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Comments
Given the dynamics of the increasing cost per mile driven and looking forward (showing direction, not necessarily an editorial comment) to the line in the sand 2020 35 mpg standards and looking back to a 1987 Toyota Landcruiser platform, a big mistake was selling it at the 14 year mark and app 250,000 miles. At the time, the structure and body looked easily to have 16 years left for a total of projected 30 years before any major/minor work.
True the cost per mile driven for fuel is higher, but compared to the current cost per mile driven (total cost) a bargain if 50% less can be called a bargain. Also @ 2020 selling it as a true orignal blasted from the past might have been an option. Who knows perhaps a vendor might have a good turbo diesel/tranny combination.
http://blogs.cars.com/kickingtires/2007/12/recall-alert-27.html
I learned about twenty years ago, that often people who present themselves as progressive and open-minded, are actually the most narrow-minded individuals. They counter point-by-point discussions with eye-rolling and name-calling.
Bill P.
-Rocky
Customer: The doors are falling off my Sienna!
Toyota: La! La! La! La! La! La! I can't hear you!
Customer: The tailgate's cracking on my Tundra!
Toyota: La! La! La! La! La! La! I can't hear you!
Customer: The body is coming apart on my FJ Cruiser!
Toyota: La! La! La! La! La! La! I can't hear you!
Customer: My Avalon steers and shifts funny!
Toyota: La! La! La! La! La! La! I can't hear you!
Customer: The engine blew in my Camry because it sludged up!
Toyota: La! La! La! La! La! La! I can't hear you!
Rocky and Lemko: Toyota's not all that!
Toyota Fanboys: La! La! La! La! La! La! We can't hear you!
-Rocky
Don't care. If I wanted to know about GM recalls I would go to a GM link. The GM defenders spend far more time on Toyota links defending GM then the other way around. If you and rocky don't want to hear about the quality and durability of Toyota perhaps it would help to go to a GM link. But then again you wouldn't hear about quality and durability on the GM Links either
LOL, you are funny. Last time I checked Toyota, leads all automakers in recalls. As far as durability goes I haven't seen a Toyota, from the 1980's in a very long time but I do see plenty of GM, cars from the 1950's 60's, 70's, 80's around here. Probably the reason why I don't see a yota from the 80's is because the sheetmetal is probably a rust colored powder.
Okay, I'll let it rest.........
-Rocky
I was such an owner in a 4 cylinder new 1985 Camry! Consumer Reports (at the time) had RAVE reviews for the MY1985 and either totally ignored data of earlier years of this generation model, or the data gathering methology did NOT allow for relevant information to be documented.
I even changed or had the dealer change the oil every 1,500 miles to 3,000 miles OCI's. While I would like to have said they have fixed it since then, latest indications are the conditions still exist. They still use the engines that have a higher incidence of literally CQQKing oil (aka; coke) This is of course a min of 23 years later. I have flatly refused to consider ANY 4 cylinder power plants from Toyota. While I have had use for mini vans in the distant past, indications are the sludge problems migrated to that Toyota platform also. I6 products didn't seem to have those problems and I had bought a few of those and used 15,000 mile OCI's. NO SLUDGE!!!
Of course, what I6 products are in the current line up? So I hope they have done better with the V8 and V6 product lines. I have no problems conceptually with the I4 products, if one happens to get a sludge a matic that Toyota would replace FREE!! What chance do YOU think there are of that happening!!?? I know what happened to me.
With the advent of the 2020 35 mph fuel standards, fore warned is fore armed.
Toyota: La! La! La! La! La! La! I can't hear you!
You missed
Customer: The transmission doesn't shift/downshift right on my ES/Avalon/Camry!
Toyota: La! La! La! La! La! La! I can't hear you!
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I can go to the GM board posting the following problem but I won't...
Around 1998, GM switched from a "Select Build" method of manufacturing and/or assembling engines to a "Net Build" method, in order to save money on manufacturing and/or assembly. In the Select Build process, pistons and cylinders are matched for size and fit. GM's new "Net Build" method of manufacturing and/or assembly, in contrast, assumes all pistons will fit equally well in all cylinders and does not allow for variations in the size of engine cylinders or pistons. The pistons of slightly varying size (all within spec) are not individually matched with the cylinders of slightly varying size (all within spec).
