Toyota on the mend?

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  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    edited September 2011
    The cars with launch control performed well, basically. I saw the video, it's all good fun but doesn't mean much in the big picture.

    That GT-R is a giant killer, though, eh? Amazing.

    Audi also has good launch control software. Even the top TT is an over-achiever.

    I'll take the Ferrari for the mere fact that it makes you salivate when you see the engine is visible.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,501
    Bahaha, I will believe that Supra when I see it. FT still doesn't exist and the LF-A took a mere decade to get on the road. Rumors rumors. That concept in the link proves that origami is indeed Japanese, too.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    The production FT won't look anything like that.

    I wonder if they'll take an STI and remove the front half shafts, to build a RWD Supra from that platform.

    Not the current STI, though, the next one. Looks like Subaru will put the WRX on a different platform than the Impreza.

    Good idea - tough to build your fuel sipper and flagship performance model based on the same car!
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,501
    Right now, the FT looks like an invisible car. Toyota is great at building hype, anyway.

    I always thought that was a cool part of the WRX idea is that it was a performance car similar to the lower line - a little bit sleeper there, but that limits it, too.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    For once we agree, the hype is so overdone the car itself cannot possibly live up to it.

    Still, ignore the hype, and look forward to a fun car. The engine is set so low and so far back that handling characteristics should have a ton of potential. The block sits behind the front axle and scrapes the ground, basically, so COG should be perfect.

    I *LOVED* the Impreza concept, drove up to Philly just to see it in person, so the production Impreza was sort of disappointing. On its own it's OK, but I was hoping for so much more.

    Now I hear the WRX may look more like that concept did. *salivates*

    Toyota may get a soul after all, even if they did have to get it by acquiring part of Subaru. ;)
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,501
    I don't look forward to things until I know there is a reasonable chance they will exist and will be as promised. I don't yet get that vibe from the FT. So far, vaporware. Could end up being another Scion tC for all we know.

    I don't see myself as a Subaru customer just yet...old co-worker bought a new "premium" Impreza in 09, car left me feeling cold - coarse engine, iffy interior materials, middling mileage, but my ride might spoil me :shades:
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Really? For me it's more a matter of when, not if.

    And yes, I know people are tired of waiting, maybe I'm patient because I'm not car shopping right now.

    The '12 Impreza fixes the mileage and the interior. 27/36 mpg now, amazing considering it's AWD. The interior got more upgrades than the Camry did. I doubt they'll address the NVH issue given the price, but it should be OK for its class, and besides, a little boxer growl is a part of its character.

    The Scion will take more risks as far as styling goes. Subaru hasn't shown theirs yet but it ought to be the conservative one.

    I have a Chase Subaru credit card and some $500 to $1000 or so in Subaru Bucks in a drawer some where. Let's see how they price both versions. I'm a bit torn because AWD is Subaru's DNA, so the old school die-hard WRC fan in me feels it's a bit of a sell-out, a compromise to make partner Toyota happy.

    The other part of me says it's lighter, RWD (not FWD), cheaper, quicker...what's not to like?
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,501
    I don't believe propaganda made by overpaid suits until I see evidence...been let down too many times.

    That mileage is impressive, probably the biggest problem with the Impreza. Another co-worker has something like an 03, tells me he is lucky to break like 23 on the highway (auto) - makes me laugh. The engine noise would bug me though, it sounds unrefined, like a poorly maintained lawn implement, and few cars sound worse than an aging Subie - up there with a GM 2.8/3.1 to me. There should be some way to encapsulate or do exhaust tuning to muffle the roar.

    Yeah, there needs to be AWD. Beware of the beige, it's still alive and thriving.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    23? We beat that in mixed city driving, 24-26 or so in a larger Forester. Something's wrong...highway we see 27-30.

    Turbos actually sound milder.

    You think Subaru will get beige disease? Is it contagious? :D
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,501
    That's what he claims, but it is an older car, and highway driving in this region seldom means cruising at 60. The guy with the 09 also says he rarely hits 30, and it is a manual. AWD is a mpg killer.

    I loathe the blow-off noise some idiots love to have their WRXs exclaim.

