Toyota on the mend?

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Comments

  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,494
    I'd rather drive ugly than a Pokemon ;)
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    My sister collects Pokemons....I'll ask her what car they remind her of. I'm sure she'll say Fiat 500 or Beetle, something tall and round and bubble shaped, basically nothing at all like the LF-A.

    Except the color.

    Now, put down the Kool-Aid...
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,494
    Do you not see the cartoony face there? The eyes and the mouth, and the generally blank and dopey expression?

    Who is wearing blinders here? ;)
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    You actually liked the first Cayenne?

    That might be a little strong. I wish there was an SUV I could say I really like the looks of. I prefer the Suburban box look. The Flex with a diesel and shorter would suit me well. The Cayenne looked fast as SUVs go. And it is fast in the Turbo model at 4.4 seconds 0-60. 500 hp and 22 MPG on the highway is pretty impressive. I don't think the Japanese can come close, nor our domestics. Even the sluggish non Turbo Cayenne will get you to 60 MPH in 5.6 seconds.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    You must've looked hard and long for the least flattering picture of the LF-A ever taken. An odd camera angle with a strange lens to boot.

    Any how, I see a rectangular grille, set low, a couple of brake vent ducts, and some triangular headlights. Not the car's best angle by a long shot, but neither ugly nor beautiful. For me the car's highlight is the C-pillar, something Lotus designers liked enough to copy on more than one of their recent concepts.

    Pikachu will be my next post (tongue in cheek)...
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    OK, objectively, let's take a close look.

    Pikachu is yellow. LF-A comes in 10 colors, so you're 10% right. For sport, I'll give it to you. 1 for 1.

    His eyes are round. LF-A has triangles. Opposites. 1 out 2.

    Body shape is rounded, plump. LF-A is low, squared off. 1 for 3.

    His ears go up and down - scissors doors, maybe? Not on LF-A. 1 for 4.

    Not looking good. Mouth is tall, grille is wide. 1 for 5.

    Tail doesn't match, either, 1 for 6.

    Like I thought, only the color.

    So, then, what would a pikachu car look like?

    I'm reading my C&D, and what do I come across? The MINI Cooper Coupe.

    Shall we?

    Round headlights for eyes, check.

    Body shape rounded and plump, check.

    Ears do not go up and down, but the rear spoiler does deploy.

    Upper and lower grille combine for a far more pikachu-like mouth, maybe he's smiling.

    Odd lightning bolt tail actually reminds me of the articulating hinges that raise the rear spoiler.

    If it comes in yellow, that's 5 out of 6.

    If Pikachu were a car, he'd be a yellow Mini Cooper Coupe!
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I'd rather drive ugly than a Pokemon

    Car & Driver just tested the McLaren MP4-12C and in that article they called the SLR "grotesquely overstyled".

    You can keep ugly all to yourself.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,494
    I looked for about 10 seconds. I don't see what is odd about the angle or the lens, just an unflattering pic of a less than pretty car.

    The C-pillar is interesting, with the intake moved to the window, don't know if it is original or good styling...an usurped once nearly dead old British name with Toyota engines and Malaysian ownership might not be the best signs of relevance :shades:

    Which exact dorky cartoon character the thing resembles isn't as important as the funny looks of the exact model. and the marque and region liking such themes to begin with. Yellow = check. Asian origin = check. Funny face = check. Maybe if it is lucky it will be a modern XJ220, developing a minor cult following 20 years after its birth.

    I've never defended the SLR as good styling...but I can't claim the LF-A is either. You can keep it with your "tasteful" bloated pretentious Lexus SUVs and invisible Kia mommy mobile crossovers that most certainly won't sell to cool college guys, as once claimed :shades:
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    You choose the character, not me, even shared photos. Fact is it looks nothing like that car, not even close.

    I wouldn't call the LF-A beautiful, but it's far from ugly, as you imply, plus the details you don't like are functional.

    What's not to like about the Lexus LX? Looks 1000 times better than the Kardashian's tacky chromed Benz G class. It's the least offensive of a tasteless segment.

    I'm not in love with Lexus styling, I just don't see them as ugly.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    The Benz G is what Oprah drives. It has the right classic off road look to it. A vehicle you could comfortably traverse the expanse of Africa in. You could do it in the LX, just not the one sold to US. The G may be coming over with a diesel. Not that I would buy one. I prefer the pre 2008 LX the new ones are just not my cup of tea.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Since when is Oprah known for her driving?

