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So you are saying if there's a different part to be used, or a different design, or a change it's the worker's fault because they don't make the management spend the extra time or money to develope or put the part into production??? I don't think that's realistic.
How about Toyota and the sludge. Or the hesitation in the transmissions now. Are those the worker's fault?
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Some feathers were ruffled at the "merger of equals" between Chryco & Daimler, but the majority got over that now haven't they? Heck, even Kerkorian has moved on - to your beloved GM. And it is he and his spokesman York that are pushing for the bold moves, dump Pontiac, Saab, bring in someone from the outside, crap or get off the crapper...
Rocky
Management at GM seems to be serious now. The focus turns to the UAW and how it approaches the future. If the UAW decides to remain adversial and punish GM 'just because they can', GM can still go down for the count.
The way forward for UAW members is to accept the same wages and benefits as the transplant factories.
This still means UAW members would have better pay and benefits than 90% of manufacturing workers in the USA.
Toyota starts it's new hires at $19.50 plus health benefits + 401K. The GM/Delphi-UAW new hires might not even have a job in the future, since out-sourcing will continue. Many are taking a high-risk in the hopes of having something decent in the future + a job. If the veteran UAW workers cost the company so much, then why is it the GM can manufactor a vehicle cheaper than Toyota ? Socala, has pointed that out several times on this forum. The biggest difference between the two, is Toyota will take a little less profit and make a desired product and make up the difference on volume, while GM and it's beancounters would rather discount and make a cheaper overall vehicle than Toyota. They would rather buy cheap plastic and cut corners to meet a specific price point, instead of building vehicles to a desired benchmark something many Japanese, and European, Scandinavian, automobile company's do and do it very well.
The different approachs has yielded market share domination for the elite Japanese and European brands. I do believe GM, is finally learning they need to build desirable products. However not investing into the work-force, could someday spell major problems for the domestics.
Rocky
Aren't those "new" hires only temp workers, like on a 90-day deal? Or are the people you're talking about direct hires?
Rocky
That means the UAW should stand its ground at $19.50/hour, a 401K and health benefits.
Right?
The UAW, should say here's the deal GM. We will eliminate all our expensive benefits & retirement for a straight wage. You say it costs you $81 an hour. Uncle Rick, we will work for $65 an hour and take care of the rest. You just saved $16 bucks an hour per employee. You just saved tens of billions, and we can live a better life and leave GM earlier than the 30 and out.
You can now fire many of your admin folks now yielding billions in savings over X number of years also.
I'm not trying to be a sicko, but would be benefitual to both the company and the UAW employee. I'd call GM's bluff on it's total cost per employee. "Toyota, would have to crap or get of the pot." :P
Rocky
The bottom line is that the union has brought in higher than average US wages and beni's for its members. The UAW, even with those possible beni's and wages, have been unable to get the transplants to join.
For GM to survive they must get competitive wages. If not they will always be behind the cost picture unless they go outside the country and find lower wages. GM has not really done that except for a couple of plants in Mexico but it may need to soon to stay in business. The UAW does recognise this and hopefully with the new contract something will happen.
Only if the actual americans could see through the yellow journalist press, and not believe everything they read because a company spokesmouth said this is the truth. You got Joseph Goebels, as the beat writer, writing propoganda to make his story interesting doesn't help matters.
The temps MAY get hired in permanantly. I doubt many will once the job banks floks are moved around. If they do they will get hired in at the current UAW negotiated wages and beni's no matter what other rumors are out there.
Anyone hired after 99' isn't elgible for the golden UAW pay, benefits, retirement package.
For GM to survive they must get competitive wages. If not they will always be behind the cost picture unless they go outside the country and find lower wages.
They build automobiles cheaper than the Japanese.
Instead of only asking good quality working people to give up the moon for wages and beni's why don't they first build quality automobiles across the board, otherwise just cost cutting won't yield any marketshare back. Why don't they first fire 50% of the white collar workers.