    I think Toyota has made beige into such a pervasive art form that it is like a virus, a plague.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    AWD is a mpg killer

    I'll pay that price to have the piece of mind that comes with knowing I can get around when I need to, all seasons. I need at least one AWD vehicle in my fleet.

    Subaru's is truly full-time, it doesn't disengage the rear axle like many pretenders' systems. And yes, that includes Toyota's.

    4Matic is pretty sweet, too. I remember taking a E350 4Matic on a soapy/wet tarp, then a diesel RWDer. No comparison. The diesel lagged a bit, then gave TOO much torque, and slip-slided away with no direction stability whatsoever.

    The 4Matic gave less than half the wheelspin and tracked straight. Night and day.

    No snow traction issues with your AMG? Do you have a 2nd set of snow tires? Or a winter beater perhaps?

    At least the AMG gas engine has more linear power delivery than the diesel. Does it have summer tires? My Miata doesn't even leave the driveway when there is snow. RWD + Summer Tires = ice skating.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,501
    A diesel 4Matic would be good, but we don't get it...I am pretty sure it exists for ROW though.

    No summer tires here, as we don't have a traditional summer to begin with. Everyone uses some kind of all season tire. The car doesn't do too poorly in the snow (which we also don't see often) - never crashed it or anything and have only got stuck once, from which I extricated it myself, but I generally use a good snowfall as an excuse to not drive.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,501
    Ah, the overmonied via questionable endeavors class and their toys.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Should be fine, then. I'm sure the linear non-forced induction engine and weight aids traction to those reasonably-good-in-snow tires.

    STI comes with summer tires standard, so the funny thing is a winter set is basically mandatory if you're in the snow belt.

    My Miata's got 'em, but if there's even a chance of snow I'll take the Subaru.

    The Sienna is barely adequate - looong wheelbase FWD struggles up steep hills as the weight shifts to the rear axle. Good thing there is an off switch to the VSC.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,501
    Changing tires would be a pain for me, we don't get classic winter or summer weather, just months of drizzly rain. All seasons of some sort work for 90% of drivers - they all crash in the snow no matter what they drive anyway.

    When I have had difficulty in snow, I just turn off the traction control and floor it, try to burn my way down to pavement :shades:
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    So Global Warming is basically your fault? :D

    I haven't even tried the Miata in snow. You LOOK at the throttle and the rear tires spin.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,501
    My fintail cancels out dozens of hybrids...it too isn't bad in the snow, but the tires are getting old now and I probably wouldn't chance it. For the modern car, maybe weight helps...I drove around during our big storm in 08, had almost no problems...just paid attention, and when needed, floored it. Saw lots of cars, less powerful and lighter, not faring so well - but the driver makes the difference.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Plus, RWD hurts getting started, but I bet you can climb a steep driveway better than my minivan can, with the rearward weight shift.

    Around here it's RIDICULOUS. We get a light dusting and people are abandoning their cars on the side of the road. They now put barrels of sand at the bottom of hills, so fewer people get stuck.

    Driver's Ed should spend less time on parallel parking and more time on car control.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,501
    I can climb hills fine, although it helps to have a head start. I remember a woman in a MDX braking and coming to a random stop on a snowy hill with nobody in front of her...made me wish I had a missile launcher to remove her from the motoring public, but luckily I was able to go around.

    Here, there's a dusting, and people abandon cars, and ditch SUVs as they don't understand ideas like traction and physics. I won't disagree about drivers ed, it is a joke...I don't recall being taught even which direction to steer when in a skid.

    To be on topic, surprised the AWD Camry hasn't made a comeback. But I guess that's what a Venza is, these days :sick:
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    edited September 2011
    I wonder if they will even replace the Venza. Never made sense to me - they have the RAV4 and Highlander already, and they are crossovers. What is the Venza? A crossover light?

    What they should do is come out with a crossover smaller than the RAV4. The US-spec RAV4 has a longer wheelbase than the european one, so there's room beneath it for something smaller.

    If the Rogue and Juke are selling, imagine what a more attractive small crossover from Toyota could do. The RAV4 could move upscale in price and interior materials, and the new smaller ute would fill the gap it left behind.
  • robr2robr2 Member Posts: 8,805
    Based on recent advertising, it looks like the Venza is targeted at active aging boomers who want a car that can get them to the fire trails and out to an elegant dinner without looking like the Highlander or Sienna they've been driving for the past 20 years.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_FbfBkR8Cyg&feature=related

    I see them regularly.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I much prefer the JDM model, called the Mark X Zio.

