Toyota on the mend?

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Comments

  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,494
    The first one didn't sell too well either, but the second one seemed very popular, and could be had in varied configurations. But the third one, snooze city, and now it's quite old, too, much older than the competition. It was invisible and overpriced even before the Genesis existed. The replacement is needed no matter how it sells.

    Lexus does have a fanbase who will open their wallets - if they didn't, sales wouldn't be as strong as they are, as the vehicles seldom offer anything over the Europeans other than sometimes cheaper running costs. Now, these fanboys will not be enough to make specialty models sell like the competition, especially in the global market, but they do make an impact.

    Overall, Lexus does have resistance, and in many ways, rightfully so. Terribly bland nouveau-riche image that is seen as worse than the [non-permissible content removed] image of the competition.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    the vehicles seldom offer anything over the Europeans

    Dunno about that. They may not be things you want, in fact I'm sure they aren't, but you get coddling interiors, tech gadgets, tomb-like silence, isolation from NVH, etc.

    It's not your cup of tea, but you have to realize not everyone drinks the same tea!

    Would you recommend an AMG to everyone? Of course not.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,494
    You can get those ideals in other cars. I still find it funny how those traits aren't so appealing elsewhere, the success of Lexus is very much a North American ideal, which is also where the most oblivious drivers reside.

    Not comparing any tuned cars to marshmallow Lexus iso-tanks, either. IMO the only really appealing car in the lineup ends with an F. We'll see if a GS-F really gets born and can compete.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    edited August 2011
    GS-F would be a good halo for the GS line, but we both know they need a solid volume model.

    I'd like to see even a GS350 F Sport package that is competent.

    Just add a button labeled "My Mother-in-law is in the car" to soften the ride up a little, a-la-Audi's Dynamic thingy.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,494
    The most solid volume models of the competition all have tuned variants now and have for years - I don't know if Lexus can afford to wait much longer. So long as they don't price it crazy, it will sell - people buy IS-Fs without a problem. A sport package at the very least, they have kind of a half baked one for the LS now, and every driver of a base IS250 auto in my area seems to think it is a sports car, so it's not a stretch.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I agree, but what I'm saying is that the non-tuned models have to at least offer a truly sporty package, else the GS will be stereotyped as dull.

    IS250 is perhaps Toyota Corp's worst car. Too small, too soft, too much body roll, and on top of all that, the 2.5l V6 DI has intake port build-up issues which the 3.5l does not have.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,494
    Certainly, offer a sport appearance and handling package as an option, leading to the tuned model. It's a recipe that has worked for the Germans for many years.

    I wonder if any customers might be turned off by a sporty image if the product actually backs it up. Around here, it seems like it might scare away the average Lexus driver :shades:
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    edited August 2011
    What do they say, you can sell an old man a young man's car?

    They'll be fine. Just default the dynamic suspension to "soft". LOL
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,494
    Seriously, that will need to be the default setting.

    I've still seen only one IS cabrio with the top down. Too scary.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I don't get the point of those...there's no back seat at all. Same with the Infiniti G drop-top. Even my 8 year old can't fit, not in either.

    At least BMW had the sense to give the 3 series hard top a useful back seat. I guess they have the Z4 if you don't need one.

    I can't even consider an IS or G folding hard top. Price on 3 series drop top is too dear, even CPO.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Funny how they spin it, but this is a copy of the 2GR-FSE engine:

    http://www.autoblog.com/2011/08/05/meet-audis-new-engine-the-1-8-tfsi/

    thanks in part to the clever use of both direct and indirect injection

    That's exactly what the 2GR-FSE does. It's Lexus' 3.5l V6.

    What Audi is not revealing is that their DI engines have issues with carbon build-up due to exhaust gas recirculation.

    The new engine injects gas the old fashioned way, so the intake runners are rinsed clean and nothing builds-up. In DI engines, the gas mix never occupies the intake runners, being directly injected in the cylinder only.

    Of course Audi doesn't want to admit that, because they would have to acknowledge the flaws in their old design.

    To be fair, Lexus' own 2.5l DI engine from the IS250 has similar issues to Audi's 2.0T engine.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    most consumers intending to buy Toyotas and Hondas seem to be sticking with those brands rather than defecting to other makes when the car they want is not in stock.

    Read more: http://www.autonews.com/article/20110805/BLOG06/110809879/1493#ixzz1UBs09ww1

    Not only are customers unwilling to switch vehicle lines, they're coming back to Sonic when the vehicles are available. He doesn't have specifics, but [non-permissible content removed] says those stores are taking lots of deposits.


    I'm surprised they didn't find buyers defecting to Hyundai.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,494
    I saw one of the G cabrios in a local car ad, with a manual! Must be like one of a couple dozen made. I think I have only seen a few actually on the road.

