Toyota on the mend?

priggly

I would buy the Accord over the problem-ridden Camry any day.

nippononly

http://www.autonews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080124/ANA02/309714026/1078- /emailblast02&refsect=emailblast02

GM 8,885,599 total vehicles sold in 2007, Toyota 9,370,000.

Toyota became the #1 automaker in the world in 2007.

Does this bode ill for their chances of getting QC properly and firmly under control? We will see. It looks like GM is actually going to shape up into a very worthy global rival in a few short years, so we may see the title eventually pass back and forth.

mackabee

"Problem-ridden" That's funny. :shades:

giantkiller

Instead of wandering around Toyota related forums why dont you go to the Honda Accord forums so that you may discover problems on the "problem ridden" 2008 Honda Accord. Let me see, how about VCM vibration? Shift delay?

giantkiller

Or hout about I would get the Honda Accord and Toyota Camry over the POS Chevy Impala SS?

priggly

What has the Impala SS, an excellent car by the way now that you mention it, got to do with the price of silver? What does it have to do with the problem-ridden Camry for that matter?

priggly

Not so funny if you happen to own one.

mackabee

I own two of them. And they are not "problem ridden"

210delray

Same here -- two of them, both great cars! And my 10-year-old Nissan Frontier is still going strong as well.

giantkiller

The Chevy Impala judging by the sheer number of posters with complaints from the "2006 Chevrolet Impala" board is problematic. Therefore your comments about how excellent the Impala is and how "problem ridden" the Camry is questionable. The proof, you own the POS Impala and therefore you are bias to it.

imidazol97

>sheer number of posters

You can't tell anything about a car and problems by the pattern of posts on the internet. The forums tend to attract the posters with problems.

lemko

...my girlfriend has the older version of the Impala, a 2001 model, and has yet to experience any unscheduled service problems. I believe Camry owners are pointing out the specks in the Impala and Accord's eyes while ignoring the plank in the Camry's

nippononly

I believe everyone's getting carried away with everyone else's "planks", when in fact these are three fine cars that will give 99.5% of their owners no problems whatsoever....

Read in the news somewhere that GM has been surprised by the high take rate on the 4-cylinder in the new Malibu, especially 4-cylinder high-zoot models, and will be changing the build mix accordingly. Uh oh, Camry, watch out! :surprise:

imidazol97

>yet to experience any unscheduled service problems

Are you saying that you haven't had any of the sludge problems or transmission shifting/delay problems like the Toyota lines?

>pointing out the specks in the Impala and Accord's eyes while ignoring the plank

I believe you are exactly right. They are all good, serviceable cars unless you happen to get the unlucky one.

gagrice

You are such a peace maker

nippononly

hehehe. ;-)

Seriously though, given the historically low take rate on 4-cylinder Malibus (except for rental cars), I have to believe that the new higher numbers represent some conquest sales from Camry and Accord, maybe Altima too as it is also sold in large proportion in 4-cylinder trim. That's bad news for Toyota.

But some of the Toyota salesmen that frequent the board have stated that Toyota anticipates that Corolla will overtake Camry in the next 5-10 years to become the dominant seller (and they expect compacts in general to do the same), so maybe it's not very important, I dunno.

I believe that once the new Corolla arrives next month the Cobalt will be the oldest compact model out there now, unless you consider the "new" Focus to be nothing more than a slight warming over of the 2000 Focus, in which case that model takes the age prize easily.

hypnosis44

"They are all good, serviceable cars unless you happen to get the unlucky one."

Wouldn't that be true of everything good in life? If the cost benefit ratio is negative, wouldn't you just unload it and move on to another?

gagrice

Hopefully the new Corolla is better looking than the Camry.

louiswei

Hopefully the new Corolla is better looking than the Camry.

Pictures of the new Corolla are all over the web. Check it out and judge it yourself.

To me, it looks like a mini Camry.