GM has not really done that except for a couple of plants in Mexico but it may need to soon to stay in business. The UAW does recognise this and hopefully with the new contract something will happen.
Have any of you thought about this ? I was talking to dad, yesterday and he told me that GM and Delphi are tacking-on the building of plants to its overall cost structure. GM & Delphi have spent Billion$ of dollars oversea's but for some odd reason this FACT is left out and instead the UAW gets blamned again. "imagine that" :sick:
Rocky
Maybe I should have been more clear on the plants at GM. For the North American market they are not building plants in inexpensive areas except a couple in Mexico. Yes GM is building plants all over the world to supply vehicles for the markets they are selling in. None are being built to import NA sold vehicles.
What is the pay and beni's for those hired at GM after '99?
Could you explain where you found that GM vehicles are cheaper to produce than a comparable transplant vehicle? Perhaps GM is getting cheaper parts here in the US than the transplants are getting theres from overseas?
Ummm, since when, or where did you hear or read that at ? It might of be fully funded for this year. Last time I knew they haven't paid up for the years of no funding, which is why they are tacking on those years of non-funding to overall labor costs per vehicle.
Yes GM is building plants all over the world to supply vehicles for the markets they are selling in. None are being built to import NA sold vehicles.
Where are you living at ? GM has built several plants in Mexico, China, over the years to import vehicles for NA america. Sure Ford is doing the same, and Chrysler is the worst of the Big 3. The Equinox has a 70% Chinese content and yes I know it's assembled in Canada. The Chevy Aveo is built in the Daewoo plant in Korea, which GM purchased. It's just a matter of time, before they start importing other cars into NA. Some Escalades, Tahoes, Yukons, are built in Mexico for NA import.
Could you explain where you found that GM vehicles are cheaper to produce than a comparable transplant vehicle? Perhaps GM is getting cheaper parts here in the US than the transplants are getting theres from overseas?
I think it's a combination of 2 things. #1 Parts are cheaper to make over here, and our domestic car company's are starting to use alot cheaper suppliers instead of always buying the best. i.e. Look at the interior quality difference between a Civic and a Cobalt.
#2 U.S. Union workers out-perform the Japanese 3 to 1 in manufactoring. The U.S. union worker vs. non-union is 2 to 1.
Union workers stay at a company, and in many cases the non-union worker leaves his/her company for better pay and/or benefits, leaving the company a new hire that needs lotsa training to keep up with everyone else. Toyota, does fire alot of people, but has pre-employment tests for spped and texdarity. The difference between Toyota and GM, is GM gets more parts and cars out the door per night. When Toyota has a break, the whole plant shuts down for break. At GM, break time in many cases is when the line is down or they are ahead of schedule, but not everyone at the same time takes a break. If they need X parts out the door at X time, they will have a relief person come relieve for breaks.
What is the pay and beni's for those hired at GM after '99?
They haven't yet been enacted yet since GM hasn't pernamently hired anyone after 99' UAW wise. From what dad says is they are paying a portion of their insurance, have a 401K Vegas retirement, and are at a 2 tier wage plan, which I believe he said was $14 an hour and you could make up to $18-19 an hour. Sure that might be awesome in some parts of the country, but in alot of places that is like making mininum wage.
Rocky
http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060727/AUTO02/607270354/1148-
I did say that they have a couple plants in Mexico where they build a pickup truck (no longer importing SUV's), and a soon to be gone Rendezvous. Cobalt I am pretty sure is not being imported like the Cavilier was.
Yes they do build a soon to gone old 3.4 L engine in China. One engine does not mean we should say GM is importing cars from China. I did forget about the low volume Daewoo thing. Hopefully it will increase volume with the new one. As I said I forsee more overseas volume if the plant wages do not become competitive.
All in all GM is barely importing vehicles from 3rd world nations or any other non NA countries.
