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The UAW and Domestic Automakers

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Comments

  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganPosts: 13,994
    Well then my fathers supervisor is a liar ????
    Maybe so. I just don't see why he'd lie about something like that.

    Rocky
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Crossroads of America I70 & I75 Posts: 23,697
    >dropping a requirement that 4% of it be invested in GM stock.

    In the past it hasn't been that unusual for a company to require stock purchase with at least part of their matching funds for 401's, has it. Ethical, maybe not good since people learned with Enron; but somewhat company-centric for the extra money they're offering for investing in your own retirement.

    2015 Cruze 2LT, 2014 Malibu 2LT, 2008 Cobalt 2LT

  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganPosts: 13,994
    Yup !!!!
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Posts: 6,048
    Ethical, maybe not good since people learned with Enron; but somewhat company-centric for the extra money they're offering for investing in your own retirement.

    One good thing though was that GM did not require you to keep the GM stock in the 401. After at time you could transfer it to a bunch of Fidelity or other mutual funds. I never had much GM stock unless I felt it was at one of it's low points in the cycle.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Posts: 6,048
    Well then my fathers supervisor is a liar ????
    Maybe so. I just don't see why he'd lie about something like that.

    Rocky


    Does he work at a plant?
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganPosts: 13,994
    Yes he does. Delphi Coopersville.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Posts: 6,048
    Yes he does. Delphi Coopersville.

    OK, first of all he does not even work with GM. I am sure Delphi now has have different rules.

    Two, plants are city based and often the plant manager needs to have his plant meet or contribute so much money so he/Delphi looks good to the city fathers. Matter of both pride and financial sense since the company needs to keep the city happy to help the company bottom line.
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganPosts: 13,994
    Well my damn aunt and uncle do work for GM in Wyoming Michigan (fischer body) My uncle is a supervisor for GM and has reassured me this is the same practice for GM. Calling Delphi not the same company is simply ignorant since basically the same people sit on the board at both company's. GM is still the major shareholder for Delphi and is responsible for Delphi's "well being" during the 99 spin-off. I however don't want to argue with you over it. I admit I'm wrong on some issues. I've been wrong a few times in this forum and glad when people call me on it. However this issue I'm not wrong on. Both Delphi/GM
    "EXPECT" their supervision to own/buy (X) amount of stock to prove they are loyal to the company. Yes they get stock options to buy the shares lower than market cost to make it a benefit.

    Rocky
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Posts: 6,048
    Both Delphi/GM
    "EXPECT" their supervision to own/buy (X) amount of stock to prove they are loyal to the company. Yes they get stock options to buy the shares lower than market cost to make it a benefit.


    Rocky, I worked for GM for 23 years. Never in that 23 years was I "expected" to own any GM stock. And I was in "supervision" for part of that. Perhaps our definition of "supervisor" is different. I do know that the lower levels of unclassified's are not expected to own any stock.

    I do have stock options. They are not given at discount. You are given a certain amount of shares. Within a certain time period you need to "sell" these options and you get the difference between the option price and the selling price. So if the shares were opted to you at $50 and it is at $60 you get $10. However if it goes down you get nada. My wife and I have so many shares that are worthless.

    The Wyoming plant is Delphi. I believe they make valve lifters. Fisher Body has been gone for about 20 years.
  • jae5jae5 Posts: 1,206
    62 and Rocky, you're both correct. I am not 100% of this now, especially as someone mentioned the post Enron-era, things have changed. but in the not too distant past depending upon the level of management you were at, it was lets say "hinted" that stock options in th e company should be purchased. Not stating that this was law or written, but that was going on in this and other industries. It kind of showed loyalty, you believed in the company, yada-yada-yada company man/woman. Even in 401k meetings I've been in, many times when picking the investments the company's stock was pushed. They didn't come right out and tell you you had to, but it was always a "good" investment purchase. Kind of like insurance, loans, whatever.

    So 62, while YOU may not have been in that position doesn't mean it didn't happen. But you are right, lower levels were not expected to by stock, could have been that it was felt the lower levels weren't going to buy that much anyway, don't know.

