Toyota on the mend?



  • robr2robr2 BostonMember Posts: 8,805
    All that measures is "buzz" from the past two weeks. It doesn't discern good or bad buzz - just buzz.

    3 years ago BP probably had lots of "buzz".
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    No such thing as bad publicity? I dunno.

    Look at sales, sure hasn't hurt 'em.
  • scwmcanscwmcan Niagara, CanadaMember Posts: 399
    But they only produce the parts to toyota's specs, if they didn't meet Toyotas quality standars they they wouldn't use them, you can try to spin it all you want but ultimate responsibility still falls on Toyota just like it does with any other manufacturer ( and always seems to be the case with others, it seems that it is only when it is Toyota that the suppliers are blamed)
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Crossroads of America I70 & I75 Member Posts: 26,684
    edited January 2013
    From the linked article: "fourth time since 2010 that Toyota has paid the maximum allowable fine for delaying recalls."

    >I see a pattern here.

    There is indeed a pattern of delay.

    The sourcing of the parts is also toyota's responsibility especially now that they're #1 again in sales. HP gets the responsibiity for the computer I have sitting that slowly flaked out--I finally determined it is the motherboard with a specific capacitor size on it that deteriorated and those need to be replaced.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    edited January 2013
    CTS' pedals were sealed. You can't inspect for tin whiskers if the part is sealed up. You have to trust the supplier.

    The Dana frames weren't rusty when delivered. That took years. They paid Toyota millions because the frames did not meet specs.

    This 3rd one was a supplier to a supplier, TRW probably should have done the testing if anything.

    Remember, there was huge pressure to switch to domestic suppliers. Apparently that comes at a cost.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    edited January 2013
    How does their response to recalls compare to other similarly sized automakers?

    Ford's still done little about SUA despite having twice as many complaints at Toyota did way back in November 2009, before the media hype.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited January 2013
    We have a new theory for SUA over in A Mechanic's Life - Tales From Under the Hood btw. Automatic door openers.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Weird. No Toyota mentioned, but I'm sure people will look hard and find one. ;)
  • scwmcanscwmcan Niagara, CanadaMember Posts: 399
    Sorry Toyota still bears the responsibility to ensure the parts are to spec, most manufactures of other goods ( don't know about other auto manufactures either btw not singling out Toyota for this as I don't know if the others do it either) do an inspection on a random number of parts, they obviously can't inspect them all, but a sample of every batch is the least they can do. Is the support at fault yes, if they supplied parts that did not meet the manufactures specs, but it is still up to the manufacturer to ensure the parts supplied meet their specs, therefore the fault is still ultimately Toyota's. It is interesting that until these problems became better known from Toyota that I don't think I every heard another manufacture using the supplier as an excuse, it has happened since, but I don't recall hearing it before ( please note doesn't mean I am right, but I just don't recall). It is also funny how when it is a GM problem it is GMs fault but when it is Toyota it is the supplier. bTW I own a Toyota and think they are good cars, it is the trying to shift the blame for problems away from Toyota that I have a problem with, they have t accept the fact that there are problems, and they can't just hide them away like they used to do ( and yes there are problems on toyotas without US content, it is not just the US suppliers that are at fault, BTW where was is the pedal assembly in the Lexus cars that had "UIA" manufactured? Since Lexi are primarily manufactured in Japan I would think they don't have a CTS pedal assembly.
  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
    edited February 2013
    It is also funny how when it is a GM problem it is GMs fault but when it is Toyota it is the supplier.

    This is kind of a broad generalization here and I don't think it's true for many here. For instance, let's look at some of the GM recalls that have happened recently.


    4 - 01 - 2013

    Government Motors Co is recalling more than 69,000 full-size trucks and vans globally that could roll away after being parked due to a potential steering column defect, the automaker said on Friday.The vehicles may have been built with a fractured park lock cable or a malformed steering column lock actuator gear, and could roll away after the driver has exited the vehicle, according to documents filed with the U.S. National Highway Traffic Safety Administration.

