Toyota on the mend?

kdhspyder

Corolla...

Not really. It doesn't look a whole lot different but it is far more vehicle than the outgoing model. There's really no comparison content-wise or value-wise. It has standard options that you could rarely get on any Corolla and it has options never before available. In addition it's bigger, more powerful with better fuel economy.

It's a 1998 Camry with more power, better fuel economy and more features but at a lower price than that Camry even after 10 yrs of inflation. That's a slick accomplishment.

nippononly

Yes, the '09 Corolla is mostly just a warm-over of the '08 Corolla, except that unlike Focus, it has a new engine (dual VVTi has been introduced; not sure if the block itself is new or the same as before) with a bit more power, a sidestep in fuel economy, and more useable torque and lower smog emissions.

And of course, the most expensive model now has the Camry engine, and yes, you can now get NAV and BlueTooth, and the 6 airbags and ABS that were options on the '08 are now standard.

On the unchanged side, the platform is basically the same so handling won't improve, the interior is almost unchanged except that the wheel telescopes now, and standard equipment except for the 6 bags and ABS has barely moved an inch. There are still several trims of Corolla without standard power locks and windows, for instance.

Makes you wonder why they bother having a Yaris. These two will now continue to clash for buyers, rather than the '09 Corolla moving upscale a bit as most thought it would. There is a lot less negotiation space between invoice and sticker on the Yaris than there is on the Corolla, so they will step all over each other. I know I would take the Yaris over the Corolla at similar prices - it has the better handling of the two. Perhaps the giganto-rims on the XRS will improve handling, but then that model is WAY more expensive than a fully loaded Yaris.

carguy: "The 1992-1996 Camry had hard plastics? I think the first 2 generations of Avalon had pretty nice interiors(95-99 amd 00-04.) "
No, '92 is when they began the push to cut costs, and their first approach was to decontent while maintaining pricing. The move to cheaper interior materials didn't begin in earnest until Corolla and Camry turned over in '98 and '97 respectively.

kdh: the new Corolla is the reinvention of the '98 Camry - no, I am not buying that, I have spent WAY too much time riding in and driving my friends' '97 and '99 to believe that the new Corolla has as much interior space or as smooth as a ride. The back seat of the Camry was bigger, more leg and shoulder space, as was the driver's seat. I will suspend judgment of the ride comparison until I get a chance to drive the '09 Corolla, but I will bet it is a lot like the '08 was, which is to say jittery by comparison with any of the Camrys of the last decade.

lemko

...mainly because it was so closely priced to a Corolla?

nippononly

The Echo failed partly because the styling was judged to be weird, and partly because it was TOO stripped for the American market at base price. If you wanted a no-frills car, it was actually a heck of a bargain. But if you wanted A/C, CD, and the power package, THEN it was priced right on top of the Corolla, not to mention power mirrors were never available, and nor were any MORE factory options if you wanted them (like cruise, etc).

Now the Yaris has standard A/C at base price, the fully loaded model offers a lot more equipment from the factory than the Echo did, and the model with common options like power package and CD stereo is about $2000 less at sticker than a comparable Corolla. Problem is, Corolla gives dealers $1000 more in wiggle room for the actual transaction price, and with real-world prices only $1000 apart or less depending on configuration, Yaris and Corolla truly will be stepping on each others' toes.

kdhspyder

Those prior Gen4 Camry's did ride very nicely. They were smooth and quiet over the 200,000+ miles I put on two of them. But they did sit low to the ground with soft and cushy seats. This will be different in sitting higher and a little more upright.

The big difference between the two IMO is that Camry has always had that isolation factor about it. Road noise was/is often non-existent. This new Gen10 Corolla is a lot quieter than the preceeding versions but it's still not a Camry...for better or worse.

kdhspyder

Your last paragraph is very important. The Yaris supports the pricing of the Corolla so that it doesn't have to be discounted heavily in order to find the right vehicle for a frugal shopper. The Yaris is right there to fill that slot. The Corolla does the same for the Camry. It's been covering the Camry's back for 20 years now.

