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Comments
Very small light duty components. Rotors etc... Probably a late 80s early 90s Accord.
80k miles on original brakes seems good to me. I had to do the brakes on my 98 Suburban at 25k miles. It was 5 years old at the time.
I don't know what to expect from my new Sequoia. The brakes seem very good.
That actually would please me to no end.
On the flip side, I have no issues getting 60,000 miles from 5 each (at one time) Toyota Landcruisers, though that is 20,000 miles short of what would seem good to you and me. Auto rag tests at the time claimed 60-0 stopping distances of 126 ft!! So it is clear, they are not incapable of putting on very capable hardware.
I have a friend who is a major city fire supervisor (brass,) that gets 11,000 miles on his pads and changes rotors every other brake job on his Toyota Landcruiser.his is the same year as one of mine) !!?? Since he is not hooked to a fire truck/vehicle in his response, 24/7, and while I have never ridden with him in his response, he does have emergency lights in his private auto!!
Way off topic, but really highlights the issue, I am on (oem) brake pads and rotors with 100,000 miles with more than half remaining front brake pad materials and app half remaining rear brake pad materials on a VW TDI.
Forget to add under the time limit.
Any TLC enthusiast will tell you the brake pads and rotors are a distinctive weak point. So evidently Toyota is continuing the trend after the "pay outs"
As for a so called stop gap measure, I have since gone to so called "better" aftermarket alternatives. Actually at the time the Toyota dealer also recommended going to a TRD brake pad product. The rotors while for me have been good, are a bit iffy:
If they have enough material left and IF you have not warped them and IF they meet other technical specifications you MAY (not recommended by normal dealers) use them for a more than one brake pad change.
Or is there a oem substitute (with different P/N) that will fit, that HAS the new 100,000 mile brake pad material.
Indeed instead of sending me the checks, it would have been far cheaper for them to give me a coupon for a % off to free for those new oem longer lasting rotors and brake pads, hopefully the reasoning is obvious.
Actually, an excellent question for KDHSpyder, as I remember, he is in the auto business employeed by the very same oem umbrella?
Going to an aftermarket vendor for such basic items: such as brake pads and rotors requires keeping up with at least that vendors' (as a minimium) changes..... TOO much information now a days!!! AKA PITA.
:shades:
Toyota sees bright future as world number one (AFP)
Well, I have, but that's beside the point. If you check with your service department, you will discover that Toyota changed the brake design after release for the '97 and '98 Camrys. They did it around the year '00. I have two close friends who had '97-'98 4-cylinder Camrys that have cursed those brakes for many a year. When replacement time came, both switched to Accord. They both got the letter from Toyota asking them to come in to their dealer for updated brakes, which were somewhat better than the originals. The grinding that 210delray mentioned was the signal on that model to hit the dealer service bay again...
Toyota has had many years to learn about designing brakes better, but are slow to learn this lesson due to weight considerations. What I believe is happening is they are designing their cars to have "just enough" brakes, in order to keep weight down. Ask 90s 4Runner owners about "just enough" braking - if you want to avoid constantly having warped rotors, you do the aftermarket upgrade early on those models (especially the '96-'02s).
And rather than do as so many do here and insert your own anecdote, concluding it must be the normal experience for everyone, you could research the issue with Toyota since you actually have the resources available (work for Toyota or one of its dealers I believe?).
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
That's the factor of "minimization" that I've used in the past. The imports started life as smaller, fewer features, as econoboxes as carmags and CR called them.
But minimization is done by all companies and sometimes they get caught and sometimes they don't. It's easy to overlook the "get caughts" on our brand with which we are more comfortable.
A friend has a Camry wagon with brake problems since it was new; it's a mid90s IIRC.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
As much as folks want to bill all these brake issues so called technology "rocket science" , this is really fluid dynamics (with the bean counters in almost full control) . Are there technological upgrades/improvements? Absolutely, and I would hope so!! So again really there are multiple information sources to verify some of the anecdotal and far more prevalent problem area's, i.e., brake systems ( pads and rotors). Indeed the technical information is far closer to addressing the issues at hand. The fact that it had to hit the legal system and go through those waste full and consumptive procedures with adjudications such as, awards, settlements, pay outs, etc. with lawyers getting their exorbitant hourly rates and up to 40% of the actual pay outs, shows how persistent and stubborn the problems really are.