    But Rocky is right as well, just because it was a Delphi plant, it was still considered under the GM umbrella, just as many people still think of Delphi is just the new name of Delco-Remy, AC_Delco or Delco. Just as people equate Visteon is being FOMOCO. May not be 100% true, but it is true to many. And how do you know, you were too busy removing all the colors from GM interiors and making everything gray, brown or black(from another forum) ;)

    Have a happy holiday.
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganPosts: 13,994
    Well it's still known as Fisher body. It's a stamping plant still owned by Delphi. The Wyoming plant makes valve lifters. Delphi coopersville makes Fuel Injectors. Jae5 is correct in what he said.

    Rocky
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Posts: 6,048
    Sorry, just want to assure anyone reading this that no one is pressured to buy or own GM stock except for the top 100 or so unclassified's. This will not be an Enron type issue IF GM's stock goes under. Anyone still holding GM stock will have it because they feel it is a good investment or have not bothered to reallocate their 401's.

    Is there even a program available to the Union folks that helps buy GM stock? I know they do not have a 401 available.
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganPosts: 13,994
    Is there even a program available to the Union folks that helps buy GM stock? I know they do not have a 401 available.

    Your answer is wrong again. UAW doesn't have a sponsored 401K, but the workers do have a 401K along with their define benefit plan working for GM/Delphi. It also includes a company match. They also can use pre-tax dollars to buy company stock. ;)

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganPosts: 13,994
    I think this year will be the biggest year of the domestic manufactors. I think it can go 2 ways. GM, Ford, Chrysler, Delphi, management will negotiate huge concessions now with later rewards when things get turned around. William Clay Ford Sr. kept his promise to the UAW when he negotiated concessions back in the early 90's. He later made it up to them with bonuses and above average industry contracts. If management is committed to bring back the Glory Days of the Big 3 which I believe is still possible, then I believe the UAW will give up alot now for later good contract gains. It will have to be a promise kept by both sides. ;)

    #1 The Big 3 management and engineers however will have to design cars that are of the "highest quality" to win back import buyers and never ever again skimp again.

    #2 They need to get the Customer Service to the levels of Lexus. Even if Joe Six-Pack, is buying a Chevy, he better get treated like royalty.

    #3 Will be cars that are among the most Technologically advanced vehicles in the world. But still have brands that produce cars for people like Loren. ;)

    Those are my Big 3 for the BIG 3 :shades:

    Rocky
  • qbrozenqbrozen Posts: 26,207
    I just wanted to throw something out there that i don't think was mentioned.

    Some folks seem worried about tough times for the Big 3 and possibly going out of business, or at least shutting down production and plants in some cases, thereby putting many folks out of work.

    Well... am I the only one that thinks these folks will just then be hired by the other manufacturers as they build more plants and ramp up production to sell more of their cars to make up for the lack of supply caused by the Big 3 in this scenario?

    Then again ... seems to me the Big 3 will just increase their production at their Mexican plants as they close US plants. Lemme ask something: do the Big 3 pay the large tariffs on these vehicles that "foreign" manufacturers pay? My guess is no, in which case the only thing I can see the government doing to help the situation is charge these large tariffs on ALL inbound vehicles, regardless of manufacturer or country of origin. In this manner, the Big 3 will need to produce their vehicles, competitively, in this country, just like the foreign manufacturers.

    '10 Equinox LS; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '14 Town&Country Limited; '18 BMW X2. 49-car history and counting!

  • lemmerlemmer Posts: 2,699
    Well... am I the only one that thinks these folks will just then be hired by the other manufacturers as they build more plants and ramp up production to sell more of their cars to make up for the lack of supply caused by the Big 3 in this scenario?

    Agreed. However, most people don't understand economics well enough to have this discussion. Emotions rule these kind of debates here.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Crossroads of America I70 & I75 Posts: 23,697
    The "other" manufacturers will employ low cost southland or Mexican workers; they want nothing to do with unemployed workers who think unions are good and expect wages to be liveable for doing work.