    The Lexus cabrio is just funny...the Lexus crowd seems way to scaredy cat to actually lower the top.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Shoot...my top is rarely up! If the weather is bad I drive another car. LOL
  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
    I would live with one of these if I was a city dweller...

    link title

    Although as the infrastructure builds for electric cars like the Leaf and Mitsu iMiEV, I would probably choose one of those first but if I was on a budget...
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    According to Edmund's it is only available with a stinking CVT transmission. Not a chance I would consider that. Kind of appealing otherwise.
  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
    Prius Plug-in deliveries set for March 2012

    As for the Prius Plug-in's MSRP, how does a ballpark figure of below $30,000 sound?
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    The price means little without the EV only range. The bigger the battery the higher the cost. $30k for a plug-in with a 10 mile range that I have heard tossed around is not such a bargain. If it has the same 40 mile range of the Volt and that $30k figure is less the $7500 gift from the taxpayers, then it is a bargain. The size of the gift is directly related to the size of the battery.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Besides the CVT (they are hit or miss IMHO), the price is also sort of high. It costs a whole bunch more than the more practical Yaris.

    Plus, a new Yaris is on the horizon.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Prius EV will do OK mostly because a lot of current owners will upgrade.

    I'm more interested in the Prius V and particularly the C, which should be most both the cheapest and the most fuel efficient.

    The Insight never quite delivered on the hype.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    edited August 2011
    Toyota is down to 34 days' worth of supply. I think they're putting a bit of spin on the speed of recovery...seems like even with slow sales they're not building enough cars. Domestic or import.

    Dealers are doing well, though, selling 94 cars per store:

    http://www.autonews.com/assets/PDF/CA7497888.PDF

    Tied at the top with just 19 days' is Subaru and Hyundai/Kia, but I imagine for different reasons. Subaru can't make enough Foresters and Imprezas. Hyundai/Kia is picking up some of the slack for Japanese brands and is selling every car they can build.

    Saab has plenty of cars but only crickets chirping in dealers.
  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
    link title

    I actually like this one alot. Obviously tho, this looks to be the SE model. Will be curious how it drives.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    The lights and front bumper are a little busy, reminds me of some Acuras, minus the dorky grille.

    Profile looks better, though.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Cadillac, Toyota brands top satisfaction index while BMW drops

    Read more: http://www.autonews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20110816/RETAIL03/110819942/1- 246#ixzz1VCuMLDpJ

    "Toyota makes a fair amount of fairly low-priced cars. For them to be that well-received is impressive, especially when you have a company like BMW scoring lower."

    I don't put too much weight in these studies, but still a good sign.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    the plug-in Prius has a fuel consumption rating of 2.2 L/100km (106.9 mpg US/128.4 mpg UK)

    Read more: http://www.autonews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20110815/COPY01/308159870/119- 3#ixzz1VCvDsCgL

    What's interesting is the battery is Li-ion in this one, which is lighter and more energy-dense than NiMH. It's risky because they heat up more and we've seen many (many) recalls for fire hazards in laptops and such, but I guess they feel comfortable now using this tech.

    Volt has been using Li-ion, so GM actually used them in production first.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    http://www.autoblog.com/2011/08/17/cadillac-lexus-toyota-tie-for-lead-in-custome- r-satisfaction-in/

    Both Toyota and Lexus were up for '11. They wrote:

    it seems Toyota's fall from grace in the minds of consumers was just a small blip in a long history of customer satisfaction
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I'm actually relieved, it looks a lot better than the concept did, toning it down made it look better:

    http://www.autoblog.com/2011/08/18/2013-lexus-gs350/

    I actually like the hourglass shape of the "spindle grille", reminds me of an ex-girlfriend, LOL.

    For comparison, here is the concept, way over done IMHO:

    http://www.autoblog.com/2011/04/12/lexus-unveils-lf-gh-ahead-of-new-york-debut/
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,494
    edited August 2011
    All that hype, and this is what they give us. Yawn. Looks like a bloated hybrid of a HS and IS. Weird random details, the maw is funny but not offensive, C-pillar door area trim is weird. Ze Ghermans aren't shaking in their boots, especially with Audi slashing A6 prices.
  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 17,058
    I don't mind the car as a whole, but, that grill just ruins the front for me.

    2025 Ram 1500 Laramie 4x4 / 2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Icon I6L Golf Cart

  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
    I actually like it alot. Love the interior and the 12" screen rocks! Also, materials have never been low rent on most Lexus cars and this one looks like they put the usual high quality bits in there, even if the design is a bit BMW'ish. Oh, and one thing that stands out for me is the current one looks like it's got a little too much "junk in the trunk". This one looks lighter to me and more athletic.

    I'm torn on the grill treatment, maybe it works better with different colors.