This new pricing stucture with a loaded Corolla overlapping a base model Camry allows the Camry to hold it's rather lofty pricing ( profitability ) in comparison to the other midsizers. If a Toyota buyer wants more features than a standard Camry offers at say $20000-$22000 the new Corolla is there with the XLE or XRS models.

The Yaris offers the Corolla the same protection in the $15000-$17000 level. If a buyer wants a $14000 vehicle it won't be a Corolla in most instances it will be a Yaris or a Scion.

When I first began here there was nothing really below the Corolla. A $12000 buyer could only look at a $14900 base Corolla and try to haggle $3000 off the price. In the 99-2000 period we often had Corolla's advertised at $11990 as strippies just to keep the buyers from going elsewhere. This meant that the Corolla's effective price range was $12000-$16000. That also meant that the Camry's effective range was $17000 - $21000. That never happens anymore.

Well, we'll see what this year brings. It's likely to be a toughie.

kdhspyder

The Temp Gauge isn't lost.. It's just been incorporated into the mini-trip computer. That space on the left dial is a trip computer which the past models didn't have. There's a 2nd stalk coming out of the left hand dial ( tach ). Pressing it scrolls through the normal trip computer data including the Outside Temp.

[Edit] I assumed, probably incorrectly, that the Outside Temp gauge is the that was being discussed. After rereading I see that it was probably the Engine Temp gauge. I'll have to check the manual but the newer small models have a Hot/Cold warning light in place of the Engine Temp gauge. The 2000 Echo was the first one I saw with it.

nippononly

Yup, it's the engine coolant temp gauge we were discussing. Toyota with its small models is FAR from the only offender here. And the problem includes a lot of way more expensive cars.

cruiser69

Thank you! Finally a mention of the Elantra. The 07 Elantra is hands down a great contender in this market and shame on everyone for not giving it a fair shake at the offerings from Toyota and Honda. Its interior materials are very high quality and has the best dash lights out of anyone in the class for night driving. The interior is contoured beautifully and the seats are very comfortable. You can actually fit real, fat butt Americans like us in the backseat with room to spare. The car has the most standard features for the price and rides very well. No, the engine does not have the refinement of the other two at higher rpms but its idle and low speed cruise is nearly identical.

The warranty and standard features should make the others ashamed of themselves. Reliability has been much improved and i think because Hyundai is still trying to achieve a high level of respect for its products, they are trying harder then Honda and Toyota because they are both already so well established they can try to slack off in certain areas like interiors. Once Hyundai is officially recognized by the consumer as a true contender, then i expect it to be included in the direct compairasons to Honda and Toyota. Its intentional omission from the discussions and to put it in the same unmentionable class as the Cobalt is inaccurate and disrespectful to Hyundai. Lets stop the prejudice and include it in the import comparisons. Stigma over, truth forward please. Its no longer just Civic and Corolla. The Elantra holds its own and believe it or not, it gets more looks driving around town in its Redfire Pearl clearcoat than my grandmothers Corolla ever did!

mackabee

The 92-96 gen Camry was probably the best made Camry as far as quality materials go. The next gen they "decontented" it and you could see the difference in the quality of materials. The 92-96 was actually called a Lexus with a Toyota badge by the automotive press. When they introduced the 92-96 gen there was a full section on how the car was designed and built on USA Today. I wish I would have known I'd be selling them so I would have kept it.
Macxk

priggly

http://www.thecarconnection.com/blog/?p=778&srccd=de20080208

louiswei

Another Toyota doomsday article from Detroit...

So what's new?

nippononly

Imagine if GM does as good a job on the Impala and Cobalt updates as it did with the new Malibu (and does them SOON). Toyota could be in a real competition with Detroit for car sales for the first time in a while - Aveo is already selling roughly as well as Yaris.