    Just watched Dateline story last night about Walmart pressuring manufacturers to move production to China to lower costs so Walmart can make more money--closing plants in US. Catch the program when it reruns. Parallel it to auto production companies in your thinking.

    When Clinton (past Arkansas governor)signed trade agreement to send our imports to China it really opened it up to Walmart to import more from China. China has bought next to nothing imported from US. Guess who gets taken in this deal. Jobs gone. Manufacturing gone to China. Third world county- us in US.

    2015 Cruze 2LT, 2014 Malibu 2LT, 2008 Cobalt 2LT

  • lemmerlemmer Posts: 2,699
    I could be wrong, but I would guess that Ford and GM (along with VW maybe) are the biggest users of Mexican labor for auto production.

    In case you haven't noticed, many profitable car manufacturers are setting up shop in the Southern USA. The people here haven't learned that getting paid far better wages and benefits than they could earn anywhere else is a bad thing (even though the unions keep trying to explain it to them). Hopefully greed won't eventually ruin things here like it has in Detroit.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Crossroads of America I70 & I75 Posts: 23,697
    will employ low cost Southland

    >In case you haven't noticed,

    That's what I meant by southland. Just visited friends in Smyrna, TN, home of Nissan's huge plant and lots of employees. It's a hire for pay state. Hire and fire anytime employer wants!!! No problems with older retirees in the future; you just fire them when they start to get older and need more healthcare; there's always new bodies to put on the lines!

    2015 Cruze 2LT, 2014 Malibu 2LT, 2008 Cobalt 2LT

  • qbrozenqbrozen Posts: 26,207
    The "other" manufacturers will employ low cost southland or Mexican workers; they want nothing to do with unemployed workers who think unions are good and expect wages to be liveable for doing work.

    Ah, but my point is they won't. Since they are a "foreign" manufacturer, even if they build in Mexico, those vehicles would be charged with huge tariffs, the same reason they have built plants here in the US to begin with. At least, that's my uneducated understanding of the process. If anyone knows differently in regards to how these tariffs work, please chime in.

    And this is also why I'm saying if US manufacturers were charged tariffs on the vehicles they import under their nameplate, maybe they would also find that building here in the US benefits them.

    Wages to be "liveable"? are you serious? $40/hr is WAY more than liveable. I live in one of the most expensive states in the country (NJ) and I don't make $40/hr, yet I have a pretty expensive house, 2 car payments, a child on the way, etc, etc, and I'm not crying poverty by any means. I can't because everyone close to me is making even less, yet they are all still homeowners with car payments, etc, as well. NOBODY NEEDS $40/hr.

    '10 Equinox LS; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '14 Town&Country Limited; '18 BMW X2. 49-car history and counting!

  • lemkolemko Philadelphia, PAPosts: 15,306
    "They need to get the Customer Service to the levels of Lexus. Even if Joe Six-Pack, is buying a Chevy, he better get treated like royalty."

    I agree. One good example was the Chevrolet dealer from which my girlfriend bought her Impala. I couldn't believe how nice and modern the shop was with a clean, well-furnished waiting room and extremely courteous staff. Shoot, I wish the Cadillac and Buick dealer could be as good as this Chevy dealer.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Posts: 6,048
    Ah, but my point is they won't. Since they are a "foreign" manufacturer, even if they build in Mexico, those vehicles would be charged with huge tariffs, the same reason they have built plants here in the US to begin with. At least, that's my uneducated understanding of the process. If anyone knows differently in regards to how these tariffs work, please chime in.

    And this is also why I'm saying if US manufacturers were charged tariffs on the vehicles they import under their nameplate, maybe they would also find that building here in the US benefits them.


    Not sure what the heck you are talking about. The only tariffs left are the 25% on trucks brought in from otside the NAFTA areas. Mexico and Canadian built vehicles imported to the US have no Tariffs or duties.

    Their newest plant is built in Lansing at a cost of $1.5 billion over the past few years. There are 3 GM only plants in Mexico and 3 in Canada(soon to be 2) that "export" to the US.
  • lemmerlemmer Posts: 2,699
    It's a hire for pay state. Hire and fire anytime employer wants!!!

