Toyota on the mend?

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Comments

  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I agree and my wife agrees. No Porsche for me...

    I would be happy with the basic 911 Carrera at a measly $79,000. Still gets to 60 in 4.7 seconds and tops out at 180 MPH.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 20,784
    Another way to look at it this:
    Camry -5%
    Altima +24%
    Sonata -3%
    Accord -21%
    Fusion +5%
    Couldn't find the Malibu numbers. but I'm guessing a lot are buying the Cruze instead. It's pretty much a 3/4 length Malibu.
    2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    But remember, the Altima is the new rental car fleet queen and I think we're into the several month period where the rental companies are bringing in the new stock.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 20,784
    The Accord, Altima, and Camry have been around a while in current design, so it's kind of tough if they new or a year or two old.
    2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
    Another product line "sailing in" at Toyota.

    Toyota unveils new model for Japan
  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
    Toyota to halt Camry shipments to U.S.

    Toyota will no longer will ship Japanese-made Camry vehicles to the United States and other parts of North America.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I can't see why it would be kept secret

    I don't think they are - it just takes time to produce videos. I'm sure we'll see it soon, of course I was unplugged all weekend so I may have missed it already.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    You missed the context - xlu was implying the Malibu's sales lead meant the Camry's sales leadership was done - not true.

    All along I said it was the incentives that boosted sales temporarily for the 'bu, and now we all know that was true.

    I was right all along.

    Put enough cash on the hood and look what happens: Gary buys a Toyota. True story.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Altima numbers are amazing even if all of that growth is for fleet sales.

    Ghosn has worked miracles there.

    My fear? Nissan could grow too quickly, like Toyota did. I hope they keep their focus on QC as output rises.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 20,784
    I only takes a minute to upload to youtube from a video camera.
    Maybe Toyota is just too used to hiding things, they can even reveal the good news. ;)
    2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    And only 7:14 to watch the whole thing.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z67KeFZLjX8

    That giant thud you hear is every German engineers' chin hitting the floor.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Here's another vid, sorry 'bout the ad at the start:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jvL4aubO6yY&feature=player_embedded

    It's in German with English subtitles. Criticisms are the price and the fact that only 50 are being made. I don't see how that sort of exclusivity will hurt it in the eyes of those lucky 50 folks.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,494
    They'll just sit in a hermetically sealed vault, most likely.

    Remember, this isn't some all-time record.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    It's a significant achievement, though. To have success in Germany's own back yard...it legitamizes (is that a word?) the LF-A as a super car.

    I love the sounds and that IP...phenomenal!

    I saw Potenza tires, too...
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,494
    Oh, it's a supercar, that hasn't been denied, but some do think intangibles might be lacking, and it's far from a value. And yeah, I saw the USA Top Gear where one was driven...that exhaust note is addictive.

    I don't see the significance of it being at the Ring though. Toyota developed the car there for a decade. Everyone who is anyone tests their suoercar at the ring. It's a standard.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    some do think intangibles might be lacking

    I've seen that first hand in the reaction to this 'ring lap time. Funny - suddenly some think 'ring times are not important.

    Only a matter of months before someone beats it, but it's meaningful to have held the record at all, and not just for electrics.
  • robr2robr2 Member Posts: 8,805
    I don't see the significance of it being at the Ring though. Toyota developed the car there for a decade. Everyone who is anyone tests their suoercar at the ring. It's a standard.

    Aha - Fintail is James May!!
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    edited September 2011
    Captain Slow drives an AMG...funny thought!
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,494
    edited September 2011
    I do think it is an overhyped and pretty irrelevant stat...but it is fun.

    I like May's connection of Ring tuned cars to rough rides, and how the non-Ring borne new McLaren has a smooth ride. That McLaren is pretty cool, too.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Rough ride is fair enough given this is a limited edition designed for just that...

    I wouldn't expect an RS Porsche to coddle my mother-in-law on the way to the opera, either. :D
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,494
    Well, it's not the fastest car ever, just the fastest with a predetermined "production" disclaimer added. I wonder how much cheaper the next car will be...
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,494
    He wasn't complaining about the Toyota per se, but the rides in general, and how a fast car without such specific local development had a better ride.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    The target buyer won't see exclusivity as bad.