    "Doomsday" 2012

    Government Motors has announced a recall of 118,800 Chevrolet Colorado and GMC Canyon pickup trucks due to the possibility of secondary hood latches not being installed at the time of manufacture. The affected vehicles are from the 2010, 2011 and 2012 model years, all of which were built between November 9, 2009 and August 28, 2012.

    22 - 06 - 2012

    A risk of engine fires is forcing Government Motors (GM) to recall its Chevrolet Cruze compact car. The recall covers the 2011 and 2012 model years and affects more than 475,000 cars, which have ranked among the top-selling U.S. compacts over the past two years.

    The fires can ignite when fluids, mainly oil spilled when it is being changed, drip onto a hot plastic shield below the engine, the company said Friday. GM knows of 30 fires caused by the problem. Flames engulfed and destroyed cars in two cases reported to the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration.

    30 - 12 - 2011

    Government Motors Co is recalling 4,873 of its current year Chevy Sonic subcompact cars in the United States and Canada for possible missing front brake pads, the company and federal safety regulators said on Friday.

    23 - 12 - 2011

    Owners of 2010 and 2011 model year Cadillac SRX vehicles, lend me your ears: Your luxury crossover may be facing a recall. According to the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, some 8,789 affected units could have an improperly fitted transmission shift cable.

    Look at the recalls for Toyota, mainly the headlines from the UA "witchhunt" (which never seemed to be linked to Ford who had more cases :confuse: but I digress...) they are for parts which are faulty, from window switches (everyone had that recall it seems) to steering pumps, to Frames and the aforementioned gas pedals.

    Now, I agree that it is Toyotas responsiblity when a part fails that is made to Toyota specs, but hell, any automaker should be responsible! But that's the thing about recalls, a part failure isn't discovered until it has been out in the field for a while. And I think most of the posters here are pretty forgiving for that. But as I noted above, the recalls at GM are not supplier related at all, which is why people are quick to point them out.

    It's just shoddy workmanship.

  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I don't recall hearing it before ( please note doesn't mean I am right, but I just don't recall)

    Back in the late 90s, all the Mazda 626 folks would complain about was the Ford CD4E transmission, sourced from the Contour.

    Some of them didn't break. They ALL broke. Some twice (every 40-60k miles). It was a matter of time.

    The recalled pedal assemblies were sourced from CTS. I'm sure they shipped them to Japan. I doubt the ES is all that different, at least that's what people keep saying.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    when it is a GM problem it is GMs fault

    I don't feel that way, check the GM thread and you'll often find me defending them.

    The statement above probably came when the Sonic was recalled for missing brake pads. The assemblies came from Korea, so .... should we blame the Korean supplier, then?

    What's different in that case is that the brake assembly was installed in those Sonics yet the cars still passed inspection.


    Hello? McFly?

    What kind of inspection allows a car to pass without brake pads?

    Quality Control check in aisle 1!

    That's quite a bit different than a CTS pedal assembly so well sealed up that NASA said it had to be careful cutting it open so as not to contaminate the inside.
  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
    January sales: Detroit Three, Toyota post big gains

    - Ford - Up 23 percent to 162,310
    - Toyota (Includes Scion) – Up 21 percent to 141,514
    - Chevrolet - Up 10.9 percent to 137,304
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Nice to see the industry bouncing back.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    edited February 2013
    There is indeed a pattern of delay

    Let's see how GM did with a Toyota clone, then: - toyota-recall/

    GM doesn't yet know how many 2009 and 2010 model Vibes are included in the recall

    So no Toyota badge, no idea that they were affected.

    If Toyota was so slow, why didn't Pontiac catch the supposed defect sooner?

    Remember, you can't blame NUMMI or the supplier, Pontiac is supposed to do their own quality control, they have to catch this stuff.