    The current one is a slow seller IIRC, so there is nowhere to go but up in that dept. :D
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    This could be a real big one. Survivors often get more than family of victims. Toyota may regret settling with the family for $10 million. How much will the innocent victim get?

    Survivor of 2009 Lexus crash files lawsuit

    SAN DIEGO — A Santee man who survived a violent crash two years ago when his sport utility vehicle was hit by a runaway Lexus filed a lawsuit Thursday against Toyota and the El Cajon car dealership that loaned the luxury sedan.

    Philip Pretty suffered a concussion and other injuries Aug. 28, 2009, when the Lexus slammed into his Ford Explorer and careened into a riverbed.

    California Highway Patrol Officer Mark Saylor and three of his family members were killed in the fiery crash, which attorneys for the family have said was caused when the car suddenly accelerated and Saylor was unable to slow down the vehicle.

    The 2009 Lexus ES350 was a loaner provided by Bob Baker Lexus of El Cajon while the family’s car was being repaired.

    Pretty, 54, is suing Toyota Motor Corp., Bob Baker Lexus and other entities in San Diego Superior Court, claiming product liability, failure to warn consumers of a defective condition in the vehicles and negligence.

    His attorney, Gayle Blatt, said Toyota had been warned for years of problems with sudden, unintended acceleration in cars with similar electronic throttle control systems. Despite this, she said, the company did not fix the problem or equip its automobiles with a brake override system to stop a car like the one Saylor was driving.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    failure to warn consumers of a defective condition

    Unfortunately for his case, the investigation found the wrong floor mat in that car, so the liability is the dealership's.

    I think he'd be better off waiting to see what settlement the dealer reaches with the Saylor estate first. I bet they want more than $10M and Bob Baker isn't offering that much (they deserve more).
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    this is what they give us

    I don't think you would have liked it no matter what they put out.

    When the Asians take risks you call it cartoonish, when they're conservative you yawn.

    You not liking it was a foregone conclusion. Lexus will be fine if former Lexus owners like it. As mentioned above they usually wait for new models rather than defect to other brands.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,494
    edited August 2011
    Yeah, there are other directions other than risky or conservative. Other makers seem to be able to grasp this. You can't deny that they do have a knack for either cartoonish or boring designs, right? Admit it, right?

    Former Lexus owners will be the target for sure, unless this thing drives like a miracle, it won't win over many conquests.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    either cartoonish or boring

    Boring, sure, though I'm sure they prefer conservative.

    But cartoonish?

    The first RX was the "Faberge Egg", but since then it got toned down a lot. Twice. And if we go back that far, the first SC was neither boring nor cartoonish, too.

    The IS, GS, LS, and ES are all conservative. HS also.

    Say what you want about the RX, but it has the Germans copying them and rushing to fill that segment to this day.

    The GX and LX look fine for the truck class, even attractive.

    The only one left is the CT, and that's actually a nice looking hatch. In person you notice how much lower and leaner it is compared to the Prius.

    Where's the cartoonish car in the current lineup? There isn't one.

    BMW has one - the X6. Heck, maybe the 550 GT also.

    Acura's got one - the ZDX.

    Porsche has the impregnated Panamera. May be the ugliest car sold today.

    Benz has the A-class, and if you don't count that for not being sold here, or because the upcoming one looks better, the R-class is an ugly duckling and the GLK is sort of bull dog ugly, too.

    Can't wait to see the X6 competitor! LOL
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,494
    I didn't know the subject here was only Lexus, I thought it was Asian makes in general. Toyota has a pokemon face fetish, and the Honda group can make some iffy moves too, as you mention.

    I'd say the first RX was actually the soundest design, the second and third are the Faberge eggs. Who is copying the RX? I think the ML is just as old. If you want to go back far enough, the first LS wasn't cartoonish either, it was a MB clone. The first SC was arguably the best Lexus design - ever.

    LS-F = angry hyperpokemon. X6 and ZDX are just ugly. Oh, Infiniti cars can be kinda cartoonish too, especially the FX - deranged mutant catfish. I think the ZDX and even FX are uglier than the Panamera.

    This is attractive???? :P ;)

    image

    Can't see how that thing is any better than a GLK or R or whatever.

    It all comes down to this - we got a truckload of hype about this GS, and it is pretty yawn inspiring.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Well, then we're talking about different things. Lexus is conservative, but not cartoonish, not at all.

    I think you wear German-branded blinders some times, fin.

    The SLR was more cartoonish than any Lexus ever. By far. The hood was straight out of a cartoon - Squidward from Sponge Bob Square Pants. Not cartoon-ish, an actual cartoon:

    image

    Even the SLK got it, though the new one thankfully got a nice rhinoplasty.