Interior is much improved over the current gen though.

nippononly

The interior may appear more stylish to some, but the new Corolla continues a now-15-year tradition at Toyota: cheap hard interiors. The question becomes how much longer Toyota can get away with this when even Honda is putting in nicer-looking and -feeling materials these days....

...or, on the flip side, how much longer most of the rest of the industry will continue THEIR dog-cheap interiors in their under-$25K cars.

mackabee

Here you go gag, this is the 09 Corolla XRS which looks like a mini Camry SE.
Mack.\

mackabee

Excuse me!? Have you seen the interiors of the new Accord? Cheap plastic and cloth all around, everyone is doing it. Even BMW. Hard plastic is all around us. All manufacturers are cutting costs and that's one way to do it. I don't like it and hopefully customer will complain very loudly. I noticed this trend with the 07 Camry that was "decontented" double speak for "cheapened".
:0

gagrice

Thanks, I guess I will never be a sedan guy. I kind of like the LS460, kinda. I think the new "E" and "S" are better looking. Right now if I were to consider a car type vehicle this would be on top of the list.

mackabee

You may want to wait for this then:

gagrice

I just don't like the front end on most of the new generation Toyota vehicles. They also have a lot of blind spots in many of their cars the new Venza included. I can almost bet when you lift that tailgate a 6 footer will have to duck to load and unload. My Sequoia has already nailed my head. The hydraulics do not go up all the way when the temp is below 45 degrees. I got a list when I take it in for the first service.

Quite frankly I do not like much that is coming out the last couple years. It is getting mighty slim picking for us. Hopefully the styling trend improves soon.

colloquor

FWIW . . . re. cheap plastic interiors . . . the "new" Chrysler has finally listened to its customers on this - thankfully, and their vehicles have some of the cheapest plastic interiors around. They're making changing with the 2009 model year to address this. I hope others take note; I would gladly spend an extra $500 on a vehicle if the interior was upgraded from the current content, especially with the Camry.

louiswei

There is a difference between hard plasticly interiors and "cheap" hard plasticly interiors and I believe Toyota is the former. For examples of the later go check out Dodge or maybe some Ford and GM cars. Camry's hard plastic felt much better than Aura, Malibu and Fusions.

when even Honda is putting in nicer-looking and -feeling materials these days....

What? Have you been inside the '08 Accord lately?

louiswei

I have to agree with mackabee here. You'll find hard plastic in all entry level luxury cars now a day. BMW is doing it, Infiniti is the worst offender with its G35 and even Lexus and MB have hard plastic panels on their IS and C-class.

Hard plastic interior panels are here to stay, I don't like them but as long as they don't appear "cheap" I wouldn't [non-permissible content removed] about it (especially for mainstream cars like Toyota, Honda, Nissan and etc.)

mackabee

It's hard to get used to the hard cheap plastic when you've been accustomed to nice plastic I would tell customers "Toyota makes plastic look expensive" when the nice plastic was in their cars. Now I try to avoid the issue and just nod my head when customers complain about the hard plastic.
Mack

louiswei

Mackabee, I don't sell cars like you but if I do and have customers complain about the hard plastic I would nod my head and say I agree with them (customers are always right...) then tell them to compare Toyota hard plastics to GM/Ford/Chrysler hard plastics.

Like I said, I don't like hard plastic but at least I appreciate Toyota don't make them look cheap.

kdhspyder

But some of the Toyota salesmen that frequent the board have stated that Toyota anticipates that Corolla will overtake Camry in the next 5-10 years to become the dominant seller (and they expect compacts in general to do the same), so maybe it's not very important, I dunno.

I believe that once the new Corolla arrives next month ...."

If the price of fuel continues upward there will be an awful lot of demand for the entire segment of 'compact' cars...and there's lots of good choices out there too. The entire midsize segment should be vulnerable.

It is interesting that the customers are taking more 4c models in this new Malibu model. It's one of the launch faults I had with the Fusion initially. For the first year they essentially said...'Go see Toyondassan if you want a 4c.' I see the new 'bu every day about 50 ft outside our front door ( on our Chevy lot ). It is a solid competitor and it costs less than aimilarly equipped Camry.