    Yet...nothing. Wait for Toyota to tell them what to do.
  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
    Agreed. Looks like only Lincoln and Jeep are the ones in the negative for the month... (So far)
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Jeep probably had a good month a year ago.

    Lincoln? Zzzzzz...
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Crossroads of America I70 & I75 Member Posts: 26,684
    >Pontiac is supposed to do their own quality control,

    Pontiac doesn't exist. ;)

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    And now we know why. LOL
  • scwmcanscwmcan Niagara, CanadaMember Posts: 399
    I am sure I can find just as many assembly fault problems for Toyota, it does happen after all, but I agree that the brake pad one, the hood latch ans the transmission cable look to be poor quality control. But the first one could easily be a supplier issue, and the fire issue was from spilled fluids ( and a poor design of the splash guard, that part is GM's fault) and not an assembly issue, remaber Honda CRVs were catching on fire just after an oil change not that long ago due to a trickier than usual location of the oil filter, it says more about the people doing the oil changes than a real problem with the car.
    But back on track here, nowhere is the supplier blamed for the recalls above, where it seems ( no not always, but fairly frequently) that with Toyota recalls the supplier is more frequently blamed for the issue. I agree that the splier may be cutting corners that they shouldn't be ( after all, all the automakers, and yes this includes Toyota, are pushing for lower costs from their suppliers, not saying it is right to cut corners at all BTW just why they might try to do it, at the same time I am also sure that Toyota ( and all other manufactures now that information on faulty parts and indeed whole cars is so easy to find) spec as high a quality part as they can, while making the car affordable, and safe, sometimes it just doesn't work out.
    I am also not saying that the part supplier should not be named and blamed, just that it does not absolve the car manufacturer from blame as seemed to be implied by the original poster, if that was not their intention than I regret even replying, but it seemed very clear to me that was what was happening.
  • scwmcanscwmcan Niagara, CanadaMember Posts: 399
    Thanks for that I had indeed forgotten about the ford parts in the Mazda, but that wasn't a recall though was it? ( it probably should have been though, along with the chrysler autos of that timeframe too).
    Perhaps you should look at the forum about the First gen Toyota Matrix Manualtransmission that continue to explode ( generally at less than 60,000 miles ) and need to be replaced at the owners expense, it can happen to any manufacturer.

    Funny I seem to recall people saying that the ES used a Japanses sourced pedal assembly at the time of the incidents, and that people were wondering if they could get them for their Camry. It doesn't matter though, I agree that the supplier has some blame, just not that it absolves Toyota of all responsibility like you implied with your original comment on the airbag module recall.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I was active in the CR-V vs Forester thread at the time so I'm very familiar with that case.

    That was all Honda - the conclusion was the mating surface had some sticky residual there, so the old filter would spin off but the rubber gasket would stay.

    To be fair, there were printed instructions on the new filter that specifically said to wipe the surface thoroughly, so that should have caught any left over gaskets, but....

    The filter itself was on the side of the block and just above the hot exhaust headers. Difficult access plus heat source right there = poor design.

    We had a long discussion about fault tolerance (proximity of Toyota pedals to the carpet was also questioned), but at the end of the day I concluded that Lee Iacocca snuck on to the assembly line with a bottle of super glue. :D
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    No recall, a recall would have been GREAT!

    Our advice was to trade the cars before it happened again, seriously.

    NASA concluded in that long PDF report that the pedals could not cause SUA, BTW, just minor rpm fluctuation.
  • scwmcanscwmcan Niagara, CanadaMember Posts: 399
    I am sure that the unintended acceleratin cases were the same as Audis for the most part, there may be one or two freak cases but nothing rampent ( I even bought a Toyota from that period last summer with no worries about the issue). I am certainly not trying to drag it up again, as a matter of fact you were the one to mention the pedals. In any case I am a believer in pedal misapplication for the most part, for the brakes to fail as well as not being able to put the car into neutral is indeed a little unlikely, as I said it may occur somehow in a freak case, but not in all of the reported cases, I am sure it was a case of the media scaremongering again, and the government jumping on the bandwagon to make it look like it was doing something.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited February 2013
    NASA didn't have Richard Feynman filing a minority report either. :shades:

    Coming soon to a screen near you.
  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
    edited February 2013
    2014 Corolla Leaked

    As usual, the typical anti-import crowd is at it again with the usual insults of "Bland" "appliance" "boring" "dull" yadda, yadda, yadda, but the thing could look like a "insert some sort of exciting Gov. Motors car" and sport 400hp with RWD and they would still say that... :D

    But looking closer at the concept, it appears as tho what is leaked are pics of a very low end, budget model, even sporting hubcaps and flat black plastic trim. Somebody found a pic of an Australian model and I think it actually looks pretty good fro the segment.

    Sorry, pic to big to hot link
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Wow, they toned down the Furia concept a lot. Must also be the color.

    That profile looks really good, I like that C-pillar. Front is more Camry than Avalon, a good thing. Rear three-quarters is its best angle.

    That's gonna be a hit if they use the right drivetrain.

    Is that an Australian model, or a photochop? Doesn't look real to me.

    I bet the white car is accurate.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 55,786
    edited February 2013
    So now we get the pointy saggy nose to replace the dangling dongle emblem. I christen thee "anteater" (or maybe aardvark). What does that white car have, 12 parking sensors?

    I prefer the second car, that kinked c-pillar is trying too hard, ala Lexus.
  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
    edited February 2013
    I'm pretty sure it is Australian, but I've seen similar photos from a sight claiming to be from india.

    Here's a better shot in the wild (this one is a wagon too, future Matrix?)

  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I think that's the Corolla Note, at least in some markets.

    Would be good to replace the Matrix with that.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587

    That chrome grille is just awful.

    The black one with the body color grille is 100% better.

    Interior is MUCH improved. The old one had all that cheap light gray plastic. I think they benchmarked Ford, that's what it looks like now (inside).

    No powertrain changes = no significant gains in sales.
  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
    edited February 2013
    WTH??? Seriously?

    I agree man, that grill is just terrible! :sick: but it sounds like it will be optional...
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I hate chrome, and pickups are the biggest offenders, but that one takes the crown.
  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
    edited February 2013
    Same here.

    What disappoints me the most is there are no powertrain changes at all. It just seems like Toyota put 100% effort into the interior, which is nice and all but...

  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 55,786
    Even kind of a Ford-y steering wheel.

    That chrome grille surround is nothing short of atrocious.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Kinda looks like the Prius steering wheel. Not sure who did that look first, to be honest.

    I think the chrome grille functions in scaring away zombies.

    And humans.
  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
    edited February 2013
    I have been mulling over this thing all afternoon and the various forums where it is being discussed. Not many people digging the changes, or lack thereof... Most of the criticism seems to lie with the snout but many also recognize the improved interior as well. I will say that I do like the updated body lines, there is a bit more agressiveness and edgieness to the profile. THose square wheel arches tho... Even the GM fans hate those on their camps trucks!

    I just think the real sticking point and one that many "haters" (as they are called) are howling about is the lack of any powertrain improvements. I for one have experienced the I-force V8 and it is a monster of an engine, very smooth and rev happy, BUT (and a huge BUT) it is one of the thirstiest V8's in the segment as well...

    And the way that Ford has been re-vamping their engine families and offering solid alternative choices like Eco-Boost for those not needing V8 power, it has to be disappointing that the same powertrain that showed up in 2006 will carry the top of the line Tundra for the next few years.

    Heck, even Dodge with it's 8 speed trannies have helped raise their fleet averages. Plus they have at least brought something innovative to the market with those in bed cargo boxes and Independent suspension... And even GM, they also have a whole new line of engines coming for their trucks (which I think look more like refreshes than full re-designs, just like the Tundra...).

    There is nothing at all that this new Tundra brings to the table IMO. A sad, sad, Pisspoor effort Toyota...

