Toyota on the mend?

mackabee

So what is EFI? electronic fuel injection, which is the same as direct fuel injection. You'll never see cylinder deactivation on any Toyota. That's going backwards instead of moving forward.
A Sienna with a 3.5l and the HSD system would get better than 30mpg. It just may be a reality in the next year or so. Stay tuned.
Mack

louiswei

What's the point of this picture?

Give me the right equipments I can make a Hummer H1 looks like this too...

:confuse:

louiswei

Toyota is the first manufacture to market gasoline direct injection on its cars in the US (under the Lexus brand). Last I checked, so far there is not a single car under the mainstream brands (Toyota, Chevy, Ford, ...) that has DI engine. So based on that Toyota is definitely not behind if not ahead.

louiswei

So what is EFI? electronic fuel injection, which is the same as direct fuel injection

Mack, EFI is not the same as direct injection.

EFI

Direct Injection

fintail

Just an aside...I think the MB 300SL (W198 "gullwing") might win that title...it was sold in the US. Not mainstream, of course.

xhe518

You'll never see cylinder deactivation on any Toyota. That's going backwards instead of moving forward.

Why not? Seems like a good idea to me - why use all 6 cylinders when you only need 3 or 4 to cruise on the highway?

louiswei

Fintail, you are right, MB 300SL certainly did win that title.

Okay, so Toyota is the first manufacture to market DI for a sedan. :P

scwmcan

Sorry, check the pontiac solstice GTP and saturn sky redline, direct injection 2.0 turbo four that gets better milage than the base engine, not mainstream sedans mind you but still mainstream brands.
Scott

louiswei

Sure those cars are under a mainstream brand but probably the BMW 5-series is more "mainstream" than those...

scwmcan

well you did say mainstream brand, not product (and I admitted the product wasn't mainstream in my post). Isn't the cobalt supposed to get this engine (I seem to recall that) for it's new SS model?, and of course the Chevy Lamda is supposed to get a version of the DI 3.6, still not a mainstream sedan though (I wouldn't call an ss version of the cobalt mainstream really) I guess unitl chevy or pontiac puts the di 3.6 into a sedan GM wouldn't have a DI engine mainstream sedan(and no I don't know why they haven't done this yet, it would make more sense to me than the Impla v8 for instance). I would think Toyota might put their DI v6 into the next Avalon, in any case we will hopefully benifit from thic technology's improvent in power and/or milage soon.
Scott

nippononly

2.0t a direct injection? I think most if not all diesels currently offered, except the CRuD in the Grand Cherokee, are direct injection. Same with many turbos currently offered.

Most luxury brand normally aspirated gasoline engines are DI too, I think. Someone a lot more committed than me can produce the list of ones that aren't yet. But I know a few Lexi are on that list too. It's not very expensive, the R&D is well behind us on this technology, so come on Toyota! Put your money where your "green" is!

As for cylinder deactivation, it continues to evolve and get better each time it does. Is it Honda that is now going to have a system that instead of going from 6 cylinders to 3 (as many current models do, often allowing little opportunity for it to ever deactivate) goes from 6 to 4 so that it can deactivate a lot more often and save more gas?

louiswei

You are right that most diesels are DI but I was referring to only gasoline engines.

Actually, most luxury brand NA gasoline engines are still NOT DI, the only ones that I recall are: Lexus IS, GS, LS, Caddy CTS 3.6 DI and STS. By the way, you are right that VW 2.0T is a DI.

However, right now Toyota is the only manufacture who offers a combination of direct and indirect injection. The 2GR-FSE uses two injectors per cylinder, a traditional port injector and a new direct injector

mackabee

"Toyota introduced direct injection engine D4 (Toyota AZ engine) in 2000 Toyota Avensis. Toyota's 2GR-FSE V6 uses a combination of direct and indirect injection. It uses two injectors per cylinder, a traditional port injector and a new direct injector."

The Avensis is sold in Europe and South America. The Scion tC is based on this car.

mackabee

Thanks. I stand corrected.