Excessive “piston slap” occurs because an automobile manufacturer (GM) designs and/or manufactures a defective engine in which the clearance between the piston and cylinder bore is too great. Essentially, the piston moves sideways and “slaps” or “knocks” hard against the cylinder bore and causes damage to the engine pistons and cylinders, excessive smoke emissions, excessive oil consumption, carbon buildup on piston heads, decreased mileage, and a loud and obnoxious “slapping” or “knocking” noise, all of which diminishes vehicle resale value in the trade.
Source: GM Piston Slap
Please don't reply with something like "oh but I never experience that problem with my GM engine" because I bet that most (if not none) of you never experience Toyota engine sludge either.
I've never had piston slap in my Buicks. :P
"This must be the "one" person going around complaining about their sludge, I mean piston slap, problem and making it sound like there are a whole bunch more when there really is just this one case."
"These little things just get exaggerated on the internet."
"It was only a single case and Toyota, I mean GM, already took care of that.
I could point out all these excuses sometimes mouthed by people defending their favorite brand.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
You must be in total denial or did not read my post #1399. (2 before YOURS) You lost your bet.
My 1985 Toyota Camry was a SLUDGE A MATIC!!!!
"because I bet that most (if not none) of you never experience Toyota engine sludge either. "
Yeah right.
your words not mine...So total denial....
But the truth was there were probably far more, especially since you seem to imply I might be the ONLY one. Folks could have EASILY had their whole driving experience with a Toyota (Carmy) and have had the problem, but the sludge was not bad enough for them or the dealer that did the service to have to get into the engine. Indeed at the time mine was mostly dealer serviced. Being as how the dealer did the major tune ups, obviously the procedures did not require them to look into /inspect or tear into the engine. The dealer discovered it quite by accident.
So far the only guy who has experienced Toyota sludge problem in this board is you and you only. I don't think other people have PERSONALLY experienced the problem (if there are you out there please speak up). So based on that bit of the information I don't see how the statement like "because I bet that most (if not none) of you never experience Toyota engine sludge either" failed to describe the situation.
Anyone placing odds on Toyota taking first place in '08? (first as ahead of GM in North American sales).
I say that's not happening anytime soon and probably would never happen.
-Rocky
Mack
If they want to keep the Camry in the game, they had better start shifting the mix away from the LE/XLE "floating Buick" ride to the more controlled ride of the SE. Perhaps in future, instead of one SE-type suspension and four trims of LE-type suspension, it could be the other way around: one "Buick trim" and four trims with SE suspension. And BTW, the Buick references are not mine, and I mean no offense to Buick owners. Two articles I read almost back to back (in AW and Edmunds, I think) called the Camry's ride "Buick floaty".
I am quite sure Toyota will lose its Camry buyers to death of old age just the way Buick's demographic aged, all but killing Buick's sales, unless Toyota does something to make the next Camry more competitive.
And yes, all the posters here employed by Toyota or its dealerships will protest that it is the most popular car in America, but that won't continue if they don't work harder to keep it competitive.
And criticisms that applied to GM in years of old now apply equally if not more to Toyota: how long are you going to keep spitting out those 4-speed autos, 'Yota? The RAV4 4-cyl is down to virtual fuel economy parity with the V-6, partly because of the auto trans having fewer speeds. All the Scions are the same way, 4 speeds if you go with the automatic. Word is many of the Corolla trims with an automatic will still only have 4 forward speeds after the model turnover coming up in about two months.
Meanwhile Honda's cheapest models have had 5-speed autos for a couple of years already...and GM is graduating to almost exclusively 6-speed autos this year, except for the Aveo, isn't it?
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Also, I don't see what's wrong with the Camry lineup. Yes, there are two type of "floaty Camry" versus one "sporty Camry", however, that doesn't mean that Toyota can't produce more SE than XLE and LE if the demands are there. What I would like to see instead is a Hybrid SE because I believe hybrid Camry is going to be a even bigger seller for the next generation.