    The US-spec one got a tacky chrome grille and ditched the 3rd row that is offered in Japan. They tried to make it urban IMHO. It comes off as a cheaper RX rather than a roomy and practical 3-row wagon.

    I see a bunch also, but neither Venza nor the Accord Crosstour have enjoyed success the way the Outback has.

    Honda's adding a 4 banger model, but I bet it won't help.

    New Camry should sprout a new Venza, so I wonder if they'll market the next one like they do in Japan, or stick with the current strategy.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    After this last road trip I realized I don't want a smaller SUV than the Sequoia. It would have to at least double my 18 MPG average on this trip to tempt me. Then only down to the ML or Touareg size. Sitting next to a RAV4 it looked miniscule. I'm not even sure giving up the room, comfort and safety of the Sequoia would be worth double the mileage.
  • robr2robr2 Member Posts: 8,805
    juice - you need to look beyond what you'd like to have. Since they seem to be targeting aging active boomers, why offer a third row? Those people are looking for ways to haul their toys - not 3 rows of kids. It is designed as an urban vehicle that can get people to where they want to play. I'd have to say it really is a lower end RX.

    As for comparing it to an Outback, I would have to say that they don't target the same demographic. The Outback has a much broader - and younger - appeal and IMHO doesn't meet the elegant out to dinner car requirement that the Venza does.

    I couldn't find model sales for Toyota but wiki shows the Venza having sold over 54K units in 2009. Not 200K Camry numbers but not to shabby.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Ever driven around much in a New Beetle? They look tiny on the outside but have a surprising amount of room on the inside.

    Toyota stock is around a 52 week low. May be time to pick up some. :shades:
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    edited September 2011
    No need to convince me - I thoroughly enjoy all the space our Sienna has to offer. We drove all up and down the east coast with up to 8 people in there this summer.

    Even when it's not full it's a great highway cruiser - very long wheelbase, tracks straight, comfy, quiet (for movies in back), all seats recline, big gas tank for 500 mile range.

    I'm not ready to downsize yet. Maybe when the kids are off to college.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    The Venza sold 26,386 through August. That is 20% less than last year. I would say it is not a big seller. Though I did go look at it. It kind of caught my attention. Sitting in it killed my curiosity. Then so does the RAV4 and Highlander. The RAV4 is also off 21% over last year.

    http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/toyota-reports-august-2011-sales-1288937- 68.html
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    edited September 2011
    you need to look beyond what you'd like to have

    So true, I have trouble with that, don't I? :D

    I guess my pet peeve is when they "Americanize" a model from overseas and it loses something in translation.

    A lot of european Fords and Vauxhalls don't handle as well as their clones across the Atlantic. Mondeo and Saturn L-series (Vectra) come to mind.

    The Mazda5 lost AWD, power sliding doors, and the middle bench.

    EVO loses the sedan's rear wiper.

    Venza loses the 3rd row and the non-alien styling.

    For me the Legacy spawns the Outback, the Camry spawns the Venza, and the Accord spawns the Crosstour. The latter two and bigger and heavier outside but there's no payoff inside. The Outback has more than a FOOT extra cargo between the wheel wells compared to the Crosstour. Venza could have been more practical but they deleted an existing feature from the JDM model.

    I guess the Venza still did decent volume, as it beat the Crosstour handily.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Keep in mind incentive spending was way down, in order to keep supply in check.

    Supposedly incentives are back, just saw an ad for the Camry with 0% plus $500 off, but it is at the end of its life cycle.

    RAV4 is ancient, no? Overdue for replacement. Hope they fix the wrong-way rear gate.
  • robr2robr2 Member Posts: 8,805
    Numbers are down on the Venza but they are down on Toyota as a whole.

    I still say the Venza marketed as a two row crossover targeted at active boomers makes sense.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Guess so, their marketing surely has a lot more info than we do.

    There are some upgrades compared to the Highlander - some extra padded surfaces and such.