Mack

mackabee

Why not? Because that's why we have Dual VVT-i. Better fuel economy, less emissions, more power. You may not remember when Cadillac had the 6-4-2 cylinder deactivation. It bombed. I think Honda is now in bed with GM and adopting some of their technologies and styling cues. Just look at the Honda Sat.. I mean Accord. Plus I believe Honda is proving GM with engines for the Saturn VUE.
mACK+

scwmcan

Mack,
Just to Clarify, honda did provide engines for the previous saturn VUe, but the current one is powered by GM 's 3.6 v6 (only the previous V6model had Honda engines)
Scott

nippononly

I have never heard of Honda being "in bed" with GM for anything else. Indeed the V-6 thing was a trade agreement for diesels IIRC. It has been over for a while now. Some pretty wild stuff on the forum today.

mackabee

Thank you, I stand corrected.
Mack

gagrice

Didn't Honda buy GM/Izusu diesel engines for the EU market?

nippononly

in sales, not just since they were without two models last winter, but "year-on-year, have dropped for 16 straight months". That goes all the way back, NOT coincidentally, to the last time they were still building the old funky-and-cool xA and xB, as opposed to the boring Americanized appliances they sell now in their places.

http://www.autoweek.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080303/FREE/122766980/1528/- - newsletter01

It was so obvious to ANYONE under 50 that the allure of the Scion brand when it was new was the customer's ability to buy funky, weird, Japanese-market models that were completely unlike anything else available in the States.

How they could think that they would increase sales by cancelling the two JDM models and replacing them with blend-into-the-woodwork America-only models that were carbon copies of 10 other boring models in the market here is quite beyond me.

It's no wonder xD isn't selling better - it's not weird or interesting, it's just a rather dull little appliance no different from other econobox commuter models like the Versa and Caliber. There's certainly a place for a really good commute car in many garages (not that any of the models mentioned really are that great), but it's not the type of car that young people lust after, now is it?

Ditto the xB - the bread box look was IT! Now they have blunted all the corners to mainstream it and have killed the look, not to mention turning it into a porkmobile and reducing it to fairly lousy fuel economy without making it very fast in the process.

In the words of one dealer, "But with every product cycle, it needs to be as though we were starting over."

The xD and xB failed in that mission, instead being warmed-over Americanized versions of the last model. Indeed, Scion seems to me to be on the cusp of breaking its initial promise, which was to sell fresh models totally different from anything available in the Toyota line-up, and refresh each model quickly with new ones, maybe cancelling and not renewing the old in the process. We still have three models occupying essentially the same spots in the market as they did three or four years ago.

I don't know why they don't quit the silly xD - the Matrix has almost identical specs and price in base form and looks better - and bring over something new and totally unique from the JDM. I like the Aygo, or maybe they could sell that iQ as a Scion. Who knows - the Japan market is replete with weird little Toyotas we don't get here.

And if xB doesn't rocket up in sales by late in the year, they should yank that one too and find another global model to slot in there, or maybe bring out something completely new. But the point is, NOT AMERICANIZED. All the Japanese brands sold here today are totally Americanized: designed for and catering to supposed American tastes. Scion needs to be DIFFERENT.

mackabee

Boy you sure lose a lot of breath to say nothing. The xD and xB ARE JDM cars. The xB is sold in Japan as the Corolla Rumion or Rumnion and the xD is the evolution of the iST which we got as the xA. The original toaster Bb IS still made by Daihatsu and it's sold in several markets as the Materia. See the pics below, there's minor modifications to the bumpers on the versions we get. Interiors are the same but with the right hand drive steering wheel.







iST






Materia



:shades:

nippononly

"Boy you sure lose a lot of breath to say nothing."

Boy mack, you may not know it but remarks like this come off kinda hostile.

So then, what's your take on the Scion predicament? I know full well that the new Scions are also JDM models, but they are 2nd-gen BORING JDM models. Not to mention, the new ist is a much nicer car in Japan than it is here - better features, nicer interior materials, etc. As for the xB, I bet if Scion dealers sold the old and new models side by side, the old one would sell better. That certainly is what the sales stats strongly suggest.

Toyota doesn't need to offer the JDM models that most closely mimic their North American counterparts, they need to offer different stuff under the Scion label. There's little point in having the Scion brand otherwise.