    A 911 may be too "common" for them. I remember, when I went to San Diego, thinking that Porsches were like Fords there.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,494
    Target buyer is just going to use it as an ego stroking investment, which is a shame...I hope it ends up like the XJ220 and doesn't appreciate. I'll be surprised to see one on the road.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    XJ220 has that silly bumper-car racing series, remember?

    Plus it disappointed from the starting gate. People expected a V12 and got a turbo V6.

    LF-A seems to be going the opposite so far, i.e. exceeding expectations.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    http://www.autoblog.com/2011/09/07/redesigned-avensis-heads-toyota-lineup-in-fra- nkfurt/

    Translation: that's what the HS face lift will look like here.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,494
    Developed for an entire decade, tuned at god knows what cost, produces nice results - my expectations aren't exceeded, anyway. For the price of the car and the work put into it, it should do virtually everything at the top of its class.

    That Avensis is ugly, big dangling pig snout emblem, faddish LEDs, will keep HS sales low.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 20,784
    edited September 2011
    I was really hoping to see 300kph on that long straight. It was so close.
    I just watched the 2012 ZR1 (7:19) for comparison.
    At around 4:15 they were pretty much tied.
    The LFA had a 3-4 mph advantage on the long straight near the end.
    The Corvette driver using a manual trans, had to work a lot harder.
    2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    god knows what cost

    Actually, I think we can do that math - $400k times 50 is a cool $20 million. :D

    It's not about that, though, it's about bragging rights, marketing, and, hopefully, a trickle-down effect.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    edited September 2011
    Love watching those, so intense in the cockpit. Driver definitely gets kudos for manually shifting. :shades:

    LF-A is high tech, ZR1 is brute force. Both very cool.

    Margin of error even with the same driver is about ~2 seconds on any given lap, so it may be even closer than it seems.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,494
    Bragging rights in one stat of debatable merit though, but for something so limited in production and at such a huge price (and certainly still losing money hand over fist), it will only be seen as so much. Have similar stats for the CTS-V really boosted any image?

    I don't know if Toyota will dare to put off their isotank zombie Lexus clientele by making a vehicle that actually responds to driving. We will see. Can't really be more that way than they are now, anything has to be an improvement.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Sad that the most undeserving get the nicest cars just because of what great-grandpop accomplished decades ago and that they were born with the right last name.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,494
    No, it's all hard work and merit, I swear, wink, nod :shades:

    For a lot of the cars I like, I can wait for them to depreciate to a reasonable level. Let the guillotine class eat the initial costs. Otherwise, if I had 400K to blow on cars, no Toyota would be at the top of my list.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Have similar stats for the CTS-V really boosted any image?

    CTS sales have certainly improved:

    Year-to-date retail sales of the CTS family increased 39 percent compared to last year


    http://media.cadillac.com/content/media/us/en/cadillac/news.detail.html/content/- Pages/news/us/en/2011/Sep/cadsales

    It's a start...the halo doesn't hurt. They follow up with promoted events, to reinforce it.

    Lexus should host more of those Taste of Lexus events and focus less on the food this time, more on the cars.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,494
    But now there are two models, before only one. The model has been around for model years now. I don't know if the V halo really applies to other Caddies either - but of course, the LF-A probably won't matter to the average boring ES and LS buyer either.

    When the cars are more exciting than some cheese and wine, maybe they can do that :shades:
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Benz and BMW events had great catering, too. The Chevy Malibu event had what looked like dog food (I passed). :D

    Bad news for you, the end is nigh:

    http://www.autoblog.com/2011/09/08/daimler-chairman-dieter-zetsche-to-keynote-ce- s-2012/

    So, Lexus is hammering it hard at the 'ring, while Daimler's CEO is the keynote at ... a consumer electronics show?

    Didn't it used to be the other way around? :P
  • robr2robr2 Member Posts: 8,805
    edited September 2011
    Per that article, Allan Mulally and Rupert Stadler have done the keynote at CES.

    The CES organizers are trying to bring in more automotive companies to display at the show. Technically navs, backup cameras, telematics are all "consumer electronics". Remember, the goal of trade show organizers is to bring in companies to display.

    I remember a few years ago Ford displayed at the Kitchen and Bath Industry Show. They had a Windstar with all sorts of neat family on the move gadgets.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,494
    edited September 2011
    Did the Germans give the food higher billing than the cars? :P

    MB wants to be seen as more performance oriented and high tech (look at all of the recent ads about MB gadgets that save errant drivers from their own downfall), CES kind of makes sense.

