Toyota on the mend?

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  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I hate the paint job on the Prius C. :P

    If it does not beat the other Prius mileage by a good amount it will fail. Look at the flop the Camry Hybrid is. Barely beats out the 4 banger out on the highway. And costs about $6k more.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I hate the paint job

    I was gonna say...

    They let my kid loose on it and he glued all his graph paper to the exterior, instead of using it to do his homework.

    I agree it should be significantly more fuel efficient. The Prius V loses, what, 20% or so? This needs to gain 20% or so.

    Lemme look...

    51/48 or 50 combined for the Prius.

    44/40 or 42 mpg combined for the Volume edition. So it gives up 8mpg, or 16%.

    I know you get diminishing returns, but they should aim for 58mpg, and if they can get 56mpg or so combined I would say that's a success.

    If it's 52mpg combined, why even bother?
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,938
    Toyota is doing just fine.
    '18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • robr2robr2 Member Posts: 8,805
    Look at the flop the Camry Hybrid is. Barely beats out the 4 banger out on the highway. And costs about $6k more.

    IMHO, it's not the mileage that dooms the Camry Hybrid - it's the styling. People want others to see how green they are. What's the point of smugness if you can't show the world??

    It's the same reason the Accord Hybrid didn't sell.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Regular Camry gets 22/33, 26 combined.

    Hybrid gets 31/35, 33 combined.

    So you're still picking up 2 mpg on the highway. And +7mpg overall.

    However...real world mileage improves a lot, people average 24.3mpg in the regular Camry and 35.9mpg in the hybrid. That's a very meaningful +11.6mpg.

    Also, that $6000 includes some extra equipment. My college roommate's wife bought one and I remember it had nicer seats and a nicely padded dash. It seems well upscale from a generic base model.

    Hybrids are meant to improve city driving, though. If you do mostly highway driving get a diesel.

    Conversely, if you sit in bumper to bumper traffic, diesels lose because you get 0mpg when it's idling (which is 50% of the time here in DC). I'd like to see an auto-stop diesel, that would be sweet...
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I'm skeptical.

    Batteries are heavy.

    Sports coupes should be light.

    At least you can make the center of gravity low, but the CR-Z tried to be both fun and efficient and failed at both.

    Good luck.
  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
    Actually I drove the CR-Z last weekend and I found it to be pretty fun to drive. As far as efficient tho, I never left the Sport mode and didn't put enough miles on it to get real world results.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,038
    If it's 52mpg combined, why even bother?

    Well, if it comes in at a much cheaper price point than the Prius, it could still make sense. For example, a Yaris is rated 29/35, 31 combined with the automatic, and 29/36, 32 combined with the stick.

    I remember the Honda Insight getting some favorable reviews, because even though its fuel economy wasn't so hot compared to the best of the best, it was also a lot cheaper, so it was a good choice for people on more of a budget.

    Still, when you consider how popular the Prius is, compared to the Insight, I guess the market has spoken. I guess most people who want a hybrid want the most economical car they can get, and are willing to pay for it.

    About this time last year, I found a used '09 Altima at the Nissan dealer's used car lot when we took my buddy's Xterra in for servicing. It was a pearly white color and had leather and a sunroof, and really nicely equipped in general. I think they wanted something like $22K for it. I was kinda tempted! Sure, it doesn't get the fuel economy that a Prius does...but it doesn't look like one, either! :shades:
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I bet you weren't getting MPGs any better than the FR-S will get without all the complexity, and was it any more fun that a Fit Sport?

    I'd like to see KERS applied to sporty cars as opposed to gas-electic hybrids. I'm guessing they'll be able to get half the efficiency without giving up any of the fun.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I doubt it'll be much cheaper than a Prius, maybe $2 grand, tops.

    Sort of like comparing a Yaris to a Corolla, it's not much cheaper so most people just get the latter.

    To be honest I think the Insight failed not because of the price, but because it didn't win the MPG battle. Look - a lower price hasn't made much of a dent in sales.
  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
    I don't have any seat time with the Fit so I can't compare but it was more peppy/zippy than a Civic EX IMO.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    edited June 2011
    Well, the EX isn't really the sporty one, the Si is.

