Fords with the co-developed 6 speed trannys. The same things plague those as well. In the end, it is driven by gas mileage, cars are programmed to shift early to maximize mileage.

Want the best of both worlds, drive one of Nissans new CVT's sometime. They're fantastic.

anythngbutgm

Check out the rebates on 2007 GM trucks in your area, 3000 bucks back on SIlverados/Sierras and 5 grand on Classic models of the same year.

Heck, you want a real bargain, look at left over Caddy's, 4, 5 thousand bucks on those puppies, 7500 on those lame XLR models that nobody bought.

gagrice

co-developed 6 speed trannys. The same things plague those as well. In the end, it is driven by gas mileage, cars are programmed to shift early to maximize mileage.

I agree:
It was the erratic shifting of the Mercedes 7 speed that brought me to test the Sequoia. I was set on buying a GL320 CDI. I loved the acceleration and power of the diesel Mercedes. It was the constant down shifting when you let off the accelerator that I did not like. When I let off the gas I expect to feel like the car is in a free wheel mode. The Mercedes would shift down and slow you down. It may have been that one used GL320 CDI. I only drove that one as they are not for sale in CA new. It was only frustration and an hour to kill that brought me into a Toyota dealership. The only thing they had I liked was the Sequoia. The very pleasant salesman insisted I take a test drive. That is what sold me on that drive train. Much better than my previous 05 GMC hybrid PU. I would have bought from that nice fellow except that dealership was not aware that no one was buying big SUVs. They wanted almost $4000 more than I paid for mine.

I still would not buy the 2008 Sequoia for at least a couple years. Not sure if I like the looks of it from the pictures posted here.

To me the best auto transmission is the DSG used in some VWs and Audis. The TipTronic in my Mercedes Sprinter was also a good transmission.

gagrice

It looks like if I wanted a Duramax diesel truck it would be a good time to shop for one. It still does not compare to the hit Toyota took on my Sequoia. Though I believe I could beat the GM dealer down as far if I wanted one of their trucks.

It is a good time to buy a large SUV or Truck. Lousy time to buy an economy vehicle.

anythngbutgm

"I still would not buy the 2008 Sequoia for at least a couple years. Not sure if I like the looks of it from the pictures posted here."

I really think the decision to renew the Sequoia is going to bite Toyota in the end, they should have at least waited until diesel power was available and just milked another year or two out of the first design. Plus, if they've got a 7 passenger Sequoia sitting on the lot for say 50 grand, why the heck would anybody pony up another 15 grand for a Land Cruiser? Or 25 grand for an LX570? And both of those are brand new as well.

I think Toyota went way too truck crazy in 2007 and in the end something is going to give. Either it's going to be at the expense of Sequoia sales or the failure of the next generation Land Cruiser.

louiswei

I show $4000 rebate on all 2007 Tundra PU trucks for San Diego zip codes.

I am sorry, I guess we were talking about 2008 Tundras since we are already 4 months into the new MY.

gagrice

The dealer I bought my Sequoia from in October only had 2007 Tundras on the lot. That was their reference to being a hard sell here. On the Sequoia thread one person has sealed the deal on a 2008 Sequoia Platinum at $3000 under MSRP. So I don't think they will bring any premium out of the gate.

louiswei

I don't remember when exactly the 2008 Tundra was released, it could be September, October, or even November. Generally speaking, most new MY car will hit the dealer lot around the September time frame.

As for 2008 Sequoia Platinum, at $3k under MSRP that is still about $3k OVER the invoice. That's a big difference than the $5k under invoice that you got for the previous model.

gagrice

You are absolutely right. I doubt I would buy a 2008 Sequoia as getting one at a price I would pay is very unlikely. In fact I was surprised the dealer came down as low on the first offer. It was just the right day I guess to get me to part with my cash. I like the vehicle in spite of the 15 MPG fuel economy.

louiswei

The Venza was designed and engineered in the U.S. and will be assembled next year at Toyota's Georgetown plant in Kentucky, which currently builds the Camry and the Avalon.

The Venza is thought to be an evolution of the Toyota FT-SX, a midsize crossover concept that was displayed at the 2005 Detroit Auto Show. The FT-SX was based on the Avalon platform.

Toyota said the Venza will accommodate five occupants and will be "a unique blend of sedan and sport-utility vehicle, offering...easy ingress and egress, a carlike ride and functional utility."



Source: 2008 Detroit Auto Show Preview: 2009 Toyota Venza

My take: Ladies and gentlemen, we present you the Camry X... I think what this is to the Camry is like what the Matrix is to the Corolla, not awfully exciting but another new model means more sales.

kdhspyder

This fills the gap 'tween the RAV and the Highlander so that now there is a full lineup of crossovers ready to step in and replace the BOF SUVs if fuel jumps out of sight at any time.

Here is an interesting stat...since 2003 a million buyers annually have given up buying SUVs and trucks. The total market is relatively unchanged except for this year so this means that these 1 million buyers are getting into other vehicles. The plethora of crossovers from every maker is pretty obvious but that number gives some substance to the switcheroo that's going on. It affects all the BOF vehicle makers.