Complete bullcrap on the union worker thing. Harbour gives a great review every year and while GM is doing better the other transplants still do a better manhours per vehicle ratio. I trust them more than the Union office.
Parts are not cheaper to build here. How you can believe that I do not know. I know because I actually was working with purchasing and know what suppliers charge both here and overseas. That is why Bo is moving a lot of parts from here to there. Delphi is the huge example. they cannot compete. One factor though that saves a lot of NA made parts is the transportation cost and just in time delivery which is impossible with an overseas supply chain.
Complete bull about the plant break system. Some GM plants have whole plant or dept. relief periods and others have individual relief and the plant keeps running (except for lunch). It does not vary with vehicle problems. Break systems do not change on that basis. If they cannot make daily qouta they can either usually run an extra hour of overtime if they really need the vehicles.
Never heard about the new wage rate. Since I doubt we will be hiring for at least 5 years i doubt it will mean anything.
I've answered it several times before. Here it is again. If GM built a car identical to the civic in every way - same parts, same manufacturing process - same precision, It would cost GM at least $1500 more to build than it costs Honda to build a Honda civic. They wouldn't be able to sell it for any more than Honda sells the civic, except to people who will only buy "american" - a shrinking demographic.
So, what do they do? If they cut $1500 in material costs, they'll end up with a car that costs as much as the Civic to make, but nobody would buy a car with inferior material quality if they could get a civic for the same price. So they cut material costs even more during their design phase so that their total cost is lower, and position the car to sell at a lower transaction price than the civic. That's how we got the cobalt. Despite the initially similar sticker prices, did anyone (inside or outside GM) really think the cobalt would sell for the same price as a the civic?
The domestics can't go head to head with the Japanese on cars, where labor is a big part of the equation. So they don't try. That's why the cobalt is slotted below civic/corolla. And why malibu is slotted between civic/corolla and accord/camry. That's why Buick lacrosse is slotted between accord/camry and avalon. That's why the lucerne is slotted between avalon and the Lexus products.
Kerkorkian, Wagoner, are old school and would rather cost cut, then address the issues at large. This approach isn't good at all for the health of GM. Yes they have made some decent quality vehicles, but rebadging cobalts as pontiac G5's doesn't help GM's image. Rebadging the next Holden Monaro as a Chevy Camaro, or GTO, you'd think GM would learn from their disaster with this current GTO. :confuse:
Rocky
That is complete B.S. 62'. They might be
fully funded for 2006' but GM still owes billions of dollars to the UAW-GM pension fund for the past years of non-funding.
I did say that they have a couple plants in Mexico where they build a pickup truck (no longer importing SUV's), and a soon to be gone Rendezvous. Cobalt I am pretty sure is not being imported like the Cavilier was.
Your reply could be true, but I'm going off of what I last new and haven't seen any articles to change my current knowledge.
Yes they do build a soon to gone old 3.4 L engine in China. One engine does not mean we should say GM is importing cars from China. I did forget about the low volume Daewoo thing. Hopefully it will increase volume with the new one. As I said I forsee more overseas volume if the plant wages do not become competitive.
I would then have no incentive to buy a GM product if they start importing vehicles from foreign 3rd would countries. I also feel many americans would thus buy European, or Japanese, because in most cases are better. GM still has alot of "buy american" folks that buy domestic only because it's american. If GM imports cars, what incentive would I have to buy a GM car ? I can buy a Acura, Volvo, BMW, Toyota, etc, and have two or three times the car of a GM
All in all GM is barely importing vehicles from 3rd world nations or any other non NA countries.
That I agree with, however that doesn't mean it won't happen ! :sick:
Complete bullcrap on the union worker thing. Harbour gives a great review every year and while GM is doing better the other transplants still do a better manhours per vehicle ratio. I trust them more than the Union office.