    In Europe some would argue the Type R is, and the Si is close.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    http://www.autoobserver.com/2011/06/key-toyota-battery-plant-resumes-output.html-

    Prius sales in the U.S. fell in May their lowest levels in more than five years

    That when gas prices were hovering around $4, too.

    They need this badly - Prius V and Prius C will only add to the need for batteries.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I think it is a combination of things hurting Prius sales.

    The market is saturated. It is a niche vehicle for the most part. Not everyone thinks they are cool.
    Buyers waiting to see the next version
    Dealers gouging on existing stock. Still several hundred available in So CA.
    Many other options that get close to the Prius mileage for a lot less money.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I agree...

    The real reason sales dropped that drastically is prices are higher. You located stock - but we observed full MSRP or even higher pricing.

    Consumers won't pay that unless a product is new and hot, and the Prius is neither.

    It's tricky to strike a balance - Toyota doesn't want to run out of cars to sell, but then again I think they overdid it in May. Incentives are back for June, I saw low finance rates being advertised, but it only applied to a few American made models.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    It is a very tricky balance. If I go to look at a car and the dealer is trying to hold me up, I never visit that dealer again. I also tell all my friends. I would not expect them to sell the Prius at invoice in this market. I would expect them to deal some below MSRP. Too many choices that compete on a TCO basis. The TCO on a loaded Prius which seems to be available, is higher than a loaded VW Sportswagen TDI.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    VW lowered prices on the new Jetta TDI, and Passat too.

    Thing is, they're not nearly as nice as before.

    I'd be looking at a TDI Golf instead, they haven't spoiled that one.

    I'd like to see VW add stop-start tech and sell it here. That would steal a bunch of Prius sales to city dwellers.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    http://fitzmall.com/

    Same dealer, for apples to apples.

    Jetta wagon TDI DSG is $26,006, and they have 8 in stock.

    Prius is $29k, full MSRP, and they only have 1 in stock.

    That's insanity. $3k higher and they're selling out? Sheesh, buy a 100k mile warranty on the VW if you're worried about reliability. You'd still have $2 grand left.

    Crazy.
  • robr2robr2 Member Posts: 8,805
    But you know why - it's a hybrid vs a diesel. In your area, I would expect the former to sell for higher than the latter.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    I guess the WSJ isn't using Edmunds' resources to find Prii.

    Shoppers Scramble for Toyota Prius as Gas Stays Pricey

    "Some analysts had suggested that everyone who wanted a fuel-sipping car probably bought one already, but the market seems to be saying otherwise."
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Well, it used to be the other way around. You could get a Prius for $21 or 22k to start, while a TDI VW was nice but commanded high 20s.

    I guess loaded Priuses go up there, but $29k to start is painful.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    There must be regional shortages. That and/or dealers want people to think that, so they don't balk at the MSRP prices.

    Fitzmall's web site is usually lags a bit so I bet that last Prius sold and they're out. Other dealers will trade but not if a product is profitable and popular, and usually they want another popular model in exchange.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    "After delaying its regularly scheduled fiscal guidance to assess the impact of the disaster, Toyota said today its profits likely will drop by about $1.6 billion compared with this year -- but a stepped-up manufacturing pace in the second half of the year will help mitigate the damage to the company’s bottom line."

    Earthquake Shakes Toyota Profits By $1.6 Billion (AutoObserver)
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    It is a very tricky balance. If I go to look at a car and the dealer is trying to hold me up, I never visit that dealer again.

    Unfortunately, many dealers have the same stupid short term focus as corporate America and Wall Street. Vehicles are getting closer to each other and there are usually lots of dealers out there. Ford claims they can now lower hybrid costs, so that may put a bit of pressure on Toyota's bottom line. But Toyota has become another GM, geared to margins and volume. As their quality differential fades, their pricing power does too. My current Camry is nowhere close to my previous ones and I no longer feel any particular affinity toward them. I think Toyota really stepped on their crank and it is hurting them, but I also think they will come back and continue to be a factor in the market.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    "Toyota Motor Corp. said that it has received a staggering 52,000 orders from Japanese customers for the roomy all-new Prius Alpha wagon model – more than the automaker can produce this year. The huge demand – which a U.S. Toyota spokesman said won't affect the planned launch of the model here – has caused Toyota to boost production to 5,000 a month from the originally planned 3,000 units."