One thing they could also stand to do is DIVERSIFY a bit. Are the 3 current models going to be all Scion has to offer? I hear the A-BAT may be sold as a Scion, but I imagine that the timeframe of that is still a ways out.

mackabee

They may come across kind of hostile because all you do is put Toyota down. For someone with the user name of nippononly you are sure a contradiction. The iST and xD are identical inside. The only difference between them is the front bumpers and different front emblem on the iST. As far as the xB goes, I like it but I agree with you that they should have kept the original concept and followed it with the Materia.
Scion might have said that the American consumer wanted more power and a bigger xB but the reality is that the customers buying the new xB are older, usually retired, and on a tight budget. Not to mention that with the Scion line and the price increase on the xD and xB we are now starting to overlap with the Yaris and Corolla.
Mack

gagrice

Didn't the original xB sell pretty well. It had a certain appeal that the new one totally misses. I went and sat in the first one. If the dealer was not so far out in left field I would have bought it for a runabout. They were asking like $20+ which was totally ridiculous for that vehicle. I would have given him $15k cash. Not a penny more.

This is an understatement:

But Jim Lentz, president of Toyota Motor Sales U.S.A., concedes that Scion mishandled last year's model changeover.

colloquor

My son is in the market for a small hatchback, and he dislikes the xD. He liked the xA, and likes the new Yaris hatch as well. One thing he dislikes about the xD is the instrument cluster design, and the overall clunky look.

Re. the xB . . . I think some of the aspects of the design of the new xB were driven by side-intrusion and overall crash safety. I would really hate to be hit in the side in the old xB - actually either, but the new one is quite a bit better in this respect.

nippononly

Yeah, they never should have been without new models for so long last year.

I think all the turnover among the top execs in the U.S. has impacted Scion too. The folks who guided the pilot program for Scion are either gone or moved on to bigger and better jobs. No-one was minding the store for the Scion brand.

The original xB sold very well, yes. Far better than Toyota ever expected. The new one has yet to achieve the sales highs of the old one according to that article.

Mack: I get the same response from folks in the Subaru, Honda, and GM threads. I guess I oughtta' be more positive, eh?! ;-)

I tend to view automakers with a very critical eye. I am looking for them to constantly improve, and I feel like there has been a big stagnation in that respect among all of them (except GM, and GM is still behind the curve ) since 2000.

Having said that, both my current cars are Toyotas, as the majority have been over the years. Anyone who has had Toyotas since the 70s will tell you that cost-cutting has been painfully evident in Toyotas since the 90s. And of course it has been throughout the industry. But with other car companies closing the reliability gap and continuing to undercut Toyota on price, it is hard to see how Toyota will hold onto its market share in the years to come.

The only positive note in all of that is that the domestics are in big trouble for the same reasons and more (at least Toyota offers multiple models with high fuel economy at this time of rapidly increasing gas prices; the domestics cannot say the same). Before Toyota would begin to lose market share, I think we would see one of the Detroit companies break up or enter bankruptcy, which would be like a relief valve for the remainder of the Big 6.

louiswei

In what was arguably the largest press conference here in Geneva, Toyota unveiled the production version of its ultra-compact city car, the iQ. Originally shown in concept form during last year's Frankfurt Motor Show, the production iQ remains true to its conceptual forbearer, combining short overhangs with smoothed, angular accents.

The iQ measures 2,985mm in length with a 2,000mm wheelbase, which aids in both drivability and interior volume. The inside benefits from many of the angles and curves that adorn the exterior sheetmetal, including a triangular center console fitted with a 5.8-inch display. Additional storage comes courtesy of 50/50 split folding rear seats and an under-floor fuel tank that maximizes interior space.

Toyota didn't divulge what kind of powertrains the iQ would come equipped with, but sales are slated to begin in late 2008, with production expected to crest the 100,000 mark during its first year.