All the vehicle makers better be ready when those SUVs of the late 90's and early 2000's are ready to be retired. It may be 2 yrs, 3 yrs or later but sooner or later these BOF vehicles will give out or give in to the rise in fuel prices.

ruking1

Indeed Gagrices response to your post might be the indicator that I meant to convey, since most oems post very little information about component specifications, such as Automatic Transmissions, other than 7 speeds.

The 7 speed automatic transmission mated to a MB E20, ( I have heard and) is reputed to be one of the "STANDARD bearers" on this issue! It is well thought out and executed, no expense spared, robust WORKS just incredibly well , all the yada, yada a marketing type trolling for descriptions past superlative could want. Too bad it does not have good translation or transposition to the MB SUV!?

mackabee

I doubt it will "bite Toyota in the end" from the looks of it and the way it's selling we have another home run on our hands.

We got three in on monday and they are all gone by wednesday. More on the way and 5 are presold.
The Landcruiser won't make much of an impact as we don't sell many in this country to begin with. And it's not 15 grand more. Try 25 grand more. Loader cruisers are coming in at 71k plus.
Mackabee

ruking1

At best I think having the regulatory attitude of so called RIDDING the roads of bigger vehicles is midguided.

To make a long story short, there is a sizable population that gets high teens to low 20's in a Corolla sized vehicle.

Conversely,I know a sizable Chevrolet Tahoe Suburban populations that gets 20-22 mpg in a (gasser) V8. Just think what a V8 diesel tuned to that segment might do with 20-40% better mileage!? 26-31 mpg!!! AND carry 8/9 people? WOW!!

cruiser69

Well, its all in how you drive of course. Im sure it is possible to get 20-22 in Tahoe/Suburban....but its hearsay of course. Unless its done in a controlled study group like a magazine test, its hard to believe. Maybe at 54 miles an hour, downhill with the wind to your back. According to major magazine tests of the so called miracle cylinder management system in the GM 5.3, the overall MPG has been well under the EPA and manufacturer claims. Even quoted as disappointing in mixed driving.

I think a real world mixed driving report for the average, uneducated, lead footed consumer is more like 13 miles per gallon. How do i get that average? Take MT and AutoW--k's averages and subtract 2 miles per gallon. Thats being generous. Here in the U.S. we are what i like to call a 3/4 throttle society. Meaning 3/4's of the vehicles you see at a traffic light usually take off faster than hell only to slam on the brakes at the next light. Most full size buyers seem like they could care less about economy, but to be fair, i have seen a lot of Prius buyers slam on the gas from stoplights too, then whine about poor economy.

ruking1

..."Well, its all in how you drive of course"...

I am glad you agree with me. However, it is funny how you favor one and not the other. In one sentence, you say one should do a controlled study since the figures aren't to be believed ("heresay" to use your words) and then further on you say that the 13 mpg figure (uncontrolled SWAG) is fully valid!!?? . The word disingenuous comes to mind. Indeed you missed my point that one can get similar mileages using either, i.e., which is more/less 20=20? . IT is the SAME!!!? Does this mean either can get the same RANGE ? Well look at your above quote!

Indeed there is a fair amount of dissatisfaction, if these mileage boards are to be believed. Some folks traded perfectly good so called more consumptive cars/trucks to so called less consumptive COMPACT vehicles and got essentially better mpg with the more consumptive and NON compact vehicles.

So if an SUV can get 20-31 mpg and and one needs/wants the segment, why should one have to be confined to a small car that gets 20-31 mpg: if one operative behavior is what mpg one actually gets. And we haven't even gotten into the economics yet.

rockylee

Holy Smokes !!!! What is that thing made out of painted paper mache ???? :surprise:

-Rocky

rockylee

Quality tailgate !!!!

I just don't want to hear the B.S. from the toyota crowd when it comes to quality and durability. :surprise:

-Rocky

kdhspyder

Who cares... it's a damn tailgate. If the vehicle runs 150K mi with little or no extra cost, tows like a devil and is a blast to drive everything else is minutiae. The buyers will come back over and over again and in 15 yrs no one will ever remember a few first year tailgates.

rockylee

-Rocky

gagrice

Nice try at spinning away the Toyota Tundra problems. The difference is people that buy trucks expect them to last longer than the 3 year car buyers. You will not see the repercussions on these problems until the buyers go for a new truck. The ones with Tundra problems will go back to a Big 3 truck. Who cares that the Tundra will tow 2 lbs more than a 1/2 ton Chevy? If you want to tow 10,000 lbs you should buy a HD truck with a diesel engine. Not some gas guzzling Tundra. I see the Tundra going the way of the Titan. All show no go...... Next years Tundra sales will tell the story.

rockylee

Did you bump your head gagrice ???? :surprise:

I'm shocked you hadn't swallowed every drop of that Yota Kool-Aid. You might be one we can save yet. :P

-Rocky

gagrice

Fair and balanced most of the time. I think that Toyota has really gone down hill with their new generation Camry and Tundra platforms. My Sequoia is built on the original platform. A much more solid piece of equipment. My only complaint is the electronics (NAV/Stereo) are old technology. Not up to the other manufacturers.