Can Camry/Corolla/Avalon handle the Koreans, Honda and Nissan, AND Detroit? I bet Toyota's right on one count at least: I bet Camry sales peak with the current model (475K in 2007).

bikeman3

GM doesn't have the cash to update anything, they're offering buyouts and will remain cash strapped for the next 18-24 months., :shades:

mackabee

Speaking of the Aveo. I saw one on tuesday on my way to work and it was tuned up to the max! At first I thought it was a Honda Fit but as I got closer I saw the Chevy emblem and the Aveo name. This thing was silver with ground effects, fog lights, alloy wheels, spoiler and get this; dual exhaust pipes! Yes, one on the left and one on the right! The driver was a young lady and it looked like either her boyfriend or brother in the passenger seat and mom in the back seat. They looked happy.

nippononly

...and yet they just debuted the updated 3- and 5-door Aveos in Europe, whose updates follow the lead of the sedan, updated last fall. The 5-door goes on sale here in the summer.

Impala got its update only a couple of years ago, but the Cobalt MkII should be coming around the bend any time now...

I see Toyota butting heads directly, model for model, feature for feature, with GM on the one hand and with Honda on the other, for the foreseeable future. Both should prove to be tough competition. I think we can look for Honda to succeed in taking back the "green" mantle from Toyota too, which I would take personally if I ran Toyota! :-P

cooterbfd

Another Toyota doomsday article from Detroit... Huh????

What's it got to be all candy and roses or it's no good??? I think it seemed fairly well balanced. Not only did it talk about their growing pains here, but how well they are doing in other markets around the world. Definitely not all doom and gloom.

cooterbfd

I don't know what you're smoking, but GM has SEVERAL new products out now, and plenty more due in the next several years as those models end their natural cycle.
With all the praise heaped on the new Malibu and Accord, do you honestly think Toyota will waste money to revamp the Camry WELL BEFORE it's 5 year cycle is over (2011, I believe). Not happening. All that will probably happen is a freshening of the current model to keep it (critically) competitive with the competition.

steevo

I think they all have more to worry about from Nissan. The Altima is priced all over the place and has raised the bar on standard features in an entry level vehicle. Even the base model is loaded up with push button start and keyless, is more loaded than a mid-line Camry and is under 20000 street prices. It is way more car for the money than a Corolla or Civic and easily matches up with the Camry and Accord.
I would think Camry buyers looking for something fresh, and Accord buyers looking for something cheaper, are more likely to cross shop Nissan than to go to a "cheap image" brand like Chevy or Hyundai.

mackabee

Elantra, Elantra, Elantra! Good car.
Mack

210delray

But one major gaffe in my view on the Altima is that Nissan does not even offer electronic stability control on any 4-cylinder model. You have to move up to the V6 in order to obtain ESC.

steevo

I agree thats a major gaffe. People see it as a safety issue.
Tho in reality there is not enough torque in a 4 banger to make it that useful. Just a slight decrease on the throttle would snap the car right back in line...I

danny35

I have purchased a XM SKYFI2 radio. This is suppose to have a FM modulator. I know the power source is the cigarette lighter plug and the antnea has it's own plug. Can I use the Aux jack and plug that into the Line out on the cradle? Does this make sense?

maximafan

Danny, are you talking about the XM Direct Connect wire that comes with the kit? I bought an XM RoadyXT for my brother for Christmas and I had to install the Direct Connect to his exterior
antenna( he doesn't have a cassette player). My first XM receiver was a Roady that I got back in 2004. I installed it in a
2002 Nissan Maxima, which had a cassette player. I now have XM integrated in my 2007 Lexus. I still use the old Roady whenever I rent a car to go out of town, but it never had that Direct Connect wire that you had to attach to an exterior antenna.