So for example, if Toyota had so called "taken care" of my engine sludge problems on that 1985 Camry (23 years ago), chances are I would still be driving Camrys and a lot more Toyota products. So really a question one has to ask how many products can one go through in 23 years time. then do what you have to do as an oem. I have pretty much guaranteed no Camry brake and sludge problems on the Toyota Camry, as I haven't owned one in a long time. (23 years) If that was the intended outcome, then the results were achieved in my case.
I have asked this question before. Why does the Prius use drum brakes on the rear wheels of all models? That includes their Touring model. They have been tested as below average braking. Yet in the UK the Prius has 4 wheel Disk brakes. Sounds like a case of cutting corners for the less than discriminating driver in the USA. How much per car does Toyota save with this minimization in safety?
So one is a question of design (Toyota, Honda in some cases), the other is a question of cost-cutting beyond the point of being a good idea (the Detroit 3, for the most part). Either way, the product you buy is compromised, but then, I suppose anything as complaex as a car must ultimately be a compromise of design and cost priorities.
Having said that, we should look most (IMHO) at the product mix, as it is the product offered that will ultimately ensure success or failure in the marketplace - most consumers are clueless about this behind-the-scenes stuff we have been talking about.
I think Toyota does have a good product mix for this transition away from trucks that is gradually taking place. But as far as the intentional design parameters of the Camry (the floaty ride we were talking about, more hard or cheapish materials inside than direct competitors), I think Toyota may be giving away future buyers 10 or 15 years out, if they do not change course somewhat.
gagrice: rear drums are good for saving the automaker money, but they are also good for saving the consumer money in purchase price and in future upkeep. How hard would a Prius normally be driven anyway? Enough to remark on the lesser stopping power of rear drums, when the fronts do so much more of the stopping anyway?
I WOULD like to see Toyota go to standard rear discs on some more expensive/harder duty models though, starting with the Tacoma. Thing is, Toyota doesn't really have any sport models, so you have to ask how urgent this issue is.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
We wonder why??
The following quotes which you omitted--again, we wonder why??
The V6 version of the company's top-selling Camry, and the four-wheel-drive V8 version of the Tundra pickup, both redesigned for 2007, now rate below average in Consumer Reports' predicted reliability rating. (This rating does not apply to previous model years.) In addition, the all-wheel-drive version of the Lexus GS sedan also received a below average rating. Because Consumer Reports does not recommend models with below-average reliability, these models no longer make CR's "Recommended" list.
Previously, new and redesigned Toyota models were recommended because of the automaker's excellent track record, even if CR didn't have sufficient reliability data on the new model. If Toyota returns to its previous record of outstanding overall reliability, CR may resume this practice. Typically, CR will only recommend a vehicle if the magazine has at least one year of reliability data for that specific model.
The four-cylinder and hybrid versions of the Camry and hybrid, rear-drive version of the GS scored above average in reliability and will continue to be Recommended. Despite these problems, Toyota (including Lexus and Scion) still ranks third in reliability among all automakers,
CR's 2007 survey also shows that the odds of getting a reliable new vehicle from Ford are the best CR has seen in years.
Forty-one of 44 Ford, Lincoln, and Mercury models (93%) in CR's survey scored average or better in predicted reliability. The Ford Fusion and Mercury Milan are among the most reliable cars.
Despite Ford's improvement, U.S. brands account for almost half the models--20 of 44--on CR's list of "Least Reliable" models. Thirteen are from General Motors, 6 from Chrysler, and 1 from Ford. European makes account for 17 models, including six each from Mercedes-Benz and Volkswagen/Audi. Not all models carrying Asian nameplates are reliable, either.
The Hyundai Entourage, Infiniti QX56, Mazda CX-7, Nissan Armada (4WD), Quest, and Titan (4WD), and Toyota Tundra (V8, 4WD) are all on the "Least Reliable" list.
We wonder why??
The following quotes which you omitted--again, we wonder why?? -- are from CR's on line auto reliability results-from which CR bases its "recommended" lists: "
Wonder no longer car fans!!! The article was far more descriptive. (WORSE? BETTER!? ) ...... read...THE REST OF THE STORY!!... Lets see V6 Camry, Tundra, FJ Cruiser,, Scion, LEXUS !!!!!! A slow planned descent into 3rd place??
FORD's getting better than TOYOTA's!!?? JUDAS PRIEST! OFF TOPIC DRIVEL !