    I've never known anything different. It doesn't bother me. I am worth what I am paid, so my employer has no reason to fire me. I will have enough money to retire before I have to worry about being fired in my old age.

    I already pay for social security and medicare for people who don't have enough of their own money for retirement. Why should I subsidize them further by buying poor-value American cars?
  • qbrozenqbrozen Posts: 26,207
    Not sure what the heck you are talking about.

    which is why I've already stated multiple times that I don't know what I'm talking about and am asking for those who DO know to help out the discussion with correct info.

    So are you saying that a Japanese car built in Mexico has no extra tariffs to pay? If that is the case, why are they building plants in the US while American manufacturers are closing theirs down?

    '10 Equinox LS; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '14 Town&Country Limited; '18 BMW X2. 49-car history and counting!

  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Posts: 6,048
    So are you saying that a Japanese car built in Mexico has no extra tariffs to pay? If that is the case, why are they building plants in the US while American manufacturers are closing theirs down?

    Very good question. Who know's the real answers?

    Here are some reasons though.

    Iacocca said they should build the cars they sell here, here in the US. They did that.

    They can say they are "american" companies even though in the total costs of a car the place where it is built is a small part. They have to pay someone to build them. They have to buy the parts from somewhere. Yes they might costs a bit more than building them at home BUT, they still have the advantage of their home country paid health care and pension for the majority of their employees. They also have kept their US plants non union which helps in both costs and productivity by going down south where non college grads will work for less. Also many of their vehicles are still imported. Depends on which company. Toyota imports about a 1/3 of it's vehicles.

    Why are the US plants closing down. Take a look at this forum for the last month. Overall reason in my opinion is that there is a lot more competition in this country than 20 years ago. New competition means that the big pie is cut up into smaller pieces. The old competitors lose parts of the pie if the consumer feels that the new guys give a better product at a fair price.

    GM and Ford are going to get smaller. Time will only tell if they can stop getting smaller and get profitable again. As I said earlier GM is still spending billions of dollars on new plants and facilities to get competitive. One reason they lost all that money last year is due to huge investments in new plants and new product.
  • qbrozenqbrozen Posts: 26,207
    well, i know why US plants of the domestic manufacturers are closing down. I should have explained my question better. It was sort of rhetorical, but what I'm saying is, domestic manufacturers are closing down US plants and building cars in other countries, while foreign manufacturers are opening new plants and building cars here in the US. Quite counterintuitive.

    Bottom line is the domestic manufacturers have to at least catch up with the foreign manufacturers and follow their manufacturing methods.

    They can say they are "american" companies even though in the total costs of a car the place where it is built is a small part.

    Its not small if you are an out-of-work auto worker.

    How many parts of any car are manufactured here? Does anyone have access to some kind of master list that shows what percentage of parts are manufactured where? That would be interesting to add to the discussion. It must be out there somewhere.

    '10 Equinox LS; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '14 Town&Country Limited; '18 BMW X2. 49-car history and counting!

  • qbrozenqbrozen Posts: 26,207
    i decided to try a quick search and wanted to post an article that popped up.
    http://www.cfo.com/article.cfm/4267617/c_4266733?f=TodayInFinance_Inside

    '10 Equinox LS; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '14 Town&Country Limited; '18 BMW X2. 49-car history and counting!

  • mirthmirth Posts: 1,212
    I read a Detroit News article that stated the percentage of U.S. manufactured parts in cars were:

    GM, Ford, Chrysler: 80%
    Japanese: 31%
    German: 5%
    Korean: 2%
  • mirthmirth Posts: 1,212
    We've got two choices in this country - Democrats and Republicans. The Democrats signed NAFTA, but the Republicans want to expand that to South America too. Basically, the Republicans would definitely be worse for the UAW. Choice of the lesser evil I guess.
  • martianmartian Posts: 220
    I still don't understand..canada seems to be able to preserve its domestic auto mfg. business..is this because the Canadian UAW realize that they had better watch out for their jobs? It seems that the USA had better ponder its fate-if you saw FRONTLINE last night ("IS WALMART GOOD FOR THE USA")-you have to shudder-no more domestic TV set manufacture. And, all of the factory jobs GONE-along with-the salemen who sold components to the TV factory-the local businesses, the restaurants who fed the workers-all of those support jobs gone (permanently).
    I can see WALMART selling Chinese-made cars within 5 years-as GM shuts down. the only thing i wonder-how will US workers buy a car on their $8.00/hour WALMART jobs?
    And forget about Congress-the Chinese have bought them..ala Jack Abramoff!
  • john81john81 Posts: 60
    Most of America's industrial might is now owned by foreign interests, or have been closed in favor of cheap imports. We have become a nation of consumers of service oriented jobs. So, how much patience are foreign industrial nations are going to be concerned over Union's demands? It was the Unions which caused the American companies to go belly up in the first place, so these foreign companies will do anything to prevent history from repeating itself.
    The only Union I feel is absolutely necessary are the coal and mining unions. To buy American, I have 3 car companies to choose from if I want my money to stay here in America. So, what's the incentive for buying American? Am I buying a car or am I supporting an organization which might eventually destroy all of what American was built on? The Unions were supposed to counter corporate greed in favor of taking care of the blue collar workers. Unfortunately, greed has now spread through American industry like a virus and unions are right there contributing to the plague.
    In 20 years, I don't want to be standing on the street corner holding up a sign written in Chinese, "Will work for Food"!
    John
  • qbrozenqbrozen Posts: 26,207
    is one of those 3 choices Honda?

    just found this, which I thought interesting:

    2002 Honda Accord 2dr EX-L 2.3-4 4spd Auto
    Japanese Owned
    USA Assembly- Marysville, Ohio
    USA Engine
    USA Transmission
    70% US/Canadian Parts Content
    20% Japanese Parts Content

    2002 Honda Accord 4dr EX-VC 3.0v6 4spd Auto
    Japanese Owned
    USA Assembly- Marysville, Ohio
    USA Engine
    USA Transmission
    70% US/Canadian Parts Content
    20% Japanese Parts Content

    So, once again, here we have a foreign auto manufacturer that builds a car here in the US, with US employees, paying US taxes, owning US property, and doing so with 70% of parts built in the US by US employees, etc, etc.

    Yet, at the same time, the Chevy Aveo is a rebadged Korean car. SO... I guess what I'm saying is, for those who want to feel patriotic and "buy 'Mericun" might want to look at the actual individual cars rather than just their nameplate.

    '10 Equinox LS; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '14 Town&Country Limited; '18 BMW X2. 49-car history and counting!

  • sorattsoratt Posts: 5
    Your not allowed to point out facts like that in this forum. You have to buy "big 3" products to buy "american." Chrysler is owned by GERMAN Daimler but if you buy a Chrysler your somehow magically buying American.
  • mirthmirth Posts: 1,212
    ...that the Japanese make cars other than the Accord.
  • sorattsoratt Posts: 5
    ...that GM makes cars at all.
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganPosts: 13,994
    Actually Delphi is Mexico's biggest employer !!!! :cry:

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganPosts: 13,994
    It's sad too. :mad:

    Rocky
  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Posts: 4,277
    Only Honda's built outside the US are the TSX and the S2000...
  • carlisimocarlisimo Posts: 1,280
    Aren't the hybrids imported from Japan?

    In Japan it's union workers too though. I wonder if the UAW considers them cousins.
  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Posts: 4,277
    I believe the Insight was built in Japan alongside the S2k and NSX. But the new hybrids are assembled in Ohio. The Battery packs are Japanese.

    I'll check on that again though...
  • lemkolemko Philadelphia, PAPosts: 15,306
    Funny, and Wal-Mart is America's biggest employer! Seems backwards.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Posts: 6,048
    Only Honda's built outside the US are the TSX and the S2000...