    G is all about bling today, sadly. You're more likely to see one (or six) on Rodeo Drive than Moab.

    Look at it - rain rails and all, it doesn't look classic, it IS classic.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,494
    edited August 2011
    I chose the dopey yellow one to match the dopey yellow car. I don't know any other characters, as an adult with an IQ over 100, I don't watch that stuff. Yellow, silly, Asian, overhyped - that's enough for me.

    Form following function doesn't have to be repulsive. But when your company doesn't have much history of appealing aesthetics, I guess that's just how it goes.

    What's to like about the looks of the LX? What parts of its styling are sound? The G is a 30+ year old design that is in fact form following function. The vast majority of models sold in the history of the platform aren't overloaded US spec posermobiles, but actual utility vehicles.

    And its fat little brother:

    image

    Nope, nothing ugly here. It's overwought and pointless, much like the irresponsible class who buys them.

    And this whole discussion started with one thing before someone became offended and played devils advocate - Toyolex built up a ton of hype for this new GS, and the product is bland looking and will not set the segment on its side. End of story.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Dopey, repulsive?

    C'mon, we all know the only real problem you have with the LF-A is its Asian origins. ;)

    The GX is just a Land Cruiser Prado wearing a tuxedo. Not my cup of tea, but at least it's from this century.

    The Benz G was great, yes, 30-40 years ago, but it deserves an honorable retirement. Today's G class is like Michael Jordan the last year or two of his career. Time to hang up the Air Jordans.

    I haven't seen much GS hype at all, just the normal concept and auto show preview stuff. It's nothing compared to the endless teasers you see nowadays from some European makes. Good example - the new M5. It got 10 times the hype that the GS did.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,494
    Dopey, repulsive. I don't want that face staring back at me every time I go to the garage. Luckily for those who embark on the weird purchase scheme Lexus set up (to develop more hype and an aura of scarcity), they are likely the types who will barely drive it anyway.

    Plenty of Asian cars I do like, although admittedly many of them aren't current models.

    Calling that choice of either developing world middle elitists/corrupt officials/sketchy multinational-NGO employees something like "Prado" is kind of pretentious in itself. I suppose the next Yukon can be called the Mona Lisa :shades:

    In Europe, the G sells to rural dwellers, military buyers and wannabes, local governments, etc, to be used as service vehicles. Big market for it there. It was never meant as a luxury vehicle.

    I think introducing a bland historically also-ran competitor to the middle lux Germans at a major classic car show is pretty much an exercise in hype. New M5 is likely 10x more deserving of the hype, not that I saw any more for it than the GS.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Jeez, are any people with money honest in your eyes? Relax, you sound traumatized or something.

    Live and let be.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I'm still trying to figure out how Toyota's PR machine managed to rock the east coast shortly after the Camry launch with a 5.9 earth quake.

    Stay safe, folks.
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    Some nice interior improvements, but when you dig into the specs it looks like some decontenting as well. For example, power driver's seat becomes an option on the new model LE.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    edited August 2011
    LE price is down by $200, so I guess that's the power driver's seat:

    http://www.autoblog.com/2011/08/23/2012-toyota-camry-first-drive-review/

    Toyota does that a lot. The year after I got my Sienna, the Towing package became an extra-cost option, but they lowered the price (not quite as much as the package cost). I wanted the HD cooling system, so it worked out better for me.

    Embargo is off, here's Autoblog's take, generally positive:

    http://www.autoblog.com/2011/08/23/2012-toyota-camry-first-drive-review/

    Check out the "La Machine" wheels. Reminds me of my 91 Escort GT. :D
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    http://www.insideline.com/toyota/camry/2012/2012-toyota-camry-first-drive.html

    in person the tension in the new creases and squarer edges make the 2012 Toyota Camry look less puffy, more toned and eager

    Down by 120 pounds is a nice reversal in the recent trend towards bloat.

    Manual is gone. Both the people who wanted one are disappointed, I'm sure.

    21/30 is OK, but the Sonata 2.0T hits 33mpg highway. Some don't like turbos, though, so they may not compete directly.

    25/35 mpg is good and matches the DI 2.4l base Sonata highway, the current benchmark.

    +7mpg on the hybrids is a huge improvement, wow...

    That light blue color is awful, though, yuck. Baby Blue?