I don't know. It seems like more work having to install this Direct Connect stuff, especially if you're moving it between different cars. I wonder if it would make that much of a difference in sound quality if it's connected the way the original Roady was set up.

steevo

Yes that will work. You can also line out to a DVD player if your car has one.

beantown

When I first began here there was nothing really below the Corolla. A $12000 buyer could only look at a $14900 base Corolla and try to haggle $3000 off the price. In the 99-2000 period we often had Corolla's advertised at $11990 as strippies just to keep the buyers from going elsewhere. This meant that the Corolla's effective price range was $12000-$16000. That also meant that the Camry's effective range was $17000 - $21000. That never happens anymore.

I disagree with that last sentence. Not a week goes by that multiple dealerships around here don't have plenty of new 2008 Camry CEs going for under $17K. And that is for automatic trans models. Manual CEs can be had for $15K brand new. I have confirmed on more than one occasion that these are actually there on the lot and not just in print (but sold before the ad went public).

Brand new 2008 Corolla CEs can still be had for less than $12K around here as well. I'm guessing it's only a matter of time before you can get the base 2009 Corolla for $12-13K, despite the desires of Toyota to move it up in price. It may take a few years, but I think it really is just a matter of time before the Yaris goes the way of the Echo.....unless gas prices REALLY spike.

kdhspyder

Different markets I guess. It would be interesting to hear from other areas. In the Mid-Atlantic region where Laurel CarMax is the BIG DOG ( #2 in the country ) the remaining 2008 CE is @ $18000 after $1000 rebate. search NEW Toyotas

nippononly

But Yaris sales are way up, and with the uninspiring Corolla update, isn't it likely that they will stay up? Of course, as you say, it is only a matter of weeks before new '09 Corollas will sell for $12K in the real world. But I have read some accounts from Yaris buyers that after driving both models back to back, they PREFERRED the Yaris. It is a lighter, more limber companion to the Corolla. And for those (like me) that WANT a more basic car, it fills a need quite nicely. Corolla fuel economy with the manual has fallen too. Corolla fuel economy in the automatic was never up to Yaris snuff.

mackabee

I've never seen an $18k Ce corolla. Check Fitzmall, they give everything away.
Mack

mackabee

Yeah, the Yaris is selling good....to the dealerships. Look around the lots and you see them stacking up. I agree it won't be around very long.
Mack

kdhspyder

NO, I was unclear.

I was talking about a CE Camry.. my bad. Laurel has one 2008 CE Camry left on it's site.

beantown

But Yaris sales are way up, and with the uninspiring Corolla update, isn't it likely that they will stay up?

It's my opinion that Yaris sales are pretty much only up because of the current climate with regard to gas prices and not because of the merits of the car itself (aside from its potential gas mileage). If gas prices were this bad when the Echo was first released, it would have done better in my opinion, on par with what the Yaris is doing now.

I'd go further to say that if gas prices were to somehow plummet in the near future, Yaris sales numbers would tumble into "Echo territory".

But I have read some accounts from Yaris buyers that after driving both models back to back, they PREFERRED the Yaris.

I would certainly hope so. Why else would they buy it if they didn't prefer it?

And for those (like me) that WANT a more basic car, it fills a need quite nicely.

The Echo in theory should've filled this need as well.

Corolla fuel economy with the manual has fallen too. Corolla fuel economy in the automatic was never up to Yaris snuff.

This is something I took note of the other day when I was wandering around my local dealership. The 09 manual actually gets worse EPA mileage than the automatic (granted it's just by one city mpg, but still). Odd turn of events there.

But if we're comparing 08 to 08 or 07 to 07, I've seen just as many angry reports from folks online describing the poor gas mileage they're getting from their Yaris as good reports. And just as many reports from folks getting great mpgs from their current Corollas. I think the "real world" mpg for them is pretty much a wash, but I have nothing to base this off of other than anecdotal evidence from the Net or from people I know who own Corollas (I don't know anyone who actually owns a yaris).

mackabee

But my question still is; why can't you get bluetooth with the nav system? The "trainers" at the ride and drive didn't have a clue from what I understand.
Mack

nippononly

Yeah, well I was just presenting one side of the coin before. You are correct that the other side is that Yaris and Corolla overlap in price and features WAY too much for two models on the same showroom floor, and now that the Corolla update has failed to really update the Corolla and make it worth more than the old Corolla, Corolla sales will probably kill off the Yaris in the next couple of years.

