Toyota on the mend?

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Comments

  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Sure they do. Before the shortages, lots of dealers (like Fitzmall) were selling them at invoice.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Early adopters don't worry too much about price. They are the Geeky Eco Nuts that just have to show how green they are. Most people that bought Prius wanted the most bang for their buck. And an HOV sticker. Which CA no longer offers hybrid owners. So Toyota will have to compete with other vehicles after the initial swarm is satisfied. The Prius wagon will have a lot of interest. I would not expect anyone will get one under $30k. And it gives up 12% in mileage over the last generation.
  • robr2robr2 Member Posts: 8,805
    First - my smug comment was a joke.

    IMHO, Ftizmall is an anomoly. AFAIK, their pricing scheme never is even close to MSRP for hot sellers. Besides, they only affect their area. A dealer in Boston may not care what the car is selling for in MD.
  • robr2robr2 Member Posts: 8,805
    So Toyota will have to compete with other vehicles after the initial swarm is satisfied.

    The initial swarm has been going on for almost a decade now.....

    The initial development costs have been absorbed and the improvements should now more cost effective to produce.

    Yes, the Prius will have to compete more with other cars but many folks like the idea of the hybrid system in comparison with electric only (range anxiety), diesel (dirty reputation) or more efficient gasoline engines (still relies 100% of fossil fuels).

    Since Toyota is expanding the line - and probably into it's own brand - it'll still be a successful endeavor IMHO.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited June 2011
    When i tested one back in Boise, oh, maybe two years ago now, the dealer was willing to negotiate off MSRP. That was on a Prius II. I was just tire kicking so didn't pursue a real number.

    And yeah, they've been around a decade now, so the early adopters got 'em long ago.

    The gas bubble started crimping supplies a bit and then the earthquake really hammered production. Now that gas is easing, demand (and prices), may ease too. But there is a bit of excitement over the bigger v version.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    or more efficient gasoline engines (still relies 100% of fossil fuels).

    The Prius requires 100% fossil fuel minus the ethanol we all get to live with. In my opinion the hybrid is still overly complex. When people start comparing a non hybrid that gets 40 MPG and costs $10,000 to $15,000 less, it will require someone really wanting to make a statement. I don't think with gas at $4 per gallon the Prius is cost effective. A nicely equipped Camry with 4 cylinder auto will have a lower TCO than a comparably equipped Prius.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited June 2011
    Well, since I was interested in the Prius II, I compared TCO numbers with it and a comparably priced Camry, the SE.

    Prius Two 4dr Hatchback
    (1.8L 4-cyl. Hybrid CVT Automatic)
    MSRP from $23,520
    Fuel economy: 51 city/48 hwy mpg
    True Cost To Own* $34,219

    Camry SE Sedan
    (2.5L 4-cyl. 6-speed Automatic)
    MSRP from $23,965
    Fuel economy: 22 city/33 hwy mpg
    True Cost To Own* $37,776

    Assuming that's a reasonable comparison, the Prius has a better bang for buck.
  • robr2robr2 Member Posts: 8,805
    The Prius requires 100% fossil fuel

    For the IC engine but not for the batteries hence it's total fuel requirement is not 100% fossil fuels.

    Now let's go to the next step - let's put those new more efficient gasoline engines into a hybrid system. That's would even be better.

    When people start comparing a non hybrid that gets 40 MPG and costs $10,000 to $15,000 less, it will require someone really wanting to make a statement.

    Can you show me a non hybrid getting 40 MPG for $10K-$15K less than the base $25K Prius??
  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
    Can you show me a non hybrid getting 40 MPG for $10K-$15K less than the base $25K Prius??

    Not that this is even remotely in the same class but...

    Smart Fortwo

    :D
  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
    link title

    image

    I think this thing is pretty sweet but others may hate the design. :shades:
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,691
    edited June 2011
    >Before the shortages, lots of dealers (like Fitzmall) were selling them at invoice.

    Naaah. Back in 2003 Toyota forum people were telling me that Toyota and Honda never had to discount their cars with rebates/incentives.

    Things must have changed. ;)

    image

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    The Hyundai Accent is $15k and it gets 40 MPG HWY. My son in law's Yaris was $12k and he averages 40 MPG regularly. You would be hard pressed to find a Prius base model. If they even import them. You can bet the ones coming soon will be well past $25k. When the earthquake hit Japan there were 2500 Prius in So CA. Not a single "one" in the bunch.
  • robr2robr2 Member Posts: 8,805
    OK - the absolute base model 2012 Accent is $12.5K but it's really not an apples to apples comparison on features. IMHO, anyone who'd go for a base model Accent isn't a Prius shopper. That shopper is a rock bottom price is the most important thing shopper. That vehicle would be like a prison sentence compared the the Prius.