    None of this will stop certain enthusiasts from scoffing at the 2012 Toyota Camry and its less-than-revolutionary suit of new clothes, but enthusiasts never sat square in Toyota's crosshairs to begin with

    They mean you, fin. :P

    6.1" screen could be bigger. Wonder if that's the Entune screen? They said it was an LE. At least they kept it a touch screen. What's the size of the screens on MyFord Touch?
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,494
    A little close to home or something? Looking at how the socio-economic spectrum is devolving, how we have basically eliminated accountability for those "with money" over the past couple generations, and the amusing corruption or worse it usually takes to climb any ranks in the 2nd or 3rd world, I don't think my rants are without merit.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,494
    Hey, I said it looks better than what it replaces...from me, that's a world of praise :shades:

    I am sure it will sell as well as ever.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Nah, my first "car" was a scooter, bought with my own money. First car was an $800 beater Datsun. Earned every penny I spent on personal transportation.

    I guess that's taught me to appreciate value, bang for the buck, and fuel economy.

    I say let the rich buy their luxo-barges and ridiculous chrome-plated trucks, the economy needs it.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    You sure did. I guess I'm so shocked that I had to read it from you twice to let it sink in.

    Having said that, Toyota seems to have evolved the Camry in exactly the right direction for the typical Camry buyer. They're wise to protect their volume model that way.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,494
    Exactly, so you have no reason to take offense when I disparage those vehicles.

    I dunno how much positive impact those purchases have on the economy relative to what is in so many cases the price paid for the "earning" of such wealth, but I guess that's something for another forum.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,494
    They will sell every unit they make. Also interesting to read there is now a fleet spec "L" model.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    You disparage the buyers, too, people you don't know...

    http://www.autoblog.com/2011/08/23/burning-cars-filling-up-berlin-streets/

    Those crimes have targeted luxury makes like BMW and Mercedes-Benz as part of growing unrest among Germany's lower classes

    You're not in Berlin, are ya? ;)
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    The hybrid prices are down a lot - I think $3400 is the difference between an LE and LE hybrid.

    I think that was strategic - they don't have enough Prius supply now, so why not get people to step up to a TCH? Then they can upsell them with options to an XLE.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,494
    I don't need to know someone personally, where there's smoke there's fire. Sometimes an exception, but not usually. I live in overmonied [non-permissible content removed] central, and see some sketchy crap on a daily basis.

    Europe is going to see a lot worse than that in our lifetimes. That's just Germany getting in touch with its French side.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,494
    As tech gets older, the price can come down. Toyota will profit even more from the early adopter strategy.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Time to break out the calculator. $3400 extra, you go from 28 to 40mpg combined, so +12mpg.

    At 12,000 miles per year, you use 429 gallons or 300 gallons, delta is 129 gallons, at $3.60 current prices you save $464.40 per year.

    $3400 / $464 is about a 7 year break-even period.

    Range is also better, but I hate it when hybrids get a smaller gas tank, so check that first.

    Again, for the target buyer, that's big news. I bet they sell a much higher percentage as hybrids now.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,494
    I don't know how many buy those based on economics rather than other feel-good issues. I won't hold it against them, though :shades:

    When price comes down, more can feel good for cheap...in this economy it won't hurt them. Accord is going to really be outpaced next year.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Call me practical but they should make economic sense as well. Ever watch Living with Ed? Funny show, but he always points out that he never invest in anything that doesn't eventually pay off.

    By definition, if it doesn't, it's not sustainable. *cough* VOLT *cough*

    I did the match with gas at $3.60, but I doubt it will be that cheap over those 7 years. I guess if gas goes up 10% you take 10% less time to recoup the investment.

    I'm not in to sedans, don't like CVTs, so not for me, but Camry-philes will line up in droves.

    Quick, buy Toyota stock.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,494
    If it was about economics, a lot of hybrid cars wouldn't sell, some crazy white elephants such as the LS600h wouldn't even exist. This segment needs some posing ability and/or smugness to gain sales too. There is value to many in a feeling, if not, we would all be driving Accents, Rios, Yaris, Aveos, etc.

    I do think Toyota's recent bad spell will look like just an anomaly in time - if the quality can keep up or some back.
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    I think introducing a bland historically also-ran competitor to the middle lux Germans at a major classic car show is pretty much an exercise in hype.

    Speaking of hype (and this is from somebody who also loves German cars), what's with the stupid LED eye shadow, first all over the newer Audis, and now spreading like cancer to MB and others? It's the opera windows of the 20-teens!
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    Jeez, are any people with money honest in your eyes?