The reality, of course, will probably fall somewhere in between the two extremes.

I saw that guy Lentz quoted as saying the new 35 mpg CAFE standard for 2020 will cause Toyota a lot of trouble, and I must admit I was a little surprised. I guess they have the same truck problem now that the 3 domestics have. Too many sales of gas-guzzling trucks that are way way below the standard, and not enough Prius sales to compensate.

In other countries Toyota sells all sorts of cool little models with little engines or diesels, but do we get any? No. We get the Japanese ist (Scion xD) with the darn Corolla engine in it. What happened to the 40 mpg 1.5L? It is deemed inadequate for the U.S. market, even as it goes into ists sold in Japan and Europe as one of the LARGER engine options for that model. To me, it seems like Toyota is just not taking fuel economy seriously any more. How come it is taking them so long to bring their hybrid technology to market in more models?

louiswei

What happened to the 40 mpg 1.5L? It is deemed inadequate for the U.S. market

Unless there is a paradigm shift I doubt we'll see that engine anytime soon here in the US. I have to admit that I am one of the horsepower junkies but personally I wouldn't mind driving a fuel-efficient (but sporty) 4-banger if I am not surrounded all the time by big SUVs, CUVs and pickup trucks on the highway. Not to mention those tractor trailers...

Would I be driving a 300hp sports sedan if I live in Europe or Asia? You bet your bacon I wouldn't!

kdhspyder

My feeling is that the lack of high tech is intentional at the moment.. It is annoying that there seems to be a lot of different vehicles and technologies floating all over the world but no one place has them all. The Domestic vehicle fans complain all the time about the Euro-models and Aussie models that never get here.

Heck Canada gets Auto Climate Control and SKS on the new Corolla but the US does not. OTOH they don't get Navi or Bluetooth. This is obviously intentional. They are made on the same line at the same factory. Keep the customers hungry and chomping for improvements.

nippononly

already uses the 3.5 from the Camry. How much work could it be to stick the Camry's hybrid powertrain in there instead? Seems like Toyota ought to have been able to do that by now. The Sienna pulls maybe 20-22 mpg around town, pretty dismal in the face of the gas prices we have now. Imagine if it could pull 30 or so in town with the hybrid! That would be a big selling point for Toyota in a field of virtually identical minivans.

nippononly

and the 3.3L HSD powertrain in the Highlander gets sucko gas mileage. The Sienna would be a little heavier AND have a less aerodynamic profile. I would be hoping for the 2.7L HSD option in the Sienna (incorporating the new 2.7L engine going into the Venza and soon after, one presumes, the Camry). I am well aware that it would be slower than the gas V-6 version, but it would still have over 200 hp (including the electric motor). That's roughly the power-weight ratio of a late 90s, early 00s Explorer with the V-6, which would be fast enough for mom to get the kids to soccer practice, and would save a lot more gas than a V6-based HSD powertrain would.

Mackabee: minivan sales are down overall (mainly due to all the rental fleet sales of the Windstar/GM-whatever-it-was/SWB Caravan going away), but fairly constant for Toyota and Honda. I am betting Toyota stays in the minivan fight for at least one more round with the Sienna, and I applaud them for it.

kdhspyder

Another frustrating characteristic. They do this on all models. When they build something is stays that way for the entire model cycle with only a few changes. Yep the Sienna could have been a hybrid after the Highlander was, they used the same 3.3L at the time. But nooooo...

Now the Sienna is due to be redone in the Fall. As a gasser it uses the 3.5L. It could very easily ( I think it will ) offer a hybrid option using the 3.3L+HSD exactly as the Highlander does.

xhe518

Now the Sienna is due to be redone in the Fall. As a gasser it uses the 3.5L. It could very easily ( I think it will ) offer a hybrid option using the 3.3L+HSD exactly as the Highlander does.