    I don't get the RX, either, but it sure does sell well, so maybe the Venza is the vehicle they buy one step before an RX.
  • robr2robr2 Member Posts: 8,805
    The Outback has more than a FOOT extra cargo between the wheel wells compared to the Crosstour.

    But do Crosstour buyers care?? I'd have to say that all 7 of them didn't.

    Venza could have been more practical but they deleted an existing feature from the JDM model.

    Does the target market want that feature or would they be turned off by a "people mover?" Right now in my lifestyle a 7 seat Venza would be great as I haul around Scouts and lacrosse players. But when they're gone I may not want the stigma of the practicality of 7 seats. I want room for me and my wife and my stylish friends so we can got out to a fancy restarurant in a "date" car. It's an image thing.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    It's hard to say. If it has a 3rd row, it may indeed cannibalize a few more Highlander sales. Even the RAV4 has a 3rd row. I think Toyota has 386 options for a 3rd row, maybe they didn't want to offer a 387th and have more overlap.

    3rd rows fold away, though, noone needs to know. ;)
  • robr2robr2 Member Posts: 8,805
    Even the RAV4 has a 3rd row.

    True but it's a real unicorn. I've only seen one and it was a the Boston auto show. Even the "expert" there didn't know it had one.

    3rd rows fold away, though, noone needs to know.

    Your rational thoughts are trumped by my need for image. :)
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    When I had the spare tire holder recall performed on my Sienna, I went in to the dealership and the RAV4 in the showroom had the 3rd row.

    It's tiny, as you'd expect, but world's better than the one in the Outlander, for instance.

    I'd say that's OK for car pools with Elementary School kids, but that's about it.

    Your rational thoughts are trumped by my need for image

    Well, I'd take a Venza over a Crosstour, or X6, or ZDX. Perhaps it's the least unattractive in that oddball image chasing class.
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,938
    big gas tank for 500 mile range.

    I really really wouldn't want to drive much more than 300 miles without a chance to stretch my legs anyway. That being said, if you only have to waste time filling up every other time you stop to stretch you legs, that would be an advantage.
    '18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • hoosiergrandadhoosiergrandad Member Posts: 96
    One of the 7 Crosstour owners........Nothing's been said about driveability. I'd rather wheel a Crosstour than a Venza and I have driven both. Go with the Venza if you need more room; I didn't. I consider the CT to be a large hatchback sedan that copes pretty well with snow, not a CUV, and not for everyone(obviously).
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Exactly, you'd only need gas every other stop.

    We travel with a dog and gas stations are often a terrible place to walk them, with all the fluid spills.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Haven't driven either, but that wouldn't surprise me. Toyota slapped on heavy bling wheels, I think you can get 20"s on that thing, ridiculous.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    http://www.autoblog.com/2011/09/22/lexus-ls-tmg-edition-running-the-ring/

    This is exactly what I was hoping for - lessons learned tuning the IS-F and the LF-A trickle down in to other products.

    The fender flares look silly but I like the sound of that V8.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited September 2011
    We travel with a dog and gas stations are often a terrible place to walk them, with all the fluid spills.

    Yeah, and the spilled oil and gas on the ground isn't the greatest either. ;)

    Not sure if this is going to help Toyota's reputation any:

    Toyota, AARP Unite to Help Aging Toyota Drivers (Straightline)

    Wonder what Betty White drives?

    image
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    So have the Japanese decided to let the Germans design them a decent sedan? :shades:
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    It worked for the Koreans (Schreyer). :D
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Almost 90 and still driving her Caddies. No stinking Camry for her.

    Most importantly, she loves cars, and I wouldn’t be writing about her if she wasn’t a fellow Cadillac enthusiast. Betty White’s favorite luxury car is the Cadillac Seville. And like her comedy, fans of the Seville span generations. I’ve owned three, a ’92, a ’98, and my current 2001. She’s owned a 1977 pictured below and currently stored in a museum, and a silver 98+ Seville that she currently drives.

    http://jesda.com/2011/02/09/betty-white-national-treasure-cadillac-enthusiast/
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    lol, better not tell Lemko. He'll hound her to adopt him. :D
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Pay her enough and I bet she'd peddle Jukes.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    I saw Betty White's pale green Seville at the AACA Museum in Hershey last year.
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