I trust the Dept. of Labor more than Harbour
Parts are not cheaper to build here. How you can believe that I do not know. I know because I actually was working with purchasing and know what suppliers charge both here and overseas. That is why Bo is moving a lot of parts from here to there. Delphi is the huge example. they cannot compete. One factor though that saves a lot of NA made parts is the transportation cost and just in time delivery which is impossible with an overseas supply chain.
Why is it that Johnson Controls, Gentex Corp keep or keep building plants here in the U.S. ????
Delphi, has $11 billion in Asian banks and $16 billion over in European banks. They are painting a picture of
"Poor Delphi" on it's NA operations.
Also Former Senator John Edwards is trying to push a bill through congress that doesn't allow company's to file bankruptcy on false B.S. losses. He asked me to support it by signing my name to a pre-written letter which went to my local Senator, and congress rep. Edwards is very much involved with the UAW. He was upset that Delphi, wants to close 21 out of 29 plants + file bankruptcy, while at the same time pay it's top 600 executives $980 million. They finally recently were approved to spend I believe $72 million (?) on executive compensation packages. Delphi still wants to pay $9-12 an hour with little benefits for it's remaining "9" NA operations. :surprise: Step-dad and aunt, are worried about this becoming reality and both said they will quit.
Complete bull about the plant break system. Some GM plants have whole plant or dept. relief periods and others have individual relief and the plant keeps running (except for lunch). It does not vary with vehicle problems. Break systems do not change on that basis. If they cannot make daily qouta they can either usually run an extra hour of overtime if they really need the vehicles.
I can tell you haven't been in a GM or Delphi plant for quite a while.
Never heard about the new wage rate. Since I doubt we will be hiring for at least 5 years i doubt it will mean anything.
Hey we agree 100%. It's still possible a couple could be hired.
Rocky
The White Collar workers are getting hosed. :sick:
Rocky
"Man these guys are united" :surprise:
Rocky
Rocky
Or are US built Hyundais being shipped back to Korea?
Rocky
P.S. remember that only 5% of the parts in Hyundai/Kia is NA made.
And no I have not been in a Delphi plant in a while. Worked at what became Delphi plants though back in the late 70's.
One thing though, the salarieds are leaving because the pay is not competitive. No raises in a couple years. GM has to do something soon.
And no I have not been in a Delphi plant in a while. Worked at what became Delphi plants though back in the late 70's.
I also am ready to bury the hatchet on this on.
One thing though, the salarieds are leaving because the pay is not competitive. No raises in a couple years. GM has to do something soon.
I agree. About 8 years ago the salaried made good money, but plant floor supervision goet the heck worked out of em' :surprise: Now they not only get the heck worked out of them but now they also don't get compensatede for it.
Rocky
I think you have demonstrated to me over the last couple of months an incredibly simplistic mindset in your solutions. With your level of analysis, poverty,world hunger/PEACE and social inequities would be childs play for you. Many excel at pontificating auto industry solutions. Build a better product at half the cost of the competition with the existing economy/social/governmental/labor structure and make billions as AMERICANS (as they were) buy them voraciously. Right ? Were it only that simple. Watch what happens when the Japanese owned auto manufacturers get in the driver seat (pardon the pun ) only then,if ever, will the euthenized mindset of their workers and consumers become comatose. By that time we will have atrified our manufacturing capacity so severely that we will have become a "global economic eunich." The Auto Industry as it has been know is DEAD. Period ! It hasn't disappeared completely but it will NEVER be as it once was. We have become too much of a fractured, competitive,diverse,culture for that to ever return.
Do you think that it is simply all about product and design. Bull ! It is about value real or percieved in the total auto package in our society. Labor is going to take the biggest hit. Why? Because people won't pay for it.The standard of living in this country will continue to go down.
An erosion of the middle class is an absolute certainty. It just will take time.
The consumer simply does't care about anything but ME, here and now.