Our first 4 new Corolla's arrived today.. going to test drive one now.

kdhspyder

Mackabee, I don't sell cars like you but if I do and have customers complain about the hard plastic I would nod my head and say I agree with them (customers are always right...) then tell them to compare Toyota hard plastics to GM/Ford/Chrysler hard plastics.

Like I said, I don't like hard plastic but at least I appreciate Toyota don't make them look cheap.

To add a comment..

You know this is an interesting point. In seeing maybe 1000+ people a year looking at different vehicles not one single person has mentioned any comment about hard plastic or cheapened interiors.

I'm sure that 90% of the buying public are not enthusiasts like on these boards so they may not know specifically what to look for or at. They feel and smell and ogle at the new toys. The seating is obviously important because that's the interface. Other than a feeling of 'Wow' or 'Ewww' there's never been a comment or discussion about a specific plastic content here or there.

mackabee

Well, maybe it's just me but some of my other sales folks mentioned the same thing and it's not only on the Corolla but other Toyota products. I guess I got used to expecting more from Toyota. I remember in the late 90's we wouldn't even compare Toyotas to Ford or Chevy's. It was always Honda vs Toyota and sometimes Nissan would get in the fight too. I guess since the foreign makes became domestic quality became a secondary thought.

nippononly

I am curious to hear your initial impressions of the new Corolla.

I did my first walkaround and sit-in of it last night, and my initial impression is that it is hardly any different from the old Corolla. The wheel has the integrated audio controls (optional, included in the car I sat in), that is an improvement, but then why are they still using the little stalk that sticks out from the back of the wheel for the cruise? Put the cruise controls on the wheel with the audio controls! The fender skirts and whatnot on the new 'S' (which this one was) look a little more ludicrous than they even did before. It looks a little more like the Camry. I kept thinking, "THIS is what Toyota expects to dominate compact sales after compacts begin to dominate midsizers in the U.S.??".

I like the IP a little more, and I'm glad Toyota is still putting in a coolant temp gauge when so many other automakers are abandoning them. The interior materials seem about as bad as those of the '08, on a footnote from the little discussion of late in this thread...the stupid plastichrome is in even more profusion than before, but maybe I should be grateful that the terrible plastiwood seems to have disappeared. Almost everything your hands and elbows touch is hard, and the cupholders still won't hold a Super Big Gulp.

How does it drive?

mackabee

They have turned it into a true Econobox.
:mad:

nippononly

That's what it seems like yes, but then some of your Toyota-sellng brethren seemed to be actually celebrating that Toyota makes the perfect Econobox earlier...

...I wonder how long it will be before people finally forgive Hyundai for the Excel, because when/if that ever happens, Hyundai sells a more compelling Econobox for less money in the form of the Elantra, and Toyota will truly be in trouble....ditto the Sonata and Camry face-off....

And who knows where the next-gen Cobalt will go, or how the Focus will be in 2010. The new Malibu is a good sign for the former, and early info on the latter LOOKS promising (we all know how Ford can mess up a good thing between early teaser info and the real deal at the Ford dealer)...this new Corolla will presumably be Toyota's compact offering into the year 2012...

Did I mention that the rather underwhelming Corolla I sat in had a sticker of over $20 grand? That, and it had the smaller engine, and was only an S (automatic). Seems like a stretch...apparently at that car's base price of about $17,5, cruise, keyless entry, and other goodies are still optional. Wow...

gagrice

Isn't that what the elitist in our government want all US peons to drive. Cut down on fossil fuel usage and CO2.

Or is this a case of Toyota thinking they can cheapen their product and still outsell GM and Honda? Now all we have to do is wait for the market to respond.

210delray

Having had at least one Camry in my "fleet" for 10 years, I really have taken a liking to the stalk for the cruise control. It's really quite simple to operate and quickly becomes intuitive, plus it turns with the steering wheel.