    Maybe only poorer Toyota owners living on the dole?
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,494
    Most car designers and entire styling teams are sycophants. It's pretty simple.

    And sadly, I can guarantee you people see it and love it. It will indeed date the cars.
  • cannon3cannon3 Member Posts: 296
    Not doing so hot across the net in other forums. Styling is bland in comparison with other models in this class. Not a good start for Toyota.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Germans are launching similar cars - S-class, Bimmer 7, and Panamera hybrids. Spend $100k to save $3 a week on gas! Sure, why not?

    Previews are saying Camry interior improved, a wise reversal of recent trends. The new Sienna isn't nearly as nice as my '07. I bet Gary feels the same about the new Sequoia, too.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    LED eye shadow

    Today's tail fins.

    Kias are getting it, too (Sportage).
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,494
    Those cars aren't bought out of rational reasoning - and for the MB anyway, which has actually been around for about 2 years IIRC, it is the low model S class, not the insanely expensive high model like it is for the LS. Some odd model positioning there - and seeing as I have seen exactly one LS600 on the road, probably not a success.

    Regarding the car in the lake - sounds like a driver error issue to me.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    sounds like a driver error issue to me

    For sure, I was sharing because of your comments about who the buyers are nowadays. Not the smartest folks...
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,494
    At least it was a rental...although the demographic who buys that segment isn't usually the most aware, either.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Should have said A8 hybrid:

    http://www.autoblog.com/2011/08/24/audi-spills-the-beans-on-production-37-mpg-a8- -hybrid/

    MPG jumps from 21 to 37 though, wow. Could increase range usefully.
  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    edited August 2011
    The Camry has been America's best selling car for 13 of the past 14 years. While that's a remarkable achievemant, the competition has greatly intensified. Although the Accord has been the perennial runner-up, the Altima has been number 2 so far this year, and the Fusion #3. That's quite a change, and the Malibu, Sonata and Passat are also formidable competitors.

    The all-new '12 Camry's 2.5-liter, four-cylinder engine gets 35 m.p.g. on the highway, up from 32 in the 2011 model. In addition, a 3.5-liter V6 that gets 30 m.p.g. on the highway. The Camry hybrid will get 43 m.p.g. in the city and 39 on the highway, considerably better than the 35 city/31 highway mileage of the 2011 hybrid. It also is peppier, generating about 200 horsepower, up from 187 in the 2011 model. The new hybrid's base price is about $1,150 lower at $26,660. The price of all the Camrys has also been reduced.

    Other improvements to the '12 Camry include more interior room (with virtually the same exterior dimensions, for greater space efficiency), a 150 pound weight reduction, and more upscale interiors.

    Finally, Toyota is focusing on reestablishing its reputation for quality and reliability. With all these changes, the Camry should remain a formidable contender for the top sales position. As we've seen in the past couple of years, though, the competition is also making great strides. How do you think it'll net out for '12 and '13?
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    The A8h will also blow the socks off the GS hybrid at only 23 MPG. Will offerings like that further erode Lexus sales. Audi is having their best year ever in the USA. Hybrids that actually do something mileage wise are needed. The GS and LS hybrids are really just a joke. The CT is better but so small that it will really limit the buyers that will be interested. The only CT owner posting on the EPA site is getting 38 MPG, well below EPA estimate.
  • robr2robr2 Member Posts: 8,805
    6.1" screen could be bigger. Wonder if that's the Entune screen? What's the size of the screens on MyFord Touch?

    The MyFord Touch screen in the Explorer is 8".
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    edited August 2011
    You're comparing new to old. Or hype to old. The Volt was hyped to get 130mpg, remember?

    The upcoming GS hybrid should do much better. The A8 does 37 but remember the new Camry hybrid gets 40mpg, and there's no doubt the GS will get a similar improvement. Also, the A8 uses the 2.0T engine, so it may have leisurely acceleration.

    Not to mention the GS-h could even arrive before the A8 hybrid does (that's due only next year).

    I'm surprised you didn't ask for a diesel instead.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I'm not sure if the article was edited, or what, but they added a couple of paragraphs. There are bigger screens, too, but I think the Camry's is 7", so Ford's still seems to be larger.

    I have a 7" screen on my portable (!) GPS, so 6.1" did seem a bit too small for me to believe.
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