I guess I will get off this diatribe and suggest that some of the posters get a grounding in what IS POSSIBLE as opposed to what ideally SHOULD be. POLLYANNA doesn't live here anymore!
As for Wagoner's efforts I seriously question ANY of the posters could do better given the circumstances.
I think you have demonstrated to me over the last couple of months an incredibly simplistic mindset in your solutions. With your level of analysis, poverty,world hunger/PEACE and social inequities would be childs play for you.
There is a huge difference between myself and most others. How/Why ? Well I'm not a Greedy, Selfish, person. I care a lot about the good people of this country. I guess it has something to do with the values taught to me by my family.
Many excel at pontificating auto industry solutions. Build a better product at half the cost of the competition with the existing economy/social/governmental/labor structure and make billions as AMERICANS (as they were) buy them voraciously. Right ?
You are making me sound like a radical with that statement, and I know american company's can't build vehicles for half the cost of the Chinese, competition. However that isn't a excuse to not be able to compete with the Europeans, and Japanese, in build quality and engineering.
So yes I believe I could do at least as good of a job as Wagoner, Bill Ford, Dr. Z, with the help of a few very intelligent people.
I feel my youth is what separates myself from the them. I'm more in touch with what the Generation X & Y crowd want for vehicles. Honda/Acura, along with some Toyota and Lexus models are good examples that the critical buyer likes. Sure the Euro's do a good job of this also.
Were it only that simple.
It is, read the above paragraph over again.
Watch what happens when the Japanese owned auto manufacturers get in the driver seat (pardon the pun ) only then,if ever, will the euthenized mindset of their workers and consumers become comatose.
I think they already have. However the current and past Japanese recalls could end up making them tread some water for a few months. The cover-ups even have a few devout import buyers scrathing there heads.
By that time we will have atrified our manufacturing capacity so severely that we will have become a "global economic eunich." The Auto Industry as it has been know is DEAD. Period !
I think we are already seeing the beginning stages. However I'm very optimistic and believe it's still possible to save. The current economy is in the toilet, which isn't helping matters. When people have to choose paying for healthcare, or gas, over buying a car, you know the auto-industry is toast. The winners could end up being cheap imported cars from China/India within the next decade. :sick:
It hasn't disappeared completely but it will NEVER be as it once was. We have become too much of a fractured, competitive,diverse,culture for that to ever return.
I agree. Just don't blame only the UAW and Company's, but other factors like our politians and the money trail that follows them.
Do you think that it is simply all about product and design. Bull !
Ummm, your fooling yourself if you don't think that is the majority of it. The Europeans, and Japanese can charge more for their products, why ? Well look at the difference in quality across the board. There engines aren't knock-offs from the previous generation. For god sakes the domestics are still trying to convince the U.S. consumer they are just as good as a modern engine engineered in Japan or Germany. Even this devout domestic loyalist can see through the smoke and mirrors. My former 05' Acura TL was better than anything I've driven or owned from the domestics. Why ?
It's engineered to be better. The Quality and Fit and Finish of the TL, is better. The domestics seem to be living in the 90's with the assumption of just adding more hp. power will solve our problem temporary. :mad:
It is about value real or percieved in the total auto package in our society.
I agree with you.
Labor is going to take the biggest hit. Why? Because people won't pay for it.The standard of living in this country will continue to go down.
An erosion of the middle class is an absolute certainty. It just will take time.
I extremely agree with you here pal !!!! This why Chinese and India made vehicles, will grab a strong foot into this country. Why ? Well as we spiral our way down to become a 3rd world country, this will be what most folks might or might not could afford. :surprise:
The consumer simply does't care about anything but ME, here and now.
I think that is part of the problem. I don't blame the consumer, but blame the shareholders, and CEO + board room whom want to make a quick buck now at sacrificing the future. Toyota has a 150 yr. goal, while the Big 3 don't look much further than 5 yrs. down the road.