    Actually all Acuras are imported except for the TL. Only some of the Civics and Accords are built here. All Accord hybrids are imported. About 10% of the Accords and Civics are imported. (automotive News web site)

    Of course most of their vehicle volume is the Accore, Civic and TL!
    http://www.autonews.com/assets/PDF/CA38181212.PDF
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganPosts: 13,994
    Do you guys really think GM, Ford, Chrysler, would honestly pay a good wage if it wasn't for the UAW/IUE/CAW unions ?????

    I've worked in a non-union auto parts plant - Johnson Controls Inc. I started out making $11.24 and over a years time I got a raise of .50 cents to $11.74 :cry:
    Over a 3-4 yr. time period you could make up to $14 and change-> WHOA !!!!! Big bucks :surprise:
    I think my point is proven !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Why should the fat cats make all the money ?????

    Hey I don't neccessary hate people that have never belonged or grew up around a union. It's just frusterating when some one who's never belonged shoots of his or hers mouth on something they have no idea about. I would of never made a fair salary and benefits without a union. The other big advantage is you can raise safety issues to management without getting terminated or losing your current position which I've seen done in a non-union Job I had. Even if it slows down production or effciency. A union is only as strong as the members paying dues and supporting one as a united body. If you have cold feet as member, then the mssion will fail. I yes belong to a union and have worked for a few. I grew up in a UAW, IUE, IBEW, Teamster, household and family. I belonged to the UAW, RWDSU, UPGWA, and currently PGU member ;)

    So yes some of you are making good assumptions that at Toyota it will be a temporary job for most. Once your body breaks down from the years of wear and tear they will replace you with somebody younger. The whistle blowers at Toyota, Honda, that are getting older have came out of the closet and told the UAW that some of the people are getting fired for various reasons that are unexplainable. It's hushed, when the real truth has been leaked. The truth is a older worker is slower and not as efficient, has more vacation time, takes more sick days, and makes more money. He/She will be replaced easily by a new younger worker making less money and benefits. This sounds like a great place to work. Welcome to republican politics, corporate greed, and the loss of worker rights in this greatest nation on gods green earth. :sick:

    Rocky

    P.S. some of you understand exactly what I'm talking about since it's perhaps happened to you. :cry:
  • lemkolemko Philadelphia, PAPosts: 15,306
    It happened to my Dad when he was 60. He had worked in the plant for 24 years. He was a supervisor and they replaced him and a whole bunch of guys around his age with a bunch of young college pukes who couldn't tell a break press from a spotwelder. The jerks couldn't even wait two years for him to retire at 62. Fortunately, Dad was able to find a decent job for the last 3 years of his working life. For nearly two years, Dad endured degrading work as a dishwasher, telemarketer, and clerk in Lowe's electrical department. Dad did go to school to upgrade his skills and graduated at the top of his class. The younger guys who didn't do as well were immediately offered jobs by recruiters. Nobody wanted a "broken-down old man" though Dad is in excellent health and looks almost 20 years younger than his age.
  • lemmerlemmer Posts: 2,699
    What is a break press?
  • carlisimocarlisimo Posts: 1,280
    So you're saying that companies aren't necessarily loyal to the people they want loyalty from.

    I hope your dad's happily retired now.
  • lemkolemko Philadelphia, PAPosts: 15,306
    ...is a machine used to punch holes of various diameters in various types of metals. A 150 ton break press can punch a hole 1/4" to 2" in diameter in a mild piece of steel up to 1" thick.
  • lemkolemko Philadelphia, PAPosts: 15,306
    He's happily retired now, but don't ever bring up the name of the company that did him such a great injustice. Dad was no slacker. He took classes and upgraded his skills as needed. There was probably no greater disciple of Deming, but they could care less.
  • swellswell Posts: 1
    "The truth is a older worker is slower and not as efficient, has more vacation time, takes more sick days, and makes more money."

    This is one of the problems with our auto industry (and other industries too). With union enforced seniority, we have the older, less motivated workers building our cars. Unions take motivation and creativity away from workers and base eveything on seniority.

    "Why should the fat cats make all the money ?????"

    Take some initiative, start your own company, then you can make "all the money"!

    If these auto workers were to be compensated based on merit, we might have domestically built cars that are reliable!
This discussion has been closed.