    I'm not sure why you seem to think the Asian brands have a monopoly on ugly...Panamera is probably the most offensive design in the market, followed by the X6. So to me the top 2 are German. ZDX and Juke are up there, so Japan is trying their best! (LOL), but Germany is still on top, in my book.

    Heck, even Infiniti is probably being influenced by French ownership, so I doubt the bionic cheetah was originally fude (*) on rice paper. More likely some French designer after a little too much wine!

    * Japanese caligraphy pen
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,494
    Yes, I didn't bring up the term cartoonish either, not for Lexus anyway (although the LS-F is cartoonish). Lexus tends to be boring or derivative, or at best, kind of odd. A few highlights, but a generally forgettable history in terms of styling.

    IMO the SLR was meant to be flamboyant, a rolling phallic symbol built for attention as much as speed, and it hit that mark. Your linked image doesn't work. Doesn't make me puke any less than the hyperpokemon LS-F.

    I can't see how a Panamera is worse than a ZDX or even a Crosstour, FX, Juke, and so on. Seeing as how Asian designs do embrace some cartoony traits, I wouldn't bet on the FX being a French design...and no matter, it likely wasn't a Frenchman who signed off on it, and remember where they are built.

    Maybe the next IS will be remarkable, the hype should be being brewed anytime now.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    edited August 2011
    I think you meant LF-A, and that car is about function.

    The slits and gills you see as "hyper" route the air on specific paths and all serve a function.

    I'm fine with it, just as I am with a whale tail on a 911, but not on a Civic. On the Porsche, it's there for a reason.

    I can't see how a Panamera...

    Simple: expectation. A Porsche is supposed to be beautiful. For the price even more so. Instead we get an impregnated blob.

    Sure the Juke is ugly but the teen who owns it is probably more worried about his own acne versus the pimples on his hood.

    Plus, the Juke has some ugly details. The overall shape is OK. Not so on the Porsche, it's a whole lot of ugly.

    it likely wasn't a Frenchman who signed off on it

    Carlos Ghosn is French, right?
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,494
    edited August 2011
    LF-A...meh. I need to find the image I saw of the front of a yellow one with some cartoon quote beside it. It has a dopey face, I can't see how those lights and maw really need to be that way. Someone thinks cartoon styling is cool.

    A Porsche is supposed to be beautiful? I can think of several models that aren't really pretty.

    Ugly details on a Juke - front, rear, side. I doubt most of them are driven by spoiled children of hoverparents, but by actual adults who think they are cool.

    The CEO of an entire group is the final sign off on every car? I can't imagine that's true. Excuses, excuses. Face it, in the majority of cases, many of these firms just don't create solid styling, and it is a historical trend. And I think Ghosn is actually a Brazilionaire-Lebanese hybrid :shades:
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Toyota's FT has solid styling, of course it's all subjective anyway

    Cayenne and Panamera, and the new Cayenne ain't nearly as bad.

    Gotta admit the tinted windows are so small I've never seen a Juke driver. Probably intentional. :D
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I just saw a brand new Cayenne. It looks like a cheap KorPan SUV from the rear. A real screwup from the previous model. I think the Touareg is the only really decent looking SUV on the road today. I could live with the X5 or ML. The R and X6 are pretty hideous. The LX is the only Lexus I could live with if it was diesel and capable of 30 MPG highway. The GX looks top heavy. The RX is not on my radar screen.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    You actually liked the first Cayenne? Not me, not the curb weights and not the melted blob styling.

    It was Porsche doing business rather than build great cars.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,494
    edited August 2011
    Toyota FT - does it really exist yet? Yeah, it is subjective, but we will see who is pining for what in 25 years.

    Cayenne has been unpretty and it continues to be so. Another one for expensive (unearned) status-conscious women.

    image

    image

    image

    image
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    we will see who is pining for what in 25 years

    You mean like they do for the AE86 predecessor?

    Besides being yellow, I don't see anything in common. The photographer (probably some German fanboy) seemed to go out of his way to show as little of the car as possible.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    image

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    image

    Dead ringer, and nothing to do with the color...
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,494
    edited August 2011
    A few go nuts over the AE86, but it is far from universal. If anything, it represents the beginning of the end of interesting Toyotas, before the days of beige vanilla ice milk took over.

    Excuses excuses, German fanboy, yeah right. Look at the goofy face on that thing, and then look at the other regional products with dopey faces. No coincidence. No need to defend it, your Sienna shares nothing with it :shades:
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,494
    I see it as some kind of bird with a big beak, maybe a toucan or something. It's dopey, but it was supposed to be more about style than the supremely overpriced LF-A to begin with.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    If you look at the front face of the LF-A and then the SLR, and you think the Lexus is the goofy one, you definitely drank the Kool-Aid at the Benz dealer.
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