Picures here

I can see this car ends up in the Scion show room.

mackabee

You think this was designed to compete with the Smart car for two? Me thinks it was.
Mack

louiswei

Why do you think Toyota named it iQ?

mackabee

You got it!

nippononly

Toyota is bowing to inevitability, I see. It has announced it will be scaling back production of the Tundra and brand new Sequoia this spring due to lack of demand. The Toyota officials who wondered publicly 2 years ago whether it was a good idea to spend money developing a new, bigger Sequoia appear to have been proven right.

This scaling back will occur mostly at the San Antonio plant, only recently built. This has to be a blow to Toyota's plans, although in the long run it may work out OK as Toyota needs to increase its production in North America anyway.

Interestingly, production will be much less impacted at the other plant that builds Tundras (is it in Kentucky? I think so) because Sienna demand is unaffected and in fact they can afford to build MORE Siennas than they have been. Sienna production shares that plant with the Tundra.

I know that it is in their long-range plans to begin building RAV4s in the States. I wonder if they could convert part of the San Antonio plant to build RAVs, rather than going ahead with building the costly new plant that is just now on the drawing boards for this purpose.

mackabee

They are cutting production at one of the plants. I don't recall which one, either the San Antone or Princeton plant. It's probably the Princeton plant since that's where the Sienna is built. As far as building RAV4's here who knows. I think they should focus more on getting quality under control. It's obvious to the trained eye that they are cutting corners. Why ? I don't know. But I do know this; customers will pay for quality and brand equity. Toyota is riding on brand equity right now as the quality of materials and fit and finish on the interiors is sub par IMHO.
mACK

:shades:

gagrice

I think the designers are coming up short as well. The new Sequoia, Land Cruiser and xB are all a step backward from the last model. Just wandered through the dealership while my Sequoia was serviced. I did not see a model that made me say that looks great. The Scion tC is not bad looking.

nippononly

Of course, styling has never been their forte....what stands out to me is that prices on LCs and Sequoias seems to have gone way up on the back of what appears to be a relatively minor update to these models.

In the case of the xB, price jumped a lot but so did size, power, just about everything, so at least maybe there it was justified.

I sometimes wonder where this industrywide "rush to the bottom" will ever end, in terms of quality of materials. Toyotas are pretty shocking today for anybody trading in a Toyota older than about 12 years. 12 years is a pretty short time for Toyota interiors to have become so subpar. The same problem exists in all makes and model under about $30K, it seems to me, although Toyota is beginning to stand out as below average even in that context. It is fairly common now to read a review where the writer, expressing mild shock, refers to multiple fit and finish problems in the Toyota he/she is driving.

mackabee

The Sequoia is way ahead of the last generation. The US market xB in reality is not an evolution of the original xB, bB in Japan. Our current xB is known in Japan as the Corolla Rumnion. Seems Toyota wants to label any small car they sell in Japan or overseas Corolla-something or other.
Getting back to the xB, the Daihatsu Materia is actually the Japanese bB and you can see the evolution of the original xB in it.
Toyota brought the Corolla Rumnion to our market due to alleged low horspower and small size of the original xB, which I think is baloney since most everyone I sold an original xB to love their cars and they don't really like the "new" xB.
The tC is the best bang for the buck but as they always do, the price is getting higher and higher every year which puts it in another category and the market it was intended for can't afford them,

Mac k

gagrice

The Sequoia is way ahead of the last generation.

The running gear may be better. The looks is a different story. My wife also says it looks to big, even though it is only 5 inches longer. The fold down rear seats are nice. The console does not seem to remove on the 08 Platinum. I will keep the 07 till someone builds a diesel SUV I like. I do miss my XM that the dealer swore could be integrated when I bought the vehicle. I can add some kluged up aftermarket unit. Maybe they got the NAV/XM/CD changer right in 08.

mackabee

The JBL has the satellite capability. You still have to buy the receiver and antenna.
Mack

lemko

...and there was PLOOD on the inside of a $70K Land Cruiser! At $70K I expect the real thing. It wasn't even good plood - more like the kind you'd have seen in a 1970s RV! Might as well get the Lexus LX470.

gagrice

Are referring to the 2008 or the previous model. My 2007 Sequoia Limited has no satellite option. The sales person was as surprised as I was to find that out. All the aftermarket units are either FM modulators or kluged into the JBL system. There is no CD changer for the Limited either. And the single CD player skips on some CDs. Toyota uses inferior electronics compared to my most recent GMC PU truck.

louiswei

That's weird because the JBL sound system on my father's 2005 4Runner Limited has the 6-CD changer.