I have said it and would say it again, Camry owners vote with their wallet instead of keyboards like us enthusiasts and mag editors and that's where it counts. Camry would probably never be the enthusiasts' choice but the reality is that there are people out there (and a lot of them) who just want appliances and have no idea what Inside Line is. But just because they are not as vocal as us doesn't mean that their Benjamins are any less value than ours. When mom is driving back from school with Junior in the back I'll bet that she is not thinking about "how fast can I corner the next turn"...
I'd rather drive many other cars and even SUVs before considering a Camry but one can't deny that Toyota has got the Americans figured out.
Perhaps it is high time it is called "Camry floaty" Toyota appliances seems to garner almost cultural understanding.
Buick is also one of GM's success stories, as it has been consistently been on the more reliable list, year to year.
louiswei: median age of the Canmry buyer is, I believe, 54. That represents a straight march upward from the 1980s. IOW, the folks who buy Camrys are aging right along with the model itself, and eventually (in 10 years or 15?), will stop buying the car in such great numbers. Without new younger buyers to take over buying Camrys, Toyota will witness a drop-off in the popularity of its star model.
In that same timeframe, I believe there is a strong possibility that the latest domestic models (especially GM models) will have turned out to have had a newfound reliability that rivals or exceeds the Japanese, and if that's the case Toyota will have lost the edge it gained over 20 hard-fought years of careful QC and vehicle design.
Add to that the fact that Honda and Nissan are making popular midsize cars without the Camry float that are also reliable and well-built, and you have a formula for trouble. Trouble for Toyota.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
While I have never considered or bought a Buick, it is very hard to ignore the Buick's compelling numbers. I have in the past bought a Camry. Hindsight indicates I would have done better- longer with a Buick. Indeed I have long time family friends who have through the years bought Buicks, and not to confuse the recent posts or mix metaphors, Buicks have been "Maytag" reliable. (when that used to mean something)
Also I think that Toyota's new status as #1 or ahead of GM, imparts a so called perk, in that it is a judgement call by management to how long they can act like GM used to act and still get away with it.
A small example, Toyota has the Toyota, Lexus and Scion lines. GM of course has more lines that but in recent past has closed the Oldsmobile line.
Average Age of Camry Buyers Creeps Into 50s
"1. Camry has become less boxy, more "athletic" since the 90s
2. While keeping its reputation for reliability, affordability
3. 450K Camrys sold in 2006, up about 4% from 2005
4. Miles ahead of the #2 Honda Accord, which sold 354K units last year
5. Now-defunct Ford Taurus was top-selling US-car from 1992-1996"
Anyone who thinks the Camry is more athletic than it was in the 90s has to be high, no question about that in my mind. Now, is the SE more athletic than a 90s LE? Yes, perhaps. That is why they ought to head in that direction, I think. "Float" is very 80s. The SE currently is not a volume Camry trim.
Of the 450K Camrys sold in '06, 12% or about 54K were fleet sales, where Honda had essentially none. Makes the race look a little closer, eh? ;-)
Not to mention the Accord was in its fourth year already. Accord sales have apparently taken off since the model redo a few months back. Maybe we should see what '08 retail sales look like....
ruking: with all due respect to Buick, a lot of the reliability quotient has been as a result of their using technologically outdated powertrains, which have been in service so long that all of the typical issues associated with powertrain development have been generally eliminated. That is a trade-off one can certainly make by choice, and one that IMO is often worth making.
Toyota's current 2.4L/auto combo has been around for quite a while (up from 2.2L in 2002, from 2.0L in what, 1993?), and has gained a lot of reliability by the same evolutionary process. OTOH, today it is notably outdated technologically, and its FE and specific output numbers tell the story clearly.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Depends on the region, in LA almost 50% of the Camries I see are SE.
Anyone who thinks the Camry is more athletic than it was in the 90s has to be high
I am not so sure about that, the Camry SE I drove not that long ago is definitely sportier than my mom's '99 Camry LE.
Agree that the Toyota 2.4L is outed compare to other 4-bangers in this class performance wise. However, it is still very competitive in terms of FE figures. Hopefully the next Camry will debut with a brand new 4 cylinder engine mated to a 6-speed tranny.