AWD GS
V6 Camry
AWD V8 Tundra
I don't see anywhere that FJ Cruiser and Scion models were mentioned. As for the FJ Cruiser cracking issue you need to read more about it besides just looking at those 2 pictures posted.
Since you are a true believer that Ford is getting better than Toyota then next time while car shopping, vote with your wallet.
Very perceptive! Of course, that is what I and others have been saying for several posts- replete with examples. Kind of like the Forest Gump's: You got your shrimp- shrimp small shrimp, normal shrimp, med shrimp, large shrimp, jumbo shrimp; you got your raw shrimp, boil shrimp, fried shrimp, broiled shrimp, sauted shrimp, steamed shrimp.
So indeed, I have dodged the bullets for the forementioned vehicles. But really that is the aim anyway: whatever the OEM. This topic just happens to be Toyota.
When my remaining Toyota Landcruisers give up the ghosts at the 15-30 year marks, it remains to be seen what will be the replacements, if any at all. But an almost no brainer is they will be turbo diesels. I am hoping at that time, there will be a min of 45 mpg Toyota Landcruisers available :shades:
1999 Camry LE
2005 4Runner FWD V6 Limited
2006 IS350
So far nothing but satisfying ownership experience. However, that doesn't mean that Toyota is guaranteed to get my business next time.
(other than do not do RUKING's 15,000 mile OCI's????) :shades:
..."So we've got a 2001 Highlander that had this sludge problem once before and the dealer took care of it... like 4 or 5 years ago. Well, it's happening again but the car is long out of warranty. What should we do? "...
link title
But it gets a little tiresome after a while--especially if someone goes out of their way flogging it ad nauseum.
That sludge thing you brought up was hyped beyond belief--mainly by diehard anti Toyota folks doing as you're doing here.
Really, what's the point, especially when anyone can dredge up problems with any make or model and flaunt them also.
Or anyone can dredge up compliments the same way, and flaunt them too.
But either way, what does it prove?
Like the man said earlier--the best strategy is to vote with our wallets.
Venting one's spleen does little to change the situation.
>Really, what's the point, especially when anyone can dredge up problems with >any make or model and flaunt them also.
Having suffered through many people with anecdotes about GM quality problems implying that their (insert favorite car brand here) has no quality problems and never has and never will from posters in GM discussions, I see the need for reminders here that there are problems with the Toyota model.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I'm not sure how the SilverFox can come to that conclusion as I have owned easily 7 Toyota products, with 2 Toyota Landcruisers currently with literally ZERO issues at 14/12 years old..
I guess things are coming around for the SilverFOX ...eh? . And I am guessing the SF says TS for the owner of the 2001 Toyota Highlander!!??
So what's your point?
FYI, I own both Toyota and GM--and both are fine.
No complaints with either one.
Guess I'm just more aligned with positives than otherwise---eh?.
Must be our weather up here---eh? (We have to think positively!!)
Ah no, I think you'd really have a harder time dealing with problems, if you were dealt the other reality.
Think of what I am saying as a call to really increasing the likely hood of having more positive experiences!!! So yes what I am saying is VERY positive. I am saying go in there with ones eyes wide open. Glad you agree with me about voting with the wallet. Really this is feedback when one gets dealt the "statistical anomoly"
As for the sludge issue being made up.... Very interesting as the Toyota dealer brought mine up to MY attention!!!!!??? I told them there was really no problem, they did the oil changes, and the services, all they needed to do was to fix it and settle up the warranty issues with Toyota corporate. Funny how neither liked that idea. It would have been a total non business issue, if they fixed the problems they caused on their nickel.
What you are advocating is eh everything is just fine, until a victim gets ambushed.
Lexus LS, nice!
:shades:
:shades:
Mack
I do remember seeing an 98 Avalon with 25k miles on her that the owner never changed the oil on it. The oil looked more like chocolate pudding and had the consistency of mud.
It may seem hard to believe but there are people out there that have no clue. One of my customers is a divorced woman whose husband used to take care of all the maintenance on their vehicles. After the divorce she bought a Camry from me and I saw her one day in the service department and stopped by to chat for a moment. She was in for an oil change which she had no clue that it was supposed to be done on the car. She had around 19k miles on the car and luckily we don't think she did any damage on it.
Indeed the 2004 Honda Civic has the oem recommendation of 10,000 miles or OLM.
GM 2001 Corvette oem recommendations are 1 year or 15,000 miles or OLM
I have been running 15,000 mile OCI's on Toyota Landcruisers since 1987. NO sludge issues in 5 Landcruisers 87, 91,94,96, 97.