    I almost wonder if they are waving the white flag here and will eventually abandon the segment... They did drop the Tundra based Sequoia after all... :confuse:

    It's a shame, there was a LOT of hype going around about how good this next Tundra was going to be. :sick:
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited February 2013
    FWIW, "the Tundra's new look comes courtesy of its Calty Design Research centers in Newport Beach, California and Ann Arbor, Michigan. The Tundra continues to be assembled exclusively at a Toyota plant in San Antonio."

    2014 Toyota Tundra Takes Aim at Domestic Rivals
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I wouldn't even call it new.

    Having said that, the interior was a deal-killer on the old one. Not the case now.
  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
    I agree completely. And... I could almost get past the new grill if it were the right color.

    But those drivetrains... :sick: I haven't seen any official specs but did they even update the chassis on this one? I know that non-fully boxed frame was a black mark against the current one (bed bounce) and they have been touting the fully boxed thing with the Tacoma so I would hope they would scale that up to get with the times of everyone else.
  • lemkolemko Philadelphia, PAMember Posts: 15,261
    It looks like a Civic.
  • lemkolemko Philadelphia, PAMember Posts: 15,261
    edited February 2013
    If not for the Toyota emblem on the wheel, I'd swear that was a Ford interior.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Frames do need to flex, at least in strategic areas. Even a semi isn't fully boxed.
  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
    edited February 2013
    Q: (Other reporter) What’s your take on Nissan saying sales are moving more towards fleet and away from consumer?

    We really don’t play in the fleet market and we base most of our sales on retail sales and satisfying that retail customer. I believe that side of the market will improve because there is a lot of pent up demand. We are even seeing that in the retail market, people have held onto trucks longer than they have. We are already seeing that, last month truck sales were up 30 percent.

    We believe that 1.8 million (units) sold in the half-ton market isn’t unreasonable. Were comfortable with that, we would like to increase our market share, but quite honestly we are limited by capacity. If we can keep the plant at 100% capacity and have the best truck on the market, we will be satisfied.

    Q: (responds to questioning about ¾ ton and why if it doesn’t affect CAFÉ standards, why doesn’t Toyota build them)

    Quite honestly, we don’t have the capacity to build more trucks. The truck capacity in San Antonio is 250,000 at full capacity. I would love to have more capacity, it is a good problem to have (laughter). But, it allows us to really focus on satisfying our customers. We aren’t trying to be everything to everybody. If you look some of our styling especially on premium grades, it is polarizing. It is a love/hate that is by design. The person who likes the Platinum doesn’t like the 1794.

    Q: Could we be looking at a Hybrid?

    I can’t speak to future powertrain.

    Q: You did sign an agreement with Ford, would you have to adjust the chassis?

    Again, I can’t speak to future powertrains, but we might have something.

    Q: Mike, are the rust issues done with this truck?

    The rust issues were a supplier issue and yes, we have a different supplier. And we have increased the overall corrosion to what we believe is the best from a durability stand point. Again, we had a supplier quality issue, unfortunately. We caught the issue and it has been fixed.

    And I have to say, I think, when you look at what Toyota has done, when we found out we had corrosion issues, we made sure we satisfied customers. Again, durability is one of our foundations, we went back and made sure those customers were satisfied by either replacing frames or replacing trucks. It’s an unfortunate situation. We try to make sure we are good partners with our suppliers and support our supplies, but in this case we had an unfortunate situation.

    Q: (other reporter and I “discussing” past rust issues, I bring up the bed bolt rust)
    On the bed bolt rust issue, we had the same corrosion everybody else did. We changed the coating on our bolts to a 20-year protection cast corrosion treatment.

    Part of the corrosion especially with fasteners is with the elimination of the heavy metals. We can’t use Chromate anymore which was the main corrosion element in fasteners.

    Q: What’s your take on the bed bounce issue; do you think this truck rides better?