I had a '90 Mercury Sable with the old Ford-type large buttons on the steering wheel for the cruise. These were quite easy to operate too, but today such large buttons aren't used because they take up too much real estate. Instead, you may end up with tiny buttons on the left side of the wheel (as was the case for my rental Pontiac G6 last spring) which were ridiculously hard to operate without looking at them.

I agree with you and Mack on plastichrome, plastic "wood," and the disappearance of nice soft dash padding. As for losing the temp gauge, who are the prime offenders?

giantkiller

Look who's talking. Yup, I almost believe you if not for the vast real state you've claimed in the Toyota Camry transmission Problem board.

nippononly

"As for losing the temp gauge, who are the prime offenders?"

Well, Fit and Yaris don't have one. I don't think xB and xD have one. Most new Volvos don't have one, they seem to be disappearing fast from Chevys including the Cobalt I drove. The VW Beetle way back in 2000 and on didn't/doesn't have one. The new Impreza doesn't have one, unless you buy the $25K-and-up WRX models. Those are just a few examples off the top of my head, I have seen more that just aren't at the tip of my tongue right now.

As for cruise on the steering wheel, I was thinking of the very nice way Honda has it arranged on the wheel of all the Honda cars - the buttons are not too large or too tiny, they are lit (unlike Toyota's stalk cruise), and they are symmetrically arranged with audio controls on models that have audio on the wheel as well.

And here's a point of comparison: the Civic LX has soft, padded places to put both elbows, and at $18,5ish (automatic) it is without the ridiculous body cladding of the Corolla S but does have the full power package, cruise, and keyless entry the Corolla lacks at the same price...not to mention it has 8 more horses and 5 forward speeds instead of four in the automatic.

colloquor

I second that opinion on the cruise control located on a stalk on the right-side of the steering wheel. Excellent ergonomically, it's intuitive and very easy to use in that location. It's such an excellent design that Hyundai used it in their previous gen Elantra, and also in the current Tucson I believe. I for one would hope Toyota keeps it in this location for both Toyota and Scion.

And, at the risk of being flamed (I am a Toyota supporter, and have owned many since 1968, including two Coronas and numerous Corollas), my wife's 2006 Elantra has soft-touch and padded areas throughout the cabin, including the armrests, and upper area of the door trim near the side windows. Total delivered price of the Elantra was $13,500, including TTL. The Elantra GLS automatic has all the typical bells and whistles (power windows, mirrors, keyless entry, alarm, etc.) as standard equipment. After two years of ownership (December 2005 purchase), not one glitch. Unfortunately, I can't make the same statement on my 2007 Camry, but it's getter better thanks to TSBs. I think that some potential buyer's have already overcome the stigma of the old Hyundai Excel - at least my wife has!

nippononly

and in case anyone thinks that Toyota is somehow going to out-discount Honda with Corolla sales, bear in mind that the market overall is down: it's real easy now to buy a Civic at invoice, just like a Corolla, so the real-world prices between the two should be roughly the same. Makes one wonder why anyone would choose the Corolla over the Civic, unless for aesthetic reasons.

kdhspyder

I am curious to hear your initial impressions of the new Corolla.

Over in the 2009 Corolla Forum I posted my first drive impression. I like the styling because I really like the current Camry styling and the two are similar. Camry and mini-Camry. The additional size is a big plus for me, it's just right. The engine is much nicer than the outgoing one.

The interiors are so-so, but frankly I don't care. My Prius is nothing but plastic on the inside and it doesn't bother me in the least.

Safety features, fuel economy and additional useful features like XM and the AUX input are the key reasons why I'd buy it or not. I bought 2 Gen4 Camrys and this new Corolla has it over both of them all day long in nearly every respect... and it's 8-10 years later.

From a different perspective... I can sell the hell out of this vehicle from $16000 ( we have three of those ) all the way up to $22000-ish.

nippononly

I wonder very much how many you can possibly sell at $22K with this interior and performance, even if it does have the Camry engine at that price.