    I sincerely doubt the Toyota CEO has spent any time at the Ring, especially while examining 98% of its products from the past 20 years...while the DB CEO is from the land where the Ring is just a road...all the while we get the most overhyped car of the year in the new GS...
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Mulally is no surprise given Sync and MyFord/MyLincoln Touch.

    Audi has been pushing tech lately, too. I like the touch pad that accepts hand writing.

    Still, I mentioned that because it seemed like role reversal. Lexus was known for tech, Germans for autobahn.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    They've all been cutting costs. Market sucks, events suck.

    BMW's last 2 events were at a local dealership, really just an invitation to test drive. At least they had a Benz to compare.

    A couple of years ago BMW did an short auto cross course in Baltimore, that was fun. Before that the X3 event had a really good autocross course at FedEx Field's parking lot. BTW I won the "Best Performance" cone they hand out, and my X3 even lacked the Sport package. :shades:

    Been a while since the last Benz event, I think the previous ML intro, and that was quite the production. Also at FedEx Field.

    Taste of Lexus was there as well, also a bunch of autocross courses. Surprisingly, Lexus had the best variety of competitors' cars by far. I drove Cadillacs, Bimmers, and Benzes. They weren't afraid to compare side-by-side.

    So definitely not focusing on food, though I'd say all of those had really good catering. Volvo even had child care (a nod to their focus on child safety, perhaps?).

    When the market is at 17 million, they really rolled out the red carpet. Now it's just an invite to visit a dealer, with free cold cut sammiches. Boo. :lemon:
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    edited September 2011
    Hey hosts, why not do another Edmunds Live?

    Last one was in 2000, IIRC. That was fun. Better to have a neutral host so we know the cars aren't rigged.

    Volvo was the most guilty, they compared the S60 to the BMW 330i on price, but then on the track they compared a 325i. :surprise:

    Even BMW cheats - they compared the X3 to the RX, but the RX had severely bald tires.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,494
    Lexus autocross? Let me guess, IS-F vs C300 non-sport with pano roof (for added weight) and a non-sport 328i automatic with pleather. Or an LS600h vs a 1993 300SE and a 1994 750 with engine computer problems :shades:

    The bald tires thing is funny...shouldn't they all be comparing new cars? I'd assume bald tires means a rig with 20K+ miles on it, or they switched wheels from an old car onto a new one, which would really be sketchy.

    I wonder if these events actually pay for themselves in sales. Maybe just an efficiency requirement in this new economy.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Not at all what you'd expect. I drove a GS hybrid, an SC convertible (compared it to a Caddy XLR). Lexus GX and LX on an off road course.

    You would have been shocked - it was really quite a driving event.

    Tires - the events are typically sponsored by a Tire company, which puts their tires on the host car, and new ones at that. Of course they rotated fresh performance tires on the Bimmer, while the Lexus had worn out all seasons.

    I sat in an IS-F but it was not available to drive. To be fair, M- and AMG cars are the same way, some times they do let you go as a passenger.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,494
    Must have been some special tires to make those sleds handle tolerably. How many miles were on those cars?
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,938
    I was always suspicious a few years back when GM dealers were touting you could look and compare the Honda's or Toyota's side by side and drive them both at the dealer that the Japanese cars would be vandalized in some way to make the GM's look good.
    '18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Just bang things around a bit inside, stretch the panel gaps, things will rattle. Bald tires will lower performance. Maybe bad gas in those, racing fuel in your car.

    Lots of ways to cheat. BMW wasn't even subtle about it.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    http://www.autoblog.com/2011/09/08/why-doesnt-europe-care-about-infotainment/

    Looks like Audi and Benz didn't even show up, so the CES appearance appears to be a MB-USA phenomenon.
  • robr2robr2 Member Posts: 8,805
    Keep in mind that these road shows sponsored by the manufacturers are usually run by an outside consulting group.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Yeah, I always chat with the pro drivers. Inevitably they work for AMCI or someone like that, and usually race in one or more series.

    Fun story - at one event Subaru had hired British instructors, and they seemed really nervous.

    When I asked why, they said it was because we were located at a revolutionary war battlefield in PA. They said they hadn't fared so well at that site last time. LOL
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