I run 20,000 to 25,000 miles OCI's on a VW Jetta TDI, because I am a belt and suspenders kind of guy. :shades:
The new OCI's should be a floor of 10,000 miles. Engines should be designed around that as a minimum.
The technology has existed for this for quite a long time.
VW 507.00 specifications are anywhere from 12,000 miles to 30,000 miles OCI's.
Uh...how about...NO!
That's why one should read the owner's manual before deciding not to do oil change every 3-5k miles. Better yet, before one purchases the car, he/she should ask for this information, if 3-5k oil change is not your "thing" then don't buy the car. It's kind of idiotic that when the problem occurs and being asked why he/she didn't perform the oil change every 3-5k miles like the manual suggested then the answer is some like "that's so 30 to 40 years ago". :sick:
Personally I would rather to change my oil every 5k miles rather than 15k like for those BMWs whether I use synthetic or not. Maybe that's why I never had any problem associated with engines for all my cars.
Perhaps you are the one that has been smoking for 30 years?
..."The technology has existed for this for quite a long time." ...
Those Toyota's are NOT designed with this (10,000 miles OCI) specification in mind (you obviously agree, which I am glad, as we are communicating at some level-judging by your sensitivity to the 30-40 year old stuck in the past procedure) , but to my mind SHOULD be. So another reason to vote with the wallet.!? The post should describe where I went. But is funny that the Toyota Landcruisers have been doing just fine with 15,000 mile OCI's!? Or did you miss that point also?
Mileage with those intervals (Toyota's Landcruisers) has been app 630,000 SLUDGE LESS miles. One could hardly call that a short term view or test.
Oh I didn't miss that, but that's like saying "hey, I have been smoking for 30 years and in perfect health so smoking is healthy for you". Does that make sense? If the manual says change oil every 5k miles and you didn't then the engine goes wrong because of that IMO that's your rear, not Toyota's.
but to my mind SHOULD be.
Why "should" they be? They don't have to. Toyota is not making cars for you alone, if for the majority of buyers this is a non-issue then I don't see why Toyota "should".
Like I said, vote with your wallet.
Sans, the Toyota Camry (which has probably been talked to death at this point)
There has been ZERO engine problems with 15,000 20,000, 25,000 miles OCI's!
It's not a complete deal killer for me, but I got better things to do that dump otherwise ok oil at the curb for recycling 3 or 4 times a year.
10k/one year should be the minimum and the manufacturers should just do away with the severe service weasel language too.
If you go to Toyota UK, they'll sell you a service plan which includes taking your car to the dealer once a year or every 10,000 miles. I assume that means you get your oil changed then too. Downloading an owner's manual there seems to say the same thing (just got the pdf for the RAV4).
Rucking1, there are a whole lot harsher realities than car problems you condemn Toyota for--however imagined, contrived, real, or whatever they may be!
Been there, seen a whole lot worse my friend!
Learned by bitter experience what's worth waxing serious wrath about happens to be quite different than yours, I guess---eh?
As for "the sludge issue being made up.... " as you put it..!.
I didn't say it was "made up"!!
All I said was that it was "hyped by some......" who may have felt it might do some damage to a hated offshore automaker, or perhaps just to give vent to a case of buyer's remorse.
It was a tempest in a teapot, blown completely out of proportion to reality....eh?
Also--I advocated nothing of the kind: "What you are advocating is eh everything is just fine......."
So what's your point? If my friend told me that he just robbed a bank and got away with it should I go ahead and rob one as well?
I like to play it safe, if you don't then at the end blame yourself, not the manufacture (that's given if you didn't follow the manual).
I have no problem with 3k, 5k, 7k, 10k or even 15k intervals because 5k will be my own upper limit for the interval anyway. What I was trying to say is that, if you are not following the manual and something goes wrong because of it then don't blame the manufacture, blame yourself.
Didn't say that either, so maybe chill now...eh?
No disagreement here!? Conversely, Toyota had a hard time with this however if my talked to death 1987 Camry can be used as a for instance!! It had DEALER performed 1,500- 3,000 miles OCI's.
Yup it is, now the question is, what does your engine sludge problem have to do with Toyota in 2008?
Sure, of course Toyota should work hard not to have engine sludge problem again with their 2008 models. Besides that what does the engine sludge have to do with Toyota in 2008? If not then can we move on to talk about Toyota in 2008?