I think the vast majority of sales will run in the $15-17K range, selling at invoice in the summer and lower in the off-season. And it won't take longer than spring for those transaction prices to be happening. Can Toyota do that with the Corolla for the next five years? As minor as this update seems to have been, I see shades of Focus here.

Saw your review over in the '09 Corolla thread - sounds like the new engine does make the car more liveable on the highway and under heavy acceleration - that's an important plus. And all trims now have the telescoping steering wheel plus the 6 airbags and the ABS, correcting a few glaring deficiencies of the '08.

lemko

Lose the temp gauge?!?!? Shoot, I'd rather do without a tach which is frivolous in an automatic-equipped car than the temp gauge.

One thing I LOVE about my 1988 Buick Park Avenue is that it has full instrumentation in addition to a plethora of idiot lights.

carguy58

"It was always Honda vs Toyota and sometimes Nissan would get in the fight too. I guess since the foreign makes became domestic quality became a secondary thought."

I think the price for high quality goes up every year from suppliers thats why the Japanese makes are using less high quality than they used too. But at the same time...I don;t think Nissan interiors are that bad anymore as they were in the 02-04 Altima. The 03 Honda Accord had nice interior plastics too but the new one(08 Accord) has harder interior plastics. As for Toyota they still use good interior plastics but when you feel the plastics the grain of the plastics feels hard if you know what I mean like in the 07 Camry and 08 Highlander.

I have an 07 Mazda 6 and the interior plastics don't feel that hard. The interior plastics in my 1998 Mazda 626 was better than in the 07 6 that I own now though.

carguy58

"You'll find hard plastic in all entry level luxury cars now a day. BMW is doing it, Infiniti is the worst offender with its G35 and even Lexus and MB have hard plastic panels on their IS and C-class."

Infinti-The 08 Infinti G35 has good plastics I think but I just don;t like how the buttons/controls are so small in that car and laid so awkwardly.

BMW-The 3 Series has a good interior. I think the interior in the curent 3 Series is better than the last gen of 3 Series(99-05.)

Lexus-Even the LS460 has hard plastics.

On a side note I really liked the Hyundai Azera's plastics its looks like Hyundai tried to avoid using hard plastic in that car as much as possible.

carguy58

"The interior may appear more stylish to some, but the new Corolla continues a now-15-year tradition at Toyota: cheap hard interiors."

The 1992-1996 Camry had hard plastics? I think the first 2 generations of Avalon had pretty nice interiors(95-99 amd 00-04.)

kdhspyder

Agreed that by far the vast majority of the sales will be in the $15-$18000 range after the initial excitement wears off. IMO these will be the traditional Corolla buyers looking for '4 wheels and 4 doors' and rock-solid reliability. However for the specific buyer looking to stay in the $20000 range for a vehicle not as big as a Camry or Accord or Malibu but with nicer features than a traditional 'econobox' this has an awful lot of opportunities.

carguy58

"Seriously though, given the historically low take rate on 4-cylinder Malibus (except for rental cars), I have to believe that the new higher numbers represent some conquest sales from Camry and Accord, maybe Altima too as it is also sold in large proportion in 4-cylinder trim. That's bad news for Toyota."

Yeah but the 98-03 Malibu didn't even offer a 4 cyl I believe the 98-03 came standard with just a 6 cyl engine. The 04-07 Malibu did come with a 4cyl engine but that generation of Malibu didn;t sell anything.

As far as the Malibu getting conquest from the Accord, Camry, and Altima I have seen a couple of Accords listed in my local Chevy Dealer ads of late in the newspaper: one was a 2007 Accord with only 3,095 miles on it and a 2005 Accord.

"I believe that once the new Corolla arrives next month the Cobalt will be the oldest compact model out there now, unless you consider the "new" Focus to be nothing more than a slight warming over of the 2000 Focus, in which case that model takes the age prize easily."

Yeah but isn;t the 09 Corolla just a warm-over of the current Corolla?