I have to amend my earlier comment with a small note: Toyota did update the 2.4L/auto powertrain to have 5 forward speeds in the earlier '00s, and that went without a hitch. But as anyone with a bone to pick with Toyota will tell you, the release of the new 6-speed auto with the V-6s last year did not go so smoothly.
I am all for sticking with proven powertrains and equipment if the vehicle in question meets my criteria for buying a car. I will take that over unreliable any day. The FE of the Camry 4-cylinder is just competitive enough with its peers that I might consider it if I were looking for a midsize car. Thing is, why opt for an engine with 15 hp less and the same FE numbers, especially when smoother engines exist?
lousiwei: contrary to your observations in the LA area, the SE is not the volume trim of the Camry, the LE is.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
With this generation Camry I think we've managed to lower the average age. There is a lot of young 'uns buying this car in all five available flavors.
The base, LE, XLE, and Hybrid may share the same suspension but they are still the sales leaders. The SE is a joy to drive but only appeals to us enthusiasts due to it's stiffer suspension. I do hope the next generation is the Aurion and they offer a few more sport variations as they do in New Zealand and Australia. The interior looks just like our Camry SE.
:shades:
Mackabee
Like how many owners know what body integrity is or means? To me it means how well is the car put together, are the gaps in the hood and trunk even? are the doors aligned? You get the idea.
I'm not saying Toyota doesn't have any problems but overall I don't think there is a better made car out there other than Toyota and Honda.
Mack :shades:
Mackabee
Now, my front brakes sometimes did make the odd grinding noise that some other people experienced. But whenever I rotated the tires myself, I could never see anything indicating an actual problem, nor was there any pulsation when braking (like I had with my '90 Sable when its front rotors warped).
I'm sure that you don't even understand why the FJ frames are bending and under what conditions they're bending do ya Rocky?
But should I be surprised?
A one year old truck cannot 'rot' through in one year it's physiclly impossible unless it was left in the ocean for months. I was in the steel business for 20+ years and I sold steel to all the vehicle makers. If you believe that it's possible then you're just gullible. Hello do ya think maybe somebody intentionally put the vehicle in salt water or maybe photo-chop-shopped a picture?
The first sentence is true. The second sentence is false.
The rest is gibberish based on a false statement.
They don't let facts get in the way of a good story :sick:
Oh, btw both vehicles are in the infamous 'sludge' time frame and neither vehicle had any issues since I had the oil changed every 3-5000 miles religiously.
PS
Merry Christmas!!!
What do you mean by skimpy? were the pads wore out and needed replacement? what please be specific.
We replaced my son's 2002 Prelude brake pads at 80k miles after a state inspection. They didn't fail the car but mentioned they would need replacing soon. 80K on the original pads is pretty good don't you think?
Mackabee
:shades:
Of course part of the settlement was they admitted no wrong doing. So INDEED one might conclude it might be "legal gibberish" under the terms of the settlement, if I was accusing them of wrongdoing (which I am NOT). They also didn't offer free brake pads and rotor replacement (as part of the settlement),, so I would guess technically the checks they sent me are not for brake pads and rotors work, just part of "some settlement" of which they admit no wrongdoing!!?? :shades: :lemon: Hence your statement of gibberish based on a false premise.
On the 1985 Camry I also should probably add they did under secret warranty, (sanctioned by corp Toyota) , change my shocks, struts, parts of front tranmissions, brake pads, rotors, gave a free alignment. They also further credited me for abnormal tire wear. They also attempted (no charge) to fix the conditions where I used to get 32 mpg, yet it dropped for some reason to less than 20 mpg, but could effect no remedy.
So like I have said in earlier posts, just as long as they fix or stand behind their product/s, they can whistle the French national anthem and call it "Take me out to the ball game" for all I care. So for some reason it was a line in the sand for them to NOT pay for the sludge repair (among other problems,) the dealer had to make to keep the 1985 Camry on the road, since the incident happened like a few hundred miles passed the warranty period. Strange coincidence would you not say!?
This issue has already been settle in court, so really if one does not want to believe what I say, just ask your friendly local neighborhood class action suit legal eagle. Point being: what I am saying is verifiable.
So that is THEIR (Toyota's) story and they are sticking to it!! Me? Forewarned is forearmed. What each of you wants to do is up to.... YOU.