    You have to look beyond your own biases as well. Prius shoppers for the most part care about the image they project. They aren't going to buy a base accent.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited June 2011
    Well, you could say that. But you could say that about Dodge Ram truck owners, or MINI owners or C-Class owners. All going for a certain image. Or maybe they need to tow, like go karts or like good lease deals.

    The guy cruising around in a minivan and a wagon looking for his next ride may just be going for that bang for buck and decent mpg image when he shops a Prius.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    edited June 2011
    I think you have hit it on the head. The guy looking for a decent high mileage vehicle will shop the Prius as the mileage leader. If sticker shock does not run him off he may decide the few extra MPG are worth the added cost over a comparable non hybrid vehicle. That means no matter how much people would like to see the Prius as Toyota's number one seller it is just not likely to happen. There is too much out there that offers more for less. It just costs Toyota more to make a hybrid. No way it can be built as cheap as a Camry or a Corolla that is closer in size.

    Even before the disaster the Prius had dropped off in sales. May sales were off from the previous year by 47%. That in spite of high priced gas over the last year. The current model Prius has lost its pizazz. Will the 5th gen Prius help regain the momentum. Time will tell. Looks like we won't know until 2012.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,510
    Acceptable from the side, but direct front and rear views are pretty heinous.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited June 2011
    NPR is reporting that Toyota is going to spin Prius off as a separate brand.

    No details or confirmation from Toyota that I really see in the story though.

    As Rivals Unveil Hybrids, Toyota Boosts Prius

    Recent news stories that 75,000 Prius deliveries would be coming the US this year were in error. Toyota is now saying 36,000 deliveries over the summer, but they can't confirm numbers beyond then. (Reuters)
  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
    edited June 2011
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I am glad to see MB moving up the list as I may buy one. Lexus offers nothing that interests me. And our local dealer is horrible. I don't think buyers are as interested either now that Lexus has lost its sales title this year so far. Will they end up in the number 3 or 4 spot for 2011?
  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
    I agree and I am glad to see Benz getting back to their quality standards that the were known for before their cost-cutting "episode" half a decade ago.

    As far as Lexus models go, I still like the IS and I think it is probably one of their most appealing models, even after being around for 6 years. If I lived in a place that didn't have snow, I would probably be interested in the CT hybrid as well.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I have to say the CT hybrid has some appeal for me. It just has no room for adult passengers. Being older and having older friends that go places with us, that is very important in my vehicle buying. Also low vehicles are harder for me and I assume others to get in and out of. Of all the vehicles I have looked at over the last few years, the Mercedes ML is the most comfortable front and back seat. My Sequoia is very comfortable. Though just a bit high for entry. And I made the mistake of getting the Limited with bucket seats in the second row. Making it strictly a 4 passenger vehicle with the rear seats stored. Too many compromises in what ever I look at.
  • obyoneobyone Member Posts: 7,841
    And our local dealer is horrible.

    Is that the one involved in that lawsuit for the floormats?
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    One in the same Bob Baker El Cajon Lexus. My wife bought her LS400 there in 1989. Going over the service records which she has since purchase, I found several over charges for service ($900 oil changes). They take advantage of women. When we went looking for a new SUV we checked out a LX470 they had. The sales person was less than competent. Or should I say he was clueless as to the vehicles he was selling. That was before the fiasco with the E350 that killed the Saylor family and sent Toyota into free fall.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Holy smoke! $900 oil changes? Geeze, and I thought the $180 I heard for a Rolls-Royce oil change was insane! This guy is a Madoff-class crook!
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    I found several over charges for service ($900 oil changes). They take advantage of women.

    I don't think it's unique to Lexus. Almost all dealerships are like this. You know that the service writer is often commissioned?

    I found out the hard way a decade or so ago when I naively took our Mercury Villager in for a major (60K?) service to the dealer. I told the service writer I wanted the 60K service. Well when I got the car home after the service I happened to open the hood and noticed that the plastic coolant cap on the overflow tank was still taped with masking tape where I had taped it a month before when the cap had cracked. The dealership was supposed to change the coolant, so I'd figured they'd take care of the cap. The coolant level was low and the cap was untouched. So then I checked the air filter and it had not been changed! On the receipt it didn't itemize those things, it just said "major service". Yet they managed to charge me extra for some other value-added service I don't remember that was not on the 60K schedule! I was really p$ssed.