    Japan's Demand for Prius Wagon Far Exceeds Supply (AutoObserver)

    image
  • obyoneobyone Member Posts: 7,841
    I'm wondering whose definition of staggering is being used. 52K?
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    The planned launch here is almost a year from now. I do think it will sell if they can find the components to build enough. I would guess about $35k for a midrange version. The regular Base one Prius which is non existent starts about $24k and goes to $30k. So with a starting price of $29k don't expect to find one until at least 2013 for under $35k, probably close to $40k.
  • halsworthyhalsworthy Member Posts: 12
    One positive for Toyota is that it is absolutely destroying Honda in the hybrid class. But overall bad for Japan I'd say.
  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
    Sadly, I agree. Toyota has such a lead in the hybrid race it'll be tough for anyone to catch up. Honda was probably their most formidable competitor but they haven't been able to match them in mileage or sales... I think they have their eggs in the future of hydrogen power instead.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    edited June 2011
    You're both right, even thew new Civic hybrid hasn't helped.

    I wonder if the government of Japan will re-introduce those hybrid incentives since so many vehicles were damaged or destroyed during the tsunami? I believe they expired recently.

    52k is a lot of pre-orders. It's about what the entire MINI brands sells in a good year, and that's 4 models (Coupe, Convertible, Countryman, and Clubman) in all powertrain variations (base, S, JCW) combined.

    We are talking about one model variant, with one powertrain. An expensive one at that.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Looks a little better, but I'm more interested to see the inside. I hate the center mounted gauges, and wonder if they ditched those.
  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
    edited June 2011
    The second picture shows the gages moved to the tradional spots behind the steering wheel but AB is using pictures from a Hungarian Toyota site so it may not be the case when it comes to the US.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I missed that, nice catch.

    Soooooo much better than the outgoing interior.

    Reminds me a little of the Fiat 500 inside.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    It's caught up to them, even after dropping incentives last month:

    Toyota Motor Sales U.S.A.'s inventory has plummeted by nearly 50 percent since March 1, falling to 198,900 vehicles on June 1, from 384,200 on March 1

    Read more: http://www.autonews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20110613/RETAIL01/306139864/1- 424#ixzz1PSO23L3h
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    http://www.autoblog.com/2011/06/16/honda-fit-shuttle-goes-on-sale-in-japan-in-ga- s-and-hybrid-spec/

    Interesting - Honda's makes the same mileage as the small Fit.

    Toyota shortened gearing so it can get out of its own way, but gave up a few MPG.

    I actually think the hybrid market may prefer Honda's strategy. Maybe they will steal a few sales away.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Unfortunately Japan will take much longer.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    http://www.autoblog.com/2011/06/17/toyota-says-na-production-to-recover-by-septe- mber-earlier-than/

    US production at full steam by September, but Japan only by December at the earliest.
  • robr2robr2 Member Posts: 8,805
    It's not called "Whole Wallet" for nothin'!!
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Funny video, did Toyota pay for that?
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Nah, it's a spoof of the store by some drama group. Cracked me up, though.
  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    Since this subject came up here a few posts back...

    I saw one of the new Fiat 500s last Saturday close-up and personal, and the build quality really looked great. If Fiat can establish a more robust dealer network, IMO it should be a good selling car...
  • roho1roho1 Member Posts: 318
    Never heard of them. Did a google and found one that just opened near me. I surmise they are big $$$$$$$.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 20,784
    It's 6 things for 80 bucks. bro. ;)
    2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • halsworthyhalsworthy Member Posts: 12
    It looks like the immediate fortunes of Toyota in the US will be resting firmly on the shoulders of the Prius

    http://www.freep.com/article/20110622/BUSINESS01/106220351/Prius-line-could-Toyo- ta-s-top-seller
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    If Toyota depends on the Prius to pull them out of the doldrums, they are in deep trouble. While they may sell more than in the past. They are not a high profit margin car. Building Prius are limited by several assemblies being available. Batteries being the biggest single cost item. If Panasonic decides to up the price Toyota will be held captive. Cost of rare earths has risen sharply. Will Toyota absorb those higher costs in building the hybrids? With several competitors now getting 40 MPG, the Prius will have to be competitively priced.
  • robr2robr2 Member Posts: 8,805
    But you are forgetting one factor - Prius buyers don't shop on price. You can't put a value on smugness.
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