I guess I will get off this diatribe and suggest that some of the posters get a grounding in what IS POSSIBLE as opposed to what ideally SHOULD be. POLLYANNA doesn't live here anymore!
I agree, but I'm sure we differ in some way on that subject.
As for Wagoner's efforts I seriously question ANY of the posters could do better given the circumstances.
Wagoners, latest efforts have been alright and in some cases surprising. However I still feel I and many others could do a better job. Just because slick Rick, graduated from Yale, doesn't mean he makes the best choice to run a company the size of GM. It's not even close to all his fault, because the past executives ran GM into the ground. I guess many posters will continue to point the finger at the UAW, because everyone needs someone to blame ? It's amazing that executives for some reason don't get trashed like the UAW. It's like they are still idalized by poorer americans. These are the same people who would sell there mother, and first born to make a buck. I do see atleast a little compassion from Rick, though which gives him a certain like ability with me.
Rocky
Executives do not get trashed like the UAW???? They are trashed every day in the media and by posters on this website.
These "execs" are people and americans like us. I guess you could say they "sell their first born" because they are working night and day. I see this every day/night with my wife. She is torn between being with the children and working to save the company. Do they make bad decisions? Yes like everyone else. But they are pretty much all good people working very hard. It is so easy to pit people against each other. Human nature.
Rocky
The executives getting 100 million $ retirements in the oil companies -- as I was told by a friend who called to check on something yesterday -- after their huge profits is what the public should be outraged by. But the public is powerless to change how companies are run.
Day by day we're told the Japanese do it so much better. We all should not buy American and buy only Japanese or Korean, etc. The question then is, "WWJD? What would Japan Do with the executive pay and retirement of exeuctive problem as seen here in this country?
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Rocky
Rocky
Rocky
Japan's auto industry marked a major milestone this week with the report that Japanese manufacturers built 10.9 million vehicles overseas in the year ended March 31, slightly more than they did at home.
Asked whether Japan needs more immigrants to alleviate its demographic dilemma, the union representatives suggested that the insular society is grappling with the issue.
"Last year, the Japanese auto workers union discussed accepting foreign workers," said Masanori Takahashi, assistant director of the Confederation of Japan Automobile Workers' Unions' organization and political affairs bureau. "We concluded we have to be prudent. We can't just bring them in."
We worry about who will pay pensions, and rising health care costs."
Uhhh, we will.
http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060802/AUTO02/608020429/1148- /AUTO01
Wow. That's a closed society we want to be sending all out money to by buying their cars? They are really open, there aren't they? They don't want American oranges, don't want American beef, but they want American dollars.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Rocky
And some folks think we should even build factories for them and thank them for letting us give them our money to take back home to the parent company's location.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Rocky
It's not a matter of how well they'd sell but it's the principal. It would I agree it would be a hard sell for the domestics, because of tariffs. If they want to tariff our goods, then we should do the exact same to there's. It'd B.S. how they've been able to get away with it after all these years.
Rocky
I do agree with [non-permissible content removed] for tat tariffs...but at the same time I think we should be looking at China much more than Japan...
Even WITHOUT tarriffs, what Ford/GM/DCX produced vehicle has a chance to sell large numbers (I'm not talking about the 1 in 100,000 Japanese that wants a loaded GMC Denali pickup truck).
Principal schricipal. What auto product would the domestics use to 'compete' with in Japan?
Toyota Motor, the biggest seller of luxury cars in the United States, will introduce its Lexus brand in Japan in August, competing in its home market against DaimlerChrysler and Bayerische Motoren Werke.
Luxury cars are the most profitable and fastest-growing segment of Japan's car market. The nation's recovery from a 13-year economic slump helped raise luxury car sales by an estimated 57 percent in 2004, compared with total vehicle sales that were little changed from 2003
Nevertheless, Toyota, Honda and Nissan will have to convince customers that homegrown brands have enough quality, luxury content and cachet to compete with imports