    I learned that day that when you go in to any dealer for service, you explicitly itemize what you want done. Copy it right out of the manual. It keeps them from modifying the services. But the best route is an independent mechanic unless it's something that absolutely requires the dealer.
  • mac24mac24 Member Posts: 3,910
    But the best route is an independent mechanic unless it's something that absolutely requires the dealer.

    Or if you have the capability, do it yourself, then you know it's done correctly.
    The only time the dealer works on my vehicles is if it's a warranty issue.

    Some people don't like to have an independent mechanic service their vehicle, or do the work themselves for fear of voiding the warranty.
    This is a fallacy. As long as as the work is done correctly using the correct materials, then neither the dealer nor the manufacturer can void the warranty because it wasn't serviced by a dealer.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    Soooooo much better than the outgoing interior.

    Ooooh yes, I will second that, and loudly! The interior of the current Yaris is so dull and tacky, especially the sedan's.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    "One place Toyota remains No. 1 is with minority car buyers — Latinos, African-Americans and Asian-Americans continue to buy more Toyotas than any other car brand, domestic or foreign."

    Toyota Steers Ads To Bring In More Minority Buyers (NPR)
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    You forgot blue hairs!

    Toyota really is what Buick used to be - doesn't bother me because I like that quiet, smooth ride in the Interstate.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,510
    I can believe it. First thing a lot of the more educated/working new residents do in my area is go out and buy/lease a new lowline or midline Camcord/Civrolla, and then have fun on the roads.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    I forgot about the Greens too, off galavanting in their Prii.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,691
    Priuses aren't green enough now to use the special HOV lanes with only 1 driver.

    "Prius, other hybrids lose Calif. carpool lane access today"


    So much for the smugness of Prius drivers.

    They need to buy a Volt: "So trade that old Prius for the likes of a modified-for-California Chevrolet Volt extended-range electric, Nissan Leaf battery car or a plug-in hybrid and jump back into the HOV lanes when you're flying solo."

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Sounds like the Toyota Plug in Prius is on its way. Probably won't get here in time for a buyer to score one of the 40,000 stickers though.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I don't see the Volt on the list at CARB. Best bet is a Crown Vic, Lincoln Navigator or F150 running on CNG. Those all qualify for the White HOV sticker good till 2015. The guy I sold my RV to, has a small fleet of the Crown Vic CNG vehicles he bought surplus from the state. And has HOV stickers on them for his Janitorial crew. He says they are the best and run forever.

    Here is the list of what passes. I don't think many of them are available to the general public.

    http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/carpool/carpool.htm
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited July 2011
    GM is coming out with one; doubt that Toyota will go that direction since they are so into hybrids. But if Japan winds up with a lot of natural gas replacing lost nuclear power, they may take a look.

    Personally I think the CNG vehicles have to trickle down from the truck and bus fleet for another decade before people really consider them for passenger cars.

    hpmctorque, "Natural Gas - The Next Big Fuel?" #1, 2 Jul 2011 6:03 am
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I think you are right about the trickle down to passenger fleet. Right now the PHILL units for the home are hard to come by. I think they went into bankruptcy. Honda never pushed the GX. Knowing what I know now I would not consider one. If I drove a LOT on the same route, yes they may be good. No way could you take off for Las Vegas and make it. There are some huge reserves of NG around the world. And possibly untold trillions of cubic feet locked in the ice in the Arctic. Getting from the source to the need is the problem. I think the US is missing the boat again by not pushing for GTL as they are in places like Qatar.

    I don't think Japan is wise to try and convert from Nuke to NG. It would all have to be shipped in at high cost. LNG is being shipped there from Australia since the earthquake. I don't think Japan has any NG reserves.
  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
    edited July 2011
    Chevrolet Volt tech is "obsolete" compared to Toyota Prius Plug-in


    The Toyota Prius Plug-in has an estimated range of 13 miles in electric-only mode. Then, the plug-in Prius switches over to Toyota's fuel-sipping hybrid mode. In the non-plug-in Prius, that system is good for 51 miles per gallon in the city and 48 mpg on the highway. Meanwhile, after the Volt switches over to its gasoline-burning mode, most road tests have shown it's not that fuel efficient. In fact, Popular Mechanics found their Volt got just 32 mpg in the city and 36 mpg highway.