    The choppy ride in itself, yes it does. We made some improvements. We tuned the suspension. Is our choppy ride completely gone? No it is natural part of a truck. Our competitors have a choppy ride as well.

    Q. How does the ride compare to competitors?

    I think this truck is better than maybe the #1 selling truck. They changed their calibration and tuned suspension. Not sure why they did, but they did. We added other features like the Aero-Fins stabilizers (located on rear tail light and mirrors). They don’t look like much, but they are really quite surprising. They are just these little small wings that are on there. They look great in the wind tunnel. But, when you actually put them on and start driving more than 45mph you really start noticing.

    What it does is it creates turbulence alongside the truck and it helps with straight line stability of the truck itself. The air is pushing and instead of becoming detached from the truck, it is pulling air alongside the truck and it helps stabilize the front. The ones on the back creates a downdraft which helps with the choppy ride as well.

    Q: On the hood raise did you have to compact anything or was that for cosmetics?

    Purely cosmetics.

    Q: Have you changed the rear-end at all? (Limited Slip)

    No, we have not changed the limited slip at all. We have done a lot of driving of other trucks. Quite honestly, you’d be surprised what this truck can do. When you talk about changing rear-end I have a 10.5 axle on it, that’s what our competitors have on their ¾ and 1-ton trucks. That helps with that SAE J2807 standard and gives us that durability that we are trying to promote.

    Q: (Another reporter question) Other truck manufactures aren’t up to SAE J2807 standard yet?

    It’s a mystery to us. All major OEM’s participated in creating that standard. If you look at any manufacture in North America and some of the foreign producers all participating in the writing in that standard. But, we are the only ones since 2007 that complied with the standard.

    I can speculate why that is. I can’t tell you why they are trying to create their own standard.

    When we adapted the standard our towing went down a few hundred pounds. With this truck, we got that back. Our speculation is that the other players in the market will go down a lot more than just a few hundred pounds.

    Our goal is to make sure we are really satisfying the customer and we are giving the customer what we say we are giving them. So, they walk away satisfied.

    I don’t have a lot of complaints about you promised me this fuel economy and I’m getting this fuel economy. We focus on combined fuel economy. When we market our vehicles, test our vehicles, certify our vehicles, we are always talking real-world fuel economy. We are probably under-promising and over delivering. But, a lot of our customers do the opposite. Their focus is on highway. Well, if you only drive highway and EPA cycle then fabulous you can probably hit that. But, what we are seeing in the market right now is a lot of complaints especially with a lot of these smaller displacement engines. You promised me this and I am not getting that at all. You promised me 21 and I’m getting 15. There is a big difference there and I paid a $1,000 more for this engine.

    We want to make sure that we are actually delivering what we are promising. That is one of the reasons we focused on the new towing standard. When the customer hooks us up and they read through our owner’s manual, its not like well you said I was going to tow 11,100, but by the time I make all the deductions I have to make, I’m only towing 7,100. When you read our brochure, we say here are your deductions and we say you can tow this amount, you can tow this amount.

    You don’t have to sit there and do a lot of fuzzy math to get there.

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  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    The rust issues were a supplier issue and yes, we have a different supplier

    Interesting, so no longer Dana. Wonder who the new supplier is?

    We want to make sure that we are actually delivering what we are promising

    Fine and dandy but it sounds like they're using this as an excuse not to innovate at all. You can't win the game if you're sitting on the side lines.

    I would love to have more capacity

    Baloney. They think it's too risky to increase capacity, so they intentionally limit supply so that there is enough demand, and they can sell their trucks at a premium vs. the domestics.
  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
    edited February 2013
    Interesting, so no longer Dana. Wonder who the new supplier is?

    I've been scouring the net all morning to find this info, with no luck... :(

    Surely Greg and some others on here are going to be disappointed by this. Seeing as his claims that all Toyotas frames are gone by 5 years. Funny, I saw a 90's T-100 go by my window about 5 minutes ago... hmmm... ;)
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