According to MSN Autos The CD changer is an option on all 2007 Toyota Sequoias.

Mack, can you confirm this?

gagrice

You are right and you are wrong. IF you have the NAV and DVD rear entertainment system that comes on most of the Limited Sequoia models. You cannot get any other options such as the 6 CD changer or XM receiver.Toyota uses the Aux input for the DVD player in back. Which I have no need of. It just happens to be part of the vehicle they had in stock. They do not have an XM even listed for the Sequoia according to Poway Toyota. Nice vehicle too bad I am limited to listening to AM or FM which is not as good as the standard FM in my old 99 Ford Ranger.

louiswei

Ah okay, so you have a single DVD slot, not a single "CD" slot. That's a big difference.

gagrice

No I have a single CD player, a DVD slot for the NAV map & a DVD rear entertainment player that is separate though integrated with the NAV JBL sound system. Nothing else can be added because they used the only AUX input for the DVD player. I have gone to Ed & Al's, Best Buy and Circuit City. They all tell me I am stuck with what I got. My only option is to rip out the NAV and put a good after market NAV that has what I want, like the newer Pioneer units.

See this never occurred to me as my 2005 GMC PU truck had all this good stuff integrated. I had no idea that Toyota was so far behind in electronics.

mackabee

You're right about the SAT radio. I was in a Limited 07 today like the one you describe. It has the nav and entertainment system. Usually the nav units have a cd changer built in but instead of 6 cds in only takes 4 cds. I'll check it out tomorrow and verify.
Mack

mackabee

Did you ever change the oil? I own three Camrys right now and the first was totalled after an accident or we would still have it. The 92 went 127k+ miles before the accident. My wife's 97 has over 112k, my son's 93 has 138k+, and my 95 has 168k miles and still going strong, just replaced the oem struts a week ago.

The camshaft problem on the Tundra was fixed long ago, it was an outside supplier which shall remain nameless so that I don't offend anyone. And it was a very small number of trucks that were affected. The ones that had the problem were fixed or the engine replaced under warranty.

No car foreign or domestic is perfect.
Mack

nippononly

Ol' dv there is just jumping all over the boards, into many threads whose topic bears no relation to his rants, to pan Toyota. Best to ignore, I think.

My 5-1/2 year old Echo has reached 100K miles without ever needing a repair thus far, and without even needing much in the way of maintenance. Still goes 5K between oil changes without ever needing any oil too. This is the kind of trouble-free operation Toyota needs to continue to provide, I think, in order to maintain its edge. And it is exactly the thing most in peril from all this cost-cutting and rapid expansion.

And I know they are in a period of retrenchment right now after the widely reported issues of the early 00s, but once that is over they really ought to get a FEW models out there with some pizzazz, for goodness' sake! Even Scion lacks the pizzazz it had in '04-05.

priggly

The Tundra is simply not competitive with the domestic pick-up offerings. I don't know what Toyota was thinking when they built that SA plant. Bad move.

louiswei

The Tundra is simply not competitive with the domestic pick-up offerings.

Do you have facts to back up that claim or you were just pulling things out of your you-know-what?

kdhspyder

Nice troll post..

Back to the GM boards...

Long discussion on Dex Cool. GM settled the class action suit without admittting any problem. Actually the spokesman said it was the customers' fault. I kid you not.

kdhspyder

Have you been asleep for a year?

No matter what your opinion is the facts are that the Tundra is wiping the floor with the others. Sales are WAY up primarily at the expense of Ford but there is this hidden nugget in the annual stats.

The new Tundra killed the GMT900 Sierra last year in sales. ( As priggly searches for the stats and say's 'How can that be since the Sierra sold more than the Tundra in 2007? ). That's your homework for the weekend. Answer on Monday.

Realistically every truck maker is going to get killed this year. Lots of blood in the streets so to speak.