    As we all know, 51 > 32


    But it all boils down to price. Stickered with a base price of $41,000, the Volt ain't cheap. Pricing for the Prius Plug-In, though not officially confirmed, is expected to start at approximately $28,000, meaning that it will likely undercut the Volt's MSRP by more than $10,000
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    If the Plug-in Prius only has a 13 mile EV range it will probably miss the target for the $7500 tax credit. That is based on battery wattage. Toyota has likely put a smaller battery to save on cost and weight. It is the battery that runs up the price of the Volt.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    Of course, even without the tax credit the Prius will be $5000 cheaper than the Volt.

    I am curious to see what the new Prius C will do for mileage - Toyota has promised that it will be the new mpg leader once it arrives. Of course it will be too small for many folks, given its subcompact size. If it averages 60 mpg or more, though, I think it will find plenty of buyers once gas gets back up to $5/gallon next year.

    Too bad there's no stick shift planned.....

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Too bad there's no stick shift planned.

    Just like diesels, the automakers don't send them to our SHIFTLESS Society. :P
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Naaah. Back in 2003 Toyota forum people were telling me that Toyota and Honda never had to discount their cars with rebates/incentives.

    Things must have changed.


    Yeah, the domestics went from offering $1000 cash back to offering $4000 cash back.

    So now Toyota has to offer $1000 back to stay in the same price class, at least. They don't live in a vacuum.

    Import brands have indeed increased incentives, but so have domestics. I bet the margin between the two really hasn't changed significantly.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    edited July 2011
    I'm with you on your thinking re: Prius sales.

    The emerging "40mpg Club" of premium compacts will no doubt take a bite out of Prius sales, but Prius has enjoyed sitting on that perch for a long time, so competitors are bound to go after them.

    It just so happens that it wasn't another hybrid that did it.

    IMHO what will steal sales away are loaded up premium compacts. Elantra Premium has heated rear seats and 40mpg. Or a loaded Cruze, Focus, Mazda3 SkyActiv, Civic HF, etc.

    You can get those for low 20s, cheaper than a Prius, and only give up 10mpg or so highway. Many will say "close enough" and pocket the $5 grand savings.

    Subcompacts won't do too much damage - remember the Prius just barely eeks in the mid-size range.

    Prius may be in more trouble when the Elantra Touring arrives, since it's a hatch. 5 door Focus models should already be taking a few sales away. Subaru will soon offer a 2.0l Impreza 5 door with 35mpg, and that's with AWD. Prius can say goodbye to more than a few snow belt sales.

    There's a lot of pressure on Toyota to make more than just evolutionary improvements to justify the added cost since non-hybrids are so much more fuel efficient now.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Will they end up in the number 3 or 4 spot for 2011?

    After the tsunami, what did you expect?

    Their single new model has zero supply.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    $900 oil changes

    Must've been more than that...

    The sales person was less than competent

    Perhaps the same guy ordered the wrong floor mats later found in the wreckage.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    do it yourself, then you know it's done correctly

    Bingo.

    I bought a used car, and the seller gave me receipts for major service, including all fluid changes.

    I changed them again anyway.

    Oil was OK, trans was OK, rear diff... A-HA! Not OK. Melted chocolate.

    It was right there on the receipt, but they never changed it.

    DIY is the only way to be 100% sure it gets done.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    edited July 2011
    Volt shouldn't be eligible for those HOV lanes, either. In reality it's a mild hybrid (eletric+gas, reversed), because the gas engine does help propel the vehicle.

    Note how secretive GM was about it all.

    Edit: Gary beat me to it, Volt not listed.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Toyota to begin offering AC outlets in the Prius in Japan

    Read more: http://www.autonews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20110719/OEM04/110719897/1490- #ixzz1SaQbgEtQ

    No doubt trying to capitalize on the idea that energy is scarce.

    I wonder if the Japanese government will extend that hybrid credit that expired last year? Maybe not since PHEVs are one the way already.
  • robr2robr2 Member Posts: 8,805
    No doubt trying to capitalize on the idea that energy is scarce.

    That's a bit of a stretch. Probably more like "hey people like having AC outlets in the car." IIRC, various companies have offered AC outlets in vehicles for years - including Pontiac in the Vibe. Yes I know it's technically a Toyota.
  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 17,072
    IIRC, various companies have offered AC outlets in vehicles for years - including Pontiac in the Vibe. Yes I know it's technically a Toyota.

    The Avalon had it from 2000 - 2004. The 05+ dropped it.

    2025 Ram 1500 Laramie 4x4 / 2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Icon I6L Golf Cart

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