I agree, that would be great.... However, I'm not sure if they could still have the fold-flat "stow-n-go" style seats - they fold into the floor where the battery pack would be in a hybrid...

mackabee

Mini van sales are dismal. Look at GM and Ford. They got out of the mini van business a while ago.
:shades:

xhe518

I would be hoping for the 2.7L HSD option in the Sienna (incorporating the new 2.7L engine going into the Venza and soon after, one presumes, the Camry). I am well aware that it would be slower than the gas V-6 version, but it would still have over 200 hp (including the electric motor

I agree with that. My 2000 Sienna only makes 192hp and it performs well enough for me....If it got 25mpg in the city instead of 18 that would be even better!

p.s. A minivan does everything you need better than a "crossover" - (other than look cool and let you pretend you're driving a cool SUV) - it has more room inside, more room in the third row, slider doors, etc....

kdhspyder

I too would like to see a smaller hybrid minivan. In its present and likely future form the current Sienna is really too large for a 2.4L+HSD hybrid. With that vehicle and 7 passengers and gear it would be embarrassingly slow.

Now the 2.7L+HSD, which as far as I know has never been done, would would give the Sienna top rated fuel economy and decent acceleration....I'm guessing. But I think the 3.3L+HSD will be the default choice with 270 hp and slightly improved FE.

nippononly

It wouldn't be worth paying extra for the tiny little improvement in fuel economy this powertrain would provide in the Sienna. 2.7L HSD, that's the ticket! :-)

xhe518

It wouldn't be worth paying extra for the tiny little improvement in fuel economy this powertrain would provide in the Sienna. 2.7L HSD, that's the ticket

The Highlander Hybrid is rated at 27city/25 highway, so I guess a hybrid Sienna would be similar - that's better than a "slight" improvement (at least in the city number)

It would be even better with the 2.7L instead of the 3.3L I'd expect....

I'm just a big supporter of minivans. I have one. I'd buy another one...I hope they don't stop making them...No crossover has as much interior space or a "real" 3rd row that adults could actually use. Function over form!

mackabee

Not necessarily. Highlander was tuned for performance and not fuel economy, so is it's corporate twin Lexus RH350. These cars scream off the line, 0-60 in well under 7 seconds. So you can go to the country club and your friends will be amazed that you are concerned with the environment, they don't need to know you are really a kid at heart.

nippononly

Well, that would mean it would have just about the same highway rating, while in town it would do quite a lot better, yes. Me, I'd like to see it do a lot better on the highway and a TON better in town...

And you know, when even CHRYSLER has cylinder deactivation and has had it for years, and certainly Honda has in the Odyssey, it is high time that the newest engines from Toyota have it too (starting with the new 2.7). For the bigger vehicles in steady state highway situations, it can save quite a bit of gas.

Toyota could stand to make direct injection a lot more widespread too - there's another gas saver and emissions reducer. Other carmakers are demonstrating that these technologies are no longer the sole domain of luxury cars. And if Toyota is as committed to the green ethic as it seems to claim, it needs to put its money where its mouth is.

mackabee

Where have you been? Toyota has had direct ignition for years. Cylinder deactivation is a joke. Gm was not successful with it and now Honda is doing it and the gas savings if any at all are minimal and don't justify the cost. Toyota is at the forefront of technology with the hybrids and everyone else is trying to catch up.
Mack aka Mr. Toyota

otto8

nippononly

Where have you been? I said direct injection, not direct ignition.

Cylinder deactivation delivers less than it promises, yes. But on large vehicles with big engines, it can be good for a couple of points or more in highway cruising. A useful increase, IMO.

Put a 2.7L HSD powertrain (or a 3.3L HSD powertrain with cylinder deactivation) in the Sienna, I bet it would rate 30/30 or better. And that's under the NEW rating system. Imagine a minivan that made an honest 30 mpg around town and on the highway!